A

You're listening to the OCD Stories Podcast hosted by me, Stuart Ralph. The OCD Stories is a podcast dedicated to raising awareness and understanding around obsessive compulsive symptoms. I do this for interviewing inspired therapists, psychologists and people who have experienced OCD. Welcome to the OCD stories and welcome to episode 542 of the podcast. And in this one I chat with Blakely Hunzy Austin Blakely is a licensed professional counselor in the states of Colorado and Tennessee. She obtained her Master's Degree in Clinical Mental Health Counseling with a concentration in addictions. She's a nationally certified counselor who specializes in sex therapy, eating disorders, trauma and ocd. She enjoys working with lgbtqia, kink and poly ENM communities. And in this episode we talk about OCD and sexual anxiety around sex and intimacy, redefining the meaning of sex, vaginismus, some particular OCD worries around sex, sensate focused sex therapy, disgust around sex, neurodiversity in sex, and much more. And thanks to our podcast partners, nocd. If OCD is interfering with your life, NOCD can help their licensed therapists specialise in exposure and response prevention therapy. The most proven therapy for OCD we with NOCD. Effective treatment that is 100% virtual is available for children and adults with OCD and most members can get started within seven days on average. No hassle, just real science backed help and support between sessions. Begin your journey@nocd.com or I'll put the link in the episode description. So thank you so much to Blakely for her time and expertise. It was fun chatting with her and thank you to you for listening. As always, it means a lot. Without further ado, here is Blakely. Thanks. Welcome to the podcast Blakely.

B

Thank you. I'm a big fan. I'm excited to be here.

A

Thank you. It's good to have you on. So before we kind of get into to today's topic, what's like your background, what got you into being working therapeutically with ocd?

B

I started out being interested in working with folks I noticed I did well with people who were really perfectionistic and over controlled and then I started doing more with eating disorders and psychotherapy and of course when you mix all that together we start to see OCD in the mix. And then when I was about 29 years old I found out I also had O C D so that just made me even more excited to work with it and help folks with O C D. And I love working with neurodivergent people so I kind of Landed in it. But it also felt. It felt like an intentional path. But it was interesting getting there and being like, oh, you also deal with this.

A

Yeah, exactly. So. So you said you were 29 when you found out you had ACD.

B

Oh, yeah. It took a long time.

A

So was it quite prevalent before that or was it just. Did it hit you later on in life?

B

It was. I think it was probably more subtle. And it wasn't the obvious signs, the stereotypes that we think of when we think of ocd. So it was a bit harder to catch. I remember being in session with one of my therapists, and he was like, do you think you might have ocd? And I laughed because I was working with clients who had it. And I was like, absolutely not. And then I was like, oh, wait, yes, maybe. So I did have it as a kid. It was just my parents thought I was very anxious and it wasn't the traditional signs that you would think of. And so, yeah, I stumbled into it.

A

Nice. Nice. And what. So it was eating disorders and sex therapy before that. What. What got you into those two areas?

B

With eating disorders? I also have a history of disordered eating, so that one was just. I was naturally drawn to it and I found that a lot of people didn't really want to work with it, so. And I enjoyed it. And then with sex therapy, I knew when I was in grad school that that was probably something I would get into. I'm from the south, so from Nashville, Tennessee. And so a lot of people were really uncomfortable in KG talking about it and talking to their clients about it. And I remember thinking, well, this doesn't make me feel uncomfortable. So I was really excited about specializing in that and finally got to, especially once I started in my own practice. I know when I've worked for practices in the past, they don't always nurture sex therapy. Cause I think it can feel a little taboo. And so I finally really got to advertise that once I started doing my own thing, which has been really empowering and awesome. And then, of course, all three of those together, ocd, sex therapy, and eating disorders just blend really well.

A

Yeah. Yeah, true. So do you find you get a lot of people sort of seeking you out now for those reasons?

B

Oh, yeah, yeah, all three. Or like, it could be combined or separately, but those are the main things I usually work with. Not that I'm unwilling to work with others, but that's what I see. Come through the door more often.

A

Yeah, okay. Okay, great. So, because I've done a couple, I think A couple episodes now on OCD and intimacy or OCD and sex. But it's, it's, it's always worth covering more because it's such a sex intimacy. All of that is such an important area for, for many humans. And obviously OCD anxiety can massively impact that and affect it. And then obviously that's a key area of life for some people. Massively affected, which is going to affect overall well being. So how do you see OCD affecting sex, sex drive, intimacy, all of that stuff?

B

Oh, that's a good question. I typically see ocd and again, this is because of the populations I work with. I work with a lot of kinky non monogamous folks and LGBTQIA populations. I can see OCD show up in their sexuality. So they'll fixate on am I actually part of the queer community? Am I sure that I'm gay? And it's not the traditional exploration of sexuality. It's that OCD fixation on do I actually know myself? Can I trust myself with kinks? I tend to see that sometimes people can really find a lot of healing through their kink community. So maybe some exposure work. If I have OCD surrounding a certain thing and I engage in a particular kink, it can kind of help push me. I see people in 24, seven dominant submissive relationships actually work through some of the O C D behaviors with the help of their dominant partner, which is really interesting and cool. So I've gotten a really unique perspective on that as well. But of course I see all the tradition, the more traditional things you would see with OCD in relationships, like, does my partner love me? Do I love my partner? Am I sure? What if, what if there's someone better? I don't know. I can't trust myself. So I do see a lot of that too. But those are some of the more maybe nuanced things that I get to see because of the populations I work with.

A

Yeah, that's really interesting. And how do you see OCD slash anxiety get in the way of like. I guess because from what I've read, like, you know, obviously affecting people. I know I've had anxieties, affected my own sex life historically and massively got in the way. And I won't go into detail, but yeah, how have you seen that kind of come up with clients? Like it's sort of blocking or impacting or impeding the ability to either have sex, get into sexual relationships, et cetera?

B

I think that I do see people who have a hard time staying present and in the moment when they're engaging in intimacy or sexual behaviors, or I can see it post intimate behaviors. They have a lot of anxiety and dread, myself included. I remember, especially in college, I would, I would get fixated. I was on birth control, but I was like, oh my gosh, what if you're pregnant? And so I had a compulsive behavior of taking a bunch of pregnancy tests, which is very expensive and a ridiculous, illogical waste of time. Right. I remember thinking, I know that this is irrational. You're very normal on birth control pills. You know, you're taking them on time. Why are you so anxious about this? I never understood until later what that was. But it can create a lot of shame and guilt. And I think again, especially in the south, we have such a skewed view of sex that I see so many of my clients fixing, fixing, fixating and their OCD latches onto am I a bad person for liking the things I like? Am I bad for engaging in sex? Am I bad for having kinks or wanting an open relationship or anything like that? So of course it affects in the moment people being able to be present and engaging with their partner or partners, but especially after. Yeah, the substances that are involved in sex are sometimes icky and difficult for clients with ocd and some of the moral stuff comes in. So I see a lot of that.

A

Yeah, yeah, yeah, interesting. And, and obviously sex will, will greatly depend on someone's like religious cultural backgrounds and beliefs and, and all of that. And so it's very unique to the person. But I guess just speaking very generally as a society, because it's probably very similar uk, US and maybe most of the other countries listening to this. Where am I going with this question? I guess, do we need to like, redefine what it means, like sexual intimacy? Because I think sometimes the very stereotypical view is like penetrative sex, I.e. sex or whatever the equivalent is in same sex marriages, couples and et cetera. But obviously it's more than that. So I think sometimes for anxious people, I imagine viewing it as just this simple of the traditional view of that version of sex can be quite intimidating versus actually it's this whole spectrum of exploration and connection.

B

Absolutely. And I think a lot of clinicians right now are trying to do that work of redefining what sex is completely. I think like you said, in the UK and US and probably other countries, we view it as penetrative between a CIS man and a CIS woman. And redefining that sex includes many things because people could think that they Are quote, unquote virgin. Right. They could think that they've been virgins and they actually might be a CIS woman who had sex with another CIS woman years ago and they, it doesn't count. Or I have people fixated on where I have pain when I have sex, and so I can't have real sex. And it's like, but you're still doing oral, you're still doing. You're still making out with your shirts off. You know, where. What are we defining as sex? I think that answer needs to be more fluid and people get fixated on doing it the correct way, especially with anxiety and ocd. They're like, am I doing it fully in the right way when that might not feel good to them or organic. Some people never have penetrative sex and they enjoy their sex lives immensely.

A

So that's it. Yeah, that's it. Because I think someone with OCD or anxiety could, could just get very fixated on that of I'm doing it wrong. Or if you think in the case like vaginismus, where it's harder to have penetrative sex, am I a failure or am I broken in some way rather than. No, you can have this great sex life, but it's going to look different than the stereotype. Stereotype.

B

And it keeps them from getting help they need, you know, seeing a pelvic floor therapist or going to sex therapy at all. There's so much shame around something being broken when really we just need to redefine what that looks like. And if you prefer a certain method of engaging sexually, then that counts.

A

Yeah, that's it. That's it. Yeah. And because I, because I brought it up there, vaginismus. Is that something? Because I'm by no means an expert in it. Is that, uh, something you see more in, like, anxious populations, do you think?

B

That's a really good question. I would say yes. I would say I see a lot of folks. And again, that could just be because I specialize in it. So not sure, you know, correlation doesn't mean causation. But I do see a lot of folks. I think the anxiety definitely makes it worse. So if they're fixated on it, of course it's going to be more painful. But, um, some of it could be due to trauma, whether that just be like physical trauma from athleticism or sexual assault, things like that. But the anxiety definitely doesn't help because the more tension, the more irritated, the more clenched I am, the more painful sex is going to be and, and

A

physical trauma there around you said athleticism. Is that what. Where they've just been overworking certain muscles and the body's like, clamping out?

B

It could be. I. Pelvic floor dysfunction can. Then again, I know by no means an expert. I have a good friend who's a pelvic floor therapist, so I will not step on her toes in that. But even runners, right, or weightlifters, we see, you know, they. She quoted that women tend to go seven years with symptoms before they seek pelvic floor treatment. So it'll be seven years of a. Again, I'm saying women. CIS women peeing themselves while they're running and they'll just wear diapers or something to mitigate the problem. But yeah, if there's certain muscles that are overworking and some that are under, then you might end up with tension tightness, underworking muscles that are causing pain. And of course, the trauma of childbirth does impact it. So. Yeah, but there's lots of women who come in that are like, I've never had a kid. I don't understand why this is happening. It's like, well, are you an athlete? Because that could be happening.

A

Yeah. Wow. Interested. And I guess so speaking especially from your unique population and unique in the sense that, you know, you are seeing a. Yeah. A slice of the population that you've tailored for your marketing, I guess. And now you're. These people are drawn to you with. Oh, man. What was my question? Yeah, just typical client pop. Client experiences with the clients you see like. Or patients you see like. Well, the. Some of the common problems they're coming to you with who have ocd. But they come and they're also bringing up these sexual challenges.

B

And some of them have the fixation to. Of, you know, like the. The most in. Intensely bothersome I've seen are people who fixate on, am I attracted to children? Am I doing things that are inappropriate with kids? So they have a lot of anxiety around that. I have a lot of people whose OCD fixates on their bot. Because of the eating disorder population I work with, a lot of it's fixating on their body. So while they're having sex, all they're thinking about is, is my partner having a good time? Are they looking at me strange? Do I look okay? Do my thighs look a certain way? Like, how does my body look in this position? I think that I see a lot of that ruminative body fixation piece and a lot of people who have disgust surrounding genital fluids, things that are sticky, disgust around genitals in General. That's what I see a lot of.

A

Yeah. Okay. And with the example about worrying about my body, how do I look while I'm having sex, or this? So that you're of course, not enjoying sex because you're not present with it. You know, you're not actually in the moment with.

B

With.

A

With that sort of example, how are you working with that? How are you sort of bringing them closer to presentness? Maybe. I don't know. What?

B

Yeah, yeah. There's a lot of different, really great techniques. Sensate focused sex therapy is wonderful because it's a pretty common one that folks can use. I tend to try to help clients with grounding and mindfulness. So how can we help you be more aware and present and maybe. And that's behaviorally some of the skills we can utilize when they're engaged sexually. And then on the back end, I'm looking at, why do I have this fixation to begin with? So I like helping clients not only behaviorally adjust what's going on, but emotionally adjust. Maybe beliefs that they've inherited that don't feel congruent with them or process some trauma that's happened in the past that's led them to have these beliefs. So I kind of tell clients I like one foot in the past and one foot in the present, so that we're tackling both and not just band aiding the problem. I want them to process trauma and engage in great pleasure. So I teach them grounding skills and then kind of explore why do you think you need to look a certain way in order to accept your body, and why is that so difficult?

A

Yeah, yeah, good. Good point. Yeah. I like that idea of one foot in the present, one foot in the past. That's what you said, right? One foot in the present.

B

Yeah.

A

And then the other example you gave there, disgust. So I've definitely heard this as well around bodily fluids and all of this, and it's gross. And obviously there's other people in the population that really don't care. And in fact, like that, all of that for the people that experience disgust around bodily fluids, and obviously that can then be a block to certain sexual acts, because if you get closer to the fluids, how are you getting helping them with that discussed or kind of push on maybe in the face of

B

it, some of it is exposure work, and then some of it, again, is gently kind of assessing, is there a trauma reason for this disgust, or are they just disgusted in general? I kind of explore. Are you disgusted by other sticky substances or residues? Is it specifically Sex related or is there other stuff that feels overwhelming or overstimulating to you in daily life that we can also help them do Exposures around? And if it's sex related, why are we attaching that? Right. Because there's other stuff. Oranges are sticky. Right. There's other things that feel similar to some of the sexual fluids. So I'm like, why is it that it's tied to this in the first place? And that is kind of an interesting thing to kind of touch on and explore. Because that can also help us do more exposures around it or explore. Why is there shame? Because like you said, most people, our disgust senses decrease when we're aroused because if they didn't, a lot of us would probably not be having sex because it's gross.

A

Yeah, true, true. Does that actually happen in the human brain? That as we get arousal, the disgust drops?

B

Generally, yes, our sense of disgust can drop. Right. That also might be why we're more open when we're aroused to doing things we would normally not do. You know, like if I, for an extreme example, if I wanted to spit on my partner, I probably wouldn't think about doing that when I'm not aroused. But when I'm aroused, that might sound really hot.

A

Yeah.

B

You know?

A

Yeah, yeah. It's offensive if you're not aroused.

B

Yeah, the context matters.

A

Exactly, exactly. Okay, so you mentioned like neurodiversity earlier. So do, do you see any change there in, in issues or sensitivity around things around sex? Obviously, generally speaking, because everyone's unique, but absolutely.

B

And I think the communication piece is huge. Right. Neurodivergent folks communicate differently. So they're. And if we have people who are neurodivergent that are trying to mask or overcompensate, then during sex they might be like trying to read in to their partner's facial expressions and not understand what some of it means, or not be able to read if they're having a good time or might need more clear cues. So. And I do see them getting more overwhelmed with, you know, like certain sounds. You know, I have a lot of people who fixate on smell, which to be fair, so do I. But when they're having sex, they're like, if it smells weird in the room, I don't want to have sex. Or if I feel like I haven't been clean and showered, I feel really disgusted. Or if I can hear my neighbor, that puts me off. So there's more sensitivity in general to the five senses, but also confusion around some of the non verbal Communication that can go into sex. Which is why I'm like, we should be talking about it more, like, verbally.

A

Yeah, yeah. And do you mean there? Like, as a society, we should be talking about it more or just more in with partners?

B

Both, I think.

A

Both.

B

Yeah. I try to tell people we should normalize talking about sex. Just like we talk about breakfast, sandwiches. You know what I mean? Like, sit at breakfast and talk about sex. Talk about how that went for you, talk about what you like and don't like, or if we tried something new, how do we feel about it? I think a lot of partners just. We think sex should happen like it does in the movies, where you're just, like, ready to go and it's really hot and there's no what feels comfortable for you? What do you like? Are there things you don't really enjoy? Are there things you're interested in trying? There's none of that. They just automatically. It's super hot and they know what's happening. You know what I mean? So normalizing the dialogue.

A

Yeah, yeah. How? This is a big question. How can we do that as a society? How can we start those conversations?

B

Oh, I. There's small ways. I heard this once, and I really liked it. So I've actually been trying to do this. When you're on the phone or talking to friends in public, if you're talking about things that are sexual, even if it's, hey, can you pick up my birth control prescription? Or can you get me some period products Update. People will whisper. Right? Even I will do that. If I'm on the phone talking to someone about sex. I will drop my voice when I'm at the grocery store and kind of look around like it's something to be ashamed of. So trying to just normalize, not dodging that stuff or not acting uncomfortable when people bring it up, or for me, I'm more honest. When people ask what I do, I tell them I'm a sex therapist. Instead of just being like, oh, I work in mental health. Because we should be normalizing having these conversations, and maybe it's being more brave with our partners and stepping into those spaces more often and communicating about what worked and what didn't, and being vulnerable, because I think it's really vulnerable. So I think it's the small things that will add up to a bigger cultural change.

A

Oh, yeah, I like that. I like that. Yeah, I agree. It can obviously be hard speaking with your partner about it sometimes, because there's innate shame sometimes in sexuality. And obviously, if it's not Received well as that fear of rejection. Um, yeah. So. And I, you know, sex is one of these things, like you say on the phone there, where you quite quiet in your voice. It's like most people on the planet have done it. Everyone in existence nearly has done it because there's always a, you know, certain circumstances, but. But it's the one thing no one talks about. You know, we almost all have it in common, but we don't talk about it.

B

Yeah. Except for ways that are reproductively intelligent. Right. Like, we think about how many people ask, like, when are you all having kids? Which is basically asking about your sex life. Right.

A

Yeah, that's true. Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we never ask how are you going to make the kid? What position? Maybe I'll start that just to weird people out. Okay. No, yeah, that's interesting. So you mentioned sensei focus. Right. Is that. Yeah.

B

Yes.

A

Just for anyone listening, because obviously that. I believe that. Correct me if I'm wrong. I believe that's used when couples have kind of stopped having sex or intimacy and it's a way of bringing them slowly and gradually or systematically back together. Is that fair to say?

B

Yeah, generally it could be they're still having sex, but yeah, maybe there's anxiety or on either end, or erectile issues, ejaculation issues on people with a penis role in that. Or it could be pain during sex that's keeping people from doing that. Or emotionally. If there's been an affair and they're trying to work on it and work through it, it can really just help couples with remaining in the present moment and paying attention to body sensations rather than what in sensate focus they call spectatoring, which is like watching myself having sex and commenting on it and judging myself or judging my partner. It really just helps people remain present during sexual acts and helps with. Yeah. Premature ejaculation, anxiety, depression, vulvodynia, vaginismus, things like that.

A

Interesting. Have you seen. So that's the therapy you use?

B

It's one of the modalities that I pull from.

A

Okay. And you've seen it be useful?

B

Yes. I would say I take a more eclectic approach there. Some people use sensate focus and like it is a structured program. It's not the same as the mdr, but it kind of reminds me of that where it's like very laid out for the therapist and you give these certain regimens and they go home with homework and then they come back and we talk about it. And I think it's brilliant. But I tend to take a more eclectic approach with things. But yes, like, I use the tools in there, and I do see that that's very helpful for clients.

A

Yeah. Okay. Awesome, awesome. Do you do couples work? Do you ever work with or proflets or, you know, whatever the relational dynamic is? Do. Yeah. Do you work with a unit?

B

Yes, I work with units. Couples, partners, throuples, poly. Yeah, I work with all that.

A

Okay, good, good. And is that. I guess, obviously from an OCD point of view, you might be working on accommodations and that, but from like, the sex side of things, is it. Yeah, you're. You're like, maybe drawing on sensei or other stuff. Like you're actually working with them to figure it out, what's the block? And

B

yes. And I look at relational dynamics that are impacting the sex life, too. I really like Esther Perel. She says, tell me how you were loved as a child. I'll tell you how you make love as an adult. Right. So I focus on, what is it in our dynamic? I use a lot of internal family systems therapy, especially with couples. So I'm like, what parts of ours are reacting to one another? How can we work on communicating more clearly and remaining regulated while we're talking about the hard things? Because I think couples tend, or units tend to fixate on the logical solution and try to just knuckle down and get through the fight versus what's going on emotionally underneath. How can we stay regulated and get through the meat of it? That's what's more helpful than, let's just resolve the problem. Because the communication's the problem, not the problem itself, usually.

A

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And obviously, if. If we're not communicating effectively, that's going to affect some people's sex drive because they don't feel safe or connected or whatever else.

B

Yes. Or they're confusing sex with intimacy. So, like, we're having plenty of sex while you're talking about things that's. Sometimes that's easier to have sex than it is to talk about grief and trauma and shame.

A

Yeah, good point. Good point. Yeah, good point. So checking in my questions. Yeah. How it. So what am I missing around just the topic of sex and ocd? What? What, What? Have I not asked you any?

B

I think, I know this sounds like, silly, but I'm like, the. The fact that you can find joy. I think a lot of clients, and you've probably seen this too, specializing in ocd, they can get so hopeless about feeling good again. Like, what am I ever going to feel happy and present and better. And that's even outside of sex therapy. Our OCD clients are terrified that they're never going to be present again, they're never going to be embodied. They can't trust themselves, they can't trust their bodies, they can't trust their minds. So I think it's encouraging to help people feel like they don't have to live like that all the time. Like they can actually have. I think we think of relief, not joy, when we're working with it.

A

That's a good point. Yeah. Yeah. When am I going to get relief from the ocd, from poor sex life, whatever it is. But actually, yeah, maybe I can have joy in life, in sex, in whatever else. Yeah.

B

I wouldn't say that was maybe a question, more of a point. Because I think when we talk about OCD a lot, it's just like, how do we resolve their symptoms? Which, yes, that's great. But I don't want people to just be symptom free. I want them to be able to have fun again.

A

Yeah, that's a good way. Yeah. I always view it as I want my clients to live life on their terms, you know, But I, Yeah, I like the addition of. I want them to have fun. Yeah. I want them to have joy and excitement and. Yeah. More specific on those things.

B

Yeah. And I think a lot of the ocd, especially with sex that I see, is the information even. Right. That they're looking at, because I think it's under half of the states in the US don't require sex education and the ones that do don't always require it to be accurate. So when our clients have OCD and they fixate on facts and information and what's right, are they even focused on the, the right thing? I don't know.

A

Oh, yeah. And from, from, I mean, I pretty. I got kicked out of sex ed when I was a kid because I was laughing. But my point is, all I remember from it, it's like how not to get an STD and how not to get someone pregnant. Now it's obviously changed hopefully since I was a kid, but I imagine not equally. And are we having conversations of how do we have good sex? How do we have safe sex in a kind of emotional way? Not just in a STD kind of way. Yeah.

B

Making it enjoyable and not just preventative and fear mongering.

A

Yeah. Not shameful. Yeah, yeah,

B

yeah.

A

Even if, even if someone wants to stick on there, you've got to be married, etc. Etc. Okay, but like how do you have Good sex when you're married. Like, you still have that conversation, you know?

B

Yeah. Even if you're religious and. Or, yeah. You have a moral code where you want to wait to have sex until you're married. Can you at least feel comfortable talking with your spouse about it when that's happening?

A

Yeah. Yeah. Especially before marriage. How. How. When we can have sex, how do we want it? You know, is there something you like that I like or, you know. Yeah.

B

Do I know my body? I think a big thing is especially for, you know, VA owners or trans folks. And, like, it's. There's not a lot of education around your body and the body parts. I see a lot of CIS women who avoid looking down there at all or touching it because. And they don't know or think it's, you know, the amount of people that I have to tell, like, it's not broken. Your vagina is not broken.

A

You.

B

You know what I mean? Like, the. The. You know, I. The normal. A question I guess I get asked regularly is, why can't orgasm from penetrative sex alone, which 70% of people with vulvas can't. Right. But the amount of reassurance that I get to give people for my job is awesome because I get to help people be like, it's not broken. You're actually. Okay. This is a very normal problem. This is a very normal experience for people is crazy and astounding. And I'm so sad because I'm like, if we just got better sex education, this would probably not be happening.

A

Well, yeah. And I imagine it's the same issue with OCD in the media. Right. OCD has been portrayed as something it's not for decades, and so is sex. Especially, say people evolv is like, it's this. Every. Every. You know, there's always an orgasm from penetrative sex in movies and. And tv. And it's just. Yeah. As you say, not that common.

B

Yeah. CD doesn't look like Monica Geller all the time from Friends. Right.

A

Yeah. Yeah. Called Monk. Yeah. So. Okay, interesting. So anything else? Anything I need to. We need to discuss on this topic?

B

Yeah, I think we covered a lot of very general OCD and sex pieces.

A

Yeah. Yeah. It's obviously a massive area and very unique to each person. Couple, frouple, quadruple, whatever's going on. Yeah, so it's. But yeah, I think it's. Hopefully we've touched on some points that people might be having difficulty with, and hopefully it's, you know, given them some hope and indicators of Maybe where to look. So you've got a billboard in Colorado. What do you want written on that billboard?

B

Oh man, I think I would probably put something that I have on my website, which is everyone has the right to pleasure. Everyone deserves to have pleasure.

A

Like that. Nice, nice. I'd probably work in Colorado. That billboard.

B

Yeah, probably. They'd be like, what is she selling?

A

And I love Colorado, by the way. For anyone listening, that's not a dig at Colorado. So you could pick up the phone and call the 20 year old you. What do you tell her?

B

The first thing that came to mind was maybe we should go to therapy and see what's going on in there, right? And it's going to be okay and you're going to have a very happy life. But maybe we address some of this, you know what I mean? I remembered thinking, because I didn't specialize in therapy at that point I was doing a different career. It's okay to talk about these things and maybe you should and you'll still be happy. Because I remembered having this fear life wouldn't work out the way I wanted. And I was terrified that I would be unhappy forever or not achieve my goals. And I was so driven to like achieve the force, happiness, which does not work.

A

Yeah, yeah, that's a nice, a nice phone call.

B

Would she have listened to you don't even know. That's what that was. My second thought was, would I have even listened? I would have been like, no, I think once I make the achievement, I'll be happy. Right? That was the narrative. And it can still slip in sometimes, but once I get to this thing, I will be happy. But, and, and, and I've tried to look at it from a different perspective now as a 30 year old, I try to look at it from, I'm allowed to have desires and I'm allowed to want more. Because I think we see people who have desires and meet goals as insatiable. And I'm like, I'm allowed to do that. But my rule for myself is only if you celebrate the fact that you got the thing that you were desiring, right? If you got the master's degree or you get to go on this trip, are you wholly celebrating these successes if you ran that half marathon in a time you wanted? Because the difference between when I was younger and now is when I was younger I thought that was just the expectation. And now I'm trying to say that's really cool that you worked so hard to get here and it was the work that you put in that mattered, not the end result as much. So trying to reframe it.

A

Yeah, yeah, it's about the journey, not the end result. Yeah, no, I like that. So, lastly, anything else you wish you could have said or shared today?

B

Goodness. I think that our message of there is hope really feels quite nice, especially for bringing it back to the OCD piece. Our OCD folks who are listening there is that hope. And I think a lot of people, especially because of listen to your podcast. All of the things that we cover and all of the things we see with ocd, it can often go undetected and people can feel very unseen. I remember being a kid thinking, this stuff that you're doing is really weird and you have to hide it. And I wish that I'd known that there was a reason I was doing it. And I wish I'd felt more seen. And I think that, you know, letting ourselves be seen doesn't have to be a bad thing or shameful. And that also opens the door to pleasure. But for so long, I deny myself of that because I was terrified of being wholly known, because I was like. Even as a kid, I was like, why are you doing it? Strange. This is odd.

A

Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, one of the biggest exposures we could ever do is to be seen by another, like, wholeheartedly. That's terrifying.

B

Being authentic.

A

Yeah, yeah. But it's where the pleasure is, as you say, whether that's sex or just pleasure in life. Yeah, yeah.

B

You're not gonna have deep relationships without authenticity and being seen, but sometimes that's really scary.

A

Yeah, exactly that. Awesome. Ale, thank you so much. It's been great chatting with you.

B

Thank you for having me on.

A

Thank you for listening to this week's podcast and thank you to our patrons who helped make this episode possible. And if you would like to find out more about Patreon and the rewards and benefits, then there will be a link in the episode description. If you enjoy the OCD Stories podcast and would like to support us, please subscribe and rate show wherever you listen to the podcast. And thank you to NOCD for supporting our work. If you want to find out more about nocd, you can click the link in the episode description and quick disclaimer. Guys, this podcast is not therapy. It is not a replacement for therapy. Please seek treatment from a trained professional. And until we speak. Take care, Sam.