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Megyn Kelly

Welcome to the Megyn Kelly show live on Sirius XM channel 111 every weekday at noon East. Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to the Megyn Kelly show and today's double feature episode. This is a good one. It is Mafia Sunday. Yes. We're going into the archives to bring you two fascinating conversations with two former members of the mafia who opened up in a very transparent way about their lives before and their lives after their time in the family. First Michael Francis and then Sammy the Bull Gravano. I mean, I can't tell you the number of times I have referenced that interview with Sammy the Bull Gravano. It was truly one of the most memorable exchanges I've ever had in, in my entire career. You listen to this sampling and you will see why. Enjoy. Today we bring you the fascinating story of a man born into the mob. Imagine that. Michael Franzes grew up as the son of the notorious underboss of New York's Colombo crime family and became extremely successful himself. He's been called one of the biggest mob earners since Al Capone. But he has since left his life of crime behind and is now a best selling author, speaker and host of Sit down with Michael Franzese on YouTube. Michael, welcome to the show. Nice to meet you.

Michael Franzese

Well, nice to meet you, Megan. Thanks for having me.

Megyn Kelly

Oh, what a fascinating story you have. So let's start at the beginning. You were born into into the mob. Describe your dad and how he came into it.

Michael Franzese

Well, my dad, my father actually immigrated here in about 1902, 1903, and he was a prominent guy in Brooklyn. Even though he wasn't a member, he certainly knew a lot of the guys. My dad, my grandfather had a bar and a bakery, and a lot of guys would come in and associate with him. And my dad started to meet them through my grandfather. And my grandfather was known as Tutti the Lion. So he was pretty. Pretty substantial guy. And my father got drawn in. You know, he was just that type of guy, had that type of spirit. And they saw something in him. Before you know it, you know, he became a made man and eventually rose up in the ranks to captain and then underboss of the Colombo family. And, you know, Megan, I grew up a lot differently than most people. I grew up, you know, hating the government, hating the police because my dad was constantly under surveillance. We had law enforcement around us all the time, and I always viewed them as harassing my dad. So, you know, I kind of grew up, you know, from the time I can remember, you know, in that lifestyle.

Megyn Kelly

So how talk us through, like, your earliest memories of your dad. And like, okay, my. My childhood, my family is not like all the others.

Michael Franzese

Well, you know, my very earliest memory and this, this. It's amazing how you can remember some things that just really impact you. I was probably four years old and my dad had. We were in Brooklyn at the time, but my dad had moved us out to my grandmother's house who lived in Long Island. And I hadn't seen him for a couple of days. I assume again, I was four years old. But then one day he comes into my grandmother's house. He hadn't shaved in a while. His right hand guy got the name of Joey, who is, again, my dad's right hand guy was out on the porch and I can see through the window, and he was kind of like standing guard. My dad comes in, hugs my mom, and, you know, they talk for a few minutes. Then he comes over to me. I was sitting on the steps, and he gives me a big hug and, you know, I love you, son and all of that. And I didn't know what was going on. And then he left. Well, what I realized later on it was that was during the Profaci Gallo war, and they had taken to the mattresses, as the saying goes. So my dad wasn't around for a while. That's the earliest memory that I have. And it just continued there because my dad was so high profile. He was always under investigation, always a major Target of law enforcement. I always say he was kind of like the John Gotti of his day. So, you know, it's my memory, you know, going way back, and he was always in the media. So, you know, I had issues at school because my dad, you know, guys was, hey, you got a mafia dad. You know, I would fight because I love my dad. I didn't care what anybody said. And so it was, you know, from my earliest days that I remember that.

Megyn Kelly

And did you. Did he ever, like, tell you, I'm in this thing called the mafia? This is what I do. You can't talk about it. How did you come to realize he was part of this organization?

Michael Franzese

You know, one of the many things I respect about my dad at that time, he never brought what was going on outside into the house. He would never talk about it. He would never mention it. Obviously, you know, every once in a while I'd hear a crack because law enforcement was outside surveilling him. But he would never bring it up. He would never admit to anything, never talk about anything. Obviously, a lot of his guys were coming to the house all the time, but to me, they were like, uncle, you know, Uncle Sam. Uncle, this guy. So it was normal, you know, But I saw the way my dad was treated. We would go to the Copacabana and go out places, and, you know, he always had a lot of respect people. He had a lot of charisma, and he commanded a lot of respect in that regard. But never, never, never did he mention anything when I was younger, Never.

Megyn Kelly

So how'd you figure it out?

Michael Franzese

Well, again, you know, from what I. From my observation, from what I read in the media, you know, there was huge stories about him all the time, and obviously, you know, what I saw and what other people told me. So. And I never really brought it up to him. I would never say anything to him, because to me, he was dad. You know, he was a loving father. And I never did. It wasn't till I got older and my dad started, you know, getting indicted quite a bit and going on trial for, you know, serious crimes. He was on trial twice for grand larceny and once for murder. So obviously during that, we had some talks. And my dad would always say, you know, I'm innocent, son. I didn't commit these crimes. Eventually, he was acquitted on three of those trials that he went to in the state of New York. So, you know, I started to know, obviously, as I got older, how was.

Megyn Kelly

Was I. Cause I. I know, you know, Sammy the Bull, and he came on the show two summers ago, and he was talking to me about how he tried to move his family into sort of a nicer neighborhood. And he wound up leaving because he was getting really angry that the neighbors were telling their kids not to play with his kids. And he went over to the neighbor's house, and he threatened them at the door, you know, like, I'm gonna get you unless you. And he said he had this realization, like, what am I doing? What. This is not. I'm scaring these people, you know, to within an inch of their lives. These are civilians. I can't be here. I got to go back to my normal. Like, I'm wondering how your dad was when you had scuffles at school, when the teachers were nasty to you, when the neighbors crossed a line. Were there any situations like that?

Michael Franzese

You know, not really. I mean, we were kind of accepted in the neighborhood, you know. What happened then? My dad was under surveillance from seven or eight different agencies, law enforcement agencies. And their tactics were different back then than today. Today, everything is very covert. Undercover informants, high tech surveillance equipment. Back then, when they had you under investigation, they wanted you to know about it. And so for a period like seven, eight, nine years, we had constant law enforcement around us. They would sit, you know, on the front of our house, the back of our house, so that we couldn't leave without them surveilling us. The neighbors actually got upset with them. I remember one woman putting a garden hose on her, on them, because she was so upset or tired of seeing them sitting in front of. Of our house. My dad, you know, he was a charismatic guy. People liked him. You know, I didn't run into any of that. I mean, some kinds. Like I said, kids in school would get a little out of hand, but I would deal with it. But, you know, one thing I'll tell you, I played sports in school, and my dad wouldn't miss a game. And when I was playing baseball, if I was up to bat, my dad walked onto the field. The umpire would never call strike three on me when he saw my dad.

Megyn Kelly

So

Michael Franzese

I used to say, dad, you're very good for my batting average back then. But I didn't run into that kind of resistance from people, and neither did we.

Megyn Kelly

And what time take me. Like, what years are we talking about? When you were. What year were you born?

Michael Franzese

I was born at 51. So we're talking, you know, late 50s, early 60s. And right through the 60s is when my dad really, you know, had all his trouble. So it was that whole decade all

Megyn Kelly

right, and so how about you? You become. I mean, I'm picturing something, of course, like Goodfellas, where you're a young kid and you're entranced by the lifestyle and you feel like a big man. But you tell me, how did you get attracted to the business yourself and make the decision to join?

Michael Franzese

You know, it was just the opposite with me. My dad preached against me doing anything but getting an education. He wanted me to go to school, wanted me to be a doctor. He was hell bent on education. Mike, you're gonna be the first professional in the family. And he meant it. He kept me on that road. It wasn't until he was indicted in a federal case for masterminding a nationwide string of bank robberies. He gets convicted, he gets a 50 year prison sentence in 1967. And in 1970, when I was 19, he went off to do his time. Joe Colombo, who was the boss of our family, and I was very close with their family. He kind of takes me under his wing. We start to march with the Italian American Civil Rights League. We were marching against the FBI for, you know, defaming Italian Americans. So I got very involved in the league as a way to help my dad. Because, Megan, I'll tell you this, you know, when we get later on in this. I went to jail for a crime that I was guilty of. I pled guilty, did my time. My dad obviously did a lot of bad things in his life. But that particular crime that he did 40 years in prison on, my dad was innocent of. I'll take that to my grave. We investigated every one of those witnesses. They recanted their testimony. We gave them lie detector tests, proved they lied at the trial. We could never get the conviction overturned. So I was hell bent on trying to help my dad prove his innocence because he had essentially a death sentence. He went in when he was 50 years old. 50 on top of that, you know, that's a long time. So I got into that life because I lost interest in school. I was a sophomore in college and I was a pre med student. I was highly influenced by Joe Colombo and the guys that, you know, that I met during that time. And they would say, mike, if you don't help your father out, he's going to die in prison. So I went to see him in Leavenworth in the penitentiary, and we sat in the visiting room. I said, dad, you tell me you're innocent, I believe you. I'm not going to school anymore. If I don't help you out, you're going to die in here. And we had a pretty intense discussion because he was against it, but he knew my mind was made up, and I was a pretty headstrong kid. So he said to me, son, if you're going to be on the street, you know, I want you on the street the right way. And then, you know, Megan, I don't like to, you know, say this. I don't like to be offensive to people, but he asked me one question, and he said, son, if you had to kill anybody, could you do it? And I thought about it for a minute, you know, kind of a little bit surprised by the question. But I said, dad, if the circumstances were right, I can do it. And he said, that's the right answer. Go home. Somebody's going to be in touch with you. Do whatever you're told. And that's when he proposed me for membership in the Life.

Megyn Kelly

Wow. It's almost like you were on the. The same path as Michael Corleone in the Godfather, right? Like, he was supposed to be the son who didn't get drawn into the business. He was going to be a senator or in a position of power. You were supposed to become a doctor and pursue a legit life. And yet you did get pulled. You did get pulled in.

Michael Franzese

Yes. And, you know, it's like I said, it wasn't. Even though I was around my dad. And listen, we always got first class treatment. I can't tell you how many times, Megan, I went to the Copacabana. We met everybody from Sinatra on down, and they all had respect for my dad. And the owner, Julie Padel, loved my father, and we got that kind of treatment. My dad was also in the music business. I met a lot of artists when I was younger, so he carried himself in that way where people were attracted to him, and he was a tremendous influence on me in that regard. I watched him, I observed him, but it wasn't. I didn't want to be a gangster. That's not what my life was all about. You know, I was heading the legitimate way, and then I got drawn in because I just felt, you know, it was incumbent upon me to help my dad. I was also the oldest of the kids, you know, and there's a myth in that life that, you know, once you're part of that life, you go to prison, they take care of you forever. That's not true. Whatever my dad had on the street at the time, you know, it ran out after about two years, and then we were on our own. So I had to help support the family. And do all the things that, you know, an oldest son would do.

Megyn Kelly

Wow. I didn't realize that. I thought I believed the myth, too. So now you're what, like in your young 20s? And what did, how did you start to become a part of it? You know, did they. Do they give you a gun and say you've got to shoot somebody? This is one of the rumors that you've got to shoot somebody, you've got to kill somebody in order to officially be accepted as part of the Mafia. Is that true? How did you realize you were in and what was expected of you?

Michael Franzese

Well, my dad sent word, you know, downtown to the officials. About two weeks later, a Caporagino captain and a family picked me up and he took me to see the boss. Now, Joe Colombo had been shot, seriously wounded at a big rally we had for the Italian American Civil Rights League at Columbus Circle. And I was like 12 steps away from him when that happened. So a new boss had taken over. He's passed on now, Tom DiBella. And I sat with Tom. He says, mike, I got a message from your father. He said, you want to become a member of our life? Is that true? And I said, yes. He said, well, here's the deal. From now on, 24 hours a day, seven days a week, you're on call to serve this family, the Colombo family. And that means if your mother is sick and she's dying and we call you to service and you're at her bedside and you leave your mother's side, you come and serve us. From now on, we're number one in your life before anything and everything. When and if we feel you deserve this privilege, this honor to become a member, we'll let you know. And that's how it started. I was 21 years old. I was in kind of like a pledge period. I was a recruit, that's the official title of that, where I had to do anything and everything I was told to do to prove myself worthy. And, you know, it could have been something very menial. A lot of discipline in that life, a lot of alleged respect, a lot of authority. You had a meeting at 8 o', clock, you weren't there at 7:30, you were late. Can never be late in that life. Drive the boss to a meeting, sit in a car, two, three, four hours, God forbid you leave, go to the restroom, get a newspaper. He comes out, you're not there, you're in trouble. I know, I did that once. I paid the price. A lot of stuff like that. And Megan, I gotta be honest, you know, the life is very violent at times. And if you're part of that life, you're part of the violence and there's no escape. And if anybody tells you differently, they're either not being honest with you or they weren't a made man in that life. And, you know, I think you know what I mean. But, you know, here's the other myth. You know, a lot of guys talk about, you know, all these killings. Like we ran around all day long and all we did was baseball bat people and murder people. Absolutely not true. You know, in our life and at least in our family, I can tell you this. You know, murder was taken very seriously. It was the last course of action. It had to be approved by the boss. There was discussion over it most of the time, at least my experience in the 20 plus years are put into that life. It wasn't that guys were around, running around every day, just targeting people to hurt. And I know, you know, there's a lot of guys on YouTube that talk that way. Now, that wasn't my experience, but it is part of the life. And if you're called upon to do it, you gotta do it.

Megyn Kelly

Was it petty crime? Was it like, you didn't pay back the loan, so I gotta break your legs? That's not petty, but I'm just saying it was violent, but it wasn't murder. So did you have to hurt people? Because I feel like that would be a before and after moment.

Michael Franzese

Well, let's put it this way. You know, a lot of. I had a lot of bookmakers around me that were taking, you know, obviously taking bets illegally at the time. And, you know, the last course of action is to hurt somebody. Because if somebody is in debt to you, you want them to pay you, it's only if they're, you know, doing something like so obnoxious to you that, hey, you gotta teach this guy a lesson. But it's not the first course of action. At least with me it wasn't. And with most of the people that I knew at that time, certainly not with my dad, that wasn't a first course of action. But did it happen at times? Yeah, I'm not going to say it didn't. And, you know, there was kind of. It was kind of two different categories. I would say in that life, you're either a racketeer or you're a gangster. Give you an example. In our family, we had 115 made guys at that time. This was after I took the oath. 115 made guys out of that 115, maybe 20 of us were real earners. We were bringing money into the life. 20, the other 95, you know, who's got a no show job, who's got a gambling, who's trying to do something just to make a few bucks. And they're the guys that are leaned upon most of the time to do the work because you got to earn your way in that life. Guys that are bringing in money, they want to protect those guys. However, a gangster never really had the ability to become a racketeer because if he did, he would be and he'd be earning. But a racketeer has to be both because you're going to be called upon in that life to do what you have to do and you can't refuse. And you got to be capable in that regard. So, you know, but again, the smarter guys, you don't want to hurt people every day. That's not what we were out to do.

Megyn Kelly

It must have been a jarring flip, right? To go from this world in which you thought you were going to be a doctor healing people to this world in which you became part of the mafia sometimes having to hurt people, right? Like, do you ever think about it like that?

Michael Franzese

You know, I did, Megan. But quite honestly, maybe it was because being around my dad my whole life, or maybe I did have something in me. Maybe I wasn't destined to be a doctor. I don't know. I mean, I often reflected on that myself and said, you know, how did I adapt to this so well, because, you know, I had some success life. And look, I'll be honest with you, you know, I had a very idealistic view of the life when I got into the life, you know, they told me, hey, you know, you don't ever have to worry wherever you go in the world, somebody's going to have your back. Don't ever worry about your mother, your sister, your wife, your daughter. Nobody's ever going to hurt them, will protect them. You have a brotherhood around you. You know, I was going to be, you know, bonded in blood in a different way, you know, with my father than I already was. So I had a very idealistic view of the life coming in. I was excited about it, you know, and I wanted the best possible mob guy could be at that time. So, you know, maybe, maybe I did have it in me all the time. I just didn't know it.

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Michael Franzese

Yeah.

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Megyn Kelly

This is mobs for dummies. So to become a made guy, what does it mean? And I know you took like the oath of omerta, which I really. I think I also took that same oath at Fox News. But is that only when you become a made guy or is that just like when you first sort of join the mob?

Michael Franzese

Yeah, well, I was in kind of, like I said, a recruit period. And it was an interesting period because from 19, from the early 1950s right through 1974, 75, they had an expression in the life that covered all five families and that the books were closed. They weren't making or recruiting any new guys. The only way they were able to do that in one of the families, if somebody died, they were able to bring another guy in to replace that person. So when I was a recruit, I was around guys that were waiting 20 years to become a made guy.

Megyn Kelly

Meaning what, though? Like, as you're in the mafia, but you're not made? I mean, I only know the goodfellas reference. When Joe Pesci's character became made, he became more important somehow. But he was in the mob prior to that moment, right?

Michael Franzese

Well, prior to that, you become an associate, meaning that somebody that's an official in that life puts you on record with them and you're officially with that person. That makes you an official associate. Nobody else can do business with you unless the maid guy says it's okay and he has complete authority over you. He's responsible for you, and you're responsible to answer to him. That's an associate. So when you're in a recruit, like I was, I was an associate but it's not an official position in that life. Once you get, you know, you prove yourself and you're approved to become a maid member, which is the term that they use. Well, then you take an oath and you become a soldier. And a soldier is the first official position in that life. The next ranking up is a copper regime or a captain. And then you have the hierarchy, which is the boss, the underboss, and the consigliere.

Salvatore 'Sammy the Bull' Gravano

So.

Michael Franzese

And that's it. Those are the rankings.

Megyn Kelly

And with the boss, the underboss, and the consigliere. And who's the don? Is he above all of them, or is that the boss?

Michael Franzese

Yeah, you know, the don is an expression that, you know, you hear from Italy, but the boss of the family can be considered the don.

Megyn Kelly

Okay. So thank you for walking me through this.

Michael Franzese

Yeah.

Megyn Kelly

Okay. So they made a movie about your life, and they reenacted the moment that you took the oath, which would have been in 1975. This is from the 2014 documentary profiling you. God, the father was the name. Here's a bit of that.

Salvatore 'Sammy the Bull' Gravano

If you ever violate the oath of La Cozo Nostro, are you burned in hell like the saint burning in your hands, your allegiance to La Casadostra is bound in blood. Should you ever violate this oath, your blood will be shed. You will keep the secrets and traditions you will hear and learn about. You will not violate another member's wife, sister, or daughter, or ever raise your hand against another member. And you will carry out every order given to you. A Cosa Nostra comes before anything and everything in your life.

Megyn Kelly

How accurate was that?

Michael Franzese

That was pretty accurate. You know, that's. That's the oath. And obviously they. They do, you know, shed a little blood. They prick your. Your finger and they have a knife there. They make a little slit, so. And then they burn a saint in your hands. And that's the oath. I mean, it's quick, but it's very serious.

Megyn Kelly

In Tridel, they spin you around three times and make you sing a song. It's different, but it's also similar.

Michael Franzese

A little different.

Megyn Kelly

Quite the initiation experience and different expectations. So you become a made guy now at this point, are you developing a family? Like, I would think? The more layers you have and the more connections to sort of regular society, schools and the bridge club, whatever, the more complicated this gets?

Michael Franzese

Well, yes. I mean, I was married young. I got married when I was 24. And that marriage lasted for a couple of years. I had three children in three years with my first wife. And I'M married now for 38 years with my wife Camille, and we have four more children, so I have seven altogether. But, you know, Megan, here's the thing that I've said, and I'm careful the way I said this. You know, I always call the mob life, the street life, the gang life. They're evil lifestyles. And I'm not calling the guys evil. I was one of them. I just happened to be very fortunate to be in the position I am now. But the lifestyle is evil because I don't know any family of any member of that life that hasn't been devastated. And I mean that, including my own now, not my wife and kids, I've been able to, you know, to spare them of that. But my mom was. My dad did 40 years on that, 50. My mom, she died in 2012. She was 33 years without her husband at the end of her life. I can only describe her relationship with my dad as being ugly because she blamed him for everything that went wrong in her life, and rightfully so. What went wrong? I had a sister, 27 years old, died of an overdose of drugs. A lot of turbulence in my household always, and it was a crazy lifestyle. She dies at 27. My younger brother, 25 years as a drug addict, when he. I can't even begin to tell you how many times I had to save his life and how much trouble he caused the family because of his drug addiction. Eventually, he got himself in trouble, cooperated with the government, wired himself up against my father, and he put my father back in jail on another case. And my dad was 92 years old when that happened. He was out on, wow, a son going against the father and another sister, you know, 20. I mean, she was 41 years old. She wasn't ever mentally stable. She grew up in this turbulence, didn't sit well with her. She passed away at 41. So my whole family was destroyed, and every family of every member of that life that I know is in a similar situation. So any lifestyle does that for a family is obviously a bad or an evil lifestyle. So, you know, it's. And you don't realize that going in. I didn't realize, hey, I'm going to go to jail for all these years and my family's going to be destroyed. I didn't think that way again. I had an idealistic view of the life. Even seeing what my father went through, I kind of pushed that out and said, well, that's not going to happen to me. Or if it does happen to me, I'll Deal with it. I was always type of guy that figured, hey, I can figure everything out and I'll deal with it, and somehow I'll make it work, work, you know, So I had that kind of an attitude. But, yes, it very, very rough on the families, no doubt.

Megyn Kelly

So your was your first brush with the law, Rudy Giuliani?

Michael Franzese

No, that was. Oh, gosh, that was way, way, way later on. I had.

Megyn Kelly

That was your last?

Michael Franzese

Yeah, that was. That was way late. I was in 84. I mean, my first brush with the law was with the Italian American. Italian American Civil Rights League. When we were picketing, I got in an altercation with a cop, and I hit him and they beat me up, and it was a mess. But I was like 20 years old when that happened. And then I had a bullseye on my back immediately because of my dad. I was arrested 18 times. I had seven indictments altogether. I had two federal racketeering cases, one state RICO indictment, and I had four other state of New York cases. So from the time I was 20 years old, I was getting arrested, getting indicted, fighting the law. It was just a lifelong battle for me.

Megyn Kelly

That's amazing. I mean, it's truly like racketeering. Giuliani, multiple indictments in New York. It sounds just like somebody who I know is the former president and likely to be potentially the next president Donald Trump, which we'll get to, because I know you get some insights on what he's going through. But this racketeering is a charge that was created so that federal prosecutors could get at mobsters who they hadn't been able to sort of sweep up in a big net of criminality. And I know you got caught in that. That net eventually. So you've got maybe 14 years there where you get arrested and you get out or you get some small punishment. Can you give me a flavor for how you were the. You were a racketeer, you weren't a gangster. What kinds of things were you doing? How are you paying the bills to where you were considered in that first group?

Michael Franzese

Well, you know, I. I was fortunate, I think, in that I understood how to use that life to benefit me in business. And, you know, I went on to make a very significant, significant amount of money, both legally and illegally. You know, I had two automobile dealerships legitimate. I had a Mazda and a Chevrolet agency. I had a leasing company. I had a couple of restaurants that I was involved in. I had a film production company at one point in time that actually we made about 30 films at the time and distributed them throughout the world. So I had a lot of legitimate things going on, but the biggest enterprise, or scam, whatever you want to call it, that I got involved in was the wholesale gasoline business. And in a nutshell, I devised a scheme, along with a partner, to defraud the government out of tax on every gallon of gasoline. And it was an operation we ran for about eight years. I had the Russian mob, guys from Brighton beach involved with me. I had about 350 gas stations I either owned or operated at that time, and I had 18 companies that were licensed to collect the tax on every gallon of gasoline. Height of our operation, we're selling a half a billion gallons of gas a month, and we're taking down 20, 30, 40 cents a gallon, whatever the market would bear at that time. So we're bringing in several million dollars a week.

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Week.

Michael Franzese

And that was. There were other guys doing it. You know, some of the Russians were doing it. But I think we perfected the system and lasted, you know, quite long. And we had a lot of other people that were trying to do it that were involved with us. So we. We created that scam. And it was, you know, people said it was the biggest scam since Prohibition, and I believe that. I don't think there was anything else because we weren't big drug dealers. And obviously when you talk drugs, you know, enormous money, but we weren't big drug dealers, despite what everybody says. Not true. When I took an oath, they told me straight out, you deal with drugs, you die. And we weren't allowed to touch it. And there were some guys doing it on the sly. Yeah, but we weren't major drug dealers, at least back during my era. So, you know, I was doing a lot of things, and I had a head for business, and I just kept plugging away.

Megyn Kelly

What do you do with the money? Do you turn it over to the family? Do you put it in a checking account?

Michael Franzese

Well, you know, we do both. I mean, I had to give up 25% of my. Whatever I earned how to go up the ladder to the family. And that's the deal that I made with the boss at the time. And then, you know, I had several bank accounts. I had bank accounts overseas that we wired money out to. I had a lot of cash at that time. I had a safe in my house. So, you know, different ways, and you wash money. When I was in the film business, I produced a couple of movies with, you know, gas tax money that I had cleaned up. So, you know, it became a chore, quite honestly, because we had so much money coming in. And we had to devise a system to get rid of it, basically, or to put it in places that was secure.

Megyn Kelly

Do you. Is it like the movies where you get in trouble if you're too flashy, if your wife buys a fur coat? You know, you're supposed to look like you're not making that kind of dough?

Michael Franzese

Well, you know, some guys, like my dad, I mean, he would drive around in a 1964 red Plymouth Valiant that my mother wouldn't even get into. I mean, he didn't want anybody to know what he was doing. In a way, I wasn't that way. I mean, look, I was earning money. So, I mean, I had a jet plane, I had a helicopter. I had houses in three parts of the country. You know, one house I built on two acres of land with a racquetball court and all of that. So. But I was making legitimate money. I was paying taxes at that time, too, so I was able to show that. But no, we didn't get in trouble for that. I mean, nobody told us how to live. You know, if there was something like in the movie Goodfellas and you had to lay low for a while, I mean, that was certainly a possibility, but I wasn't in that category.

Megyn Kelly

You mentioned that you made some movies, and it just so happens that the producer of this segment, Natasha, is a huge fan of one of your movies called Mausoleum. So she has queued up this. This little clip in part of the trailer for the audience in Satu.

Salvatore 'Sammy the Bull' Gravano

She gave her soul to the evil force in the mausoleum.

Megyn Kelly

What's the matter, Susan?

Salvatore 'Sammy the Bull' Gravano

What crook's danger?

Michael Franzese

Oh, my God.

Salvatore 'Sammy the Bull' Gravano

Now the secret haunts her and she cannot control the power.

Megyn Kelly

That looks amazing.

Michael Franzese

Megan, I gotta tell you the story behind this really quickly, all right? Especially if somebody, if you have there that loves the movie. I have a guy around me. It was a Jewish guy by the name of Jerry Zimmerman, very close to me. Loved the guy who's in the car business with me. Long story short, he gets himself in some very serious trouble, and I have to have a sit down with a maid guy from another family over Jerry. They wanted to kill him. And I really had to fight to keep him alive because he insulted some maid. Guys, you're not allowed to do that. Anyway, I clear him, right? But this guy was an old timer, the captain in the other family. And he was so incensed with this, I said, jerry, I don't trust this guy. Even though we got it clear, you could be walking down the street, a car Barrels into you. I don't know what's going to happen. I said, I want you to go out to California with your brother. He had a brother out here. And just stay there. Let me make sure this is okay. So he goes out about two months later, he calls me up. He says, hey, chief, we're going to be in the movie business. I said, what do you know about movies? He said, oh, don't worry about it. I got a script, I got a director. He says, send me $83,000 and you're my partner, right? I send him the money. P.S. this is the movie Mausoleum. A million dollars later, we produced that film that honestly didn't scare anyone but me after I saw what happened with it. But that was my intro into the business because we lost money on that film initially. But listen to this, especially for your worker there. All of a sudden, that film becomes a cult classic. And I've been earning money on that film for the last 30 years. Up until about three months ago, somebody came to me and said, I'll give you 50 grand to take it over. And I sold it to him, but I've been earning on it for 30 years after.

Salvatore 'Sammy the Bull' Gravano

It was amazing.

Michael Franzese

It was crazy. This business is so crazy. You never know what's going to happen.

Megyn Kelly

It's so rare to make movie, to make money off of the movies. It happens once in a million. So, okay, Mausoleum comes out. Now you're in the movie business. That's kind of exciting.

Salvatore 'Sammy the Bull' Gravano

And.

Megyn Kelly

And was there ever. Like you said, you met Frank Sinatra at the Copacabana. You know, how. How incestuous do you feel like Hollywood, the entertainment industry is with the mafia? Because, you know, there's all sorts of speculation.

Michael Franzese

Well, look, we had relationships there, for sure. I mean, there was, you know, agents that I was very close with. One in particular that's passed away now.

Salvatore 'Sammy the Bull' Gravano

But.

Michael Franzese

So, you know, Megan, I have to tell you this. A lot of people in the industry liked being around us. We didn't have to chase them and threaten them and do all of that. They enjoyed our company. Some of the guys, like, they love being around my father. I think people enjoyed being around to me because we carried ourselves a certain way. We weren't looking to put the arm on somebody all the time. And so they enjoyed being in business with us. And I don't have to tell you, in this business, if you can bring money to the table, people like you, I don't think they really care who you are, you know, in many cases. But, you know, so look, we did have Involvement. We didn't control the industry in any way. I wouldn't say that. But did we have, you know, presence there? Yes. Listen, did Joe Colombo absolutely have an impact on the movie the Godfather? 100%. I mean, I don't know if you saw that series, the Offer.

Megyn Kelly

Yeah, I actually am watching that right now.

Michael Franzese

Well, I thought it was brilliantly done. I mean, I really did. And a lot of it was true. You know, that was my era. I was there during all of that. And I was very close to Joey at that time. So a lot of it was very accurate. And, you know, he did have that control and he did have an impact. The word Mafia was taken out of the script, that's for sure. Joey did that. He did shut it down at some point, you know, with the union, and they did have to come back to him in order to continue production. So, you know, we did have influence.

Megyn Kelly

What about, you know, I realized the Mafia is not what it used to be. But when you're out there walking around as a civilian, what are the businesses you go by or you go into or you're like, probably connected?

Michael Franzese

Oh, gosh, well, unions, you know, for sure. And, you know, another myth. Another myth is that we sit in our social clubs and we target the next business that we're going to take over. Defraud, influence, whatever. Not always so. So often people from inside their company would come to us, hey, we have a way to defraud our company. We have a way to make some money. You know, you're going to protect us, you're going to give us money. You're never going to tell on us. So a lot of people from inside the company would come to us. Happened to me with General Motors, happened to me with Mazda, happened to me with GE Credit quite often. And that's how I got involved in some legitimate businesses. But, you know, look, unions, of course, you know, I'll tell you this, too. You know, people come to me about Donald Trump. Did Donald Trump deal with the mob and. Yeah, he did. And so did Helmsley and so did government, and so did anybody in New York that wanted to get that building made and had to deal with the unions. You just had to. And, you know, so does that. Does that make somebody in bed with the mob? No, you're just doing business. So, you know, yes, we had influence, you know, in the.

Megyn Kelly

What are the favorite businesses to, like, launder? Because for a very brief time when I was with Jones Day, the law firm I was with for many years, I did a little white collar Crime work, the opposite side. And I remember I took the deposition of this guy who was working for one of the crime families, and they were laundering money through these funeral homes. And I thought, my God, I would never have thought funeral homes would be a place where the mob would be in control, laundering money. But, you know, anything's like that. Did you have any familiarity with funeral homes or anything like it?

Michael Franzese

Yeah, one of my dear friends who's passed on now, he was a funeral director. He had a funeral home. So, yeah, it is a place you can watch money people pay with cash. Any place where people are paying with cash is a place to launder money. Restaurants, pizza ballers, obviously, places like that, because there isn't a really good accounting with that. And you can put a lot of cash through it and get a lot of cash out of it. So, you know, those were the kind of favorites. I mean, listen, in the. In the film business, nobody really did an accounting of where the money came from. So, I mean, I. I made movies with stolen gas tax money, right? Nobody.

Megyn Kelly

So you. And as you were rising in wealth and notoriety and, you know, you were succeeding, you were, you know, as we said in the intro, one of the most successful mobsters ever. You got featured. You. You weren't in the movie Goodfellas, but your name was used as one of sort of the big. When Ray Liotta was walking through the restaurant or going into the sort of the sea. This is where. Is this where he's taking his girlfriend out for a date? Like one of the first dates? I'm trying to remember. I haven't seen the clip yet, but I. Yeah, okay, so we'll play it. Because they mention your name in this. And he says, yeah, Mikey Franches. I saw him. Franzes watch.

Salvatore 'Sammy the Bull' Gravano

And then there was Pete the Killer, who was Sally Balls's brother. And you had Nicky eyes.

Megyn Kelly

What's up, guy?

Michael Franzese

And Mikey Francese.

Megyn Kelly

So that's supposed to be you. Were you surprised to see yourself featured in Goodfellas?

Michael Franzese

I was really surprised because, you know, I mean, I knew that crew very well. I knew Henry very well. I knew Jimmy Burke and Pauley Barrio, you know, was a dear friend of mine and the family's, but I was surprised because that was a different family. And Nick Pileggi, who was the writer, after I saw that, I called Nick up and I said, nick, why'd you throw me in there? He said, oh, Michael, you had name value and all that. And, you know, you knew all those guys. I said, yeah, but you could at least got them to say my name correctly, you know, so he laughed at me.

Megyn Kelly

Yeah, exactly.

Michael Franzese

But I was surprised. I didn't expect to see that.

Megyn Kelly

Okay, so eventually Rudy Giuliani does come into your life. And you know, Rudy Giuliani, we kind of know him much differently today. But he was, I mean, an absolute hero in many ways back in the day and cleaning up New York. And he was former federal prosecutor. He was, he was the U.S. attorney for the Southern District of New York, which is considered the most prestigious U.S. attorney post in the, in the country. And when he was young, he wasn't kidding around. He was, I mean, a true crime fighter and very focused on the mobile. And that put you in his crosshairs. So talk about that.

Michael Franzese

Well, yeah, he indicted me on a major racketeering case. I was a lead defendant And I had 15 co defendants. And it was a big, you know, shylocking case, you know, money extortion case, allegedly. And I was supposed to have financed a leasing company that was probably had 1500 legitimate loans on the street and about 30 Shylock loans. And I was the one that, you know, allegedly put up the money for that, which wasn't true. But anyway, so I get indicted and I'll never forget in the courtroom, you know, Rudy comes up to me and my attorney, John Jacobs at the time, and he says, Francis, if I convict you on this case, I'm giving you double what your father got. You're going to get 100 years. And you know, that's the kind of time they were giving us guys back then. And I remember standing toe to toe with him and I say, Rudy, bring it on. I beat you guys four times already. Let's go for round five. Which I always say is the dumbest thing to do. You know, you don't give them any more. Fortunately, after a several month trial in federal court Manhattan, I was acquitted in that case. And my coat of end, some of them got convicted, one of them got 30 years. So I would have got a lot of time, no doubt.

Megyn Kelly

That's amazing. I mean, that's downright scary. The only thing scarier than seeing somebody like you across from me angry would be somebody like that who really has the power to take your life away in a different way. And he could do it.

Michael Franzese

Well, I'll tell you, you got to give Rudy either the credit or the blame, depending upon what side you're on. He was the one that really used the racketeering laws effectively because it had been on the books for quite some time. They just didn't Use it. But he made it a tremendous weapon. And I say that RICO is the single most damaging tool that the government had to bring a lot of destruction to that life. And, you know, Rudy and I, I wouldn't say we were friends, but we certainly healed things. After 30 years. He actually wrote the forward in my book, which he did a great job.

Megyn Kelly

That's amazing.

Michael Franzese

Yeah, it really is. And you know what? He was a great mayor. I don't care what anybody says. He cleaned up.

Megyn Kelly

He was a great mayor.

Michael Franzese

He was great.

Megyn Kelly

Yeah, I know. It wasn't until he got, you know, connected with Trump and so on, and then he just started behaving very erratically. He was kind of not like his former self. But, yes, he wrote wonderful things about you in your book and talked about how when. When he first met you, his team was prosecuting you, that they took on the five families of New York's Mafia and won, and that they prosecuted you many times. But he goes on to say that. Hold on a second. I want to find it, that he got a little angry when he read articles about you in places like Fortune, the list of the 50 most wealthy and powerful mob bosses, Vanity Fair claiming you were the biggest moneymaker in the Mafia since Al Capone, which we referenced, but ultimately struck a deal with you. And really what he was saying in the foreword was that you ultimately had a conversion, and that while he was skeptical at first, he, knowing you all these years, actually came to believe it, that you were committed to changing your life, that you actually did find God, and that you were going to leave this life of crime behind you, which is the redemption part of your story, and it's extraordinary. So eventually, you did not escape Rudy's focus and tell us how you wound up going to jail.

Michael Franzese

Well, you know, after I was acquitted in the Giuliani case, several months later, I think not that long, three or four months later, I was indicted in Brooklyn on this whole gas tax scheme, among some other things. And, you know, the principal witness against me in the Giuliani case was. Would have been the principal witness against me in this next case in Brooklyn, this next RICO case. And we beat him. You know, in Rudy's case, they did. Jury didn't believe him. So the government was getting nervous now because I had beaten them. That was my fifth time that they tried to convict me at trial and were unsuccessful. So that was five failures on their part at the same time, Megan, I met my wife, who's now my wife for 38 years, and I basically started to think you know, I saw what was going on with the racketeering law. Guys were. When I was in mcc, when they locked me up without bail, there were guys going to trial, getting convicted, getting 100 years, 70 years, 150 years. I'm the youngest guy out of many of them. I said, they're gonna give me 300 years if I ever get convicted. This life is in trouble. I see guys starting to become informants. I meet my wife. I said, this is trouble. I got to try to make an exit here. And so I had leverage over the government because beating them in the Giuliani case gave me some leverage. So we negotiated a plea deal. I got a 10 year prison sentence, $15 million restitution, 5 million in forfeitures, and went off to do my time. And it was planning my exit at that time because I figured, hey, I do a bunch of years in prison, but I'd come out, I'd have parole and probably probation. I move out to the West Coast, I can't associate with anybody. When I was on parole, maybe after 10 or 12 years, the guys will forget about me and I can live happily ever after with my new life here in California. And that was my original plan. That's how I started to make the exit. Didn't work out exactly that way, but eventually it worked out well.

Megyn Kelly

Okay, but I got to ask you whether you ever considered, you know, flipping becoming a rat, as they say, because there must have been some sort of a deal that would have involved no jail time if you would have helped Rudy Giuliani, as opposed to just admitted you did some things.

Michael Franzese

Absolutely. They offered me, when I was taking the plea, they offered me no jail time, minimum jail time if I would cooperate, and I refused. They said, no, you know, I just want as part of the plea deal, I had not immunity, but they couldn't prosecute me for any of my past crimes other than murder. And I wasn't worried about that, so. Because I wanted to try to wrap everything up. But my plea deal was no cooperation whatsoever. I didn't talk to them, didn't do anything. What happened was, four years later, when I was doing my time, a fellow by name of Norby Walters got himself in some trouble. And he was my partner. I had given him 250,000 to be an agent for sports athletes. And long story short, he implicated me in some scheme while I was in prison. They brought me in to testify against him, and I said, listen, I don't know what he was doing. I was in prison. But yes, he was My partner, yes, I did give him money. And that's what I testified to. Well, after that happened and that was in Chicago, people from the eastern district came out to see me and they said, well, you're already a dead man. Now you. You got on the stand and you testified. I said, norby Wolf was my guy. He's not. Has nothing to do with anybody. He's my responsibility. Nobody's going to be mad at me for this. And said I chased him away. I said, I'm not cooperating with you guys. I got a few months left to go to be in prison. I'll do my time and come home.

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Michael Franzese

Megan, I made it. I said, I will never go against my associates and put anybody in prison. I can't do that. So I'm gonna be honest with you. And John Gleason verifies this in his book. I sat down and talked to them, but I basically was able to pull the wool over their eyes because what somebody had told me at the time and it turned out to be true. I was dealing with the strike force in the eastern district, and somebody told me they were gonna be disbanded. They said, michael, you can talk to these guys. It's never gonna go anywhere because they're gonna disband the strike force. And so when I started talking to them about certain things, a few months later, they disbanded the strike force and that was it. And they only had a year to talk to me after that. They couldn't talk to Me anymore. So it really worked.

Megyn Kelly

This is. Sorry, this. I thought. This is very interesting because I mentioned Sammy the Bull. And I mean, honestly, that was one of the most interesting interviews I have ever done. I mean, I have never had an interview before that had a line like, was that before or after the 19th murder? I mean, this is the conversation he and I had, and he put it all out there. It was absolutely riveting. And I know you guys together in a very interesting series Patrick, Beth, David did on the Mafia. Went on together. It got kind of heated. I know you guys. I think you get along, but in this particular moment, not so much. Here it is in SOT 6.

Salvatore 'Sammy the Bull' Gravano

You read it. He cooperated. He cooperated with the fucking government. Wanted to get on his fucking high horse. I didn't send somebody to prison. He met with the fucking government and ratted. You're a fucking rat.

Michael Franzese

Talk about respect. You want to talk like that?

Salvatore 'Sammy the Bull' Gravano

Point your fucking finger at me.

Michael Franzese

Oh, what are you gonna do?

Salvatore 'Sammy the Bull' Gravano

What am I gonna do? I'll break your fucking face.

Megyn Kelly

Oh, God. That I would not upset him. Just effort. Like, FYI, having researched him quite a bit, that's not somebody you want to upset. So he's calling you a rat. But isn't that what Sammy the Bull is infamous for? Well, among other things. Right, because he didn't have to serve jail time. Because he actually did turn. He turned on Gotti.

Michael Franzese

Well, he served a lot of jail time. I mean, they cut it short. But listen, Sammy and I are friends. We did get into a heated moment, and I understand what he was trying to do at the time. Time. But we patched it up after that because I don't know if you continue that. I got up and said, sammy, you're not the underboss anymore. Sit down. You know, so we kind of. And that's how we kind of ended it. But we've become friends since then. Listen, I'm not. He did, you know, look, I like his family very much. His son. His son calls me up and asked me how do I deal with my dad. He drive me crazy, you know, so it's.

Carl's Jr. Advertiser

It's.

Michael Franzese

Yeah, but we patch it up because, you know, we both came to realize, you know, it doesn't benefit either one of us by showing that side of that life where we're angry with one another and all of that. Because there was, you know, we'd rather show a different side of that life, even though it is what it is. But anyway, yeah, you know, look, Megan, for me, again, the bottom line is I didn't put anybody in prison. I didn't testify at any maid guys trial. I didn't do any of that. They tried to get me. They put me in solitary for three years, trying to break me. 29 months and seven days, actually. They were very upset with me. And John Gleason said it in his book about Gotti. He says, francis basically took us to the cleaners because we got nothing out of him. And, you know, look, but they can call me a rat or, you know, that's, that's, that's the most widely used term on all of this genre on, you know, the comments that you get and people that are on YouTube now. But, hey, look, well, that's the one

Megyn Kelly

that I have realized in the wake of my interview with Sammy. Like, you don't want to be called that. I mean, I, I know guys who I, I believe have some sort of a connection, who have said nothing to me ever, about any show I've ever done. But after Sammy the Bull came on, they started coming out of the woodwork. The guy's a rat. He's a rat. And I have always wondered, oh, God. You know, like, are they saying that because they're connected or they just understand the code? I don't know. But that seems to be something taking deadly seriously in the mob.

Michael Franzese

Oh, yeah. You know, and one of the things. This might be interesting. Joe Pistone, Donnie Brasco. Joe and I have become very good friends now. Now, I met him once on the street, and I always.

Megyn Kelly

Who went undercover and infiltrated the mob and was portrayed by Johnny Depp in a movie of the same name. Keep going.

Salvatore 'Sammy the Bull' Gravano

Correct.

Michael Franzese

Well, we became friends. He was on my YouTube. I did his, and Sammy and I got into a heat about that. He said, how can you befriend that guy? He put so many Italians away. And I said, hey, Sammy. I said, he was an undercover agent. He was doing his job. And he did his job better than we did ours. You don't get mad at a guy when they're not framing you, when they're doing their job and they outgun you. That's it. We used to tell agents on the street, hey, come after us. We get it. You're on one side, we're on the other. Just don't frame us, get us. Honestly, you have enough tools, enough weapons, you got all the money in the world and all the time, just come after us the right way and we're not mad. And, you know, look, Jopha Stone, I mean, what he did for six years, to be Undercover and not be noticed by our guys. That was a real failure on our part, number one. And number two, it was pretty heroic because at any point in time he could have walked into that room if somebody would have discovered something and he would have been in a lot of trouble. And it didn't turn out that way. So, I mean, I give him credit for the work that he did. And, you know, if I was on the street, I wouldn't be saying that. But, you know, just.

Megyn Kelly

Yeah, no, I mean, certainly from my vantage point, that guy's a hero. Right. It takes a lot of courage to infiltrate the mob and try to crime fight in that particularly dangerous manner. Just for the audience at home. Here's a clip from the movie Donnie Brasco where Al Pacino's character, Lefty, who's in the mob, meets Donnie, played by Johnny Depp, and tries to sell him a diamond.

Salvatore 'Sammy the Bull' Gravano

I'm asking you to middle a diamond for me. Now, all I want for my end is 8,000. What I'm saying to you is you should give it to somebody that don't know any better because that's a fugazi.

Megyn Kelly

All right?

Salvatore 'Sammy the Bull' Gravano

That's a fugazi. How do you know it's a fugazi? You looked at it for two seconds. Why? It's a fake. Yeah, I know what a fugazi is.

Megyn Kelly

What do you make of that? So you don't think that could have really happened or. I mean, I guess it did happen. He did infiltrate. And you're just saying that those guys were too careless, that they should have caught him.

Michael Franzese

Yeah, I mean, they should have did their homework and their research. Unfortunately, you know, when. When he presented himself as an earner, sometimes guys eyes, you know, open up and hey, I can earn money with this guy. And they get a little bit careless. And I do have to say this. That was Al Pacino. In my view, that was his best role. I knew Lefty fairly well and he just nailed. He nailed that character so well. He was just great, really great.

Megyn Kelly

What did you make of. You said you knew Henry Hill. That was the Ray Liotta character in Godfather. Godfather, Goodfellas. What did you think of that portrayal? Cause that was. I mean, I don't know. You know, everybody loves Godfather, including me, but Goodfellas was just such a riveting film where you couldn't. You were so pulled in by that character, Henry Hill.

Michael Franzese

I told you, I gotta get out of here and straighten out everything with

Salvatore 'Sammy the Bull' Gravano

Paulie or else I'm dead.

Megyn Kelly

Karen, then you're better off Staying in here, Karen. They could whack me in here just

Salvatore 'Sammy the Bull' Gravano

as easy as they can outside.

Michael Franzese

Maybe even easier.

Salvatore 'Sammy the Bull' Gravano

They're all afraid I'm gonna rat them out. People are already walking away from me.

Megyn Kelly

I'm dead in here. You gotta get me out.

Michael Franzese

Well, Megan, you know, Henry's gone now. And I knew Henry well. I had kind of an affection to Henry because when he did that whole Boston College betting scandal, he. He gave me some tips and I made some money at the time. But Henry never looked so good as he did in that movie, that's for sure. You know, and I can tell you this. He never walked into the back of the Copacabana without Paulie or somebody being with him, that's for sure. He didn't have that kind of prominence. You know, unfortunately, he had a drinking problem. He was an alcoholic and he got into drugs fairly early, you know, and he had that kind of problem. Look, he's. He would have got killed. There's no question about it. He wouldn't have lasted on the street because Polyvario was. Was pretty upset with him. So was Jimmy, you know, and he did what he did. But believe me, he was made to look great in that movie.

Megyn Kelly

I'll bet. Well, I mean, it was based on his book, right? Which I'm sure also made him look great. And then Hollywood takes it next level, so. And of course, Ray Liotta's gone, too, which is sad. What about these guys? You know, there's a question about whether any of them is actually in the mob, whether there's any sort of a connection, whether it's De Niro, Pacino. Did these guys have any sort of a relationship? I mean, for Sinatra. We've heard. We've heard, yes.

Michael Franzese

Well, you know, not that they were, like I said, part of a crew or anything like that. Did they have relationships? I mean, Pauly Sirico, I think you knew, He. You know, he was involved at one point in time, then became an actor. They all had relationships. Jimmy Khan was very close with my one time captain, with Andrew Russo. Very close.

Salvatore 'Sammy the Bull' Gravano

The.

Michael Franzese

What was his name? Oh, gosh. Lenny Montana, who played Luca Brasi in the Godfather, was very close with me. Very close, you know, and he was. We were together out here on the west coast before he passed away. So a lot of guys had relationships, but again, you know, we were all over the place. So we met with a lot of people and, you know, we had a lot of relationships. No doubt.

Megyn Kelly

So you find yourself in prison now, 10 years. And at the time you were in Prison. Your dad was still in prison, and their relationship broke down. Was that because of the thing you just told us about where you did wind up testifying in that one case? Is that what turned him on you?

Michael Franzese

No, it wasn't that. What happened was when I was in Terminal Island Prison out in California, and the warden had called me at the associate warden, I don't remember exactly, and said, there's a report that's doing a story on you in Life magazine. And I think 20 years earlier, they had done the biggest story ever on my dad in Life magazine. It was like 29 pages. It was on his murder case, and it was a huge story, right? So this reporter now is doing a story on me. So I'm in prison, and he tells the warden, if Michael talks to me, it'll be a better story. So I'm trying to make my exit. I'm trying to get the government off my back. I want to get out of there and have no trouble. I just married this young girl. So I sit down with him and I tell them standard mob stuff. There is no Mafia. I married this girl. I'm living out in the west coast, and all this kind of stuff. I'm done with anything back in New York. Well, the article comes out, and the warden calls me into the office. He says, francis, do you have a death wish? I said, what are you talking about? And he shows me the article, and it was a big double page with a picture of me, and on the top, quitting the Mafia. And I'm in jail with other mob guys. And this guy had me doing everything but testifying. At the time, it was really. And that's when word started to drop that, hey, maybe this guy is going bad. What's going on? Then the government comes in to see me again. You know, the feds come in and they say, francis, you know, this is a bad article. You better cooperate with us. We got word from our informants. People are upset with you. Then they. You know, what they did, Megan, it was really dirty. They put my name on the witness list of certain trials that were coming up in New York. I'm sending messages back to my dad. I said, dad, don't believe this. I'm not cooperating. But, you know, everybody says that. And then you see him on the witness stand or you get their info and discovery. I mean, that happened to me, you know, so they really, really tried to put a lot of pressure on me. At the time, my dad kind of backed off, but, you know, he never really totally backed off. You Know, Megan, what happened with me and my dad. Now, I'll summarize this. I got called into one of the horrors of that life. You make a mistake, your best friend walks you into a room, you don't walk out again. And obviously, throughout my years, I know when that's occurred. Well, I got that call because there was an article came out, I think it was in Long Island Press that I was becoming powerful enough to break away from the Columbus, start my own family. They had me making $2 billion a year was a total fictional article that no basis in reality at all. But I get called into a room one night and I was scared. I said, wow, the way the circumstances were, I thought, I can get killed walking into that room. That's how I felt. And I was scared. I'll be honest with you. You know, when you think you're going to meet your maker, it's scary. And I knew the life. And so I'm sitting down there and I'm getting grilled on how much money is coming in. $2 billion. And I said, hey, you know, they lie about everybody now. They make a story about me and it's true. I said, what are you listening to? I'm handing in everything. Well, my father wasn't there, but he was called in before me. And what I found out that night is that he didn't help me in that meeting. He actually hurt me. Because what he did, instead of standing up for me, he said, I'm on parole. I don't do anything. My son handles everything. If anything's wrong, I don't know. So he kind of threw me under the bus. And I can tell you this, Megan, I didn't meet my wife until two years later, but I really believed. I was stunned when I found that out. And it was true. Because I said, man, if this life can separate me and my dad, what do I really have here? And I just filed it away. I didn't say anything. You don't speak out of turn in that life, and you don't share your thoughts with people because you never know. But I can say this. If I didn't have that meeting, I don't think. I mean, if that didn't occur, I don't think I would have ever walked away from the life. Because I think that bond between me and my dad had to be broken. And I had to get a sense of reality. And, you know, I didn't hate him for it. When it finally came that he confronted me on it because he read it in my book, I Wasn't going to say anything, but then it was such an impact on my life. I said, no, I have to be honest about this. So I put it in my book. That's where he read, and he denies it. And I said, dad, remember, you taught me something in life? He said what? He said, no matter what, deny, deny, deny, deny, deny. I said, and I know you're denying this now, but it's okay.

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I love you.

Michael Franzese

I'm not. Not mad. I get it. I understand. But that had such an impact on me that I think two years later, when I met my wife, that's what really kind of put the, you know, the icing on the cake, as they say, for me to walk away.

Megyn Kelly

Did your dad. Because he had last we left off in his story, he was going to jail until he was 100. So you say he's on parole. What happened? Did he get out?

Michael Franzese

Yeah, he gets out at. In 2017 at the age of 100. He was the oldest inmate in the 70s system at the time. And my dad passed away at 103 during the pandemic. He was the oldest living mob guy for sure at that time, and probably. Probably the oldest guy in the world. Guys don't live to that age in that life. It's not conducive to a long lifestyle.

Megyn Kelly

Right, Right.

Michael Franzese

Yeah, it was amazing. And, you know, we patched it up. I mean, I stayed with him, visited him during. During that time. The relationship was never exactly the same, but he accepted what I did because he knew I never hurt anybody. And, you know, there was another situation came up, Megan, where, you know, a guy became an informant, and the feds came to me again. He implicated me in some things, and they wanted me to cooperate with him. And I said no. And I told my father, I said, dad, look, if I were to cooperate, a lot of guys are gonna go down. I'm not gonna do that. Just tell them to leave me alone, because I had people upset with me. There was a contract on my life from my former boss because he took it very personal. When I walked away, he was really upset with me. But that backed everybody off because I said, I'm not hurting anybody. Just leave me alone. I just want to be on my own.

Megyn Kelly

Because nobody leaves the mob like you. Stay in it till you're dead one way or the other. And you found a way out. Talk about threading the needle. So I know you've spoken about. When you were in jail, there was a prison guard who walked by your cell and gave you something that I think was the beginning of your transformation. What was it?

Michael Franzese

Well, yeah, I mean, I had done five years. I'm out on parole 13 months. Worst 13 months of my life. People are trying to hurt me. Feds were all over me. I'm trying to get my life reorganized in la. I was like a fish out of water, quite honestly. And like a fool, I violate my parole and the government was really on me and they locked me up again. And that first night they tell me, we're going to indict you on another racketeering case. We violated your parole. You'll never see the street again. This is what they told me. And they throw me in a hole in MDC in la and they're going to transport me back to Brooklyn in the morning. And quite honestly, Megan, it was the worst night of my life because I said, wow. I said, another case. What are they bringing up now, number one? Number two, I'm married to this girl. She waited for me five years. We have two little babies. She's 27 years old. I'm going to lose the girl. I did all of this right. I said, they can't put me out on the yard. There's people talk to, people want to kill me. I'm going to spend the rest of my life in a 6 by 8 cell, having visited my dad for 20 years and seen what it did. I said, you know what? I wish I could just close my eyes and not wake up. And that's how I felt. And you know, honestly, I used to demean people that were suicidal. I was called them weak, can't face up to their troubles. I don't do that anymore. Now, I wasn't suicidal that night, but I can understand how you can reach a low point in your life. Where is it worth even going forward now? Of course I dissuade anybody from suicide, but I know how that feeling was. That's how I felt that night. And yeah, a prison guard walked by my cell and he says, francis, you okay? You don't look good. And I chased him away. I said, get away from me, Leave me alone. I don't want to see any of you guys tonight. And he came back with a Bible and pushed it through the slide on the door. And I spent the next 29 months and seven days in solitary, six by eight cell, 24, seven, me and God. And it was during that time, Megan, that I not only studied my Bible inside out and upside down, I had my wife send me in several books. And on every faith, I was studying every faith Because I said, if I'm going to spend the rest of my life in this cell, I want to know where I'm going at the end of it all. And I just came out of there strongly believing in Christianity.

Megyn Kelly

Wow. That guard was like an angel. I mean, truly, like, delivering the word of God to you. And it doesn't always happen, but it took like, you heard it and you acted on it. It changed you. So would you say you know, you because you met Camille, who I know has been such a game changer in your life. You know, between Camille, the Bible, a renewed faith, or maybe a brand new faith in God, how then did you come to see this other version of yourself, this other possibility for how your life could be?

Michael Franzese

Well, you know what I found out? There's two things in life that are so important. Number one is I always say this, and I try to mentor a lot of young people. I go into prisons and juvenile halls and spoke at many men's ministries. And I told them, you are who you hang out with in this life. If you hang with the wrong crowd, you want to be the wrong type of person, and they will influence you. I'm on the street. Obviously, I was influenced, and that's the person who I was. And I'm not blaming the others. I'm just saying that's we're all in the same boat in that regard. And secondly is accountability is everything in life. Who you are accountable to is going to dictate the path that you serve in your life on the street. Accountable to my oath, my God, my. My boss, I was a criminal. So when I come out now, I'm accountable to God first, accountable to my wife and children, not to screw up. So I end up back in prison. Because I will say this. Look, you can take the boy out of Brooklyn. You can't always take Brooklyn out of the boy. There's a lot of times when I could react the wrong way because I still have certain instincts inside of me, but I catch myself most of the time, and I say, no, I can't do that, because I'm jeopardizing the people around me, the people that I love. And so I don't want to make a mistake. It's like, look, I'll say this. And I say this in church, Megan. I have no moral issue whatsoever. We're taking money from the government in taxes. No moral issue whatsoever. Because I can do better with the money now than they can. No doubt about it. They throw all money in a toilet half the time. But I won't do it because I'm not going to jeopardize my freedom again. I'm not going to jeopardize my wife and kids and my grandkids. So you just have a different outlook and outlook. And I believe, you know, in Christianity, we believe that we're changed from the inside out. When you develop a relationship with the Lord, he's changing you from inside out. It's not your work on the outside that's doing it. And that's why it's so important to be nourished. It's so important to, you know, to read the word as often as you possibly can. You can never get enough of it and hang out with people that have the same beliefs as you. And that's what's done it for me. I mean, I don't attribute it to my work. I think I'm probably the most fortunate, most blessed person around, because I should either be dead or in prison for the rest of my life. That's what I earned.

Megyn Kelly

But for sure, I feel like you're like your dad. You're, what, 71 years old now. You look amazing. You look young. You seem vibrant, like you probably have another 30 years at least, but it's probably related to your good choices in your second half.

Michael Franzese

Yeah, I think I'm 72 and, you know, my wife, I have five daughters and two sons. Well, my daughters are all fitness crazy. I mean, they're fitness experts and personal trainers. My wife, that's been her lifestyle, so they don't allow me to get off track in that regard. So. Yeah, and I think we have some good DNA. I mean, my dad was one of 19 kids, and all of the kids died in their late 80s, 90s. My dad outlived them all. But, you know, so we have some good DNA also. So, you know, I think that's part of it. So you just got to watch yourself.

Megyn Kelly

All right, I got to ask you this, because I know you're on the straight and narrow now and you. You found God, but do you ever have the moment, you know, where you have, like, the nasty clerk at the store or what, where you're like, if you. If you only knew, like, just, just, you know, like, just watch it.

Michael Franzese

Oh, absolutely, Megan. It happens quite a bit. And let me tell you something.

Megyn Kelly

Yes, it would have to keep going.

Michael Franzese

Oh, my gosh. I'm on social media, and some of the comments that come in, you want to, like, jump through the computer at him, you know, and get a. But it's crazy stuff.

Megyn Kelly

I do know.

Michael Franzese

I Have those moments, you know. Absolutely. It's like I said, you don't, you know, you don't get a lobotomy when you come to Christ. You just, you just try to, you know, tailor your behavior the right way and you know, and I think older, when you get older too, you start to calm down a bit at least. I don't know about Sammy, but me,

Megyn Kelly

yeah, he like, I couldn't believe he talked. He had a very different experience, as you know, because he was murdering a lot of people. And he talked to us about the story, the first murder he committed. And it was someone he knew, it was someone he was kind of close to. We actually pulled the clip. I'll play it, it's top five.

Salvatore 'Sammy the Bull' Gravano

Because I never thought about killing people, but I went through with it. We did it one night, we went out to after hour clubs. We got in the car about 4 o' clock in the morning and as we drove away, I shot him in the back of the head twice. I didn't feel any remorse. I didn't feel anything. And I thought that was peculiar. I thought, either something's wrong with me or I'm just a stone cold killer and I'm going to fit in the mafia perfectly.

Megyn Kelly

Such an interesting man. And I asked him, Mike, you know, what do you ever think about God, Heaven, judgment? And he said, God made me a lion. He made me the way I am. I've thought about it so many times. I've talked to my friends about it. Like there's, I've done so many interviews, of course, right. Like it takes a lot for one to stand out and for obvious reasons has dead. But how do you factor that in? You know, your redemption, your relationship with Christ now and atonement,

Michael Franzese

you know, Megan, again. And I've thought about this quite a bit and I had a very interesting meeting with Jordan Peterson, who is so analytical, brilliant. And he asked me, you know, he delved, he said, michael, how did you do certain things that you did? And I said, well, you know, Jordan, I didn't feel good about it. I said, but I knew I had to do it. So I would kind of step outside of myself and handle what I had to handle very efficiently and then come back to who I was. And Jordan looked at me and he says, well, how do you know who's the real you? And I said, whoa. I said, you know what, Jordan? That's a good question. I never thought of that. But that's how I dealt with certain things that were uncomfortable for me to do. But the Fact that you're able to do them. I don't know what that says, Megan, quite honestly, but, you know, the last thing that I was going to have anybody say about me was that I didn't perform or I didn't follow an order or I didn't do what I was supposed to do. So that's how I dealt with it. Differently than Sammy, obviously. But look, there was guys in that life. You know, I say this all the time. You talk about a Roy demeo. I'm sure you heard his name. Maybe a Greg Scarpa. These were serial killers. They were serial killers. They would have been killers even if they weren't in the Mafia. The Mafia didn't turn them into that. That's who they were. You can't be that kind of person and say, well, the mob made me do it. No, you gotta be that person. And obviously the experience might be enhanced because that's a lifestyle that things like that occur. But it didn't make you that way. That's who you were. And I think. I think was. He just summed it up. He said, I'd be perfect for the Mob, but this is. He figured that out, that this is who he was and he'd be a perfect guy to be in that life.

Megyn Kelly

For the listening audience, that was episode 352 from July of 2022, if you want to go back and listen to it. 3, 5, 2. So. So then. So you've been out of prison now, by my count, some 30 years. You've maintained a life on the up and up, created a whole family. You're a motivational speaker. So what are the big takeaways for you? You know, and you talk to people in these motivational speeches. When you talk to your grandkids, like, what are the biggest things you've learned from this life?

Michael Franzese

Well, you know, when you're determined and you have the right support, you know, the right people around you. And obviously, for me, it's also a faith issue. You can come out of a bad situation. It's not easy. And, you know, I may have had an advantage because, like I said, I surrounded myself with the right people. But I think the message that resonates all the time, and I've done probably over 2000 speaking engagements, is that if I came out of a tough situation, you can also. And that's what people want to hear. They love a redemption story. Many people are struggling out there, and it doesn't matter what walk of life. I've spoken to the most affluent people, and then obviously, People that, you know, are in almost poverty stricken themselves and everybody is struggling with something and they want to know how to overcome it. And I think my story resonates in that regard because people do believe you don't walk away from that life without entering a witness protection program and going through the whole, you know, ordeal that you have to go through. And the fact that I was able to do that, you know, raise a family, have a wife and children, have a career and a profession, I think it's motivating to people.

Megyn Kelly

Yeah.

Michael Franzese

And, you know, it's amazing, you know, no matter where I go, you know, I always open it up, or quite often I should say open it up for a Q and A. And you would think all the stories are. All the questions, rather, are mob related. They're not. The questions are, how did you do this? How did your wife react? Why did she stay with you? What about your kids? What kind of an impact did it have on them? You know, so I understand that so many of the questions become personal, the reason being because those people are either dealing with something in their life or they know somebody that's dealing with something.

Megyn Kelly

You know, that's a good point. And it's really one of those, like, no matter what you're dealing with, it's almost guaranteed. It's not quite as tricky as what Michael was dealing with. I mean, very, very tricky to get out of the mob with your life secured and return to your family and a life above board, you know, without crossing that criminal line after so many years on the opposite side. It's a magician type move. What about today? I mean, the Mafia was really undermined by prosecutors like Rudy Giuliani, but it's not gone. So how do you. How is it today? Do you know? And you know, what's its status?

Michael Franzese

Well, I can tell you, you know, I always say this. The golden years of Cosa Nostra Mafia in this country, really, from the late 40s, early 50s, right through to the mid-80s, when again, we know it happened. And, you know, there was a time when I was in New York Daily News, New York Post, New York Times News day, every single day or every other day, story about the mob, without a doubt, one family or another who's getting busted every other day. Now I read the New York Post every morning, maybe every six months. And as a matter of fact, I think last week 10 guys got busted or something like that. So they've gone undercover. It's not nearly what it was during my time. I know that for a fact. But it seems like they're getting smarter. You know, you don't hear too many guys on surveillance tapes and things like that. It's not going to go away in my lifetime. But, you know, another thing I've learned, things happen in patterns. When I was on the street, they had 1400 agents that were assigned to all five families. We had 750, approximately maid guys, guys that took the oath. You had almost two agents for every maid guy. Now I believe there's less than 100. Why? Because terrorism has become, you know, more important right now and the focus on that. So when things like that happen and some of the heat comes off, these guys are pretty resourceful and they start to build up again. And then there'll be a time, possibly when they come down hard again because we're seeing the government is seeing more impact that the guys on the street are having. I don't know. This time it might be that it was seriously wounded to the point where it'll never recover to what it was before. But I don't sell them short. I'm not saying it's over, but that's the pattern that I see that I've seen occur over the years.

Megyn Kelly

And last but not least, Rudy Giuliani. We talked just a bit. I made a reference to how his public image has changed. There's no question he has changed himself personally. He's had some personal problems, but many of us remember what he did in New York and how he behaved after 9, 11, and what kind of a mayor he was and factor all of that in and sizing up his legacy. How do you see it?

Michael Franzese

Well, again, for me, I don't look too much at what's going on currently in politics with him. I just know that he was a tremendous prosecutor at the time. Again, he was my enemy, but you have to give him his due. He did what he said he was going to do, and he used the laws very, very effectively. And more than that, for me, his legacy was the mayor of New York. You know, when I got violated and the marshals came and picked me up and they were bringing me into to get in front of the judge was in the early 90s. It was 91, I think. We were in the car and they said, mike, we got a little time before we have to appear in court. What do you want to do? I said, well, I've been out in New York for a while. I said, I want two things. I'd like a cup of Dunkin Donuts, coffee, and let's go around Manhattan I haven't seen in a while. And I could not believe Times Square and how Rudy had cleaned it up. I mean, I grew up with that being smut city. And I was, like, amazed that I said, wow, this guy really did do a job here, you know. So I was fascinated by that, you know. So that's, to me, that's his legacy. I look at, you know, him as a prosecutor, the job that he did, and the mayor of New York. And of course, after 9 11, he was tremendous. So to me, that's how I remember him.

Megyn Kelly

Thank you so much for telling your story and for finding a way forward and setting the example for others who have struggled in any number of ways. All the best to you.

Michael Franzese

Well, Megan, thanks for having me. And like I said, I've been watching you since your days in Fox and I appreciate just your honesty and the way you, you know, you just carry yourself and bring things out. It's, for me, it's, it's really a joy to see. So thank you.

Megyn Kelly

Oh, I'm flattered. It's so nice to meet you. To be continued.

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Michael Franzese

Yeah.

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Megyn Kelly

We have a fascinating program for you today, one filled with crime, murder, money and betrayal. Today we're talking to one of the most infamous mobsters in American history, Salvatore Gravano, otherwise known as Sammy the Bull. To understand his story, we have to take a step back in time to the early 1970s, when the Godfather hit the big screen and changed the perception of The Mafia in America.

Salvatore 'Sammy the Bull' Gravano

You spend time with your family?

Michael Franzese

Sure I do.

Salvatore 'Sammy the Bull' Gravano

Good. Because a man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man. You look terrible. I want you to eat. I want you to rest well. And a month from now, this Hollywood big shot's gonna give you what you want.

Megyn Kelly

It's too late.

Salvatore 'Sammy the Bull' Gravano

They start shooting in a week. I'm gonna make him an offer he can't refuse.

Megyn Kelly

At about that same time, Gravano, a kid who grew up without mob connections in his family, slowly eased into a Cosa Nostra and made his first kill. Over the course of the next two decades, Sammy the Bull would rise up the ranks of New York's notorious Gambino crime family, raking in millions upon millions of dollars and repeatedly killing. He is admitted to 19 murders in all, including his own brother in law, his best friend and the Gambino family mob boss Paul Castellano in 1985.

Salvatore 'Sammy the Bull' Gravano

Deadly messages from organized crime to organized crime and the rest of society. The murder of Gambino crime family boss

Megyn Kelly

Paul Castellano Yesterday or the 1979 assassination

Salvatore 'Sammy the Bull' Gravano

of Cosa Nostradan Carmine Gallenti.

Michael Franzese

Unsolved very public executions by an underworld that plays by their own rules and

Salvatore 'Sammy the Bull' Gravano

their own code of justice. The Castellano murder, particularly brazen and defiant since Castellano was killed.

Michael Franzese

Gunned down a day before he was

Salvatore 'Sammy the Bull' Gravano

to resume standing trial for auto theft and murder, organized crime had served up its own sentence.

Megyn Kelly

By the late 1980s, the new Don John Gotti had named Sammy the Bull his right hand man. Gotti himself with a was a ruthless mobster and media darling who dressed in expensive suits and enjoyed the finer things in life, earning him the nickname the Dapper Don. He also repeatedly escaped conviction with, as it would turn out, Sammy's help. Which we'll get to earning him another nickname, the Teflon Don. Remember how they use that about Donald Trump? Well, it was first about John Gotti. But in 1991, everything changed. John Gotti and Sammy the Bull were behind bars facing a slew of charges when Sammy. Sammy decided to flip and do the unthinkable. Cooperate with the feds. At the time, he was the highest ranking gangster to break his blood oath, earning him the ire of mob aficionados who dubbed him a rat.

Salvatore 'Sammy the Bull' Gravano

Not since Joe Valachi in the 60s

Megyn Kelly

has such a high ranking member of

Salvatore 'Sammy the Bull' Gravano

the mob turned traitor. Sammy the Bull Gravano now joins the ranks of those who have broken the cardinal rule of the Mafia omerta. The code of Silence.

Megyn Kelly

Sammy's testimony helped send John Gotti away for good.

Salvatore 'Sammy the Bull' Gravano

The Teflon is gone.

Michael Franzese

The Don is covered with Velcro, and every charge in the indictment stuck

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and

Megyn Kelly

resulted in dozens of other mobsters going to prison as well. One top FBI agent says that testimony by Sammy led to the demise of organized crime in New York. Since then, there have been numerous books and movies made about the Gambino crime family. And while some may still consider Sammy a rat, hundreds of thousands of people are curious fans of his subscribing to his podcast, launched right around the time Our Own did, called Our Thing, which is what Cosa Nostra means. In fact, his YouTube channel alone has more than 77 million views. Sammy the Bull Gravano, welcome to the show. Thank you for being here.

Salvatore 'Sammy the Bull' Gravano

Thank you. Thank you. It's a pleasure.

Megyn Kelly

So let me start with this. After that background, how are you still upright, right? Like, how are you still walking around on two feet?

Salvatore 'Sammy the Bull' Gravano

Well, the Mafia changed quite a bit. It doesn't do certain things, and people understand the story. What happened, that word rat, I mean, they use that. They do that all the time. But in my case, I was offered that position to cooperate a bunch of times. I was arrested all my life. I never cooperated. I was facing life in a number of different cases. But when it came to John Gotti, I was arrested in 1991 with him. And after 11 months, the worst 11 months I've ever done in prison. I've been in prison 22 years of my life. But he wanted me to take the weight so he can go free. He was going to back up the tapes that the government had. And most of those tapes were all lies about me killing union people and taking over or killing my partners and taking over. None of that was true. But he thought that he would have the lawyers back up those tapes and turn around in a way to say, well, you hear John complaining about him, it's not. John Poor. Would be set free and I would go to prison. He had the balls to actually tell me this to my face. And that's when I walked away from him. The Mafia. And whatever would happen would happen. I wasn't afraid of it.

Megyn Kelly

Now I understand. Well, and let me just jump in because we'll get to that in detail in just a bit. But. And I. And what you're basically saying is that you. You felt he was going to sell you out up the river, and you sold him up the river first. But is that why you don't think anybody has tried to seek retribution? I Mean, I understand there's been at least one attempt on your life since your testimony against him, allegedly by a family member of John Gotti's. But is that it? Because you did witness protection, you did all that. I can't imagine nobody else has tried to come get you.

Salvatore 'Sammy the Bull' Gravano

Well, there was a team that came down when John Gotti was away. Peter Gotti, his brother, became the boss. He put together a team to come down and kill me. They found me. They were afraid to even come near me. And they were. They devised all kinds of plans. A bomb, then this thing that spins around and shoots shotgun shells. And that didn't work. Nothing worked. And I got arrested again in 2000, February of 2020. It didn't get done. When I got arrested, I had. In my apartment, I had five guns, four guns planted in different places. In my kitchen, in my bathroom, my living room. I expected them to come down. And I had one on me all the time. I was actually waiting for it to happen. And they worked with mateys, with people. Some people were my crew. One of them was my brother in law, Eddie Garofola. And they knew me and they knew I wouldn't run from it. And they were cowards. They didn't make the move. They were afraid to make the move. And I got well, once I went in prison again, that part of it was over. So there was an attempt. Excuse me. They found me, but it didn't work out for them. It worked out for me.

Megyn Kelly

As I said, you're doing a podcast now, and so on. Are you at all in hiding? I mean, is it something that. Do you need to keep your whereabouts unknown?

Salvatore 'Sammy the Bull' Gravano

No, I think the whole country knows where I am. I'm not in hiding. Listen, I went into the witness protection program. I didn't want to go into the program. I had money, I didn't want to go in. I did only five years on my first hit, my first pinch. And the government begged me to go in, that they would look terrible if I refused and didn't go in. And we had meetings and they said, you know, you got a great sentence. Give us something. Come into the program. I agreed to go into the program for a year. I did eight months in the program. Something came up. A woman recognized me and they wanted me to start over again. I said, no, I'm not starting over again. I promised a year. I'll give you a year. There's four more months. It didn't. They wanted to start over. And I quit and walked away. I went to Phoenix where my family was. And I stayed there for about another four and a half years before I got busted again. Since I got out, I got out in 2017, this all started. My wife, my daughter did a book. I did a book when I got out in 96, and she wanted to do a book. We couldn't sell the book. And then somebody came to her about a podcast and she said, would you work for me and because we're divorced, and give me the right to use you to do a podcast? And I said, of course I'll help you. And I start. That's how I started. A year after that, maybe a little bit more than a year. Two years after that, my son put me on Facebook. A little while after that, he put me on YouTube. Unbeknownst to me, I didn't even know it. My phone, I was getting all kinds of calls, and my son left one day and said, I put you on Facebook. I put you on YouTube. And that's what the calls are about.

Megyn Kelly

Oh, my goodness.

Salvatore 'Sammy the Bull' Gravano

So I just stayed on that and I continued the podcast on that, and it grew to big numbers. I'm almost at a half a million subscribers, And I got 77, 78 million views. And now I'm doing a whole bunch of other things.

Megyn Kelly

And a lot of. I was reading and preparing for this. A lot of men and women in law enforcement, in particular FBI agents, watch and listen to the podcast and the YouTube show because they say it's fascinating. They've never been able to get this sort of an insight into a real life mobster's thinking. And you talk openly about the crimes that were committed by yourself, by others. A lot of these guys who were covering you or on you back then are listening, thinking, oh, my God, this is helping me put things together. So it's just the. All around. Obviously you have immunity now for those crimes, given the deal you struck with the government. But it's a fascinating thing to think about the FBI agents who once tracked you and guys you worked with now listening to you and are fans of the show. I mean, actually fans of the show. So wait, let me pause you there, and let's go back. Let's start with you as a kid, because as I mentioned in the intro, you were not raised in a family where your dad was in the mob and your granddad was in the mob. This was not foretold, as I understand it. Your dad was fairly successful. You had a. A nice family. And it wasn't. You had some difficulties as a child, but it wasn't Related to anything in terms of crime or the mob?

Salvatore 'Sammy the Bull' Gravano

No. My mother and father were totally legitimate. My mother was a seamstress. My father was a painter. Back then they used to use lead in paint. Got lead poisoning, had to stay away from painting. My mother got an offer from a Jewish contractor. She would go and make the clothes, women's clothes. And the guy told her, katie, you're great. Open up a little factory and I'll get you work. If you could produce the quality of work that you do, we'll give you our work. And that's exactly what she did. My father jumped in with her to help her and they worked together. They had a dress factory and that's what they did. I had two sisters. Neither one of them had anything to do with the mafia, boyfriends or anything. One of my brother in laws was an engineer. The other brother in law was a plumbing contractor. Later on he became in the mafia with me. He became a made member. But before that, before I was in the mafia, I had no relation to the Mafia whatsoever. But in Bensonhurst, Brooklyn, it was saturated with the mafia. So it was on every street corner. It was around as a kid growing up, I was dyslexic. I didn't do good in school. I got left back in the fourth grade, the seventh grade. I had nothing but problems in school. I got thrown out. I never got past the eighth grade. And I was in a gang. And we stayed away from the mafia. We knew who they were, we knew they were dangerous, so we stayed away from them. It was us against the world and we didn't want nothing to do with the mafia. And at 19 years old, I got drafted and I went into the military during the Vietnam War. I spent two years there. And when you were drafted, you got two years. If you joined, you had to do three. I did two. I came out and went right back into a gang.

Megyn Kelly

And can I just ask you that why? Why? Because I would think, I would like to think that a couple years in the army would instill a moral code in you that would give you some pause about going back into a life of crime.

Salvatore 'Sammy the Bull' Gravano

Well, it wasn't into a life of crime. It was back into being in the gang. I mean, that's what I knew. The only thing I knew, I was taught how to kill and how to do things in the military. And I would have killed people to protect the country. They gave us that bullshit that it was communism was coming here, they're going to rape your mother, your sisters. And so I was brainwashed. A Little bit by the government. I mean, I never met a bad Vietnamese person. The only people I know who are Vietnamese do my nails or my toenails, and they just seem to be nice people. I've never met Vietnamese people in prison, so maybe they're good crooks. So I think the whole thing was bullshit. So I went right back into the. Into a gang. But unbeknownst to me, while the two years I was gone, most of my friends hooked up with different Mafia families, and they were hooked up with somebody. One of my friends, Tommy Spiro, said, my uncle wants to talk to you. His name was Shorty Spiro. He was in a notorious crew, Carmine Persico. There was a war going on at that time between the Gallows and the Profaci, and there was different sides. The war stopped for a while. So when I got hooked up with them, there was no war going on. I knew sooner or later they killed people that I would be called. That's where I did my first murder. It's a long story. I would tell you if you want to hear it, but I did my first piece of work there. And then Shorty, after that, had told me, sammy, go get your clothes. Joe Gallo had come out of crazy. Joey Gallo came out of prison. He said, go get your clothes. We're going to hit the mattresses. I didn't even know what that meant back then. It wasn't a million movies. And he said, they're a pack of wolves. We're a pack of wolves. We're going to live together. If you have a girlfriend, get rid of her. If you got a job, stop. You're going to live with us 24 hours a day, seven days a week. And we're going to hunt them. They're going to hunt us. And that's what you have to do from this point on.

Megyn Kelly

And that's the beginnings of your. Your time in organized crime. That wasn't just the gang. That was one of the five New York crime families.

Salvatore 'Sammy the Bull' Gravano

Yes, it became the Colombo. It was a Profaci family. Profaci died, and they made Joe Colombo the boss. So when I got in, Joe Colombo was the boss. My first hit was ordered from Joe Colombo to Carmine Persico to Shorty to me. And it was somebody in our crew who was plotting to kill Shorty and me. And his wife was having an affair with Shorty's nephew, and he devised a plot to kill Shorty and me to cause confusion. A couple of months later, six months later, he would kill Tommy Spiro. He went to somebody, Frankie, who was in the crew and asked for his help. Frankie, instead of helping him, went to Shorty and told him about the plot. That's how the whole thing happened.

Megyn Kelly

Now, just to take a step back, you mentioned you had dyslexia as a kid and you didn't make it past the eighth grade. And I know that there were some bullies in your life as well. And one of those incidents led to your nickname Sammy the Bull. They tried to steal your bike. You didn't go, let it go peacefully. You were scrappy, and these mobsters saw you fighting and said, look at this kid. And they nicknamed you Sammy the Bull. Now, jumping forward now to this point, you may have stood up to bullies, but you didn't go to Vietnam when you were serving in 1964. So you hadn't killed anybody, whether in a military uniform or otherwise at this point. So when they say to you, you're going to kill this guy, is it, you know, is it scary, is it frightening, is it daunting? Or is it all business at that point, even as a young man at this point?

Salvatore 'Sammy the Bull' Gravano

Well, it was scary. I had a couple of incidents that were scary that I was going to would have used the gun. I never did. But when that came, I knew it would come sooner or later. So the story, I heard the story, what it was. I thought I was being bullshitted a little bit, you know, that the guy wanted to kill me. I couldn't understand why he wanted to kill me. I had nothing to do with his wife and an affair, but he had this stupid little plot, like I just said. And when they gave me the order, they said, who do you want to come with you? And I said, your nephew, Tommy Spiro. He created this monster. And then I wanted the guy Frankie, because I couldn't understand why he didn't tell me. And I wanted to be able to talk to him about that. So they put those two people on the hip with me. And you know, I watched a movie one time and it's a person who was about to kill and he was sweating and scared and all of this stuff. I thought that's what happens to you before you commit this kind of a crime. Because I never thought about killing people. But I went through with it. We did it one night. We went out to after hour clubs. We got in the car about 4:00 in the morning, and as we drove away, I shot him in the back of the head twice.

Megyn Kelly

You were in the back of the car?

Salvatore 'Sammy the Bull' Gravano

I was in the back seat.

Megyn Kelly

Where was he?

Salvatore 'Sammy the Bull' Gravano

He was in the front seat, the passenger seat. And when we went to a spot, we went out of the neighborhood. We pulled into a. Like a nice community. It was. It was miles away from Brooklyn, Rockaway, and they had nice homes with lawns, and it's quiet. We drove over there. I took him, I picked him up out of the car and I put him on the street, the sidewalk. I got in the car, I opened the window, I put the gun out and I shot him three more times. We got back, we went to the neighborhood, we cleaned the car, got rid of the gun, and we were living together, a bunch of guys. I went and take a shower. I stayed in the shower quite a long time, the water running on me. And I was waiting for this thing to happen, being nervous and sweating. And it didn't happen, Nothing happened. And I went to bed. I slept like a baby. I got up the next morning, there was confusion. Some of the young girls who still would. I saw, my God, they killed Joe Colucci and Rockaway. And I remember asking one of the girls, they know who did it? Did they find out who did it? She said, no, it wasn't. It's in the papers already, but it's not in the papers. I don't know if they. They caught the people or what. And I remember we all went to the corner where we stay, and I had like an out of body experience that I felt like I was above somewhere looking down and listening to all of them talking and. And I felt absolutely nothing. And then Shorty came with his nephew, Tommy Spiro, and I came back to reality. And they said, carmine Persico wants to talk to you. So we got in the car when we went down there. But that was the then boss, excuse

Megyn Kelly

me, Carmine Persico at that point was that family's boss?

Salvatore 'Sammy the Bull' Gravano

No, he was a captain. But a very, very powerful captain. He was leading the war against the gallows. And so I went down and met with him. I was told not to talk, I didn't talk. Tommy Spiro explained the whole situation, what happened, in detail. He grabbed me, hugged me, kissed me on the cheek, and he told me, great job. And I didn't feel anything. I went to the funeral and I didn't feel any remorse. I didn't feel anything. And I thought that was peculiar. I thought, either something's wrong with me or I'm just a stone cold killer and I'm going to fit in the Mafia perfectly. And I guess when I became not a stone cold killer, I was good at What I did, I was good at what I did in a lot of ways, in construction, running unions. But I was also becoming a professional hit guy.

Megyn Kelly

Had you ever been a man of faith prior to that? Had you ever gone to church? Did you have any relationship with God?

Salvatore 'Sammy the Bull' Gravano

No, of course. I still, I believe in God. I, I, I, I don't. I went to church as a kid. I stopped going to church. I believe, you know, in prison. I joined the Indians because I wanted to smoke. And you have to join their religion, and they allow that in prison, in the federal prisons. So I joined them. I went in to get tobacco that you weren't allowed to smoke from 2004. I went in really wanting to smoke and steal some tobacco and bring it to my cell. But I got to understand their religion, the way they believe in God. I also, at one point, a friend of mine grabbed me and said, sammy, you're not an Indian. We do Wicca. Why don't you join our group? And I did. I joined their group as well. So I started to understand different religions. And everybody seems to believe in God. They're just a path. What path do you want to take to get to God? Indians have it, Wicca has it, Muslims have it, Jews have it, Catholics have it, Christians have it. It's just a path. And I believe most of them.

Megyn Kelly

Was there a moment back then when you're talking about being in the shower and no remorse, I wonder whether there was any moment of no matter what, I feel I recognize I've crossed over, I've done something, I've sinned in the most profound way possible, and at some point there will be a price to pay.

Salvatore 'Sammy the Bull' Gravano

No, no, I don't look at it that way. I never felt that way. I still don't think that way. I think that God makes people, creates people, and he creates lions and he creates lambs. I think I'm a lion. And whatever you have to pay, if you have to pay anything, why would he create a life if there was a God and he was interested in what was going on? Why do little kids get cancer and die? Why are little kids get raped? Why do so many things happen? And talking about religions, I mean, I was a Catholic, brought up that way, baptized, communion, confirmation, until I found out what priests do. And I had no intention of committing or my crimes to talk to him. I was asked that once by a priest, and I told him, yeah, you want me to tell you my, what I do? Tell me what you do, and then I'll talk to you about what I Do. So I. I don't believe in religion. I believe in God, but I think religion is bullshit. I think it's. They. It's all about money. It's all about different things. They commit evil things to good people. So I'm away from religions. I respected the Indian religion, the Wicca religion. It stunned me. It's the only religion that they put a woman above God, the goddess of the moon, the water and the earth. God is the God of the forest and the mountains. Why do they put, I asked, a woman above God? Because she creates life. She needs a man's seed, but she, in her womb, takes care of life and then gives birth and creates life. I understand that. I'm somebody with common sense. If you make sense to me in a certain way, I understand it. So I understood that religion. Now, a lot of people will not be happy with me saying this, but of course, it's a. It's a. They call it a pagan religion. They call it all kinds of things. It was before the Christianity even. And I understand that part about a woman giving birth and creating life.

Megyn Kelly

Well, I mean, I've read that unlike some in the mob, you were a family man in the midst of all this. You went home and had dinner with your wife and your two kids each night. Your daughter Karen has talked about that publicly many times. And so there has been this respect for your family members, for your wife, for your daughter in a way that even the people who were in the mob said. You know, for example, John Gotti would go out carousing with other women after hours, and you would go home to your family. That piece of your commitment of your life, you know, you honored despite what was happening on the other front. And I know that you. You don't see these as. As real as murders. You know, in the same way a soldier doesn't commit a murder when he kills somebody. This is how an FBI agent explained it in one public interview, that a soldier would not be murdering. You don't see your kills as murders because there was a code behind them. Because you say the people you killed had sort of agreed to live by this code and die by this code. And on that note, that heavy note, let me pause it, okay? Cause I want to get into that next. And that's a whole other chapter for us. So stand by. Let me squeeze in a commercial break and much, much more with Sammy the Bold Bravano as he stays with us for the whole show. Fascinating story to tell.

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Salvatore 'Sammy the Bull' Gravano

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Megyn Kelly

So, Sammy, it was actually a quote that I was reading. Not from an FBI agent. It was from Terence Win, who the audience may know as the executive producer of the Sopranos. And he also did Boardwalk Empire. And he was. He took part in a documentary about you and said the following. Many mobsters consider what they do almost military in nature. They consider themselves soldiers, so they rationalize a lot of really bad behavior. You wouldn't think about calling a soldier at war a murderer. So therefore, if they're a soldier and they're at war, they're not murderers either. They're just doing their job. Does that capture the mentality?

Salvatore 'Sammy the Bull' Gravano

I believe so, 100%. You know, I watched a program one time during World War II. We dropped an atom bomb, an atomic bomb, but atom bomb twice. Not once. Twice. But I saw the guy who was in the plane and over Hiroshima or somewhere, and he pressed the button and it killed 100,000 people, men, women and children in a split second. And they were patting him on the back that he did a great job. The war was ended early because of those things. And if I was talking to the guy, I would say, listen, you did a great job, great military guy. You fought for the country. You did what you were supposed to do. How do you feel now knowing you just killed 100,000 people, men, women and children? Does that bother you at all? And I'm sure he would tell me no, because he was fighting for the country. He was fighting for what he thought was right in the Mafia. It's part of it's. Not a gang no more. It's part of my heritage. It came from Italy, Sicily. It started in Sicily and it came to this country. So it's part of my heritage. So it's not just a gang. A gang is, you know, killing in a gang or doing certain things for a drug supply is a different thing. But this is a soldier. It was explained to me I was involved in the Johnny Keys hit. It was a major, major hit. And it was. He was a guy who had 50 hits under his belt and me and him were going to go at each other. And it was explained to me that we were like two samurais. Now I understand a samurai is a different thing than us. They're actually more violent than us. But I really felt that way, that we were two samurais who met on the battlefield.

Megyn Kelly

What about, Let me ask you a couple follow ups on that. So obviously when we dropped the bomb at the end of World War II, they estimated that we saved somewhere upwards of 25, 30 million lives by putting an end to World War II. The Japanese would not surrender. And so I'm not defending the killing of 100,000 people. Exactly. But in a way I am because it was the right decision. It saved far more lives than it actually cost. But in the Mafia. And I can get it if the guy was in the movie.

Salvatore 'Sammy the Bull' Gravano

Wait, let me answer your question. Let me answer that question. The people who say that it saved 25 to 30 million lives was who? The government? Of course they're gonna say that.

Megyn Kelly

I mean, independent analysts to take a look, who have taken a look at this ad nauseam since the end of World War II will tell you that the lives saved, far, far outnumbered the lives cost. Doesn't make it not controversial, but you can't talk about it without adding that perspective. But I mean, the thing about the mafia, and I can understand if a guy was going to kill you, I mean, even the law recognizes maybe not exactly the way that you would do it, but recognizes a right to self defense. But, you know, it seems like it was a whole criminal justice system that you guys agreed to where, you know, you sleep with the guy's wife, you could get whacked. You, you interfere with my business, you could get whacked. It basically is just whatever the head of the crime family wants. And the guy doesn't show up like a samurai face to face in a meeting where you fight it out to the death. He just gets in the car with you, he gets whacked in the back of the head. So I'm interested in the moral, you know, the way you thought about those kind of differences. Morally.

Salvatore 'Sammy the Bull' Gravano

Well, morally, I don't know if it's, to me, if it makes a difference. If you kill somebody on a battlefield or you kill somebody in the car, or whether you use a gun or whether you use a knife or whether you use poison. Dead is dead. You just took a life. It doesn't matter how you take it. You can beat somebody to death. You could fight, you could win a fight. You can go overboard and just beat this person to death. So you just took a life. No matter how it is, whether it's more gory about the means.

Megyn Kelly

Okay, you're talking about the means.

Salvatore 'Sammy the Bull' Gravano

Yeah, the means of how you're doing it. I don't know if it makes any difference now. They want to take guns away from everybody because there's a shooting. I mean, if there's not a shooting, you want to take guns away from everybody. You get some sicko so he goes in with a bomb and he blows half the school up and he kills more people actually than using a gun. Does that make you happy? You didn't have a gun. So I don't think the means of what you use is that important. You're taking a life. Whatever it is, whatever your reason is, whatever the senses look at later on you're taking a life. Whether it's on a battlefield, in the street. No matter how you do it or what you do, you're taking a life, bottom line. But we have excuses for what, how you do it. If me and him were in a battlefield, in the street, we like years ago, and we back up and we pull out a gun from the side and we both shoot at each other. You take it to life. What's the difference how you do it? That is dead. My brother in law had a good saying. You get hit by a car and you're all crunched up, bleeding, all your bones are busted up and you're dying. How would you feel if the person ran over and said, it's me, Sammy, he didn't do it on purpose. It's an accident. Does it make a difference to me if it's an accident or it's on purpose? I'm all crushed up, I'm in tremendous pain, I'm about to die. Death is death.

Megyn Kelly

I don't know though. That ignores them, that ignores the moral code. I mean, I agree with you in terms of, you know, you die by a knife, you die by a gun. It doesn't make much of a difference to you. But we're expanding beyond that too. The law recognizes some killings as justified. It would not recognize any of the ones that you're talking about as justified. And I think you know that. It's just what you're saying is that in the Mafia you live by a different code of justice. And it's as I understand it, your position is that you wouldn't run around killing what you call legitimate people. It's, you know, if somebody pissed you off in your social life, he wouldn't be at risk of getting whacked. You only for the most part. And we'll get to one of the exceptions I know about, but it sounds like it may have been an accident. But for the most part you only went after people who were part of your world and who had agreed to live and die by this code.

Salvatore 'Sammy the Bull' Gravano

Right, exactly. I never killed a woman or a child and I never killed even a legitimate guy who I didn't get along with or whatever. I mean, I had fights, but that's as far as that would go. I'm not going to kill somebody because I don't like what he said or something like that. We're not complete lunatics. Some of us became lunatics, but I never went to that degree. I lived by this code and I would willing to die by the code. I told my family when I cooperated, we talked about cooperating. When I cooperated, I said if somebody comes down and kills me, don't even be mad, don't say nothing, don't do anything, don't be mad. I broke the code. I understood that I could die for what I was doing. If I could understand it, you understand it, leave it alone. So I believe in that code just like I believe in God. But I don't believe in certain religions, probably most religions, but you got to live by something. And I live by what I was taught by my mother and my father. The legitimate end. A lot of people who would say I was a different kind of gangsters, you talked about the law enforcement. I'm still friends with agents, NYPD cops, till today. Because they were, they were different. We got along, we were friends. They had one life, I had another life. We understood each other and I was basically a different kind of a gangster. I cared about people. And what people's Parsons? Basically my ex wife and my daughter or my son will say, dad, you talk to everybody. Yeah, they're human beings. I talk to people. I love people. I like hard working people.

Megyn Kelly

But what about Allen Keyser? This was a 16 year old boy who you killed, and I understand you accidental.

Salvatore 'Sammy the Bull' Gravano

No, no, it's not accidental. And I didn't kill him. First of all, it was a gang who came and they actually did movies about this to our after hour club bikers. And. And they. And I went to that place. I wound up getting a beaten. They got. I got jumped by six, seven guys. My ankle was broke on both sides. I had a cast from my knee down. And I had permission to go after this guy. And it wasn't Alan Kaiser. So I'll tell you what happened. We got in the car and we were looking for him. One night we saw him pull up in front of a double.

Megyn Kelly

Different guy. Aldo Candido.

Salvatore 'Sammy the Bull' Gravano

Yes, yes. And I said, that's him. We went back to our club. We got guns, we got a shotgun. Now, it was supposed to be loaded with double O buck, which will put down a moose. But they were using it for pigeons and playing around with was birdshot. So anyway, Louie Molino had it. I said, pull up to the car. When you see him coming out of that house where the car was double parked, stop. Ask him for directions, like we're lost. I was laying down in the backseat with a cast on my leg. There was a driver and Louis Molito was in the passenger seat. I said, when he gets to the car to answer you, I'll shoot him in the face. Louis Molino rolled down the window when he came out. And he must have been told the night before that what they did was to a maid guy, me. And he knew he was in trouble. So as soon as Louis asked him for directions, he started to run. Louie jumped out of the car, threw a shot at him, hit him in the back. He kept running, didn't put him down. He kept running. This kid, Alan Kaiser and I spoke to the family and everybody about this. He was 16. We didn't know he was 16. He wasn't a target. Wasn't in the head, wasn't supposed to get it. No accident he ran at Louis Molino. He might have been part of that gang, I don't know. The driver yelled to Louie Melito, guy coming at you. He turned around with the shotgun inches away from the guy and shot him in the chest. When he went down, he put the shotgun to his head, pulled the trigger again and killed him. We found out the next day that he was 16 years old. We were in shock. It was terrible. 16. The number itself shocks you. But why did he run at Louis Molito? Why did he do that? He wasn't the target. Nobody was Shooting at him. He could have ran back at his house, he could have went the other way. He could have just stood there and never got touched. So now whether he was on drugs, whether he was part of the gang, I don't know. You hear stories.

Megyn Kelly

Just for the record, his family says he was not a gangster. Quote, he was just an innocent kid walking home.

Salvatore 'Sammy the Bull' Gravano

No, no, a gangster. He's 16 years old. He definitely wasn't a gangster. He could have been a gang member or he knew this guy because the guy was in his house. So the family can't deny that that guy went in his house, they were together, he came out, the other guy came to the car and he was on the side. Nobody was going to shoot him. And the family recognizes that too. I talked with the sister and she said, I don't know what made him do that. Now people will say that I killed a 16 year old kid. First of all, I didn't shoot him, Louie did. But it doesn't matter. If I could have shot him, I would have. I'm not trying to make myself a good guy. I didn't shoot him. But the police found him exactly where it was in the street where he got to. He came off the sidewalk, into the street after Louie. Not on the sidewalk with his books, coming home from school. Like, you hear some stories. None of that's true. Now. It was a shame. We were sick about that. He was 16 years old and we were confused why he even did that. And he wasn't a target of the hit. We weren't even looking at him. But what would you expect? What would I expect Louie to do? The guy is actually a foot away from him. What is he supposed to do? Just stand there and wait for the guy to grab him and tackle him to the ground or do something he's on, you know.

Megyn Kelly

You know, obviously this is why we don't choose a life of crime. This is why we don't. We don't go to murder people in neighborhoods and take law into our own hands. And why the law prohibits it because bad things can happen. And that's why there's something called felony murder. You're in the process of committing one felony and you accidentally or otherwise commit another murder, you're going to be charged for it, even if it was an accident in the course of the felony. Because the law recognizes creating extremely dangerous situations.

Salvatore 'Sammy the Bull' Gravano

Absolutely. And I'm charged with it because I'm part of the murder, not the shooter. And he wasn't the target. But I still get charged with it. And I understand that. That's why it's on my list of 19 people that he's there. I mean, and I get it. But I did give a courtesy to the family. They talked to my daughter. They talked with my son, and they wanted to talk with me. And I did talk with them. I took the time to explain what happened and why nobody wanted to kill this kid. They understood that. I don't know what they told you or told anybody else. And I know that the Gotti's instigated these people saying that I killed their son or their brother. 16 years old, I'm a baby killer. That was brought up by the Gotti's who were trying to make me look bad or make it look worse. And I know how it was brought up. And like I said, this was talked about with the families. The whole thing was talked about with the police. And it's not. I'm not saying it was a good thing. It was a horrible thing. But it's one of those things that happened. I mean, if I see a murder, I think I'm a pretty tough guy. I see somebody shooting at somebody, I'm not gonna run at the shooter. He's got a gun.

Megyn Kelly

No, I got it. I got it. I got it. Let me pause you there. Let me squeeze in one more break, and we'll be right back. Much more to the story with Sammy the Bull Gravano as we continue right after this.

Michael Franzese

You're saying my father. I don't remember what the. You said, I hear this bitch behind my back talking about my father. Do not say nothing. When my back is turned, say it

Salvatore 'Sammy the Bull' Gravano

to my face, and automatically I just black the out.

Michael Franzese

I don't give a if he's a red or not. So say it to my face.

Megyn Kelly

Check my bloodline, bitch.

Oregon Lottery Announcer

I'm coming for you.

Michael Franzese

You want to keep talking about families? Let's talk. You want to bring up families? You want to get my daughter into this for my daughter, for my father? From everybody that you spoke about, I will take a piece of you every time, bitch.

Salvatore 'Sammy the Bull' Gravano

This is what. Why you never talk about families. Look at the outcome now that blood was drawn. Things will never be the same again.

Megyn Kelly

Okay, so that was the bulk of that clip is Karen Gravano, Sammy's daughter, who was one of the stars of the show Mob Wives, which I confess, I absolutely loved. And she was very open about what it was like to grow up as your daughter and sort of when she. How she slowly became aware of what you did for a living and how she could tell, you know, obviously she's fiery and feisty, but how she could sort of tell that you were an important man. You know, the way people greeted you, the way people showed you respect. And I know, you know, that must have manifested in your life, too. Sort of getting into the clubs in New York, and I saw the ABC documentary where, you know, you talked about. You looked at the Manhattan skyline and said, you know, I own this. I own it. I built it. I control it. So can you talk to us a little bit about that piece of your history?

Salvatore 'Sammy the Bull' Gravano

Yeah, well, you know, I became very powerful in the construction industry. And one day we were on the other side in Connecticut, I believe it is, and we were in a fancy hotel, and we went out. I went out on the patio and I was smoking a cigar, I think, and I looked at the skyline at night. Manhattan is gorgeous, lit up at night. And it just. The guy who was with me said, what are you looking at? I said, look at this. Look at the beauty here. It's absolutely stunning. It's gorgeous. And I'm part of building this whole thing. I mean, you can't get a job at this point in my life without some sort of a wink and a nod from me saying yes or no. I mean, I became very powerful in the construction industry. Paul had me. Paul Castellano had me under his wing because he loved construction. And he was part of the reason I became very powerful in the construction industry. And he enjoyed using me to run certain unions and do certain things for him. And, yeah, I loved what I was doing as far as the construction.

Megyn Kelly

And I should mention, because you mentioned Paul Castellano, because you had sort of started with a different crime family and then eventually moved over to the Gambino crime family. And that's the family that Paul Castellano for a time was the head of. And you would later become part of his assassination. But before.

Salvatore 'Sammy the Bull' Gravano

Before.

Megyn Kelly

Before we get to that. So you're living large. You're living large in New York. And this was a time in what. It's a weird question, but, like, to what did that film, the Godfather, affect people's view of the Mafia and your own experience within the Mafia? You know, because it. When I was growing up, you knew about the Mafia, but there. There definitely was a glorification around it. You know, it seemed like, oh, they hurt people, but maybe mostly their own people, but that's not really true. I mean, the extortion was on regular folks, too. And yet they seem kind of cool. And people wanted to, like, rub Elbows with them in very high circles. There was speculation about Frank Sinatra and, you know, so on and so forth. So what was your experience of that movie and people's reaction to the Mob?

Salvatore 'Sammy the Bull' Gravano

Well, that movie stunned me. It was probably one of the best movies I ever watched. It was completely, well done. Godfather 1 and Godfather 2. Godfather 3 was a joke, but, yeah,

Megyn Kelly

because you were in it when this is coming out. You were. You were in it when those movies hit.

Salvatore 'Sammy the Bull' Gravano

Yeah, yeah. And it, you know, it showed the family orientation, how we are with family. The weddings. My family had weddings like that, and people would get up and sing, and it was fun. And, you know, who was it Sonny is with? One of the bridesmaids in a room upstairs. I mean, that's typical of us. That was really typical of us. All that stuff that happened in that. The agents watching us. And it just gave me a whole different look at the mob and how the people would look at it. And as far as the fascination, I know what it is. Everybody in my mind anyway, has a fascination, especially men have a fascination of being a tough guy, going with beautiful women, beautiful cars, making money. You know, fuck the government. I don't want to pay taxes, and I don't want to do this and that. The other thing. So everybody looked at it and it's. You didn't live that life, but you admired it in a way. You felt a certain way when you watched it. And I watched this new movie that came out, the author, how they made the Godfather. Very interesting movie. Great movie. With the producers in Hollywood, the whole nine yards. I mean, just watching these things. The Mafia, really, you know, it's. When I was in prison a couple of times, AB's Aryan Brothers and other gang members came to me and told me, sammy, tell me about the structure of the Mafia. And I would tell them, why you're not the Mafia. Your. Your Aryan brothers. Why would you want to know? And they said, your structure lasted a thousand years. People admire you guys. People want. Some people wanted to be like you guys. So what's the whole structure about? So I realized then, even them asking me questions like that, that they admired themselves and wanted to be like it. My answer to them was, we're not savages. We don't kill outside our organization. Where everybody in the Mafia at one time or another has been involved in a murder, 99%. So how do you control that group of people if there's no violence within us, if there's no punishments that could cause death, how do you stop them? How do you stop A guy, what are you going to do? Cut off his tie, Slap him on the wrist? He's not going to listen to you. Then he'll do whatever he wants to do. Then there'll be no control, will be no better than a gang. And that's what I would tell some AB guys and stuff like that. You have to have rules, you have to have ideas. You know, I looked at. There was a conversation I just had recently about. I was in Paul Castellano's house and the union, which we control, the association and the union for the garbage, and there was a massive strike. It was on television. There was garbage piled up everywhere. I came in and he told me to sit down. The maid got me a cup of coffee and he said, send it for Jimmy Brown and the people who are running the union and the association. So we sat there for a while, 15 minutes, 20 minutes, those guys came in. Jimmy Brown was a captain. The other guy was a made guy. And he said, look at this television. He said, what are we, animals? Pick up that garbage from schools, from hospitals, from old age homes. We'll win the strike, but what are we? Animals? Over money, over winning. We'll win. Pick up that goddamn garbage. It struck me in a way that here's the boss of bosses, Paul Castellano. He was the boss of bosses. He was the head of the commission. Saying something like that, caring about children, hospitals, old age homes, that they would be infected with garbage, whatever. It gave me a different look at things. And I, you know, those are good things that I saw. There's evil things I saw. There's people who borderline, got to like killing and became serial killers, like a Roy Demeo or gas pipe and people like that. And we killed them because they became that. So we don't believe in pedophile as rapists, serial killers. We want to get rid of that. When I was in my neighborhood, I, you know, the whole neighborhood, I would say, this is my neighborhood. People I don't even know. Maybe you lived in there. I didn't even know you. You're a beautiful woman. You'd walk down the block, my guys, I would tell them, this is not a construction site. Don't hoot now. Don't do anything when you see her. She's part of our community. They're us. Nobody's going to touch her. Her husband knew she was beautiful. He'll tell her, go right past Sammy's club. Don't worry about it. He said that because he knew she was safe. We wouldn't let nothing Happen to her around the block, only God knows what happens. So we lived a different way. And I think that touched the public in a certain way. They didn't agree with the violence, but we were different. We were a different type of criminal organization. I'll call it criminal because it is. We would take, like you say, from every industry, but we took a little bite out of every industry. We screwed the government out of taxes. Yeah. We screwed insurance companies. Yeah. We didn't feel any guilt about that because they screwed people all the time. My mother and father, that broke their back and was so legitimate. I don't even know how I became a gangster, tell you the truth. They were so legitimate, so honest, but they were taking advantage of by unions, by the government. So I have no sympathy for government. I have no sympathy for insurance companies who sometimes go overboard and people are sick and oh, no, we're not going to pay that claim or we're not going to do this or we're not going to do that. I'm not saying all of them. There's some really good people, honest people out there in every industry, and there's some bad people in every industry. So, you know, I have mixed feelings with a lot of these things.

Megyn Kelly

And what about, like, the ma and PA shop owner on the corner who are just trying to make ends meet and they got to pay extra money every month for security or, you know, for permission from you guys to do what is their legal right to do or else.

Salvatore 'Sammy the Bull' Gravano

Never happened. Never. Never happened. Never happened. As far as I'm concerned, never happened. All the mom and pop stores knew my mother, my father, me, my family. It was a community. If you're worried about the mom and pop stores, I'll tell you what crushed them is big corporations, liberal elites, of course, get these big corporations and crush them. I had a little milk farm, they called it. It's a little grocery store at one point in my life. And I bought Pampers wholesale and I put them for a cheap number. I wasn't making any money, just as a draw for people. So I sent my partner, my gombata alley boy, Como, go to the supermarket, see what they're charging. When he came back, he said, sammy, they're charging like less than we're paying for the wholesale. So I said, how could they do that? He said, well, number one, they're buying tons of stuff. I wasn't. I'm buying two cases, they're buying 4,000 cases. And if they want to make a sale and do the same idea that I have, how Can I compete with them? I took the two cases of papers and threw them out. I can't compete with them. So this is what happened in small business, got crushed. But the mom and pop source, I mean, I've never ever thought about, we love these people. We knew them. We went to a bakery, a fruit and vegetable store. Those things don't even exist anymore.

Megyn Kelly

But you guys, you didn't charge people for security, saying, no, no, not security, never. Well, something though, I mean, I remember I have some personal knowledge on this because in another life, before I was a journalist, I was a lawyer. And the lawyer I worked for at this law firm, Jones Day, was charged with enforcing a consent decree that the mob had entered into in New York City. And that meant the mob admitted it had done a bunch of things and we were responsible for making sure it lived up to its promise not to keep doing them. And you know, the sort of, the harassment of small businesses, small business owners was on the list. Money laundering and so on, that was another thing. But you know, this sort of smaller crime, smaller than murders and so on within the family, that's one of the reasons why people don't like the Mafia, right? Like it's not all within your own family. There are innocent people who get hurt and who have to pay unnecessary money that they shouldn't have to pay. And who could get hurt if they don't do as as told.

Salvatore 'Sammy the Bull' Gravano

Well, listen, like I said before, you know, there's good and bad in every organization and there's bad guys in the mafia who would do something like that, do a lot of things like that. That wasn't our norm. Now I would do that with a disco or something to protect. When you talk about protection money, if you could mention my name, nobody could come in and bother you, Mafia wise or any other way. I'll take care of your problems. But I didn't cripple them. They gave me a pay or they gave me something that helped them. I don't look at it as hurting them, shaking them down. It's like a rent, it's like anything else. That or any bill that you pay. And in most cases that I did, it was a reasonable pay. What I did mostly is use my power to help grow a company and I would become their partner. I'll give you a quick example. There was a guy who had a small little container company. He'd go to houses and put the container you're moving, you put all your garbage in that container and he's making money. The containers were garbage and I got to like the guy. I went to him and I said, listen, I got connections in Jersey. I could get the best containers, and I could increase your business. So we had a conversation. I said, I don't want any contracts or anything like that. We could work on a handshake. How much do you make a year? And he said, about 100,000 a year. I said, how about we go partners? The first hundred thousand you make, that's yours. That's what you make. Anything above that, me and you were partners, and I could get you more work. I could get you better containers. So we did that. We shook hands, and we did that. At the end of the year of our partnership, I says, how did we do? What did you make? He said, Sammy, I made 400,000 this year. All right? The first 100,000 is yours. The other 300,000.

Megyn Kelly

The allegation against you by your critics is that nobody should have accepted this kind of an offer from you because if they wanted to renegotiate or if they wanted a bigger piece of the pie, you would kill them.

Salvatore 'Sammy the Bull' Gravano

No, it's not true. That is not true. I've never killed a partner. Listen, what I told. What we're talking about happened 40, 50 years ago. And if you came to my office, I'll show you 14, 15 different letters of people who were partners with me and knew me back then are sending me love letters. And I'm not talking about women. Men. Sammy was great. I watched your podcast. I hope you make it. Our partnership was great. So I don't know where you.

Megyn Kelly

What would happen to the guys for whom it wasn't great? What about what would happen to the guys who said, I don't like the deal and I actually want to break up?

Salvatore 'Sammy the Bull' Gravano

I didn't care. The guy with the container business. After a couple of years, when I grew and I was making so much money, I gave him the business back. I didn't charge him a penny. I walked away. This is yours. I did it with a guy named Joe. Madonna with the ace partition. We had 200 carpenters. When I grew in status, I said, joe, I love you. I made a ton of money with you. It's yours. It's all yours now. And if anybody bothered you, get in touch with me. And if I could get you some big work, give me a piece. And I got a letter from him in my office now. A letter from him loving, Loving the partnership, the relationship we had. Now, what would happen if a guy was. Wanted to take advantage of me in some way or throw me out or push me out or do something on his own, he wouldn't be happy with it. He wouldn't get killed. It's not a killing in my eyes. It's not a killing offense. But I was powerful with unions and everything. I could be a tremendous pain in the ass. And that's what I would be. If he's going for job, if he would go for jobs, I would tell him, don't give him no work.

Megyn Kelly

Yeah, I imagine if Sammy the Bull tells you, don't give this guy any work, you don't give the guy any work. Because there's a lot of power behind that name at that time, especially. So that leads me to Donald Trump because there were. There was speculation in the press when he was running for president that he had mob ties. No one could ever get him on it. Like, you know, the press tried to get him on everything. None of that was ever proven. But it reminded me of this, this one exchange he had with David Letterman. This is before he ran for president back in 2013, where he was asked, because this is a guy in New York City real estate, you know, he has to deal with construction and some of the industries that you just mentioned, unions all the time. And here's how that went. This is sound. 11.

Michael Franzese

Have you ever knowingly done business with what I like to call organized crime? Have they ever stopped by? I've really tried to stay away from them as much as.

Salvatore 'Sammy the Bull' Gravano

Right.

Michael Franzese

But have you ever had a case where a guy stopped by and said,

Salvatore 'Sammy the Bull' Gravano

donald, we're going to handle the linens? As

Michael Franzese

you know, growing up in New York and doing business in New York,

Salvatore 'Sammy the Bull' Gravano

I would say there might have been

Michael Franzese

one of, you know, one of those

Salvatore 'Sammy the Bull' Gravano

characters along the way. But generally speaking, I like to stay away from that group.

Oregon Lottery Announcer

Yeah, I will.

Salvatore 'Sammy the Bull' Gravano

Well, I think that's.

Michael Franzese

That goes without saying.

Carl's Jr. Advertiser

But sometimes, sometimes they don't let you stay away from.

Salvatore 'Sammy the Bull' Gravano

There's truth to that.

Michael Franzese

But if you're smart, you can stay away. You have to stay away and just sort of lead your life.

Salvatore 'Sammy the Bull' Gravano

You don't want to get involved. Although I must say I have met on occasion a few of those people. They happen to be very nice people.

Michael Franzese

You just don't want to owe them money.

Megyn Kelly

Yeah, I understand.

Salvatore 'Sammy the Bull' Gravano

Don't owe them money.

Megyn Kelly

I've heard you talk about him before and sort of said, like he was. You knew not to. Don't go there. You knew.

Salvatore 'Sammy the Bull' Gravano

No, here's what it was with Donald Trump. He was smart. He was a good builder. He was a great builder. He was Pretty honorable with the people he dealt with. He had a group of ex FBI agents for security purposes. So we knew. I knew that. So you could push on him a little bit. I tried but couldn't succeed. What he's saying is right. He knew we were there. He knew that he had to deal with situations, but he built it as a business guy. You couldn't go up there and try to talk like this guy was talking or you're gonna threaten him. Give me. You would be arrested in three minutes. Those agents were around him 24 7. So I backed away from him because there was nothing I could do. A guy named Eddie Garret Fall had a demolition company. He did a job for him. He was able to reach some people in the company, but it never went to his level that we know of. And he didn't want to deal with us. I left him alone because I thought that was a bad problem. He was a legitimate guy. I didn't want to go try to threaten him because I thought we would go to prison. So we left him alone. There was plenty of people who wanted to deal with us. So to go up there like a thug and walk in his office and try to threaten him, you would go to prison for sure. So I don't think anybody bothered him. I'm going to give you a quick example of a news reporter. A woman who called me one day and told me the same thing you're telling me. You were very powerful, Doherty, 80s and he was a big build up. You must know something. They're asking me because after he became the president. So I said, I really don't know. You know, just what I told you now, that's what I know about him. I really don't know any incidents that he's done anything, if that's what you're looking for. Sammy, please, come on. She's begging me for information. It'll just be between me and you. Which I knew was bullshit. That's not gonna happen. She's looking for information. It's not gonna stay between me and her. So I felt like goofing on her. And I said, listen, it's just between me and you, Sammy. Yeah, yeah. I give you my word. Nobody will ever know. I said, all right. There was a drywall job I wanted. I knew this beautiful woman was a friend of mine. She was a hooker. So I hooked it up with Donald Trump. Me, Trump and her, we had a menageri trois and I couldn't help it, I started laughing. So she said, you fuck, you're lying. So I said, I'm not lying. You keep pressing me. And she was asking me, what's her name? What's her name? What do you care what her name is? You're not going to say nothing. Why do you care?

Megyn Kelly

She should have given it to BuzzFeed. It would have been printed on the front page.

Salvatore 'Sammy the Bull' Gravano

Yeah, yeah. So now she's laughing, I'm laughing. And I said, listen, there's one thing I definitely would never do with Donald Trump. I don't dislike him, but I would never have a mirage of 12 Donald Trump.

Megyn Kelly

So my head. Wait, can I just. Let me pause this right now. Just have a bit of breaking news at this moment. You just mentioned him, the movie Godfather and Sonny Corleone. James Caan was the actor played that role. Just died. Just got that news in. 82 years old, James Caan just died.

Salvatore 'Sammy the Bull' Gravano

Wow.

Megyn Kelly

So sad. Yeah. What an icon.

Salvatore 'Sammy the Bull' Gravano

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you know he was hooked?

Megyn Kelly

What do you mean?

Salvatore 'Sammy the Bull' Gravano

He was. He was in the Mob.

Megyn Kelly

What?

Salvatore 'Sammy the Bull' Gravano

James Khan was. It was hooked in with the Mob. That's the guy who played Sonny, right?

Megyn Kelly

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. What do you mean?

Salvatore 'Sammy the Bull' Gravano

I was there. I was there when he came down and asked permission to be in that movie. I was there with Carmine Persico. Joe Colombo gave him.

Megyn Kelly

Who did he ask permission of to

Salvatore 'Sammy the Bull' Gravano

be in the movie?

Megyn Kelly

But who. Who is he? See, whose permission was he seeking?

Salvatore 'Sammy the Bull' Gravano

Joe Colombo's. And he came to Carmine Persico because there was a guy, Andrew Mush, who was friendly with him. Matter of fact, Andrew Mush, who was a captain in the Colombo family, became Godfather, his kid, or vice versa. They were real tight all their lives. So he was connected with the Colombo family.

Megyn Kelly

Wow. So at some point in his. When he was being cast for the Godfather, you're saying he had this connection?

Salvatore 'Sammy the Bull' Gravano

Yes.

Megyn Kelly

Wow.

Michael Franzese

Yes.

Salvatore 'Sammy the Bull' Gravano

I was there when he came down, and they. I, you know, they said, he's an actor, he's coming down. And they played the part. They brought him over to Carmine to ask permission.

Megyn Kelly

And you. You witnessed him asking for the permission?

Salvatore 'Sammy the Bull' Gravano

No, absolutely. I was there.

Megyn Kelly

What did he say?

Salvatore 'Sammy the Bull' Gravano

No, he asked for permission. Carmine told him, I'll talk to Joe Colombo. I'll make this happen. Don't worry about it. What he did is he put him in Andrew Marsh's hands. Tight. You know what I mean? He might have got the part anyway, but they played this whole little game with him, but they became super close. One became the Godfather, one of the kids. And you can look that all up. You can. You can see that I'M confused because

Megyn Kelly

James Caan was a successful actor, I think. I don't have his whole bio in front of me prior to the. The Godfather. So are you saying he was young?

Salvatore 'Sammy the Bull' Gravano

He was young. I don't think he was a major actor. He could have been an actor. Of course he was an actor. But I don't think.

Megyn Kelly

But he wasn't in the mob like you were in the mob. You're saying ties, like connections, what, friends? What does it mean?

Salvatore 'Sammy the Bull' Gravano

Yeah, it's an associate. It's an associate of the mob. In other words, he's on record now with the Mafia as an associate. He's not a maid member. He's not one of us. But he's an associate of the Colombian, just like Sinatra was.

Megyn Kelly

He was, too, you say. I mean, of course, there's been rumors about this for years, but you're saying that without a doubt, they're true.

Salvatore 'Sammy the Bull' Gravano

You know, when we took over John Gotti and me and. John Gotti was a fucking egomaniac. And he was in a restaurant. Sinatra had come in, and he didn't say nothing to John. He was going to buy him a bottle of wine or something. John refused it, and he sent this guy Joe Watts over to Sinatra. And tell him, whenever you come in a restaurant, you see John Gotti. You come over and you kiss his head.

Megyn Kelly

Oh, boy.

Salvatore 'Sammy the Bull' Gravano

And now Sinatra went to where he's supposed to go, to the Genovese family. Because that's where he was for years, this guy Frankie Blue Eyes and Chin Gigante. I was there when he got in touch with us and told John, you know, bro, he's always been with us. What, do you send somebody over to abuse him? He does a lot of favors. It's not us, but he's my dog, bro. If you need a favor, he'll do it. Don't go sending people, threaten them in front of people. And so, I mean, how much more? I mean, and I always knew it, but I'm giving you that example where he was abused by this Joe Watts on John's orders, and the Genovese family came right out of the woodwork and protected him.

Megyn Kelly

And I should say. I mean, with respect to James Caan, of course, we haven't had the chance to reach out to anybody in his camp and ask these questions, and they're quite clearly going to be in mourning today.

Salvatore 'Sammy the Bull' Gravano

Andrew. Ask for Andrew Russo. They used to call him Andrew Mush. If he's related to him.

Megyn Kelly

Okay, I will say I knew James Kahn just a bit personally through a mutual Friend. He was an absolute gentleman and completely kind and lovely.

Salvatore 'Sammy the Bull' Gravano

And I'm not saying anything bad about it.

Megyn Kelly

No, no, I know. I know you're not. No, no, I know. I just don't. I feel uncomfortable if none of this is true, disparaging him on the day of his death. And so. And I haven't had the chance to check it out myself, so with respect to you not saying it isn't, just don't know. I want to make that clear to the audience. But that's unfortunate. It's sad to have lost him. His work in the Godfather earned him an Academy Award nomination, a Golden Globe nomination, and of course, a place in all of our hearts because he was this firebrand who was tortured and I think just did such a brilliant job of portraying what one might go through if one were born into such a family or in your case, willingly joined, quote, the family. Before we leave that subject, did your wife. I always wonder about the wives. Like, did your wife know everything? I know she knew you were in the Mafia, but did she know you know about murders? Did she know all that?

Salvatore 'Sammy the Bull' Gravano

No, absolutely not. I never told my wife anything about the Mafia and it was my way of protecting her. She always, in other words, in my opinion, could turn around if she was ever questioned by the feds or anybody. She could say, I don't know legitimately, I'm not going to give her information, especially about murder, something like that. I'd have to be out of my mind to do something like that. But she knew I was in the Mafia, but she didn't know any of that. Neither did my kids. I was a family man. I lived two lives at home. I was a father, a husband. When I made money, I bought a farm. We put horses on the farm. We. It was a family life. When I drove to that place, I left the Mafia behind me. When I got off the highway, it was in Jersey, cream Ridge, N.J. and smelt the trees, the grass, I was like a different person. That's the farm. And it was a 30 acre farm. We turned it into a horse farm. We lived great times in there. Fun holidays, fourth of July. So when I left, I left on a Friday, took off, usually staying there on a Saturday and Sunday with my family. And we did all great things. When the FBI went up to Cream Ridge, New Jersey, they went to every restaurant, everywhere I went, asking people about me, and not one person said anything negative. When I sold it, there was a woman who was. She sold it. She asked me for a cart where the kids sit on it and they could drive it. So I had said, I'm not going to sell it. It's part of the farm. And when I did sell it, I told them that cart isn't for sale. And I gave it to the woman. She told the feds that's how he dealt with me. Never offered me money under the table or doing anything, but he gave me this cart for my grandchildren. And a matter of fact, as soon as I'm done with this conversation, I'm going to get in touch with him and I'm going to tell him that user here asking me questions. So I, I was a different animal there.

Megyn Kelly

Yeah. Well, no, I mean, your kids talk about you in this way. It's part of what makes you fascinating, the dichotomy between your professional life and your home life. And up next, in our last segment together, I want to get into turning on Gotti, going into witness protection and your job that you did while that happened, plastic surgery, and then how you wound up back in prison and then free again. Okay? So don't miss that. Stay with us for one more segment as Sammy the Bull Gravano continues with us right after this quick break.

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Megyn Kelly

My team's pitch has been looking into the James Kahn thing during the break and says indeed Andy Mush Russo, part of the Colombo crime family, was a longtime friend of James Caan. And at one point, James Caan did indeed offer to post Mush's bail money when he was Accused of a crime. And this Andy Mushrousso was indeed godfather to one of James Caan's children. So to be continued on that front. There have been reports that Khan had this connection, though I've never heard it directly from somebody who was actually in the mob. So we've gone to a different place. Okay, Sammy, you wind up. You and John Gotti wind up running the Gambino crime family, the Genovese crime family, and John Gotti's mob boss, he's the boss of the family. You become underboss. And you guys, for years and years, were very tight, very tight. And then, as I understand it, and as we said in the intro, things went downhill. And I don't wanna spend too much time. It's been talked about a lot, but they went downhill. And you were both in jail together. You thought he was going to turn on you. And I know you say that's why you turned on him. You went to those two agents who were following you around all the time and said, let's talk about John Gotti. Now, his defenders say, bullshit. They're like, that's Sammy trying to cover his own butt so he doesn't look like a rat. John Gotti wasn't going to turn on Sammy. And they basically just call BS on the whole story. So what do you want to say about that?

Salvatore 'Sammy the Bull' Gravano

Right? I mean. I mean, I've heard that they said there's millions of hours of tapes. It wasn't millions of hours of tapes. There was, but up in the apartment there was a small amount of tapes, four or five. It was up there for months, but we didn't use the apartment. A lot of times when we did use the apartment, we didn't talk about anything. There was a couple of times that I wasn't in the apartment, and he was sitting with Frank Gilicasio. Now, when people talk about it was all bullshit. I mean, it's made up. There's agents, New York State Organized Crime Task Force, that heard these tapes, listened to the tapes and knew exactly what was going on. But I'm going to give you one story that's going to blow all that other stuff away. The judge got rid of our lawyers, Jerry Shagel and Bruce Cutler, and we had to get new lawyers. One of the lawyers that we brought in did an interview, and you could check this out in an article with Jerry Capisi. He did an interview with Jerry Capisi and told him this. I was brought in to be the lawyer for John. And he told John I was in that meeting. It was a lawyer's meeting. He said to John, you can't beat this case. Your tapes are devastating. The four, five, six tapes out of all the rest of them are devastating. I could try to work out a plea agreement. And John said, no, I'm going to beat the case. I got a secret weapon. So Bruce Cutler. I mean, Bruce Kotlin, what did you say his name was? That big lawyer. But anyway, he said, well, tell me your secret weapon. How are you going to beat this guy? And he says, I'm going to throw Sammy and Frankie under the bus, and I'm going to go free. We all laughed. Sounded like a joke. The lawyer never came back. When he did the interview with Jerry Capisi, he told him that story. He says, I never went back because I didn't want any part of that strategy. But John continued with that strategy because when he was in the apartment with those tapes, he had planned to kill me. And he. You can't just kill an underboss who's very powerful, big money earner. The whole family likes you. If you could kill him, you shake the whole family. If you could kill him, then you could kill all of us. Here's a guy who's the most loyal guy to you. He's rigging your cases. He's killing people for you. If you could do that. So all of the things he was telling Frankie to talk about to the captains to prepare, Sammy's killing his partners. He's killing union guys and taking over the unions. He wanted that to go out so that when he kills me, he would

Megyn Kelly

have some justification that is on those tapes. We looked into what John Gotti was saying on those tapes, and indeed, it's very negative about you and your alleged behaviors. So I see it, and forgive me for skipping past some of this, but, you know, this has been out there. So you wind up saying, you're gonna cross me. I'm gonna. I'm gonna cross you first. And you'll wind up going to jail, which he did for the rest of his life. You got a good deal, a sweetheart deal, where you're supposed to go away for five years. You really only had to serve less than one year because you'd already served four prior to being cut.

Salvatore 'Sammy the Bull' Gravano

You're a little bit off. I took a play with the thing. Not for five years. I took a 20 year play. I got sentenced to five years.

Megyn Kelly

Yes, sir.

Salvatore 'Sammy the Bull' Gravano

Because of the cooperation that I did.

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Salvatore 'Sammy the Bull' Gravano

Took a plea for 20 years.

Megyn Kelly

Got it.

Salvatore 'Sammy the Bull' Gravano

And. And I didn't do a year. I did over Four years. You got some good time off of the five. So I did almost five. When I got sentenced, I had seven months to go on what I got.

Megyn Kelly

It's immaterial. The point is, it wasn't a lot of jail time for, you know, the feds, what I do.

Salvatore 'Sammy the Bull' Gravano

Absolutely, yeah.

Megyn Kelly

For what you did. So the.

Salvatore 'Sammy the Bull' Gravano

You.

Megyn Kelly

The deal is you're going to go into witness protection, as we mentioned at the top of the show, for. For a while. And can you just tell us, because I. I read that you were. You did something with pools. Where did they send you and what was the job? And did you actually run around, like, looking after people's pools for a year or two or selling people's pools? How did that go?

Salvatore 'Sammy the Bull' Gravano

Well, when I first got out, I went in the witness protection program for eight months. I promised them I would do one year. They were begging me to go in the program. I didn't want to go in. I had plenty of money. They said, you're going to make the government look horrible. Come on, you got a great deal. 5 year deal. Give us something. Go in the program for a while. I gave them a year. I only wound up doing eight months because I met a woman there I was talking to and hanging with a little bit, and she recognized who I was. And they came back in and they said, we're going to take you and move you to another state. We're going to start from scratch. And I said, no, I promise you a year. I'm in eight months. I'm not doing it. They said, you have to do it. That's the rules.

Megyn Kelly

But, like, while you were doing it, while you. I'm interested in your life while you were doing it. Like, how does a guy who's in the mob doing the stuff you're doing go to, like, looking after somebody's pool and claiming that you have this other name and this fake background? You know what, what was that?

Salvatore 'Sammy the Bull' Gravano

Like, I wasn't doing it while I was in the program, and I changed my name. When I left the program in eight months, I changed my name back to Salvatore Gabano. So I wasn't walking around with it.

Megyn Kelly

Am I wrong? I feel like you're. You don't like the fact that you were in this program at all? Is that because it violates, like, the mob code? Is it makes you sound.

Salvatore 'Sammy the Bull' Gravano

No, like, no, no, no, I didn't want to be in it. What am I going to do? That you can't have any contact with your family or friends or. There's all kinds of rules. I just did five years in prison. I'm not going to live by a whole bunch of set of rules. So I gave them that one year. You could bounce me around, change my name, do what you want with me, and then I'm done with you. I'm out of prison. So I didn't want to stay with these rules.

Megyn Kelly

Did you go to people's cocktail parties? You go like the barbecue of the neighbor next door and say, what was the fake name again? I can't remember the fake name.

Salvatore 'Sammy the Bull' Gravano

Jimmy Moran.

Megyn Kelly

Did you. Did you say, like, hey, Jimmy Moran, and like, come on over, we'll watch the super bowl together? Like, how did it go?

Salvatore 'Sammy the Bull' Gravano

No, no, no. I was just running around. I was 55 years old, I think I was. Or 50 something years old. And I was there. I was. It was in a college town. I wound up in Colorado, and it was Boulder, Colorado. It's a college town. And I was hanging out there. I met a couple of, you know, people, and I played chess with some people. I'm a chess player and friendly like that. But no, it wasn't party time. It was. I was. I was. It was like doing time on the outside. I wanted to get done with the witness protection program and go home. So you did that.

Megyn Kelly

You got. Sorry, condensed on my time, so I just want to get in the last thing. So you go back to your real name and your life. And we talked earlier about whether that was scary in terms of, like, people are gonna come get me. And sure enough, some tried and you wind up, like, to me, it's just so, like, you know, I get it, because if you're in a life of crime, maybe it's hard to get out, but you wind up dealing drugs and going back to prison for 20 years. Almost 20 years. How did you let that happen? How? Like, how did that happen now?

Salvatore 'Sammy the Bull' Gravano

On that one subject, not one subject, but that's exactly what happened. And I wasn't dealing drugs. It was ecstasy, which they consider it a high drug. It's. And it was that. That's all it was. It was no heroin. It was not cocaine. It was nothing. Crack. It was ecstasy, which is a bullshit drug. They put it on a level. But anyway, I didn't even do that. There's a thing coming out, a documentary that we're working on, and me, my daughter, my son, and I'm tied up on the contract with that documentary that's going to talk about that little part of my life. So I don't think I could talk about that or I'll get my head to me because I'm in contract with it now.

Megyn Kelly

That's fine. So we'll stay tuned to wait for your. Your longer take on that. But you get out of jail in 2017 and now what? Right? So now how old are you now?

Salvatore 'Sammy the Bull' Gravano

77.

Megyn Kelly

77 years old. You and your wife divorced, but it sounds like she's still in your life and kind of a business partner now. We talked about your daughter Karen. You have a son as well. So, you know, what next? What do you do with the time you have left?

Salvatore 'Sammy the Bull' Gravano

Well, she's not my business. She's not my business partner. She's not my business partner. I'm her bitch. I work for her. She owns the company. She handles my rights and I work for her. I do my podcast, I do some other things, and I do some things on my own. So we're not really partners, but we're close. We have kids, grandchildren. We've been divorced since 1991, but we are close. And I still got. I'm still close with my kids, my grandchildren, and I do this. I couldn't find a better thing to do in retirement. I'm never going to go back to crime. I'm never going to do anything like that again. So I enjoy the social media stuff that I'm doing. I'm in this contract about the story of my life at that time with the ecstasy and all of that baloney. And.

Megyn Kelly

Is that the Salvatore? Is that the Salvatore? Is that. Or is that a different project? Because I know you're.

Salvatore 'Sammy the Bull' Gravano

No, that's.

Megyn Kelly

You've got your own short film series called the Salvatore that's coming out.

Salvatore 'Sammy the Bull' Gravano

Yes, the Salvatore. It's based on a true story, but it's not a true story. It's fiction. But it's me. It's. Here's what it is. I get out of prison in 2017, I'm contacted by the FBI. My wife and children were in the program, supposedly, and they were all killed. And the FBI wants me to go after and follow some serial killer. And I agree to it. I don't want to do it at first. And they show me a picture of dead woman and kids and I agree to go after him. Now, I'm going to say this here, but I'm not even supposed to be saying these things, but what happens is that these FBI guys got money from the mob and they gave this serial killer my wife and kids address and he was supposed to go kill them. So they get the money, they break the link, and they got me now they got me going after him. Sounds a little confusing, but me going after him.

Megyn Kelly

No, I get it. It's sort of a crime drama. So this is going to come out on Sammy on his YouTube channel. So if you're not subscribed, you can see it there by doing so in the minute we have left. Rounding back to the discussion we had on faith and God at the top of the show, what do you make of it? A lot of folks, when they get to be 77 years old, start thinking about the afterlife and what possibly awaits and forgiveness and all of that. So how do you see what's next for you? Meeting a maker, making amends, asking for grace, for forgiveness. Is any of that important to you?

Salvatore 'Sammy the Bull' Gravano

It's important to. You know what's going to happen. I mean, I really don't believe that you go anywhere. I'll be honest with you. I don't think you go anywhere. But if I could go anywhere. I'm a negotiator. I'll talk to him. Now. Talk to. I'm not gonna ask for forgiveness. If you made me, then you made me. You could have stopped me anytime you wanted. I'm not gonna. You made me what I am. I'm a lion. You made me that. So if you wanted to stop me, you could stop me anytime you want. I'm not gonna ask for forgiveness. I did what I did in an honorable way, if you could call it that. In my eyes. I never really took advantage of people. I never cheated. I never lied. I never bullshitted people, to an extent, except for the government, because, of course, I couldn't tell them the truth. And I couldn't tell my family the truth of things I was doing. But I think that's understandable. And I really. I'm not looking for forgiveness of what I did and what that would mean. This is taught in the church. If you don't believe this, you're going to hell. I don't believe in all that. I really don't. If you don't believe what I say, you're going to hell. If you don't tell. I. I don't. I don't believe any of that. So. I believe there is a God. I look up at the sky. I do artwork. I learned how to do artwork in prison. I look up at the sky. Who could do that? What artist in the world could do that? It's got to be a God life. You see kids, you see animals. You see things. Animals kill each other. So I don't believe in the stuff they Tell us in religion.

Megyn Kelly

I got it.

Salvatore 'Sammy the Bull' Gravano

I think God is fair. He's honorable. If he's there. And I don't think I'll have too much of a problem. I think people bullshit about religion. I think they'll have more of a problem than I will.

Megyn Kelly

I got. I got to leave it at that because we're coming up against a hard break. But I agree with you that God is fair and he is honorable, and he. I believe he will have the last say. Sammy the Bull Gravano, thank you so much for telling your story and as I say, for what the mob says, giving testimony that led to, in their view, what the FBI has said led to the demise of organized crime in New York. I mean, amazing. All the best to you. His podcast is called Our Thing, and his miniseries the Salvatore is coming out next week. My God, what just happened? What just happened in that last two hours? My team and I were just talking about. It just like, went to a lot of places I did not expect the thing about James Caan. But, you know, there's something to be learned there because we have been so fascinated by the mob in this country. So fascinated by the mob. And it is interesting to listen to somebody who was in it at the highest levels talk about how it works and what the ethical code actually looks like. Looks like, right? Like some of that stuff. At the end, I behaved honorably. That's how he sees it, how he believes in God, but doesn't think that there will be any judgment for him because he thinks God made him the way he God made me alive. I mean, that stuff was very eye opening to me in terms of how his brain works and how people can live a life like this. How could you live a life where you kill 19 people? I understand he says they agreed to live by the same code, but, you know, the rest of us who live by a very different code have trouble understanding any of this. And it's an organization that's had its tentacles in American society for 100 plus years. Right. So it's like, anyway, there's a lot to be learned, and our fascination with this group remains. It may be dwindling. It's not done in New York, but it's certainly not what it used to be. But it's still out there. And, you know, it gets glorified in virtually every Hollywood movie still to this day. So I don't know. I enjoyed the exchange and I enjoyed listening to, you know, his take on it obviously disagrees with, with a lot of his ethical conclusions as I'm sure you did, but I learned a little bit and I hope you did too. Thanks for listening to the Megyn Kelly Show. No bs, no agenda and no fear. So good, so good. So good.

Salvatore 'Sammy the Bull' Gravano

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