A

And when they came down to interview us about that accident, they just closed the book. And they were like, look, we don't understand how you guys operate down here. We wouldn't bless half these things in the States, but it works for you guys.

B

Today's episode takes us into the intersection of global aviation, operational leadership, and the extraordinary experiences that define a life in naval aviation. Joining us in the ready room is Captain Chris Callahan, a retired U.S. navy Reserve aviator whose career spans combat missions, Antarctic operations, and global logistics aviation. Chris flew across multiple aviation communities, from electronic reconnaissance with VQ2 to the extreme conditions of Antarctica with VXC6 to commanding logistics squadron supporting operations around the world. During Desert Storm, he flew combat reconnaissance missions in hostile environments, providing real time intelligence that directly supported coalition forces. Later, as a commanding officer, he led large scale aviation operations, supporting global missions across Europe, the Pacific, and the Middle East. But perhaps most uniquely, Chris is a part of a rare group of aviators who have flown US Navy aircraft on all seven continents, including some of the most remote and unforgiving environments on Earth. So, without further ado, Chris, welcome to the radio room.

A

All right, that was good.

B

So I sometimes like to start with how we got connected, because naval aviation is such a small world. So there's no formal way for someone to say, I want to be on the podcast. And I don't know, we just kind of have it that way. It's kind of grassroots growing. And so I'm at my desk here at the foundation, or I was out, and I get a stack of paper. There's about six papers on my desk that says it's a letter, really formal letter, written to me saying, hey, I think you should really interview this gentleman named Chris Callahan. He has some great flying experience. And, oh, by the way, he's my brother. And I said, whoa. Okay. So I read this, and later on I met your brother. So your brother, a retired Navy captain as well, from the Reserves, intel officer who is now here, a volunteer at the museum. And so he's the one who provided me with that information. And you and I connected after that. I think the first time we started emailing one another was you were cross countrying with your son, PCSing him out to VR61 at Whidbey, which we'll get to in a little bit. Small world again. So, yeah, I just can't believe that. But before I start with the questions, I do want to read this because I think this kind of sets the stage on exactly, kind of why you're here today, which is great. So this is from the association of Naval Aviation on April 9, 1988 and they're pleased to present the outstanding achievement award for fleet support and special mission Aviation to Lieutenant Christopher Paul Callahan. I forgot to mention your call signs. Harry. Harry Callahan. Which is awesome. Clint Eastwood. My dad was a cop.

A

Yeah, there you go.

B

In right near San Francisco in Hayward for 10, 20 years. So big Dirty Harry fan. For services set forth in the following citation, Lieutenant Callahan, during his first tour as a naval aviator, is rated as the top lieutenant in Antarctic Development Squadron 6. Continuously distinguishing himself throughout the year during their deployment to Antarctica for operation deep freeze 88. Typical of his many difficult missions, this is where it gets good. It was crew pilot for the longest medevac in deep freeze history. A 3800 mile, 17 hour transatlantic sortie to a remote snow covered open field station which allowed no air in navigation or fuel. Planning to pull out a seriously ill man, he volunteered to fly a scientist to a camp in an area of known thick and wet snow. Realizing that takeoff conditions would be difficult, after nine attempts during which the maximum takeoff speed of 40 knots was achieved, he elected to delay to allow the packed snow from the previous takeoff attempts to harden. In the meantime, he let his fuel load burn down to the absolute minimum necessary for one full final takeoff and return to home base. His calculations proved to be correct and the takeoff was successful. Routinely must face demanding hazardous environmental phenomena encountered in the Antarctic, such as whiteout, reduced depth perception, thick wet snow, ice, severe weather, open area lands. And takeoffs time and time again through detailed planning, growing experience, the most precious precise and skillful airmanship operated the aircraft safely to its limit in the most demanding conditions encountered by a naval aviator. Man, that is truly impressive. But my first question is, why did you become a naval aviator?

A

It's funny, I come from a legacy of other naval aviators and growing up as a teenage boy, you know, watching my dad come home in his bag and oftentimes from the golf course or from the happy hour, you know, he's always smiling and he was always competitive, he was always full of life. And I just remember saying to myself, I. I don't know what he does. He could be digging ditches, but boy, he sure does have a good time and he sure loves his job. And so I threw my hat in the ring and, you know, never ever flew a flight before I got out to flight training. I didn't know if I was actually going to love the art of flying. I just wanted to get into this world of camaraderie. And perfectionist competitiveness, teasing and ribbing and just trying to do your best. So that's all. That was it in a nutshell.

B

That's awesome. So tell me a little bit about your dad, though, if you don't mind.

A

Well, okay. I'm a product of 2Dads. My father was an A4 pilot in 1968. He ended up dying at sea. He was coming back from a strike, and his hydraulic package went. And coming down to the carrier, it didn't hold up, and he didn't make it. And then my other dad, my stepdad, we always think there's a lot of angels, and he's one of them. He took on a widow and married a widow with four boys. And he was a F8 pilot. And we got to watch him, you know, go on cruises and come back from cruises, and he's the one I was telling you about that made me really want to be a pilot, you know, because as a teenager, he had taken over. So we had the A4 pilot, we had the F8 pilot, then me with a C130, and then later you'll talk about my son with H60. So I think we've done the three.

B

I would say, covered it all. Yeah, man. And that is quite a legacy. I mean, there are people who do grab onto that and really want to experience that. But then you find people who you did do it once, and there isn't anything. Right. It's just their desire. So I think that's actually pretty unique. I don't think that happens all that often to be able to have multiple generations of naval aviators. It does happen, but it's not as often, I think, as you would think, to be honest with you. So we were just talking about how you joined the Navy, and we're talking about AOCs. So describe. And I mentioned Navcad, because, like I said, I had a couple of NavCad CEOs in my day, you know, in the late 90s or mid. In early 90s. Early in mid 2000. So tell me about the program you went through, because probably not a lot of people on here know about that.

A

Yeah, it was a dying program. You know, Reagan's Navy would. They would take all comers, you know, the 600. And that's how a B student from San Diego State geography got in the program. And that's it. And so I was able to get in something called avrock. And the intent of avrock was to go through the tough portions, the GI Gunny boot camp portion. Then you'd go back and you'd finish your senior year, then you'd come back for the other portions, the pre flight survival swim quals. So, yeah, I got lucky to have one of these weird type of pipelines. But you know, like I was telling you, the beauty is that it gave me two years longevity for pay. And most of that two years was, you know, going to Aztec games.

B

Yeah, yeah.

A

So it always ticks off the academy guys because they didn't start their pay until day one.

B

Yeah, that's true.

A

After they throw the hat up until you.

B

Ginson.

A

That's right. That's right.

B

Yeah. No, that's good, actually. I like that. Good old San Diego State. So go through the program. What were your thoughts? Jet pilot like your two dads. What did you want to do? I'm sure you didn't say, hey, I want to go fly for VXE6. Who is that? And it's interesting that you got that as your first assignment out of flight school. It kind of surprised. It doesn't. I mean, this is back in the 80s, right?

A

Yeah, mid-80s.

B

So I can kind of see that that was awake. I know guys who in the 80s would select and get like a station SAR H3 gig and then have to go to C, you know, after that. So did you know anything about VXE6? You're like, I want to fly C130s or I'm a jet guy. And now I'm angry because I didn't get jets. So I'm going to choose this. How did that work?

A

Well, let me get to that. But before we even get there, now you're assuming that AOCs was easy.

B

Yeah, you made it.

A

Well, and here's the tough part about AOCs is that we were Navy brats. Right here, my house, for three years. We would look and see the people running the obstacle course. It was in our backyard. And we would be as teens running around that base. We'd be fishing from the ramps, we would be hanging around the parachute slide. So getting out there and five in the morning, doing hop and pops and push ups and then looking over and seeing a Hobie cat go along. It was a tough road to hoe. So I got through that. And you're absolutely right. I wanted jets and been getting mentored about jets and worked hard, had the good grades, you know, and unbeknownst to me, on selection day, there were two guys from the week ahead that I didn't know that they had gone med down because they wanted higher slots in selection. And so there are four jet slots and only one prop slot. So these guys pretend they had diarrhea and bumped me out. I had flown in my girlfriend to propose to her at Bennigan's up at UWF or the mall. And all I know is that they bumped me out and I drove halfway to Alabama and back before I realized I still got to go and propose my girlfriend and tell her that I'm just going to be a prop guy now, years later or a year later. It was a lot what you said. It was that if I'm not going to be landing with a tail hook, what's in my world? What's the next toughest challenge? And I learned about the ski equipped C130s in Antarctica that were having to fly with non precision equipment with white out procedures with no weather. Guessing really Antarctica as you take off from point A on an observation to Chicago on point B if you will for mileage with no satellite, no understanding of what type of real weather is out there. And so you can see how interesting 1980s Antarctic flying was. So you know, I put in for it. And there's only two ensign pilots a year that get selected. So I lucked out. I may have written down something that plead to the detailer and it could have worked.

B

Oh yeah, yeah, a little letter.

A

I will tell you this. So as soon as I got it, the VT31 skipper tried to talk me out and to push me to go to vp.

B

Oh that's funny.

A

Well, and the whole idea was it was a non morpher specialty. And right away he's like Chris, this is going to screw your career up. And that point I'm like hey, I'm no longer thinking career. I'm thinking just getting the best bang for buck.

B

Yeah.

A

Flying.

B

What an experience.

A

Yeah.

B

That's interesting. Yeah. Okay, so you did, did you primary here at Whiting and then you went down to advance the VT31 to fly the Beach King right down there?

A

Yeah, C12.

B

Yeah, C12. And then you selected VXC6 out of there. That is actually pretty cool that I never thought about that. Right, yeah. You're going to be a logistics guy, but you're right, you're not going to do any submarine warfare or whatever it is you know to get an AQD in order to do that.

A

That's like I ended up getting that with VQ2.

B

Oh yeah, right, yeah.

A

Okay.

B

Which, yeah, we'll get to that too.

A

So.

B

Okay. Yeah. VT. Okay. So at the time where was VXE6 out of? They were out of Point Magoo, is that correct? That's right. So you got to essentially go back to Southern California, a little further north than San Diego, not a big deal, and then start flying. So when was your first actual mission as a co pilot to get down there? I was actually looking at McMurdo Station, actually on Google Maps this morning, kind of. I didn't really know where it was. I'm not saying more familiar, but when I think of Antarctica, I read a book not too long ago on the Falklands War. And so I think of that and

A

there's Antarctica, you know, Palmer Peninsula, which is not.

B

Yeah, exactly. And I'd read a book about Ernest Shackleton. Right. And his escapades down there. So that's all on that side where if you go McMurdo Station, it's way over here. From there, long distance.

A

It's on the bottom of Australia.

B

Yeah, it is. I did not know that. So I assume that's why you all were based on the west coast. Cause then you would fly down and hit like New Zealand or Australia and then go into Antarctica.

A

Yeah, and it was six month deployments. People don't know it was a cruise setup. You'd go away for six months. And then the other fallacy that floats around the Navy is that we would stay in Christchurch and just do hits. No, it was just like a full blown Navy squadron, complete with their own dentists, their own supply officers, their own doctors and a composite squadron, you know, hilos and.

B

Yeah, you had hilos.

A

Right. And so we would actually hit the ice and we would stay on that continent for five and a half months. So we then rinse and repeat, we'd go back to California for our summer. And since we weren't into any kind of logistics there, those summers off would be where everybody would fleet up to the next seat.

B

Got it. Do all your training that you need to take care of. New people come in, PCs, all that. Never knew that you guys did that. I thought it was just like you said, Operation Deep Freeze. You're going to have like two weeks switch out because it's the National Science Foundation. Is that what is that you guys would directly support and switch out some scientists, some gear, and then you guys fly home? Not that at all. And then were the Hueys there and then they would bring the scientists wherever they needed to go locally once you got them down there.

A

That's right, man, they had the best gig.

B

Yeah, leave it to the Hilo guys.

A

There were two reasons they got to see the real neat parts of The Trans Antarctics and the Explorer huts. But the second part was that these colleges and universities would put in for like 10 year waits to go and do some science project and they were always allocated three. And it'd be some PhD who got it and then it'd be his assistant who's trying to become a Ph.D. and then it'd be some like Geology 101 co ed who would come down to the ice, you know. And so my Hilo friends, we could only drink one night a week. I mean we had Sundays off and it was amazing to go into the little bar and see some professor pissed off because the Hilo pilot over here suddenly talking to coed. But that may not have been a really great talk, but yeah, yeah, yeah. Anyhow. Oh my gosh, all my Hilo friends will be happy to.

B

I'm sure that we're loving it. So yeah, you obviously go down there in the summers, Antarctic summers, but still a summer there is, I mean, blowing snow, ice, you name it, poor visibility, everything like that. So yeah. So your first time going down there as a co pilot, I assume. What did you think when you first landed on there, flew in, landed, stepped on the unknown continent?

A

Well, you know, it's really weird because before that there's something called Windfly. So we actually go down there prior to our six month deployment for two weeks. So Windfly is short for winter fly in. And what we do is we bring in the Seabees and we bring in tower and GCA guys and then they're going to wait like six months or six weeks and then we finally go in there for our whole blown deployment. So the first time that you go in, you actually go in on skis at the very end of their winter. And then the next time you come in for your deployment, you're coming in with Air Force 141 guys, you're coming in with Kiwi Hercs, you're coming in sometimes even with Marines that want to come down there because the Seabees have planed out an 8,000 foot ice Runway. And the ice, it's frozen, it's like, you know, 10ft. And the first thing I remember now, I didn't have the landing because I was on qual, but sitting in the cockpit, the ice will actually bend a little bit. So you can't pring a landing on the iceway. It's like, if you can imagine, a waterbed just gives a little bit. So as hard as you can try, the ice will literally just kind of flex a little bit and so anyhow, that's what I was impressed by. Like, holy cow, this is going to be. Be fun, these kind of landings. Now, when you get to the skis, that'll be a different story where it beats you up.

B

Yeah. So are all your landings done on skis or. No?

A

No, and that's what I'm saying. So you start out the season on wheels, out of the ice way, and then what happens? About two months in and that starts. And then, you know, you'll do continent hits and you'll land up in the pole with skis. But then when you come back, for about the first two months, you'll actually land with wheels. And then what ends up happening is the CBS and engineers determine at some point that, hey, it's no longer structural. And then we move up into the shelf and then it's ski to ski.

B

Okay, so there's a change in.

A

That's right.

B

And SOP essentially halfway through the plan or whatever it is to do that. And when you said so, you would fly from McMurdo then to the Pole, which was like Edmondson Scott, I think was the, the name that I saw. Yeah. And so that's where some of the other scientific research was being done or was as well. And so you would go. How long was that flight?

A

That was. Let's see what that one is. Three hours.

B

I mean, that's a third of the way across the United States.

A

Well, I always tell friends, it's like we'd go to this place called Sipal Station. It was five hours away, and Sipal was set up with these long. What do you call vlf, huh?

B

Oh, antennas.

A

Yes. So we're supposed to say that, oh, no, it's all science. But we'd go to sipo, that would do some science and then some monitoring of these long antennas. But that was five hours away. And just imagine like leaving Pensacola and going five hours away to San Francisco and not knowing anything other than somebody has taken an observation an hour before you depart to say, oh, yeah, well, San Francisco right now is clear and blue skies. And then you get there six hours later, you know, maybe not so much.

B

Yeah, right. And it's all dead reckoning.

A

Nav. No, the navigators would have ins and we would switch to grid navigation, which would put everything we would leave to the south. But you'd actually be going grid north. It's so weird. And I mean, once we get into the approaches where the navigators could actually give us steerage into non precision conned approach is what they called it. Do you want to hear that one?

B

Not yet.

A

Okay.

B

Okay. So you make a deployment down there as a non aircraft commander. Right, right.

A

2p.

B

As a 2p.

A

Right. We're actually 3p'd start.

B

Oh, yeah, because you guys will have three.

A

That's right, 3p.

B

And then came back, did your train, and then, you know, you were there your first time, you're like, oh, my gosh, this is the craziest. It's like the moon kind of. And then come back to Point Magoo, do your train up. Did you deploy as a 2P down

A

there as well next time? Yeah.

B

Okay.

A

Yep.

B

And then did the rotation, came back again, and then went down as an aircraft commander after that.

A

That's right, yeah.

B

I mean, was the flying always as hairy as what I read, or was this a special? The citation I read was that something different. You know what I mean? Was normal ops always difficult flying, or was it like, hey, it's clear blue sky today, this is gorgeous. Or I mean, was it a challenge every single time that you flew?

A

Well, you're getting me confused for a P3 guy because it was a challenge every time you flew. It really was, and here's why. Half of your mission was science put inside and pull outs. And before you did that, you went to someplace. For me, it was University of Pittsburgh. The people I was going to bring in were going to collect meteors and rock samples. So to do that, you had to go in the Trans Antarctic and find a glacier and put it in. But not so fast, because what happens on glaciers, well, crevasses form. And so part of Antarctic flying is learning how to do the type of, you know, landings, which is really just a low flyby, you know, touching the backside of your skis. And then you come back up and you reconnoitre it to see if any bridges, crevasse bridges have fallen in. So then if you okay that, you fly back China 200ft away to replicate it, not banana, any direction to then touch down there. And then you come and you look at that one. And now what you've defined, if there's no bridges that have collapsed, is a working area 8,000ft, you know, that you could taxi around. And then the trick was on the last pass, you landed in your own ski drags. So that was the science, put ins and pull outs. And then as far as the other aspects, there was only south pole in McMurdo that had GCAS.

B

I can't believe you had GCA there.

A

Right. But everything else was done by those conned you know, was it like an

B

NDB approach, essentially non directional beacon. Is that what it was or.

A

Well, no, but. Okay, well, well, McMurdo had that, they had an attack in, and South Pole had attack in. But on the continent, your navigator bringing you out on a six mile final on an INS or not an ins, he's looking in his radar and then he's seen drift and he calls you all the way down.

B

So someone had to think about all those procedures back in the day to figure that out, you know.

A

Well, and I know how because, you know, it's smart enough to read about it. But when Bird came through there, they were doing very much bush pilot type of stuff. And then later when Dufet came out there and Bird again with Operation High Jump, they had seaplanes too. So a lot of this stuff, you know, coming in low and flat was more of a seaplane.

B

Oh sure, yeah. Seplane approach.

A

That's right. And so that's what we would do on those non. I forget what we call them anyhow, cond approaches.

B

Wow, that's pretty interesting. So real quick, sidebar. So you would meet with the scientists prior to them coming down so you could get to know them and know what they want to do, how much gear they wanted to bring. Essentially that was it.

A

So we would sit there, me and the load master and the flight engineer and I would bring out sharks and then we meet with the professor and his assistant and the co ed, you know, and they would sit there and say, well, this is where we'd like to think that these things will collect on the sides of a glacier. And then we'd say, okay, well how about this area here between these two mountains? You know, and then we'd. Okay, sounds good. How much? Then it'd be, how much are you gonna. And then, you know, and the load master would spin his stuff and then we'd say, okay, you know, we think this will work. Can't be any heavier than X. Oh my gosh.

B

So that was all the pre mission planning.

A

That's right. That was a year out. You'd meet with them.

B

Dang.

A

All right.

B

I didn't even think about this. How big is the squadron?

A

It was like 240 people.

B

That's not that many at all. And yet how many airplanes?

A

Six. We'd only take five on deployment.

B

Well, you took five airplanes though, down there?

A

Yeah.

B

Oh my gosh. I mean, 5C 130s, that seems like a lot, but okay, that's. To me, that's not a very big footprint of people as well for a squadron that size. I mean, normal HSC squadron right now is about that. And you, I mean, kind of every air wing squadron right now is about that. Expeditionary squadrons are bigger, but that's really not that, in my opinion, kind of big of a footprint.

A

We didn't have NFOs. I mean, we did, we had the navigators, but we didn't. Like a VQ2 was so big because we had had a 3 NFCOS and we had P3 and.

B

Yep. Listen to all the beeps and squeaks or the. Yeah. VP guys doing ASW because of that.

A

Yeah, because that squadron was like 280. And I got out there okay, tracking.

B

So now that we're kind of into you going down there a few times and having some experience, let's talk specifically about this 3,800 mile, 17 hour medevac mission across Antarctica. How did that go down?

A

Well, it was sane. South African national, Antarctica exploration. They had their own little camp there was like the original signers of the Antarctic Treaty all have their own camps.

B

In McMurdo?

A

No, the continent. And so theirs was on the other side. And they didn't have enough Runway or skiways. They could get otters in from what you're talking, you know, actually from the south tip of Africa for them. Anyhow, one of their guys ended up getting some severe case of appendicitis. And we were called to go out there and we didn't even have it on charts. You know, our whole plan was to go out, hit the coast and steer. Right. You know, it's a dead reckoning.

B

Yeah, just follow along and hopefully you see them.

A

That's right. And we were doing HF comms with these guys and we'd asked them to get the biggest mirror and somebody went into a bathroom, you know, the old shaving, you know, unscrewed that. And then we were coming in, we were like 70 miles out. And all of a sudden we saw. You know, because the sun angles in the snow are so good when you can see cuts from a long way at a. And so we could see a cut and we're like, hey, that's a ski doo trail. So we started following that in and then all of a sudden, somewhere about 40 miles out, you could see a flash. And that dude was out there with a big old bathroom mirror and we could see the flash.

B

Were you flying at a thousand feet?

A

Oh, no, we were up.

B

Oh, way up high.

A

Yeah, we were up, but still. Anyhow, and then we just did our ski drag operations and picked him up and it was another five hours back. And by the time we landed, he just transferred onto another airplane that took him up to Christchurch. And so the, the total ended up being 17 hours.

B

Weather turned out to be okay.

A

Yeah, he did. As a matter of fact. We were all teasing. It's like, oh, that's just a, what a good deal. Like leave Antarctica, go, you know, to Christchurch.

B

Well, he's definitely a long way from home, though. Christ Church to South Africa. That's a little bit of a distance. Oh, my gosh.

A

Wow.

B

Any other missions that you remember that not say scared you made you just appreciate your flying down there that, you know, left an impression on you.

A

Yeah. And I guess it would be alluding to that award that I received during that season. We had lost the ability of Jato bottles and there was an explosion at Indian Head and we were outlawed from using them. And we also had a crash that year. And the skipper was supposed to do the put in to Tucker Glacier because it was the toughest one, but he was like just jam solid with having to do accident investigations and HF phone patches. And so at the last minute I got his science put in and it was really a tough, tough day. We went in with science and of course I didn't meet with this party. And the skipper had, you know, forewarned me that it was a tough put in because it was a big slope. So we land, we do all our procedures, and then when we land, we almost instantaneously come to a stop because it's wet. And you know, the Teflon coating on the bottom of skis usually will melt on friction and melt a layer. And the man, we stopped pretty quick. So we knew we were in trouble. We stepped outside and then we actually felt some moistures on our hands and our face. And very rare for precipitation at all in Antarctica. But we were getting a little bit of drizzle. So now we were saddled with no Jato and a little bit of wet snow and we started trying to do our takeoff. And like, that showed. We only got up to 40 knots in Antarctica. In VXE6, the gouge is if you can get up to 60 knots to get your nose off, then chances are you've got a good way of getting off the Jato bottles, that's what that'll do. Everybody watches Fat Albert here and it obviously gives him a propulsion, but on the ice it doesn't. It just moves you at like 20 knots. So in Antarctic flying, it's like if you couldn't get to 60, you know, you loaded Jado and if you got to 65 with Jado, you pop the nose and then you just started flying like a water skier. You just started planing. And then we were big time flyers in Minimum Air vmca and so oftentimes in this case, we started throwing flaps. We actually did landing flaps, you know, 50 flaps just to get the ass up a little bit. And then once you break, you're pretty much in VMC air. Now you're flying. You can't dictate if you're going to go left or right, but you're not on the ground. But you're not on the ground. And that was kind of what that day was. You know, we ended up doing all kinds of iterations of flaps and we were standing by in McMurdo Ops. We're actually going to start sending a Herc up to the plateau with a Hilo. And the Hilo would have been able to help us out, you know, with removing weight and whatnot. But we, our last attempt, you know, like the Ward said, we waited until the snow crystallized and stayed in the crystal snow, and it worked. Wow.

B

And so like I said, you get up a little bit and I mean, like when you said you would actually get off the ground a little bit, but you knew you couldn't do it, you would set it back down again and then taxi back and then attempt it again or you had miles ahead of you and you would just kind of do that and then do it again. Or how'd that work?

A

Well, in this case, it was just clearly goal one is get the nose up. And so we got the nose up and then momentarily just threw some flaps and then brought them back. So momentarily, just to kind of allow the nose to get in a more aerodynamic position instead of ski dragging. And now your nose is down and then about the time you start getting up to 70 knots, then you just start easing the flaps a little bit forward to takeoff position. And so back then, the Herc didn't have stall clackers, but I'm pretty sure it might have been doing it.

B

Yeah, I was gonna say, I mean, you're right on that edge.

A

Sure. Right, right.

B

Wow. No rudder shaker, nothing like that.

A

No. Well, I don't think the Herc had it.

B

Is that right?

A

You're right. But you would find out during that year that we had one crew that landed up in the polar plateau. And since he didn't have the Jato bottles, he ended up doing something like a two hour power on taxi. If you will toward McMurdo. So grid south, Right. And these guys, they just sat there, basically, not really smoking, but just some power on until they burned down in two hours of, you know, whatever, 40 knots. I don't know. You know, I'm not fast enough on

B

the skis, just skiing on the ice

A

just toward home, until finally they burned enough fuel where then they could get going.

B

That is amazing. I mean, you hear about overwater aviators, right, who dump down so they can get down to landing weight or just like I said, doing holes in the sky until you got to burn it down. But I've never heard of anyone skiing across an ice plateau trying to burn gas down in order to take off.

A

That was a rare year. If we had the Jado bottles, you know, then we would have been able to. Both those things just would have been easy.

B

Ah, okay. I'm tracking.

A

We were having to reinvent the wheel.

B

Yep. Well, like I said, forming up a whole new SOP and doing everything.

A

Well, that never became sop.

B

No. Well, maybe it's good and it didn't. Right? Right, yes. It didn't have to. But I mean, whoever that aircraft commander was to think or whoever suggested it to say, hey, we're going to try to do this, I mean, that environment just. You had to audible to something.

A

Right.

B

You had to get creative. You had to do back in the day. I don't know if they. If we really called it risk analysis back then, but just to be able to do that, to keep on going, to be able to complete the mission, that's amazing.

A

Well, later you might talk about the three, two, one story, but the part about that crash is that the our air wing was the S3 guys. And when they came down to interview us about that accident, they just closed the book. And they were like, look, we don't understand how you guys operate down here. We wouldn't bless half these things in the States, but it works for you guys, right?

B

How else are you going to be able to operate down here?

A

Right.

B

Yeah. And what you're referring to, right, is aircraft three, two, one, who suffered a catastrophic fire and a couple people died. So unfortunately. Wow, that is truly amazing. But I do want to move on to your time at VQ2 and keep going here. So at that point, you finished up your time there. Like it's super successful. I think you said you're number one of 42. Jos. What do you want to do next? We're talking about this at lunch and they're going to send you to recruit It's a recruiting duty. You're like, no, no, no, no, I want to fly. But you need a warfare specialty. So that's when VQ2 came up, correct?

A

Yeah, that's right. Yeah. I actually put in for a jet transition.

B

Oh, you did? Oh, okay.

A

Right. And unbeknownst to me that there's a board like the Wednesday of the week that the jet transition happens, which is the Friday, and the Wednesday board is just called Warfare Specialty Board. So they have to approve you first that they're going to let you go as a warfare specialty. But on that board, it was a board for a VQ1 and two aviators. And so we got taken. Me and my buddy, my best friend. We both did it at the same board. We got yanked off. We got our warfare specialty approval, and then we didn't get jets. And then we found out is because the board that could assign us a warfare specialty at VQ1 or 2 took us. So when the jet thing happened, I wasn't even there. My package. I'm going to Spain.

B

Yeah, that's right. Probably worse places to be.

A

Yeah. Guam. Yeah, that was the other one. Yeah.

B

Yeah. My roommate from school was a VQ NFO. So his first duty station was VQ2 for three years. And he loved it. He spoke Spanish fluently and he traveled all over the place. And I mean, the stories he has of doing some pre. And this was, you know, so he got weaned in 1996. So, you know, 9, 11 hadn't happened yet, but he was gallivanting all around Europe doing stuff. So how was VQ2? Well, don't tell me. World Watchers.

A

No, that was the Guam one. I don't even know what we were.

B

Hopefully someone will comment and tell me what it was.

A

We were the Sandy Men. There was a Sherry producer who had like 2,000 acres and our symbol was Don, you know, and the Sandy Man.

B

Oh, yeah. From Port Wine.

A

That's right.

B

Yeah, that's what that is.

A

Yes.

B

I never really put two and two together.

A

Yeah. And for so many years, you always heard the story about King Ranch would always down in Texas would have big barbecue for the Kingsville. And guys, well, never heard that. Well, okay. Well, they did okay. But out in Spain, the Sandy man would have a big party once a year for us too, because they were so impressive. You know, we had our tail fin was there the dawn.

B

It is. Yep. That is wild.

A

Anyhow, it was great. It was different flying, you know, right away, I'll tell you, I lost all my Skills, my scans. Because VQ flying, the reconnaissance flying is in a void in Marsa. And so, you know, most of that is doing par pro tracks in the Mediterranean and avoiding the airlines. So it was interesting mission.

B

Yeah. Special reconnaissance. Right. You're loaded with NFOs, cryptologists, you name it. You're driving the bus up front. Mission commander. Right. But you got to know kind of what's going on. But in the back, they're just listening to stuff all the time. Right. Signals intelligence.

A

That's right.

B

So, man, how was living in Spain?

A

It was good. It was like San Diego. You know, I was on the base, but it was a climate just like San Diego.

B

You're right. Yep. The Met is just like that, right?

A

Yeah. And the Spanish have their whole philosophy, everything can happen tomorrow, don't sweat it today. And so it was a great place for my wife to be. I was in Sigonel a lot, in Suda Bay, Crete, and in Athens, Greece and all places up in England. So I was gone more in that squadron than I was at VXG6. And it was a sea tour.

B

Yep. And like I said, supported all the stuff going on in the Middle east during your time there too. So then very, I'm sure, I assume, successful tour there. And then you kind of came to a point. What made you decide to kind of switch out and go something different at that point?

A

Well, we had just done Desert Storm and what I realized in true eye opening fashion is that the Navy didn't really understand how to use EP3s organically with a ship. And so there were many times it got very confusing in the fog of war. And there was a little bit of disappointment in the fact that it's like, okay, this is really. The EP3s started working with the carriers after the A3s went away. And then true EP3s should have just always been doing the long term reconnaissance. So there was a little bit of that. And then there's a little bit of me worrying about, had I stayed in that community, I would either be in Spain or Guam and my kids would be growing up in DOD school. So I thought, let's see what it looks like, like getting back to the States and flying for the airlines. Awesome.

B

But you decided to stay in the reserves.

A

Yep.

B

Yep. And so then what did you do reserve wise after that, ultimately with coming to VR61?

A

Yeah, that was a funny story too, because I got on San Diego and got just a routine drill weekend type of job. And at that stage I was a blue card holder for P3s.

B

Okay. NATOP's instructor.

A

Yep. And I thought I could just go up the street to Point Magoo, had a VP outfit. And so I put in my package and like, hey, man, I know P3s. I'm an evaluator instructor. And I got turned down there. And I'm like, okay, that's no fun getting turned down. So then I put in for the DC9, the C9B outfit at North Island. But they're very territorial.

B

Yeah, yeah, yeah, territorial. That's a good one. Yeah. A bro club.

A

That's it. And I wasn't an S3 guy, so I got turned down for that.

B

Oh, that's a good point. Yeah. A lot of S3 guys at North island get out and probably do that,

A

go right to that outfit. And so what I eventually get is Whidbey island at 61, which was the same way with A6s and EA6s. But I had put my package in for both the P3 squadron in Whidbey and the VR squadron. And so I had gotten a pretty good rapport with that skipper. And they all sat on the same board. And so that skipper, they couldn't approve me because they wanted all these guys with the attacks. But so he helped me get into 61 because his vote swayed the day because the real skipper of VR61 did not want a prop guy. He wanted his own A6 Bubba. And so, anyhow, I snuck into VR61. A great decision, just flying reserves. And doing that mission was just a ball. It's like being in an airline. You could do domestic flying on one day, which would be down to San Diego, down to Norfolk and back, or spend the night and then, you know, back. Or then you go on 17 day deployments, either to Sigonella or you go to Atsugi. And then when you're out there, you're international, so just like an airline, you're getting all kinds of different flying.

B

Sounds awesome. I actually had a buddy of mine, a Hilo guy as well, classmate of mine, who ended up going tar and then got C9s out of Willow Grove before they decommed. Right. I'm pretty sure. So, yeah, man, that's pretty funny.

A

DC9s, they used to have like 11 squadrons. They had them Willow Grove. They had them in Chicago, Detroit, Memphis.

B

Well, I didn't ever known about those.

A

Right.

B

Dang. But then there were also VR C130 squadrons. So any reason why you didn't want to go back to fly the HERC again? Or is that just not an option? Because of where they were at the time.

A

Yeah, it was where they were at the time. They were only in New Orleans in West Virginia at that time. And Weymouth, the West Virginia guys went to Weymouth. But I did try to go tar C130s when they moved to Alameda.

B

Oh, that's not a bad place.

A

I got turned down for that, too. I get turned down a lot because it went. It was no longer Reagan's Navy. Yeah. Oh, yeah. They realized that a geography student from San Diego State probably shouldn't get picked up.

B

Hey, geography, that's a great major. I love geography.

A

Yeah.

B

Okay. But we're talking persistence here, right? I mean, that's exactly what it is. It's like, hey, they don't want me. I'm going to go here. I'm going to go here. You end up landing at a VR61, flying the DC9 on the reserve side, but then in the civilian side, now you start moving towards airline flying. So tell me, where did you start there?

A

Horizon Airlines, an outfit out of Portland that would fly feeder service for Alaska.

B

Yeah, still around.

A

Yeah. And that was my intent, was like, okay, I'll try to flow through and be happy, you know, at Alaska Airlines.

B

Oh, yeah, that's a great thing because.

A

Right, yeah.

B

So you didn't go to Alaska. Said you went to United. So how long did you spend at Horizon?

A

Three years.

B

Okay, what'd you fly there?

A

Dash 8. So it was like a C130 that shrunk in the.

B

Yeah, true. Twin engines that are four, but kind of essentially the same thing. So a little smaller.

A

Yeah, it was a great plane. Yeah.

B

So then, like I said, feeder to Alaska can be based out of Seattle, all along the coast, Portland, whatever it is you want to, but ultimately you land at U. United. So what happened with Alaska?

A

You know, I just never got the call and I was big picture enough to know that I'll just take any call that comes. I loved Alaska. I mean, half our squadron, you know, was Alaska's.

B

Oh, that's funny. 61. Yeah. Alaska pilots.

A

Yeah. I had all kinds of people pushing, you know, and helping me and just never got the interview. And I'm not going to say a bad word about that outfit. They're good. And it's just that United called and at that point they had a Seattle base. And so, you know, I ended up getting my best wish being close to drive. I could drive two hours from my house.

B

Yeah, that's not bad.

A

Not at all.

B

Yeah. Home based. You had mentioned earlier that they did close Seattle. But then how long were you in Seattle as a base guy?

A

I would say 15 years.

B

Whoa. I mean, that's great.

A

Yeah.

B

Wow. Okay. And then what did you start flying there?

A

That was a 737 to start. And then I went to 767 and 911 hit. So we all got pushed back with the recession and the furloughs. And so I was back on the 737 and then finally was able to get back to the 767. And it wasn't until I got to San Francisco, where I got to fly the Triple seven.

B

Okay. And then as a seven five seven six guy, then. Were you doing international? No, no, just across the United States.

A

Yeah. And we didn't even do Hawaii, so we were just hitting Boston, Orlando, and. And that was a great gig.

B

Wow. You didn't have to deal with flying throughout the night as a relief officer and then spending 13 hours in the airplane or anything like that.

A

And it was even better. I mean, inside baseball, it was because since we didn't have the overwater qual, the company wouldn't tap us to go and do those reserve call outs. So, yeah, we were kind of a nice little quiet.

B

Yeah. A little domestic action. Kind of almost like hidden secret there. Right. Interesting. And then so then eventually, though, United closes down or the base, and you got onto SFO and transition there. What's it like flying the Triple seven compared to everyone says so. I have friends who are seven, five, six guys and said that it's the most overpowered aircraft that there is for very safe, you know, hands flying, hand flying. It is supposed to be really good. What's the Triple seven like compared to that? Totally different.

A

Well, I would tell you, your friend's right. The 757 is like having a sports car. You know, it handles well, it accelerates fast. But the 777 is more like having a Tesla in the fact that it's designed so well, that the 67 years at Boeing were very heavy into engineers designing without ever asking pilots. And there were many times in the 67 where, you know, why didn't they put that up here? You know, why didn't they make something like this? You know? And when you got to the 777 and then the follow on 87 and you could tell that pilots were involved. The switches were more user friendly, and they implemented things like if you lost an engine on the Runway, it put in the required rudder to keep the nose going in the correct yaw. And so very well Designed and getting to the hand flying. You know, at United, at least in San Francisco, the culture is still pretty good with hand flying that airplane because you can do domestic flying with that or you can go to the islands in the seven, triple seven, you go out to Guam. And a lot of the guys that if they're doing enough flying, they'll click everything off and just, you know, like get in the pattern. And it's not that rare, you know, where most people will do the 15 hour Sydney and back and they'll keep it on autopilot way too long. But the guys that still want to practice their art, they'll get on there and click things off and it's a good beast to hand fly.

B

Wow. There's a guy on social media, Joe, I'm trying to think of his last name right now, but Bananas is his handle on Instagram and it's like with seven S's at the end. And he was a spirit guy for many, many years. And then he actually just got picked up by United, I think like two years ago. And he flies a Cub. He has an old Piper Cub. And so he always posts a lot of great video of him hand flying. And he's on that all the time, especially being an Airbus guy. And then now he's a 7, 3 guy though united. And just talking about the differences of hand flying, I'm not an airline guy, I just watch people talk about it. But it is interesting that, like I said, it's a cultural thing, right. Of whether or not you want to be that guy who actually still, like you said, practices his craft or not.

A

Absolutely. And when they closed down my base, I could pick the 47, I could pick the 87 or I could pick the triple seven. And the culture back then with the 747 was like, thou shall not turn the autopilot off until pretty far and low. And then the 87 had HUDs and they believed also. And by the way, both those fleets never did domestic hits. But I just remember asking a buddy and he goes, no, Harry, the way that you are, you gotta go triple 7s, because you can get yourself, you know, a Denver, New York, and you can hand fly it all you want and you can go to the Islands and hand fly it. And so they're out of those three heaviest, I would tell you. And I think it's the same for American and Delta. The guys that want to hand fly the triple seven, you know, they. And they, no problems, I mean, from, you know, 18,000ft down.

B

Wow, that's Pretty awesome.

A

Oh, yeah, you see it all the time. Yeah.

B

Well, it's good to know that flying still does happen, you know, up there in the cockpit. So that's good. So before we run out of time here, we have a few more minutes, but I want to talk about your son, too. So former 60 Romeo pilot, right. Does a pep tour and then transitions to tar and then gets picked up VR tar, which is outstanding. And lo and behold, you take him to his first squadron, which is my old squadron. Yeah, that you were the CO of.

A

Well, then there's a picture in the hallways with all the other old COs. Yeah. And so he's getting ribbed a little bit about, you know.

B

Oh, of course.

A

He should be. That's right. So it's neat. As a legacy. I hope it makes him tougher because there's actually some old petty officers that are now senior chiefs that remember me. So. Yeah, I hope he has a thick skin.

B

Yeah, he will. That's what I tell all the student naval aviators who come through or the SNFOs at the museum. I do sit there and talk to them for a little bit and give them three bits of advice. One of them is just be prepared for all your flights. Don't do anything unsafe. And the last one is have some thick skin. Right. Because you got to be able to learn, right. And get feedback. And if you can't take that or. And that's in the cockpit. But if you can't take the stuff where you're getting that at the club afterwards or wherever it is or on deployment, man, then you might not be built for this. Right.

A

And again, the airlines, that's what you miss, is that give and take.

B

Yeah. Okay, that's not really there.

A

I mean, it is, but it. Sometimes you see stories, but the ribbing and the teasing, that is unique, I think, to the military culture.

B

Yeah, I got it. Well, you're not as good as your last landing.

A

Right. This is just an aside, but John Wayne, they're in True Grit. Remember there was a famous quote, like, not bad shooting from one eyed fat man.

B

Yeah.

A

Rooster Cogburn. Yes. And so one day I said that to the captain, you know, who's landing. And you know, of course, silence for like the next two days. And then finally he's like, you know, what was that whole comment? And I'm like, it was True Grit.

B

Wow.

A

I'm telling you, movie quote.

B

Yeah.

A

It's like, I just meant that was a good landing. It didn't mean that you were fat. It was just It's a quote. The military guys, that's all we do. We all do stupid movie quotes.

B

Yeah. All the time.

A

Right. Anyhow.

B

Oh, my gosh. That's great. Yeah. So you brought this book. We gotta see the book. And for those of you who aren't gonna watch the video, you can listen to it. But the book is pretty cool. Yeah. I mean, look at that. I mean. So how did you get that?

A

This is a story how I got it. All right, so real quick, how I got it. I was a JG at the squatter, and I was the nav officer, and the other guy was the charts officer, logs and records officer. And the opso ordered us to go into the office and throw away all the logs, log books. And now, I didn't know we could do that, but okay, you know, so we box it up. At that point, there's only like, 30 years worth of deep freeze. And I just remember walking these out to a dipsy dumpster and throwing in these things.

B

No way. Official Navy records.

A

Absolutely. And so then all of a sudden, I thought to myself, when I got home, I said, that's crazy. So I put on my sweats and I jumped back into that thing after hours. Did you really? Yeah. Well, I know I wasn't so historical where I wanted to get all 30, but I wanted to get the oldest. And so deep freeze one and two were not there, but deep freeze three was. So deep freeze one was when they went and landed on the pole, And Deep Freeze 2 was when they were pretty much building the pole. And Then Deep Freeze 3 was when they were moving from Little America out to McMurdo. But it's just hilarious. And by the way, at some point, I'll go down to your historical archives, and I'm going to try to either do a transcription or let them.

B

So they can scan it, Right? Yeah. And that's what they have actually been doing for quite a few years now, scanning everything to be available online. So that's what they probably do with that.

A

Yeah. So in here, you can just sit there and read stuff, but it just shows. If you don't mind, please.

B

I can't wait. This is awesome. Of course.

A

So back then, there was, like, eight different airplanes. There are R4Ds and Otters and helos and stuff. So here's one. At 23:50, on the 9th of November, 1957, R4D 853 landed, Little America, comma, right. Ski hanging down, comma, three cylinders blown on right engine fire reported on right engine, right gear reported to have collapsed on landing and aircraft pivoted on right wing. No injuries.

B

Miss the premiss that plan, right?

A

Nope, nothing. And then it's just like, okay, and what happened? You know? And then here's another one. Now, this next entry has a guy named Gus Shin. And Gus Shin was the first pilot to land in the South Pole.

B

Oh, my gosh. No kidding. That's in there?

A

Well, no, but Gus Shin stayed. So this is on the 21st of January and 1958. So basically, it goes airborne en route from bird station to pole station to airlift. Dr. Fuchs. He's a famous guy. It's like dogs. And then aircraft developed engine trouble. Pilot reported excessive oil consumption and would attempt landing for repair. So he's going from the polar plateau, and now he's going to just put down because something's gone amiss. So then it goes, okay, 1425, SAR alerted. 1440, received call from that aircraft from Lieutenant Commander Shin, R4D8, that he was on deck at this position with collapsed port main gear strut. No injuries. And then it gets even worse at, you know, broken ski rigger strut. But I wanted to get those things out. But it's chock full of those stories. And oftentimes, like I said, there'll be one where it's just like, aircraft missing for four hours, going to chow, you know, and then all of a sudden, it'll come back, like, receive word that aircraft put down for fog. We'll attempt takeoff in an hour. We'll inspect the barracks, and you're just like, what the hell?

B

Yeah. And then there's a Four hours later, it says, aircraft safe on deck right here.

A

Yes. And that's the way VXE6 was in the 50s back then. Matter of fact, it was VX6.

B

Oh, okay.

A

Yeah. But anyhow, that's the lore there.

B

Wow. And that's the one that you saved?

A

That's the only one I saved. And now I'm kicking myself for not saving like, like, 27 other Sophie choices.

B

Yeah, that's right.

A

You know, just who's gonna live. Well, and then what operations officer tells you to go and, you know, throw those away?

B

Yeah, that's odd.

A

Yeah.

B

Yeah, that's definitely odd. Yeah. Don't destroy any official Navy publications if you can avoid it. Oh, my gosh. Well, I'll tell you, this has been an amazing discussion. I don't know how else to describe it. I'll be honest with you. But all I can say is thank you. So you don't live here in Pensacola even Though you're here right now, your brother does, and you come down to visit, and we just happened to make it to where after you did the cross country and to go back, you actually flew down here because you're doing some work on your house, your summer home, I guess, here at Navy Point.

A

Airbnb.

B

Airbnb. So, yeah, thanks again for coming out here and doing this. We don't get a lot of people. You're the second person who is from out of town who has done an in person podcast, and these are much better. This is better than doing it online. So I guess I can't thank you enough for coming down here. Any other last words?

A

No, I just thanks for, you know, not feeling insulted that my brother ran that thing. Yeah. The flag full with you. And truly, it's because he got me turned on to your podcast. He's the one that. That was watching your podcast all the time, and he's like, hey, you got to watch this guy. He's really good. He's got interesting people, very historic. And so, you know, I started watching it, too, and I've seen most of yours, by the way, and I've started picking up on Kinsel.

B

Oh, yeah, Tim Kinsla, right? Yeah. Lucky. Yeah. Footnotes.

A

History, right? His are good, too.

B

Yeah, for sure. Yeah. He's a history nerd. Loves that stuff.

A

That's right. And so, you know, it was an easy sell. And he kept pumping me like, he goes, you should do that. You should go in. I'm like, I'm just a prop guy.

B

Oh, so he backdoored you, came around with the paper on my desk. Did you even know he did that?

A

Yeah.

B

Oh, he did tell you. He did warn you. I thought maybe he wouldn't have. He'd be a good brother.

A

But, you know, I just hope I haven't lowered the high water mark for your guys, because I'm watching guys that are ejecting and POWs and all these guys you have on. And then it was like, okay, I hope I didn't just bore half your fans with, like, mundane prop stories.

B

Not at all. I mean, I was in that chair, for one, so, I mean, it couldn't have been all that great, right? And Hilo guy over here. Hilo guy over there. So, I mean, there's actually lots of helicopter guys around here and prop guys, too. So we try to, you know, keep our head above the strike fighter. Pointy nose, water.

A

There you go. That's right. Keep them under control.

B

That's right. All right. So thank you for joining us on this flight through history and innovation here at the radio room. I'll tell you, man, innovation, if there's anything innovative, man, that squadron was 100% innovative. That's amazing. We hope today's episode inspired you with new insights and the incredible stories that make naval aviation so extraordinary. Don't forget to visit the National Naviation Museum in Pensacola. Explore our online resources@navalaviationmuseum.org to dive deeper into the stories we've shared and follow us on social media. Give us a like follow. Five star. We only do five star reviews, but go ahead and leave your comments. So thanks again, Chris.

A

Yep.

B

Yeah, Appreciate it.

A

It was fun.

B

Great.