Dr. Peter McCullough

There's a contagious virus going around. It's mild for the vast majority of individuals. For people with medical problems, elderly, serious people, they should, you know, be on an early treatment protocol. Early on, it's ready to go. It's ready to go. They've made it. People like me weren't paying attention. There's no nanobots or nanotechnology in this. There are no pharmacokinetics studies to show where it goes in the body and what happens. The spike protein is the pathogenic part of the virus. How do I get it off the surface of the virus but leave the virus intact? The answer is mitokinase.

Dave Asprey

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Dr. Peter McCullough

Well, thanks for having me.

Dave Asprey

What did I say wrong in that introduction?

Dr. Peter McCullough

No, I think it's fine. Listen, we all have different pathways. It's been six years. I'm glad I finally made it on your show.

Dave Asprey

Yeah, we got to have dinner together at the Texans for Medical Freedom thing and really connected. So I would have. In fact, I don't know why we haven't had you on before because certainly I've been following Your work. I think sometimes just getting the universe to align can take a little bit of. A little bit of work, but we did it.

Dr. Peter McCullough

You know, Dave, you know, most podcasters were really late on the pandemic. You know, it's a short. It's a shortcoming of independent media and certainly mainstream media. But, you know, 2020, it became hot and heavy and podcasters were absent. They were basically absent during 2020, you know, when I went on Joe Rogan and people made a big deal out of that. That was December of 2021.

Dave Asprey

Oh, yeah.

Dr. Peter McCullough

He was like two years late.

Dave Asprey

I did a few episodes on it and found out that the only place I wasn't getting that censored was on the podcast. But all of my social Media, I lost 95% of my following. And I said, I'm just going to keep doing it. I think the only reason they didn't turn off my accounts entirely is that I used a woke shield. I used to. I told everyone, I said, hey, guys, I realize I'm not living my true identity. I'm coming out of the closet. And some of my friends will let you stick anything in them with no standards, and others will never let you stick anything in them with no science. And neither of those is my true identity. So I'm coming out as Vi Curious, Vaccine industry curious. And I think that was just enough shade of woke. We can't cancel his identity. I don't even know what's going on with these clowns.

Dr. Peter McCullough

That's pretty skilled, you know, in. In 2020, though, there were no vaccines till the very end. They were released December 10th of 2020. So 2020 was all about understanding spread of the virus, what was going on, how serious was it really, and early treatment. Now, can you imagine if the public health messaging was, listen, there's a contagious virus going around. It's mild for the vast majority of individuals. For people with medical problems, elderly, serious people, they should be on an early treatment protocol early on. And if that would have been the sum total of the messaging. And that means no lockdowns, no masks, no hand sanitizer, nothing else going on, no businesses closed, all we would need to do is just update what people really at risk should do. Let the doctors, nursing homes, have a. A protocol. That's what essentially I was saying in 2020. So, you know, of interest, I have thousands upon thousands of media appearances, Thousands. I was just on national TV last night, prime time. And, you know, when I go back through all those media clips, I don't find regrettable statements. I've never told America or the world they should be wearing masks or hand sanitizing the crud out of everything or sanitizing their pizza boxes. And I never told anybody to take a vaccine.

Dave Asprey

Do you think that there might be a use case for some vaccines?

Dr. Peter McCullough

Well, boy, that's a broad question. We recently published a book, it's a New York Times bestseller within a month. Vaccines, Mythology, Ideology and reality. And you know, a big part of that is mythology and that is when, you know, vaccines would first work. We had to start somewhere. We started with Cotton Mather 1721 in Boston. And you know, in those times, the people working with vaccines didn't even know what caused the diseases.

Dave Asprey

Exactly.

Dr. Peter McCullough

I mean, you can imagine no microscopes, then there's no way to figure things out. So it had to have been born in mythology. But the reason why we point out Cotton Mather, who was an important intellectual at the time in New England. He was followed by Ben Franklin and others. But Cotton Mather was also a puritan minister who was a consultant in the Salem witchcraft trials. Well, he was working with Dr. Boylston, the very first kind of adoption of a vaccine technique called variolation. And Cotton Mather came out and said, he proclaimed in the town square, this was a gift from God. So that points out that a lot of this work in vaccinology has to do with an ideology. Basically these were early biohackers, if you will, Dave. They were trying to improve upon God's creation. So we don't know who the first biohacker was. Maybe it was Cotton Mather or Paracelsus or Edward Jenner when we get to the uk. But the point is there is some reality, and that's the point of your question is what are some of the reality of the vaccines? And as we look through things critically, I think some vaccines did lower case counts, at least temporarily. You could say that for chickenpox and measles. But this, you know, these broad statements in public health that vaccines are one of the greatest achievements of public health, or that vaccines reduce mortality or the converse of this, Dave, that vaccine hesitancy is a disease, it's a mental disease, and in fact vaccine hesitancy is a threat to public health. We found all of that in our research.

Dave Asprey

The idea of vaccine hesitancy being a medical disorder is so mind bending, it's like a Mobius strip inside of illogic. I can't wrap my head around that one no matter how hard I try. Either the person who says that has an IQ of 70, or they're entirely programmed or they are actively trying to do evil. There's no other excuse for any human to say that.

Dr. Peter McCullough

Dave, I think there's another explanation. I think they're practicing a religious belief. It's an ideology. You know, this came to really practical applications. You know, in Canada, those who espouse some resistance to taking a vaccine, they were referred for psychiatric evaluation. Wow. You know, that was during the pandemic. If we were to, you know, dial it Back to, to 1890, we had parents being put in jail in New England and Canada, the uk, if their parent, if they did not allow their children to get a smallpox vaccine. Now, smallpox vaccines in 1890, let me tell you what you know, they were developed from fluids from animals or another humans. There's no way they could have been dose adjusted. There's no way they could have. And sterilized and free of strep and staph and tetanus and syphilis. And of course, they were given in grossly unsterile techniques. So they caused infections, local infections, sometimes systemic infections, and they may have not have done anything with respect to smallpox. No one knew. But the point is, the religious fervor was so great, driven out of fear of infectious diseases and this unbridled enthusiasm for this, that they put parents in jail. So, you know, we don't have to go, you know, and think something changed radically during the COVID pandemic. It was just everything came out in global fear.

Dave Asprey

Thank you for that. I have. I was one class short of getting a degree in religious studies alongside my computer science education. And I remember studying with a rabbinical scholar. And he said, what do all these death cults have in common? We studied Jim Jones and Hamas and all these people. And I said, well, they're all stupid and illogical. And he laughed and he said, no, he said, they're entirely logical if you believe what they believe. So if you had their framing on the world, then what they're doing is completely logical. So maybe all the people who say vaccine hesitancy is a disease, they just have a framing on the world that is so fundamentally disconnected from the way things work that to them, that's logical versus just evil. But I guess that's where we have free speech. And in the U.S. that's also why we have the Second Amendment, so you can protect the First Amendment when people try to take it away. I think that's why the founding fathers put them in that order, because what I saw there, well, that's not going to be repeated. That's why I live in Texas now.

Dr. Peter McCullough

You know where that came out, Dave, I don't know if you saw the movie Nuremberg. Did you see that?

Podcast Announcer

Yes.

Dr. Peter McCullough

Yeah, right. So remember the American psychiatrist who was played by a great actor. What's his name? Young guy? Maybe one of your tech people can look it up real quick. Yeah, but I remember that, that Goring who was in charge of the Luftwaffe, he was played by Russell Crowe, who I think did a great job. But the conclusion of the psychiatrist who interviewed certainly has Goring and many who are involved in the Nazi crimes against Jews and non Jews, that his conclusion was, they're just normal people. They're not insane. They're not insane. They just had this common belief. And so people want to quickly jump to insanity. But I think your analysis is right on.

Dave Asprey

Well, one of the highest values in the biohacking movement is being unprogrammable, being hard to trigger. People can try to feed you. There's bizarre worldviews that might include leeches burning at the stake, vaccines made out of pus or masks and hand sanitizer. When they make no sense and you look at it and go, that makes no sense. And you just remain calm. And so we're working to build a world where we have a little bit more peace, calmness and awareness. So when people tell you to do something that's on its face absurd and stupid, that maybe next time people listening just will say, no, thanks, that's.

Dr. Peter McCullough

Well, I think I. I think especially when things violate common sense. So, you know, I think I went on primetime news a couple hundred times during the pandemic, and I started in 2020. One of the times I was asked to go on Ingram Engel, Laura Ingram, Fox News. And at that time, she had the prime time spot. So they showed a, a teenage girl who was running a thousand meter race. And, you know, a thousand meters, you're going as hard as you can for two laps around the track, right? And her dad was there and all the kids were made to wear masks and they're outside somewhere in Iowa, I think. And this poor girl just collapses at about, you know, 50 yards before the finish and destroys her shoulder. She's a total mess. And I can tell you as a doctor, at that level, the key is minute ventilation. Minute ventilation is how much air can be moved in a minute. You really need big MV in order to haul in that 100 meters. Anyhow, the mask inhibits this and she collapses. And Laura Ingram says, Dr. McCullough, is this reasonable? And so the idea is, of course it's not reasonable. In my first book, Courage to Face COVID 19, we open with a scene where there's a man in San Francisco and he's so fed up with these 2020 lockdowns and restrictions and MAs, he gets on his paddle board with his dog and he paddles way out into the bay of San Francisco and he finally lets that mask down and takes a breath of fresh air. Then immediately the coast guard speed out there to arrest him. Yeah,

Dave Asprey

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Dr. Peter McCullough

So, Dave, you think we had it bad in the United States? I had a chance to tour Australia.

Dave Asprey

Oh, they got it brutal.

Dr. Peter McCullough

So that goes to show you that there must be a form of a mind virus, if you will, a group thing, some type of programmable virus that spreads from mind. It was the same illness, it was the same everywhere. And it was mild for the vast majority of individuals. I had it. It was, you know, like a common cold or a flu. And yet in Australia, couldn't leave your house for two years. And if you had it, then there was this five kilometer radius, as if you would obey a five kilometer radius. And so these observations are mind boggling. You think about it, it's mind boggling that humans can do this. And it's even more mind boggling that reasonable people, when they write their books, have these incredible omissions. And I'll give you an example. Scott Atlas. Have you had Scott on your show?

Dave Asprey

I don't think so, no.

Dr. Peter McCullough

You should have him. So I was at Baylor at the time. Scott was at Stanford, still is. And we were selected by the Hill, which is the journal read by the House, the Senate and the White House. It's kind of the political journal. And they said, listen, will you write op eds informing us each month about what's going on in the pandemic? So I said, sure. He was covering masks and lockdowns, which I really didn't think were really where it was at. I was interested in how this virus was spreading, why it was hitting people in these kind of vertical, dense urban areas, and then of course, how to prevent it and treat it. And this is before the vaccines and as we kind of rounded things out, you know, the last op ed I wrote, Dave, the title of it was the Great gamble of the COVID 19 vaccine. Now, this is in August of 2020. This is four months before they come out. I said, listen, this is not good. So you're talking to the only person who put it in writing big time. You can go on the website right now and see it. Who question this ahead of time. So anyhow, Scott is chosen to go into the White House and advise Trump, and he's with Fauci and Berks every day. So, you know, I didn't get the nod. You know, that's fine. I would have had a different, you know, emphasis. But I read Scott's book. I read every word of its book. Hey, man. With the president, like for nine months, they never discussed treating COVID patients. Never.

Podcast Announcer

Wow.

Dr. Peter McCullough

Never. Now listen, this is Trump actually gets treated for Covid. He gets a version of the McCullough protocol that became published, most widely used protocol in the world. So he gets monoclonal antibodies. They were in my protocol. He had pretreatment with hydroxychloroquine. Then he gets corticosteroids. I had all this laid out for the scientific public in the peer reviewed literature in August of 2020 in the American Journal of Medicine, widely read journals and actually still one of the most cited papers in that journal. So you'd think Trump and Atlas at one point in time said, listen, a lot of people are dying. Maybe we should focus on treating them before they end up in the hospital and die.

Dave Asprey

Shocking, isn't it?

Dr. Peter McCullough

So that's Trump, Fauci, Berks, Atlas. So this we talked about infectious groupthink. There's actually an infectious group. Think oblivion. There's an oblivion just being oblivious to something obvious. Like, we should do better. If anybody's going to die of this illness, we should look at how to treat them very early to avoid hospitalization and death.

Dave Asprey

It's kind of funny because, you know, having been married to a physician for a long time, and I'm in the medical community but not a physician, every doctor I know learned in medical school how to treat non specific viruses in the respiratory tract. You don't have to know what it is in order to do things. Like you said, corticosteroids and all, but they started preventing people from doing things that might work. What were the forces behind the pharmacies blocking ivermectin and hydroxychloroquine?

Dr. Peter McCullough

This was a fascinating tale. We outlined it in my book courage to face COVID 19. How this happened, do you know? Early on there was widespread acceptance of the first antiviral retried hydroxychloroquine. Widespread acceptance. There was a huge surge in use. The FDA didn't know what to do, so they said, well, let's emergency use, authorize it so we can use hydroxychloroquine in Covid. There was a press briefing in March of 2020 where Fauci and Trump are up there. And they asked Fauci point blank, if you had a patient right in front of you with COVID would You treat him with hydroxychloroquine, and Fauci goes, yes, he goes. Preferably in a protocol. Wow, that's fine. So there was widespread acceptance, but then something changed. As we marched through 2020, there was some fraudulent papers published suggesting hydroxychloroquine did harm. Now, this is a drug we've used for centuries. It's a natural product from the Cicona tree. It's been used in decades as a prescription medicine. I've used it extensively in systemic lupus and rheumatoid arthritis. It's used for malaria prevention. It's safe in pregnancy. It's one of the best drugs we have proven safe in pregnancy. And yet, by the summer of 2020, even after a Henry Ford Hospital study came out showing hydroxychloroquine reduced inpatient mortality. I mean, in 1200 patients. Mortality signal. Boy, we should have run with that. That was before introduction of remdesivir or inpatient steroids or anything else. What happened is the FDA said, no, don't use it. And then other organizations followed, and before we knew it, the Board of Pharmacy in 2020 came out and said, you know, we're not dispensing hydroxychloroquine for this reason. There was all kinds of excuses. Well, there won't be enough for people with other problems. This is in 2020.

Dave Asprey

It can't have been the FDA and the board of Pharmacy. It was a specific human being at the FDA who led this and a specific human at the Board of Pharmacy. Do we know who they are? Are we holding them accountable?

Dr. Peter McCullough

Yeah, at the fda. The person who signed that was Stephen Hahn, who's a hematologist, oncologist, who, by the way, after he left the fda, joined the venture capital firm behind Moderna. Just so you can understand the connections, but listen to this. Hydroxychloroquine. We haven't even gotten to the real juice yet with hydroxychloroquine. A billionaire. Like, a super billionaire. Like, way bigger than Trump in Australia's Clive Palmer. And Clive sees this. He says, okay, I got this. And he buys enough hydroxychloroquine to treat every single Australian. And Australia. Yeah, Australia's got the population of Texas. Yeah. So he buys enough, he's got this stockpile. The Australian authorities find out about it, they seize the hydroxychloroquine, and they destroy it.

Dave Asprey

Wow. And we know which authority led that. Like, is he in jail right now?

Dr. Peter McCullough

He's not in jail, but Clive can tell the story. Of what? You know, agents in Australia seized his hydroxychloroquine and destroyed it. And, you know, I held a few calls early on on this app called Clubhouse. Have you ever heard of that?

Dave Asprey

Clubhouse. I remember that. Yeah.

Dr. Peter McCullough

Where people kind of call in. And there were some doctors in Africa, and we were talking about our early experience with hydroxychloroquine. I mean, when I had Covid in 2020, I took hydroxychloroquine in an FDA protocol, and I followed the rules on this. And anyhow, some of the doctors told me, disturbingly, they said, you know, there seems to be some type of bad guys raiding our pharmacies at night and destroying the hydroxychloroquine. Yeah, they're burning it. And, you know, mysteriously, in 2020, in Asia, the second largest facility producing hydroxychloroquine burned down.

Dave Asprey

We need to investigate this stuff. Like, is this, like, the black arm of big Pharma or is something, you know, the. The people trying to depopulate the earth, like Gates and all. I. I do not understand.

Dr. Peter McCullough

Well, so in the. So in 2020, there was an absolute physical war on hydroxychloroquine. And when I got. By the time I got to the US Senate November 19, 2020, and I'm the lead witness, so I'm telling America for the first time that we can treat COVID 19 at home successfully and had all the data, the best I could put it together, peer reviewed, published. I followed all the rules. I pointed out academic fraud. And I held up a paper from the Mayo Clinic declaring that hydroxychloroquine is dangerous for the heart and that it. And there's a drawing in the paper, a fictitious drawing, saying that hydroxychloroquine causes scars in the heart and cardiac arrhythmias. And I said, this is fraud. Yeah. I wrote a letter to the editor, which was published by the journal. I said, this is fraud. You can't. These were papers that were intentionally written to frighten anybody.

Dave Asprey

Who wrote that paper. Do we know what university they're at? Like, are there people outside his office?

Dr. Peter McCullough

Yeah, they're at the Mayo Clinic. It's very well documented. It was academic.

Dave Asprey

And the Mayo Clinic still employs this person?

Dr. Peter McCullough

I imagine they do. Wow.

Dave Asprey

Do we know that person's name?

Dr. Peter McCullough

Yeah, it's on the paper. I can, you know, look it up. I was very involved in that six years ago. But listen, that was 2020. That was new. Nothing compared to the drug that really had some juice. And that was Ivermectin.

Dave Asprey

Let's talk about the sheep dewormer. By the way, I am a sheep farmer and I had it in my shed for the sheep. So there we go.

Dr. Peter McCullough

Well, you know, ivermectin derived from an organism in the soil in Japan. It's an interesting theme here that the drugs we use were derived from natural products. Right. So. Right. So none of these are petro. Petrochemical stuff. This is all natural stuff. So ivermectin, an antiparasitic drug. I've used it for scabies in various forms of parasitic infections in the past. It's available orally and topically. It's a human drug, also a veterinary drug. Early on, when I published the McCullough Protocol in August of 2020, one of our infectious disease doctors from Detroit, John McKinnon, wrote me. He said, listen, I'm on work down in Honduras and we're using ivermectin. He goes, it's working. It works more rapidly than hydroxychloroquine more extensively. This stuff is the stuff. And he goes, we just don't have enough to get it in the McCullough protocol. But sure enough, within four months we did. And I published a second version of the protocol, really frontlining Ivermectin. It's just a matter of dose and how we give it. Initially we thought maybe we give it every other day and then ultimately daily and. And then. So a guy your size, Dave, I know your size. You probably, according to the protocol, would take 36 or 48 milligrams a day. For my size, it'd be 36 milligrams a day. And, you know, the current version of what I do, it's, you know, five days. But we can extend it to 30 days for acute infection. And there are dozens of studies demonstrating that it reduces the intensity and severity of the illness. It works well in multidrug protocols, and there very importantly, it reduces mortality. I mentioned hydroxychloroquine in the Henry Ford study, reducing mortality. Well, I'll cite another paper, and that's by Rochester and colleagues, published in the pulmonary journal chest in 2020. Wow. Where patients is a prospective comparative study, very high quality. Those who received ivermectin and it was continued through the hospital stay, had a 50% reduction in mortality. 50%. These are sick people in the hospital.

Dave Asprey

That sounds dangerous, Peter. It was only 50%. We should ban in.

Dr. Peter McCullough

But no, think about. How can people say that, Dave, think about this. So hydroxychloroquine, we had mortality reduction in the Henry Ford study not as prominent and a little bit more difficult to use. Now we have Ivermectin, safer than acetaminophen or Tylenol, I can tell you, from 2020 forward. But once had the icon study, it actually had a name to it. Every single person admitted to the hospital should have had Ivermectin. I think, ideally treated high risk patients. Not everybody, but high risk patients should have had it on day one. So here we go. We have these two generic drugs, safe, widely available, and one of the best titled books is by Pierre Kory. And the title of this book is the War on Ivermectin. So. So, Dave, it became a war. So the FDA launched an entirely fraudulent information campaign, saying it's only a veterinary product, and it made the late night TV circuit. And, you know, remember, you know, die in peace, wheezy. Remember? Who was it, Jimmy Kim, who said

Dave Asprey

that this was organized by a PR agency for Big Pharma, presumably?

Dr. Peter McCullough

It had to. It had to. And it keeps going. You know, the American Medical association, summer of 2021, officially comes out with a campaign to abolish the use of ivermectin. Abolish it? Abolish it. Why would you want to abolish the use of anything? It was the most direct frontal assault on a pharmaceutical I've ever witnessed. We've never witnessed. I mean, why don't they want to abolish the use of recreational fentanyl with as much zeal as Ivermectin? I mean, this was extraordinary. So finally, three heroic doctors. Robert Apter, an ER doctor from Arizona, Dr. Mary Talibodin from Houston, and Dr. Paul Merrick from Virginia, they actually sue the FDA. They cobble together the resources, they get attorneys, they sue the fda. So listen, you are intentionally misinforming the public. And they bring this out in court, and the lawyers for the FDA finally fold and say, you know what? We're pulling down our fraudulent material in Ivermectin. Wow. And, Dave, it doesn't stop there. Those were two oral drugs, and doctors prescribed them. But what about simple biohacks, Dave? So what about biohacks that came under attack? So listen, in 2020, early 2020, the Federal Trade Commission comes out with its Covid misinformation policy. Okay, this is early in 2020.

Dave Asprey

Oh, I got targeted.

Dr. Peter McCullough

Yep. Okay. Any company making any product out there, you are, you know, potentially under attack. Federal fines and pursuit by the Federal Trade Commission. So who comes under attack? Nate Jones, the CEO of The Clear company.

Podcast Announcer

Yes.

Dave Asprey

And he fought back. I used that stuff for years.

Dr. Peter McCullough

So Nate's doing research. He's very evidence based. He has lots of data, you know, examining what nasal sprays and gargles do, particularly nasal sprays, those based with xylitol and other ones, saline and iodine. And he's publishing the data on the Clear website. He's not making pharmaceutical claims, he's just putting the data out there. He gets sued. But when the lawsuit comes down, it says the Federal Trade Commission is suing Nate Jones personally and the Clear Corporation.

Dave Asprey

Oh, that's ridiculous.

Dr. Peter McCullough

Millions of dollars. Millions of dollars. So they're going to take him to town personally for violating this policy that they constructed. And Nate stands up. This takes years and years of litigation. Millions and millions of dollars out of his own pocket. And then he prevails. In the end, when Trump comes into power, they fire two people at the top of the Federal Trade Commission. And Nate gets a letter saying, we're dropping everything.

Dave Asprey

I'm glad you mentioned the Federal Trade Commission, ftc, the most famous probably because of Eminem. Ftc, you know me, the line. But they have far more power than the FDA over a company because they can say, you misinformed people, you lied and you made money on it, refund everything so they can shut a company down and destroy it more effectively than the FDA can. And I've always thought the FTC was the good guys because as long as they're not being weaponized like that, they stop companies from lying and companies shouldn't be allowed to lie. But, man, watching the FTC be misused that way was kind of tragic.

Dr. Peter McCullough

Well, Dave, misinformation policies popped up everywhere. Now it makes me, you know, evaluate the word misinformation. Have you looked at this critically yourself?

Dave Asprey

Very much so. In fact, it's a word I, I don't use because it's got so much ego and arrogance in it. So, you know, the other person can be wrong and you might know that they are lying because they have this fact and you know they have this fact. You can prove lying sometimes, but there's wrong in lying and that's it. Misinformation is, oh, I know better you don't know. And it's a gross woke violation of basic cognitive sovereignty. So what's your take on it?

Dr. Peter McCullough

Actually, that's a very good analysis. You know, it entered the English literature around mid 19th century or so, and it was used actually in partisan politics occasionally. And then it was used extensively in World War II by Goebbels who?

Dave Asprey

Disinformation again, misinformation by garbles. That's interesting.

Dr. Peter McCullough

Yeah, misinformation. It was used locally. Who, you know, anybody who the Brown Shirts really wanted to go after, they said, well, you're spreading misinformation.

Dave Asprey

Oh, it's a tool of. Of tyrants.

Dr. Peter McCullough

That makes sense. Right. And then, interestingly, it became Word of the Year. I think there's some of these organizations. It became Word of the Year. But listen to this. In 2018. 2018, before the pandemic. So this was teed up. And then by 2020, Dave, it becomes an official mesh term. A mesh term in the National Library of Medicine as a scientific term.

Dave Asprey

It cannot be a scientific term. That's insane.

Dr. Peter McCullough

It is, Dave. I've been following this. It's a scientific term. Wow.

Dave Asprey

Science is dead if that's a scientific term.

Dr. Peter McCullough

This information is one of six propaganda terms people really should. Should understand. So it is for sure. Propaganda. Propaganda is when someone wants to gain leverage over someone else. So immediately, whoever makes the allegation of misinformation has already grabbed a moral superiority and put the other person at a disadvantage. Right. So when I first Testified in the US Senate, November 19, 2020, the Minority Chairman, what they called the ranking chairman, was Gary Peters, Michigan. Someone who, by the way, I voted for in the past when I lived in Michigan and before I. And I was the lead witness. And I'll never forget, he was wearing a black mask. He was speaking through the mask. It was hard to understand the mask and the microphone. He said, what you're about to hear, you know, from me, was misinformation without

Dave Asprey

even knowing what it was.

Dr. Peter McCullough

Yeah, that's before a word ever came out of my mouth. And, you know, five years later, I'm testifying in the Senate now, the ranking member is. The ranking chairman is Richard Blumenthal. He did the same thing, but five years later. Now I'm sharpened up. What did I say? I said, you just used a propaganda technique to gain leverage over me. And I said, don't you ever do that as a public servant again.

Dave Asprey

Wow.

Dr. Peter McCullough

I admonished him. But let me get to these six important terms. So misinformation. And, Dave, we haven't talked about this before, but I don't use it either. I don't use propaganda on people. So misinformation is one of them. Because no one holds agency over the truth. There are always emerging observations in multiple points of view, and the only way we make progress is to discuss it. We can never use Misinformation. So the next one is disinformation. Now, that one was Stalin's. Stalin disinformation as that in the Soviet era that really grew strong post World War II. The next one is mal information, and these all have slight variations on how the information is used. The next one is anti science. Have you heard that one?

Dave Asprey

I love that one. And the people saying it are never scientists.

Dr. Peter McCullough

Well, there you go. You know who's the main person? This is in the title of his books. He had an entire lecture series on this. Peter Hotez from Houston. He's a pediatric vaccinologist who. Now he is mired in a sex scandal with some other scientist. And people look at Hotez, they can't even believe that that could seem possible. But that's Peter Hotez, anti science. Essentially, what Hotez is saying is, anybody who doesn't agree with me is anti science. So again, he's trying to. It's a moral superiority approach. And then the. The fifth one is anti vaxxer. You're an anti vaxxer. Like, you're a pro vaxxer. Anti vaxxer. That's like saying you're an anti penicillin. Pro penicillin. Or you're anti tricyclic antidepressant.

Dave Asprey

I called someone a vaccine slut when they called me an anti vaxxer. Yeah, I mean, they didn't like that.

Dr. Peter McCullough

It's like, wait, wait. You know, vaccines are like any other biopharmaceutical product. They're worthy of discussion. So. And then the last one. And. And Dave, you're gonna. I guarantee this one's come up for you conspiracy theorists.

Dave Asprey

Oh, I love that one.

Dr. Peter McCullough

Yeah. So those are the six propaganda terms. I don't use them making any allegations in any way, but I'll tell you how far it's gone. There is a academic misinformation index that's been published by Oxford and other highly esteemed academic organizations. And so what they'll do is they'll review something like maybe one of my papers or one of your papers and say, well, this scored high on a misinformation index. And so it's a way of now judging, demeaning, deprecating, then ultimately devaluing somebody else or importantly, devaluating ideas or observations. Now, that's scary, because observations are simply that. They're observations. Can you imagine if we applied misinformation, that term, to diminish the importance of a safety problem? Like with COVID vaccines?

Dave Asprey

You know, I saw a lot of misinformation about seatbelts saving lives back in the 70s. Actually, I was too young to know anything about that, but it's the same idea. Like you can use it to anything. We know seatbelts work at this point. Most of the time it's better to wear one than not. But you could say those words about anything. So I'm glad you brought this up because this comes down to cognitive sovereignty for people. You should know if someone's using these terms and the best thing to do is to pause and say, are you okay? You know, you're using a Nazi era term and like I thought, better than you. So the moral high ground game is really fun to play because you just, oh, my gosh. Using a Nazi term. And of course, you can't do that if you're on that. And those are Nazi terms. They were made up by couples. So once you say that, you're going to throw them on their back heel and say, I am personally triggered and I feel victimized by this. In fact, my IL6 levels are going up. Do you have any ivermectin? Boom, we're done.

Dr. Peter McCullough

Hey, Dave, have you ever heard of this conservative radio host, Hugh Hewitt?

Dave Asprey

I haven't.

Dr. Peter McCullough

Yeah, well, I guess he's not conservative. I guess he'd be considered more on the left. But anyhow, early in 2020, I was invited to go on his show and I could tell he was, you know, in attack mode from the very beginning.

Dave Asprey

I love that.

Dr. Peter McCullough

So anyhow, he said, Dr. McCullough, what would you say if a patient listened to you didn't take a COVID vaccine and they died of COVID Isn't that on you, doctor, Isn't that on you? This idea of, you know, this kind

Dave Asprey

of, this moral authority because patients never die with doctors.

Dr. Peter McCullough

No, well, what I said with Hugh is, I said, well, Hugh, what if they listen to you and they take the vaccine and they die right in the vaccine center of a cardiac arrest? Isn't that more directly on you? Because, Covid, we can always treat it. We can manage it. You know, we can't stop this vaccine. Deaths and thousands were occurring. And he went nuts. Absolutely nuts.

Dave Asprey

What do you do to start yelling?

Dr. Peter McCullough

Well, yeah, he started yelling. He said, he goes, well, you know, I'm an attorney and you know, this, this and that, and under in a court of law. And I said, listen, if this was a court of a law council, you would have had a bad day.

Dave Asprey

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Dr. Peter McCullough

I have to tell you, I think, you know, as I came out of the womb when I was born, I've always been a supremely confident person. I mean, very confident. And I had a chance in my life. It was a real fun dinner. I had a chance to meet Larry King one time before he died, and I asked him the same question. I said, you've interviewed Brezhnev. You've interviewed so many, you know, really big people in the world. He said the same thing. He said, I'm just naturally confident. I'm naturally confident. I have very good clinical instincts and I trust my instincts. I'm rarely wrong. And when I'm wrong, I recognize it and correct course. And when we come to this pandemic, like I say, I've logged as many media hours as anybody in human history by a mile and review the tapes, find the errors, and I cite the literature every time, and I'm very careful. I want to cite some literature, by the way, on your interests in biohacking and longevity. But the point is I prepare. I think I work harder than most. And when I saw this pandemic coming, I remember I went on with Tucker Carlson. And by the way, I went on Tucker Carlson's long program about seven months before Rogan to give you an idea of who was ahead on this. And Tucker asked me, he goes, you know why you? And I said, tucker, I said, listen, if it's not me right now in this pandemic, I don't think anybody can do this. I don't think anybody can stand up and find their way through this right now. That's the reason why I published the first multi drug treatment protocol in the world in history that was far and away the most complex. It had risk stratification, when to use oxygen at home, when to use nutraceuticals and supplements, how to integrate it all. And that's the reason why it became the most widely used protocol in the world. For COVID 19. It's been, and people use different principles of it, but it's been credited with saving tens of millions of lives and sparing hundreds of millions of hospitalizations. You're looking at the originator of it.

Dave Asprey

It's heroic, like Nobel Medical Prize kind of thing.

Dr. Peter McCullough

Well, I've been first, the first to publish an approach on how to detoxify from the spike protein, from the infection and from the vaccine. And what I told Tucker Carlson at the time said, listen, I'll step aside when Harvard publishes their protocols or Mayo Clinic publishes their protocols. We're six years into this. And you know, other organizations, academic institutions, they have no answer for this. Six years. There's been plenty of time.

Dave Asprey

It's like Lyme disease or toxic mold. Just take them 25 years to pay attention to it. Well, meanwhile, other doctors know the arrogance for that. All right, give me the rundown. The spike protein, the nutshell. I know you've got the protocols on your website and your website is go

Dr. Peter McCullough

to TWC Health, that's the wellness Company website. We've got a great guide because this comes up all the time. People say, what's the rundown? The direct link to the guide is myfreespikeguide.com myfreight and it's a PDF and it's about six pages long and it just outlines, it's referenced, you know, and this came up this week. In fact, I was on primetime news last night, this week, because more and more capitulation on the spike protein being manipulated in the Wuhan Institute of Virology. So if we take a virus, the round part of the virus has the little spikes on the surface, thousands of them. And before the pandemic, it was known that human beings could get infected with about four of these coronaviruses, all of them a very mild, you know, head cold, no Systemic invasion. So prior to the pandemic, there never was human, you know, coronavirus, pneumonia and death. It didn't happen. The only thing that was shown early on, this is interesting about 1996, Dr. Ralph Baric at the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill, who's recently, by the way, been put on probation and either said to be retiring early or, you know, taken quickly out of public life. Ralph Barrick in the journal that, you know, I was a senior associate editor of the American Journal of Cardiology, that one of the oldest journals in cardiology that was edited here in Dallas, published a paper where he flooded the hearts of, of rabbits with this human beta coronavirus. Flooded it with like tons of particles and was able to get myocarditis, was able to get heart inflammation. Wow, I thought that was interesting. So Baric knew if you got enough of this spike protein on the surface of the virus, it could irritate the heart. That was known in 1996.

Dave Asprey

Oh, wow.

Dr. Peter McCullough

Well, fast forward as we put things together. It appears that a Collaboration started probably 2012 or so with Barrick, the Ecohealth Alliance. Peter Dasick, peripherally connected was Stefan Banzel at Moderna. Remember Stefan Bainzel? Prior to Moderna, he was the CEO of Bauermar U. Somebody who really had no CEO experience. Before that he was a pharmaceutical rep in Belgium. But yeah, so become CEO of Baumer U. He's got that cool accent. You know, one thing Dave, you and I miss is we miss that kind of spooky, kind of Western European accent.

Dave Asprey

Like the evil battle.

Dr. Peter McCullough

Yeah, like Borla Bainzel, this kind of, you know, the science and these guys go on and on. So, yeah, Bainzel, obviously a guy who doesn't kind of deserve all this. He leaves biomeru, which is a big lab company. It's like Abbott Labs in the United States. And he joins a one person company in Cambridge, Moderna. What you don't leave a conglomerate. Well, what was Bain Zao doing when he was at Bayomaru? Well, Jacques Chirac at the time was working with the Chinese and Chirac assigned the contractor work to Biomar Yu to build the biosecurity annex at the Wuhan Institute of Virology. So Bainzel knew the Chinese lab really well because his company was building the annex that was going to be BSL level four. You know, Barrick and Peter Dasak. Dasak's at the EcoHealth alliance, this is an NGO which shuttles the plans from the United States to China. Barrick's at UNC Chapel Hill. He's the most knowledgeable guy in coronaviruses. They start working with the Chinese. They take a human beta coronavirus, they start playing around with the spike protein. They realize it can't do much. They start playing around with the spike protein, particularly getting virulence sequences from bat coronaviruses. And there's a lot of bats in caves in China. And once you get a bat coronavirus spike protein on the human beta coronavirus, they were able to get that to lock into a human ACE2 receptor on the surface of respiratory epithelial cells, lock in, invade and then actually it turns out the S2 segment of the spike protein is sacrificed at the receptor, but the virus injects itself into the body. Then we're off to the races for damage in the human body. This is all published in 2015. So it takes two or three years to do the experiments. It's published in 2015 in Nature Medicine and then a follow up paper a month later in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. Now these are well basic science journal, well read. These are well read. And the title of these papers, they call the virus a SARS like COV coronavirus. Wuhan Institute of Virology 1 WIV 1. That's the name of this virus poised for human emergence. They said, listen, it's ready to go. It's ready to go. They've made it. So I can tell you this is the announcement to the world in 2015, 2016, that they have created primordial SARS COV2. Wow. What's the shortcoming? People like me weren't paying attention. Many people all over weren't paying attention. You weren't reading it. You weren't broadcasting this on your shows. I'm in cardiology. I was studying heart and kidney function. It wasn't my deal. No one mentions this. No one. Nobody in Children's Health Defense, no one anywhere else even mentioned everyone's asleep at the switch. So this goes on. And in the papers it states this is gain of function research. It says right in the paper it uses the word gain of function. It says right in the papers it says this is funded by the National Institute of Allergy Immunology Infectious Diseases. That's Anthony Fauci's branch. In the first paper, they have no Chinese authors. They just thank the Chinese for using the lab. The second paper, they have Chinese authors. Okay, now, so this is occurring, this announcement is occurring and there's communications between Bainzel and Barak as we're approaching. Now this is now in 2019 where Bainzel says, hey, can I have, can I have some of your virus? I want to test it out for the vaccine. We're working on the coronavirus vaccine. This is 2019.

Dave Asprey

Wasn't this a Mission Impossible movie script? Do you remember that one? I think it was number two or three where the evil billionaire releases a virus so he can sell the cure. Like they put this in the movies,

Dr. Peter McCullough

you know, there's a lot of foreshadowing, there's a lot of. Do you remember the movie Contagion?

Dave Asprey

Yes.

Dr. Peter McCullough

Yeah. So contagion again, this illness and oh, it's wicked. People just die on the spot and, and it has all kinds of things. There's a guy trying to sell some natural cure or what have you and then everyone's going to be saved by a vaccine and the vaccinologists are heroes and everybody has to get a little wristband. And so this cute couple gets together finally after they're able to get vaccinated. But yeah, and even in 2010, do you remember the super bowl halftime show? It was big vaccine syringes and people dancing around and it was all this pageantry around vaccines. And so there's actually this, there's kind of a mind blowing set of observations. Or how about this one, Dave? The CDC website has been a treasure trove of statements and activities. So it wasn't too long ago where the CDC on its website had a learning module called the Zombie Apocalypse.

Dave Asprey

Oh my God.

Dr. Peter McCullough

Yeah, where everybody kind of gets nut goes nuts with this, this epidemic. Another one is cdc. This is first when the COVID vaccines came out. The CDC on this website says Covid vaccines are safe. And don't worry, there's no nanobots or nanotechnology in this. Why do they say that? Why do they say that?

Dave Asprey

As a technology guy, I've been in the world of tech for many years and even I was the CTO and co founder of the first company to get heart rate from the risk from the wrist. Like the way your Apple watch does the tech that's in oura rings and all that today. And so I'm kind of into this stuff and I'm thinking if we had injectable nanobots that did stuff, I'd probably know like I've been at IBM research pushing single molecules of copper around with a big old like inner circle ish at least. And yeah, there's definitely some graphene in there I think. But is it self assembling nano stuff? And let's get a little bit what the CIA and others would call conspiracy Theory. So what do you actually think about that? I've learned.

Dr. Peter McCullough

Yeah. Well, yeah, I haven't analyzed it. There's one paper published in the peer reviewed literature showing some of the debris in the vaccines. A. It doesn't look like it's a very pure type of product. And full disclosure, I did not take the COVID vaccines, never advised my patients to take them. I'm clean on this, but I greatly respect people who took the vaccines and recognized they made a medical mistake.

Dave Asprey

Yeah, those are the people who are the most clear minded.

Dr. Peter McCullough

Yeah, yeah, I agree. Now there's some strong people who are in the health freedom movement that come out really strong against vaccines. Two of the strongest people I can think of in the movement. I had a chance to meet them and I asked him a question. You know what I asked him? I asked him, did you yourself take any vaccines? And you know what? No, I didn't take any vaccines. And I'm so smart. I knew vaccines were dangerous. And on and on I said, wait a minute, you know, at six months you didn't make that choice or a year, your parents made that choice. So the people who have never taken vaccines had a great advantage from their parents.

Dave Asprey

They really did.

Dr. Peter McCullough

It wasn't because they're super brilliant themselves. Their parents tipped them off that a, they're obviously here now, they're fine. So they, you know, none of, none of these vaccines were needed. But then they became attuned to the issue of vaccine safety. For the rest of us, our parents just hauled us in and you know, we got the shots. But back to the spike protein. So the spike protein is the pathogenic part of the virus. If the spike protein is denuded off, this virus is innocuous. And who did that was Dr. Tanakawa in labs in Japan where he was trying a whole variety of substances of how do I denude the spike protein? How do I get it off the surface of the virus but leave the virus intact?

Dave Asprey

How do we do that?

Dr. Peter McCullough

The answer is nattokinase. He did it with nattokinase, a proteolytic enzyme, you know, a thrombolytic enzyme. And so he consistently showed that. And he showed it in intact cell models with the virus and in cell lysate models and showed that nattokinase was super effective in essentially dissolution of the spike protein, breaking it down into enough fragments where the human body can clear it out. And typically proteins of this size are cleared out through what's called the reticular endothelial system. And so the interesting observation is without Nattokinase. I can't find anything in the peer reviewed literature showing an endogenous human enzyme gets rid of this stuff. The way it is assembled and the way it folds, it appears to be fairly impervious to enzymatic degradation. In fact, the spike protein, the full length of it, folds in a way akin to amyloid. Now, amyloid is a folded protein structure that's fairly resistant to enzymatic degradation and can accumulate in tissues. So before the pandemic, there was about 32 known amylogenic proteins. So one of them is transthyretin, otherwise known as prealbumin. Another one is atrionatripeptide. So amyloidosis is when protein accumulates in tissues and we can't get rid of it. Of interest, amyloid proteins by their nature are rubbery. So in cardiac pathology, and I spent years in the cardiac pathology laboratory when we had somebody who had endogenous cardiac amyloidosis and they passed away and we had the heart. You could actually take the heart and bounce it on the table like a super ball.

Dave Asprey

Oh, wow.

Dr. Peter McCullough

It wasn't flaccid. So amylogenic proteins are rubbery. And no surprise now that with the ubiquity of the infection, and by my estimates 97% of us have had the COVID infection, the best data I'm aware of is 81% of Americans took one or more shots, 70% Americans took two or more Covid vaccines. That it's no surprise. So we have almost this ubiquitous exposure to the spike protein. It's no surprise now that this has been published by Tom Haviland, who's done big surveys with, with embalmers, that large rubbery clots are being extracted from corpses of people in the United States, almost certainly vaccinated, unvaccinated, because the human body's been loaded with the spike protein.

Dave Asprey

That's pretty scary. Do you think with the MRNA technologies that those genes are still active and some people still making additional spike protein? How long does it take for the MRNA MRNA infected cells or modified cells maybe is a better way to put it, to stop making spike protein.

Dr. Peter McCullough

You know, the National Institutes of Health has an effective ban on all research considering what happens to messenger RNA in the body and the spike protein.

Dave Asprey

How can they do that? And what person's behind the ban? Like, I'm a huge fan of faceless, nameless entities. We poke through that and we know who the people are and we know where their kids go to school and we do the old things. Shame, shame. And we like have pointed hats. I don't know what we do.

Dr. Peter McCullough

Like, you know, this one's easy. This one's easy. The head of the NIH is my friend Jay Bhattachara.

Dave Asprey

Jay did that.

Dr. Peter McCullough

Well, listen, he's in charge now. He's responsible. And then his boss is Robert F. Kennedy. He's responsible. And his boss is Donald Trump. He's real. Listen, we just.

Dave Asprey

Bobby has to be working on fixing this. I don't think he's.

Dr. Peter McCullough

I looked at the National Institutes of website. I said, where are the requests for applications in the projects regarding the spike protein or pharmacokinetics of these messenger RNA vaccines? None. Zero. So what we have to do in research now is we do research on our own budgets. We have to use our own ideas. Our patients have to volunteer their time. And so I have a patient in Dallas who's very sophisticated, worked for a medical device company, took three shots. He's suffered multiple blood clots to the lungs. MRI proven myocarditis, nerve damage mean this guy's had it all. And he's donated multiple rounds of skin biopsies and blood samples. What we found is that he has circulating Pfizer vaccine in his bloodstream. And vaccine spike protein, which by the way, is the full length spike protein with two proline inserts which holds it open and it doesn't interact with the ACE2 receptor. This is very important. It's a free floating spike and it's in the pre fusion confirmation, so you know, it can't fuse with the receptor. Anyhow, he has these in his bloodstream 3.6 years after the shots.

Dave Asprey

Oh, that's scary. So people who got the shots could still have spike protein being made on board in little factories.

Dr. Peter McCullough

There's a paper by Brogna and colleagues that use mass spect, which is a different method of trying to assess it. And it's interesting, he found of those who took Pfizer and Moderna, that about half had circulating vaccine in the bloodstream out to six months after the shots, but just half.

Dave Asprey

So we don't even know.

Dr. Peter McCullough

Wow, we don't know. And so there's tremendous knowledge gap here. And with messenger rna, the vaccine versions of messenger rna, normally messenger RNA is broken down within a few minutes or a few hours after its production. In the human body, it's a normal, you know, basically messenger from the nucleus to the cytosol where the ribosomes produce protein. So that's just normal. Right. So we have RNA aces that break it down. So the reason why messenger RNA which has been in development since 1985. Probably the best paper to quote is by Leilani and colleagues in a British medical journal really about the molecular biology love affair with messenger rna. The reason why it never got off the ground because it was hopeful that it could produce deficient proteins like insulin and diabetes and alpha galactosidase in Fabres. Reason why it never got off the ground is the human body would just immediately degrade messenger rna. So as Pfizer and Moderna and Curevac and Sanofi and the companies developing this messenger rna, they said, listen, we just can't go with the standard four base pairs on this. So they replaced uracil with a nucleoside analog, a pseudouridine that basically makes that little segment resistant to rna. So they tried replacing one every four and it had a little bit greater persistent. Then they tried replacing half, they got a little bit more persistent. And then as things came down to the pandemic and there had to be just decisions made, they said replace them all. So the messenger RNA in Pfizer and Moderna is fully synthetic. There's not a single strand that has a natural uracil in there. It has all pseudouridine. It's fully synthetic and cannot be broken down by human RNA aces. That's the reason why it circulates so long. Now here's the interesting thing, Dave, here's the interesting thing. Moderna has released a respiratory syncytial virus vaccine, now has an influenza vaccine. Same technology, no scrutiny, no scrutiny. The messenger RNA as it quote was rushed forward, it really wasn't. There are no pharmacokinetics studies to show where it goes in the body and what happens. No pharmacodynamic studies to show when and if it ever shuts off. There's no oncogenicity studies, no teratogenicity studies, no genotoxicity studies. It never had these. And now it's becoming part of standard vaccine platforms. There's no rush or urgency right now for the conditions.

Dave Asprey

So we'll call it a vaccine cult. Given the history of it and the lack of validity for science behind these things. Now they're taking this as a religious backed license to modify human biology with experimental things whenever they want to. Okay, is there a goal behind all this? You might have to guess.

Dr. Peter McCullough

No, I'm not going to say goal, but I want to fill out some more data. So people have said, okay, what really happens and for sure it's long lasting in the body for some. For others it's not so it should be studied. Why do some people seem to have none of it and others have a lot of it? I think part of this has to do with the batches. There's been enough analysis suggesting that each one of these vials that come from batches, the batches aren't the same. Some must have been super loaded and some must have had little or no product in it. That's first observation. Some of this stuff must denature over time. Remember the cold technology where there was all these stern looking people and dry ice and all the people on the side of the road cheering for the Pfizer trucks. I mean, this was really an amazing rollout with all the drama it was. A few months into it, Pfizer said, you know, we don't need to refrigerate it, we're just going to use a little different buffer and it's all good. In the clinical trials, Dave, they use single vials per subject, single dosing vials. When they got to the mass production, they said, you know, we can take six syringe straws from the same vial here. Just so the nurses are injecting air into it, variably sterilizing the diaphragm on the. There's all kinds of sloppiness in this whole thing. And on top of that, remember the vaccine centers? I remember in Dallas they opened one in Fair park and it's the summer of 2021. It's hot as blazes. I can't imagine this stuff, you know, it has to have varying degrees of denaturization, so not all of it's active. But having said that, Yang de Morenis senior investigator Marcus Alden, her student in Malmo, Sweden, published an important paper. They take human hepatoma cells and they infuse this culture with Pfizer and they take what's called the center amplicon, which is the 444 center base pair out of the 1200 base pairs. And the reason why they chose that is they could reliably tag that with additional PCR probes. And they study this and they find at least the center portion gets rapidly taken up into human hepatomal cell lines. It becomes part of the genome of these human cells reliably. Now I've had a chance to meet Yang de Morenaz, talk about it, and she's from Japan, a very, very bright lady. And of course we don't know, does all the code get taken up and does the human body edit it out or not? There was some early studies with SARS CoV2 suggesting there was some genomic integration of SARS CoV2, but it looked like the body edited out. We have pretty good gene editing programs to get this ST out. Now recently Cantazaro and a group that I worked with in a woman who had a bladder cancer in her 30s after taking the vaccines, studied her genome and we found about 20 base pairs of the vaccine actually in her code. So I can tell you part of it does stick in the human genome. Probably not all of it, but some of it. And this is very disturbing.

Dave Asprey

So that is quite disturbing. Number one for listeners, if you go to the hospital or a doctor, do not sign anything that says that you give them permission to use biologics because that's a code word for these vaccines. I'm not even saying they're unsafe. I actually am very much in favor of vaccines that extend human life and we can make them. These are powerful technology platforms. You need more Follistatin, you need more clotho like that. There's things that go down as you age that we could turn on. If I get a testosterone increasing vaccine that didn't cause cancer, didn't have lies behind it, and actually had real science published by people without an agenda, I think having fine grained control of my biology is necessary for me to live to 180. So I'm not opposed to these things. But no, no doctor, no hospital should be sticking things in your body that are there to help you fight off things you can already fight off. It doesn't make any sense and they're doing without your consent.

Dr. Peter McCullough

Well, it's an opportunity. It's an opportunity for misadventure. So if this messenger RNA is making a perfectly safe necessary protein where there's no consequences of excess, this is very important, no consequences of excess. So let's take Clofo as an example. You'd have to really, really be sure there's no consequences of excess because with the messenger RNA right now, Pfizer, Moderna, Curevac, Sanofi, Biontech, there's no ability to shut it off. There's no off.

Dave Asprey

And it doesn't seem to time out the way a normal. There are gene therapies I've actually done for longevity that time out over time. So at least they, well, they should

Dr. Peter McCullough

time out or fatigue out. You'd think at some point in time you go through enough ribosome complexes that there's some modification of the rna, maybe another piece of RNA sticks to it and then deactivates it by the Way there are what's called SIRNAs or just inactivating RNAs. We actually use those in clinical medicine. I use one right now called Inclinzeran. So we can use small interfering RNAs but we don't know if they exist or not. We, we published a paper I was involved in where we suggested coming up with one for Pfizer Moderna, just finding the reverse base pairs to stick to part of it that will stop it from being read by the ribosomes. Or there's a locking device molecularly called ribotech to suggest it. But right now there's no. So you can imagine of the 81% of people who took Covid shots, 94% of them took Pfizer and Moderna. So we've got a large segment of the US population walking around with synthetic RNA in them, at least at one point in time. Now they're being approached to take a human RSV vaccine, an adult respiratory syncytial virus vaccine, which now that will produce for an unlimited duration and quantity, the fusion protein on the surface of the virus. Now Moderna's just had released approved is influenza vaccine which will produce four different types of, of hemagglutinin proteins for an indefinite period of time. So I just counted up basically six different proteins being produced. And if you took the boosters now you have different variations of those.

Dave Asprey

We don't even know what they do.

Dr. Peter McCullough

I can tell you as a doctor, because messenger RNA is producing foreign proteins within human cells. The first thing human cells do is they express the proteins on the cell surface for sure. And the first thing the human body does is attack those cells.

Dave Asprey

Yep, autoimmunity, Right.

Dr. Peter McCullough

The second thing is the cytosol, the cytoplasm of the cell tries to get rid of these things and it is thermodynamically strained. And the energy producing organelles in the cell, the mitochondria, become under strain when they're loaded with crud, which includes things that aren't supposed to be there. So I've published a paper with Tony Karagakos and colleagues from Greece that highlights probably the bigger picture here, and that is this thermodynamic instability. If you look at the human body as a perfectly balanced organism, perfectly balanced in nature, now we've upset that balance with synthetic messenger rna. We conjecture that there will be a consequence. And it's reasonable because we're seeing signals of cardiovascular disease, inflammation and death, neurologic disease and all kinds of problems there, autoimmunity, thrombosis and neoplastic activity and there are data support. All of these, all of that, Dave, actually, unfortunately, leads to the antithesis of what you are aspiring. It doesn't lead to longevity. It leads to premature death, sensation of human life.

Dave Asprey

Given that there was no accountability for what people did during the pandemic. And it's tough because scientists do need to be free to make mistakes, but you don't roll out mistakes to billions of people using propaganda techniques. But there's been no legal accountability for this. Fauci's not in jail. The people who knowingly lied and made lots of money doing it are walking around free. These new things that are happening look like they're absolute disasters, but there's immunity because we're calling them vaccines. Other than removing vaccine immunity, is there something that you can think of to be done in the system to stop these people?

Dr. Peter McCullough

All I can do is tell you, listen, if I was, let's say if I was Robert F. Kennedy, I would have been a qualified person to run hhs. I've have led, you know, large organizations, thousands of people. I do think HHS secretary should be a doctor. Now. In the, in the first Trump cabinet, there was only one doctor. You know who it was? He was, he was HUD Secretary Ben Carson.

Dave Asprey

Oh, my gosh, who would have thought.

Dr. Peter McCullough

And you know what? In the First Trump cabinet, Dr. Carson was the only cabinet members, 15 of them, to not take a vaccine. Wow. Yeah. Listen, I would do this if I was Robert F. Kennedy, period, period. I'd say, listen, I have medical authority. No one is going to stop me. No one on earth is going to stop me from doing this. Is number one, I pull all the COVID vaccines off the market, and with them, I'd pull all the messenger RNA vaccines off the market, all of them, and say, listen, we have to go back basic pharmacokinetics, pharmacodynamics, figure out what shuts these things off and study the accumulation of all these proteins and antigens in the body. Okay, so that's step one. Step two, I would work with Congress and rescind the 1986 Vaccine Injury Compensation Act.

Dave Asprey

That's where this comes down to.

Dr. Peter McCullough

Yeah, just gone. Just gone. And the companies have to stand behind their products. I guarantee they would be sweeping withdrawals of products from the market. The companies would say, listen, it's not worth it to take on this type of liability. Number three, I ban all direct to consumer pharmaceutical and vaccine advertising. At least with the pharmaceutical advertising, they have to list side effects. They usually do it in some type of disclaimer with vaccine advertising, which is done by government agencies on behalf of the companies. Even worse, they don't list any of the side effects. So I would pull all those off the market. I'd have a massive turn of research interest into COVID 19 vaccine injuries, the Spike protein. I would launch an exhaustive and relentless investigation into the autism epidemic. And, you know, our CDC has been observing this for decades as it gets worse and worse, and it shows no interest in inquiring what's behind it. I would thoroughly investigate that. And then lastly, if I had broad, sweeping powers, if I was the president or I work with the president, I go directly to the Department of Justice and say, listen, we've got a problem. We must assign a special counsel. A DOJ or inspector general is not going to do it because they're conflicted. The government was part of this. The only way to do this is have a special counsel, external special counsel, and begin to investigate. And so when you investigate, we have three levels. We have targets, people who we think actually committed crimes. So Anthony Fauci is up there. He thinks he committed crimes because he's obviously asked for clemency and got it. We would have subjects, people who are witnesses that may have actually committed crimes. And then we'd have, you know, we'd have experts, we'd have people we'd. Witnesses we'd want to interview. I'd be happy to be one of the witnesses. I was very involved in all this, so the bottom line is I would do all of that. And then people say, well, Dr. McCullough, Trump would fire you. I'd say, listen, I'd go toe to toe with Trump. And I say, you go ahead and try. I have medical authority and I'm bigger and I'm stronger than you, and I'm doing this, period.

Dave Asprey

There's that fierceness that you've got.

Dr. Peter McCullough

Yeah, listen, listen. You have to be fearsome and everyone. Right now we have 15 cabinet members. Do you know how many cabinet members have had any dissent with Trump?

Dave Asprey

Of the remaining ones, probably not that many.

Dr. Peter McCullough

None. Do you know anybody in the White House where there's been any dissent or different views on anything?

Dave Asprey

I don't think I have any visibility into that, to be honest. I don't follow politics that closely, and I've never been in the White House, but I imagine that it's minimal.

Dr. Peter McCullough

Everything I can see, it's identical to the Politburo. I've been to Moscow. I've seen the voting record. Listen, they all agree with Putin 100%. And listen, it's 100. That's the way Trump wants to run things. Trump is the antithesis of Abe Lincoln. Remember Abe Lincoln? You know, he was president during a really tough time during the Civil War, and, you know, he had some of the most contentious battles. He actually used to be involved in these dialectics, these debates. All the people disagree with him. You know what he did? He brought him in as cabinet members.

Dave Asprey

Wow.

Dr. Peter McCullough

It's called, and it was a great book. Doris Kearns Goodwin published the book Team of Rivals. It's a great book about how you do it. If you really want to be a strong president, you surround yourself with people who disagree with you because you get stronger.

Podcast Announcer

Wow.

Dave Asprey

Yep. It's true. Having people who disagree, who are respectful. And the problem is very few humans are capable of disagree and engage. So, okay, I disagreed, you made a decision. Now we're going to go. And when I hire people in my company, it's a big thing. Not everyone's going to agree with everything. It's not a democracy, it's an enlightened dictatorship where ultimately they have the final say. But I'm going to listen and I promise I'll do that. But at the end of the day, if we disagree, you got to full heartedly go in with the plan. Otherwise you're not going to be here. And I just wouldn't want Trump leadership.

Dr. Peter McCullough

But that's leadership, Dave. But, you know, the key thing is on all of this dissent is identity. So you can't put your identity in your position in something like, oh, I think messenger RNA is the greatest thing in the world. It's like, no, that can't be my identity. Let's talk about it. And, you know, we just have to be able to. Right now, people want to on political lines, they feel like they must identify in either on the right or on the left all over the world. By the way, can you think of anybody in the public space right now, let's say at the top of government leadership, or can you think of anybody who's trying to unite both sides?

Dave Asprey

I can think of someone who was trying before he stopped running for president. I think Bobby was really trying to do that, but he's working with Trump now, and that's not his role where he is now.

Dr. Peter McCullough

But I'll just say I can't think of anybody who's even making any unifying statements. In fact, it's just the opposite. Most of it is one side calling the other side names.

Dave Asprey

Yeah, it's gotten worse over the last 25 years, it's gotten worse.

Dr. Peter McCullough

But remember, in our country, the elections are usually very close. Right. So they're not, at least by popular vote, they're not landslides. So if things are really close, you actually need to gain friends, not lose friends. So if you insult people, there's zero chance of gaining friends. You're just gonna lose friends. So people actually need to be friendly. So I can tell you, if I was the president, I would not insult the other side. I mean, come on, you're a leader of the free world. You don't need to insult people. I would be inviting the other side over for all kinds of social events and parties and relationship building. Yeah. And just, you know, and just keep going and going and going. That's how good leaders should operate. We're not seeing that right now. I mean, leaders at the top of the, of countries insulting the other side, like that's going to gain votes. And you know, the press, it's very interesting, the press, and I work with the press. I'm in the frequent contributor group with some of these big outfits. They feel the same. They feel that they have to be 100% aligned with the administration.

Dave Asprey

It's really interesting. I oftentimes ask people who, who wins the super bowl every year? Do you know who it is? The NFL wins the super bowl every year. It doesn't matter what your team is.

Dr. Peter McCullough

Oh, that's a good one.

Dave Asprey

Right. So if you're gonna be red or blue, it's like, you know, Cowboys versus Patriots. Really? Really. That's not who's, who's setting this up? Right. They're, they're hooking your attention. So I am absolutely nonpartisan. I care about reality and facts and behaviors. I don't care what color shirt or aisle or all that stuff. It's all made up nonsense sense and it's unscientific and it's.

Dr. Peter McCullough

So when you think about it, you know, we're coming up on 250 years in the United States. It's one nation under God, indivisible. Indivisible. So I think any statements out there that are dividing statements like denigrating one side or the other, all this horribleness, the world would be a lot better if we drop it because we have issues we have to address. We should actually focus on the issues and stop all the fighting. People think somehow that they're gaining something by insulting someone on the other side. Out in social media, gosh, I have tens of thousands of tweets or posts, probably even more. Hundreds of Thousands. I don't insult anyone, you know.

Dave Asprey

I appreciate that, Peter. You're a classy guy. I appreciate, like, I'm not that classy. Every now and then for fun, when a troll comes after me and says I look old, I'll respond and say, that's not what your mom said, because it makes me laugh. I just can't help it. But I know it's not that nice. But it's so funny. Other than that, no.

Dr. Peter McCullough

We have a few minutes left. I gotta get this in because you probably will never have me on again.

Dave Asprey

Do it.

Dr. Peter McCullough

So you are in a paper I sent over that's in the National Library of Medicine. Oh. And yes. And it's cited by. It's cited. It's listed in National Library of Medicine. By the way, I think I'm. I think I'm the person you've ever had on your show with the most listings on National Library of Medicine.

Dave Asprey

Oh, wow.

Dr. Peter McCullough

Yeah. Yeah. I'm one of the highest in the United States. Oh, wow.

Dave Asprey

It's a paper on biohacking from 2025 that I didn't see.

Dr. Peter McCullough

Yeah. And it's about what is biohacking? I. I sent it to you in the.

Podcast Announcer

Wow.

Dr. Peter McCullough

Anyhow, I wanted you to see that. Now, the paper I don't think is informative. It's all over the place, but I wanted to let you know, cited in the peer reviewed literature. Oh, cool.

Dave Asprey

It says the likes of Dave Asprey and Andrew Huberman exemplify the other type of figure. And I can say I had Andrew on my show before he started his podcast.

Dr. Peter McCullough

So. Okay, so Dave, this is the point I want to make about longevity. Right now, the AI estimates that I've used are that of people about 0.03 to 0.06% of the population makes it to over a hundred. Okay. That's the current number. Now my granny, she wanted to make it to over 100, and bless her heart, she made it to 99. But think about it. When you're. It's my grandmother, she died several decades ago. You know, she lived through the era of no antibiotics and you know, and you know, all the rest of this to. In modern surgical techniques and you know, things happen during life. But I want to quote a paper by Hasra and colleagues, the UK, they looked at data 1990 to 2013 and they had over 10,000 people. So this is probably one of the best ones so far. Of those who make it to 173% are on some type of prescription pharmaceutical. 73% and some of it's in the cardiovascular lines like high blood pressure or. Actually one of the biggest ones were anti arrhythmics, which was surprising to me. Me some, some GI drugs, but most of it was unnecessary, like sleep medication. I kind of looked at it was central nervous system. It was being on benzodiazepines or other drugs. Now, of those who make it over a hundred, only 25% have intact cognitive function.

Dave Asprey

Yeah, that's a little thing.

Dr. Peter McCullough

So they're called cognitive super agers. So here's my point about longevity. It's possible. It's possible. Now the key is to study the cognitive superagers. They have to be studied. They cannot be. You can't do it from a midlife perspective and take a reductionistic approach to an enormously complex organism and say, I can figure this out. We have to go to the very end and figure out who is living that long and why. Those people, I think should be intensely studied. They've been very lightly studied so far. They should be intensely studied. One of the things that I was, I'm very interested in is now with artificial intelligence, we can actually do lifelong histories. If you spend enough time, you can figure out almost every day of their life, what did they do, what were their exposures, what happened, you know, and I, I think to make it that long, you do have to be free of certain catastrophes, right? Like disabling plane crashes and vehicle accidents and hip fractures and, and you know, intracranial hemorrhages and things like this. But the point is, I think they should be intensively studied for factors that do lead to that state. And I want to let you know about two patients that I've examined that I think of and I've examined now in my career, a hundred thousand people. So one is African American, one is white, they're both women, but they've made it to about 90. And let me tell you what, they look each look about 30 years younger. I mean, smooth skin. Attractive. Okay, attractive. And when I examined them, there's no sign. There's no arca senilis in the cornea. There's no signs. I got to the teeth. Notably, both of them have never had dental cavities or any dental work needed. Perfect teeth. And then notably, Dave, neither one of them has ever had even a common cold.

Dave Asprey

Wow. So they have some sort of immune thing. That's great.

Dr. Peter McCullough

No, but nothing else else. But they've had nothing else. No heart attacks, no organ problems, no surgeries, nothing else. It's perfection to age 90.

Dave Asprey

Incredible.

Dr. Peter McCullough

The point I'm making on longevity for your followers, it's possible.

Dave Asprey

It is possible. And that's why when I say I want to make it to 180, people kind of roll the rise. I'm like, look, our current best is 120. I want 50% better. And I have AI and, and PubMed and DNA analysis and all these technologies, including the ability to someday make my own MRNA at home, that makes me live longer. If that's a good approach, I don't know.

Dr. Peter McCullough

Right.

Dave Asprey

But bottom line is I have more tech, more science, more knowledge, more access. Like, we can do this, but we gotta get the people who are trying to kill us through their ignorance or their savagery or their bad intentions or maybe just their weird religious psycho stuff. We gotta get them out of the way. So. So that's step one is don't die because someone's trying to kill you with something that doesn't work. So I'm in that camp for sure.

Dr. Peter McCullough

Dave, I've got a patient. I'm going to have to go, but it's been so much fun.

Dave Asprey

Thank you, my friend. You are a gentleman and a scholar and a true hero. Thank you for your work. Keep it up.

Dr. Peter McCullough

Thank you.

Dave Asprey

See you next time on the Human Upgrade Podcast.

Podcast Announcer

A Human Upgrade, formerly Bulletproof Radio, was created and is hosted by Dave Asprey. The information contained in this podcast is provided for informational purposes only and is not intended for the purposes of diagnosing, treating, curing, or preventing any disease. Before using any products referenced on the podcast, consult with your healthcare provider carefully read all labels and heed all directions and cautions that accompany the products. Information found or received through the podcast should not be used in place of a consultation or advice from a healthcare provider. If you suspect you have a medical problem or should you have any healthcare questions, please promptly call or see your healthcare provider. This podcast, including Dave Asprey and the producers, disclaim responsibility for any possible adverse effects from the use of information contained herein. Opinions of guests are their own and this podcast does not endorse or accept responsibility for statements made by guests. This podcast does not make any representations or warranties about guest qualifications or credibility. This podcast may contain paid endorsement, endorsements and advertisements for products or services. Individuals on this podcast may have a direct or indirect financial interest in products or services referred to herein. This podcast is owned by Bulletproof Media.