Story: Brad Stulberg (Self-harm-themed OCD, writing, and his book The Way of Excellence) (#541)

A

You're listening to the OCD Stories podcast hosted by me, Stuart Ralph. The OCD Stories is a podcast dedicated to raising awareness and understanding around obsessive compulsive symptoms. I do this for interviewing inspired therapists, psychologists and people who have experienced OCD. Welcome to the OCD stories and welcome to episode 541 of the podcast. And in this one I chat with Brad Stolberg who has kindly agreed to share his OCD story with us. Brad is a New York Times and USA Today best selling author who writes about mastery, meaning and excellence. And in this episode we discuss his OCD story, the beginnings of his OCD health obsessions, self harm themed OCD finding a therapist for his OCD Exposure and response prevention therapy, Acceptance and commitment therapy, writing about his ocd, OCD support groups, values, mindfulness, his new book the Way of Excellence and much more. And thanks to our podcast partners. Nocd. If OCD is interfering with your life, NOCD can help. They're licensed therapists, specialise in exposure and response prevention therapy. The most proven therapy For OCD with NOCD, effective treatment that is 100% virtual is available for children and adults with OCD and most members can get started within seven days on average. No hassle, just real science backed help and support between sessions. Begin your journey@nocd.com where I'll put the link in the episode description. So thank you so much to Brad for his time, his insight and his story. I really appreciate it. It was a pleasure chatting with him and of course thank you to you guys for listening. As always, it means a lot. Without further ado, here is Brad. Welcome to the podcast, Brad.

B

It's a pleasure to be here. Stuart, thanks so much for inviting me on.

A

Yeah, it's a pleasure to have you on and I've been familiar with your work for a while, so it's great to get you on finally. But you know, before we talk about some of your work and your writing, it'd be good to hear your OCD story. You can do that now. As little as much detail as you want to give.

B

My OCD story began nearly a decade ago. I was 30 years old. I just published my first book which was ironically called Peak Performance and we'll get into why that's an irony in a bit. And I was doing publicity for the book in New York City at the time. I lived in the Bay Area of California, so it's across the country and I had a pretty jam packed media day of interviews and TV appearances and all sorts of things like that, and I didn't eat enough during the day. I remember that morning, I'd done a pretty long run in Central park, and I was just rushing from one thing to the next and kind of having a bag of pretzels here or a banana there, whatever, they're at the studio. But not a proper meal. And I was to meet a friend and a colleague for dinner that evening. At least I thought it was gonna be dinner. But it turns out it was just a bar. So I had a drink and not really eating much food. And probably in hindsight, although, who knows, as a result of low blood sugar, I had all sorts of physical sensations, right? So I felt a little bit lightheaded, a little bit dizzy, some heart palpitations, and that spiraled into a full fledged panic attack. I never had a panic attack before in my life. So this was completely new to me. And I was still, like, cogent enough to say, hey, like, I need to eat. So I told my colleague Adam, I'm like, I really need to get some food in me. So I left and I. I remember stopping at, you know, in New York City, bodega, one of these dollar stores, and I got, like, two Snickers bars and two bananas. I'm just thinking, like, I just need sugar. And the panic attack just kept spiraling. And then I started to freak out. Am I going to die? What's happening? All the things that happen when you have a first panic attack. The next day I woke up, and I was still just feeling utterly terrible. So I went to an urgent care facility in New York City, and they did an EKG of my heart. They took my blood sugar, which they told me had returned to normal. They said, it sounds like your blood sugar was low. You're gonna be fine. So I flew back that evening as I was scheduled to home in the next morning. Just same thing, heart palpitations, the whole deal. And that really began the start of what I would call, like, a health obsession. I thought that I at first had convinced myself that I had an arrhythmia in my heart and I was gonna have a heart attack. Then I convinced myself I had a weird adrenal disorder, so on and so forth, and got cleared for all of these things. Two trips to the emergency department, where, again, like, I was sure that I was gonna have a stroke or a heart attack. And they told me, like, no, you're just panicking. And eventually I got diagnosed with having panic attacks. And they said, hey, like, maybe you should see a therapist. And I was very open to the idea of seeing a therapist. So I went and I saw a therapist and it was helpful and I think at the time it was just kind of reassurance that your, your health is fine, don't worry, don't stop doing things that you'd otherwise do. So keep going on runs, keep going to the gyms. I was starting to fall into all these avoidance patterns because I was scared it was going to, you know, trigger a heart attack. And it actually got quite a bit better. I think like that initial bout of reassurance, there was enough of me that could believe that, all right, like this is just, this is panic. I'm not actually at risk and this will go away if I just listen to the therapist and keep doing things. That was in late June. Fast forward to October. I've been seeing the therapist maybe once every two or three weeks, feeling much better. And I'm on this long car ride across California to go meet a bunch of friends for like a trail running weekend. And I was maybe an hour into a five hour drive and I just had this thought like you could just drive off the road and end it all right now. And it was accompanied by just like the utmost urgent that you're actually going to do this. And that just jolted my entire being. 10 out of 10, anxiety from my toe to the tip of my brain, pit in my stomach, nauseous. Immediately try to repress that thought. I would never do that. Why are you having that thought? It comes back stronger. I have an entire five hour drive to California to meet, mind you, a bunch of friends that have no idea any of this is going on for a running trip where I am just bombarded by this thought and this urge. I'm on the running trip. It's a three day weekend and throughout the entire trip I start having more intrusive thoughts. At the time I didn't have the vocabulary for intrusive thoughts. I thought I was going crazy. I'd see a knife and I had an urge to pick it up and stab myself. All surrounding self harm and I just do everything I can because it's the tools that I had at the time to be like, this isn't normal, something's wrong, like you're here with your friends, try to be as present as you can. But it was just a weekend from hell. It was, it was so painful, so shitty. And then I'm terrified for the drive home because I'm about to be in the car alone for five hours and I remember I'm queuing up all these Podcasts that I'm going to listen to to try to distract myself. And of course none of that works. And on the drive home, the intrusive thoughts are even more intense than they are on the drive there. The urges are. It was so stark for me. I think in hindsight, I look back at my childhood and I had all these maybe tendencies that would Predispose1 to OCD, but I never had anything like this happen. So it was so stark that. And let me step back. Like I, I played this game for two hours on the six hour drive home where I'm like, I should pull over and check into a hospital because I think I'm gonna kill myself. And I don't know why I didn't. I don't know if it was shame or if I did that. It like made it real. And it was like a decision that would have no turning back from. But I didn't pull over, I didn't go to a hospital. I obviously didn't drive off the road. Cause I'm here talking to you. But it was such a stark onset that I got home and I told my wife who was pregnant with her first kid at the time. So like, for fuck's sake, imagine her situation. I said, you know, my brain is broken, like from night and day. Like something is just broken in my brain and I need help immediately in the US for as hard as it is to get access to a psychiatrist, if you say that you're acutely suicidal, you get very good access to a psychiatrist. So I went through my health insurance and my health system. This was a Sunday night. I got back, I called them Monday morning and I said, like, I need to see someone asap. Um, a day later I was in a psychiatrist office and going through my symptoms in the past three months that led up to this. And just by like the grace of God and good luck, he happened to be someone who like, did his, you know, clinical rotations and specialized in ocd. And I'll never forget the, the moment he said, like, I don't think you're suicidal. I don't even think you're depressed. I think you have ocd. And it was the first time anyone had said those words to me. And like so many other people, I looked at him and I said, doctor, I'll call him vd. Not to violate his privacy. I said, doctor, vd. Like, I'm not particularly organized. I don't wash my hands all the time. Are you sure I have ocd? I'm like, I really think you should Check me into. I wanted him to check me into an inpatient facility because I thought I was gonna kill myself. And to his credit, from that moment, he's like, no, I actually think if we did that, that would make all this worse. Like, you have ocd. You need to trust me. You have ocd. And that was when I first got my diagnosis. Of course I believed him. And I felt really relieved and reassured for, like, six hours. And then later that night, I was convinced I was going to kill myself again. I tried a few SSRIs before finding one that seemed to make a difference and that I tolerated well. Um, and I also got hooked up with just an incredible therapist. Her name is Brooke, that really saved my life, who also subspecialized in. In ocd. Um, I was quite sick for nine months. And by quite sick, I mean, like, pretty debilitated. I guess I'm smart enough to kind of fake it at my job, but it was like going through life with a hand in front of my face. I had very little appetite to do anything. I'm sure I had secondary depression to the ocd. I mean, if your OCD is that bad, of course you're going to feel depressed. Um, and. And I got on this long, rocky road toward recovery thanks to the. My therapist, Brooke, the SSRI that I took, which ended up being Zoloft. Um, and my recovery really came to a head. I think maybe four or five months in. I was making, like, all of these baby steps in recovery, but I still, like, didn't have my life. I couldn't get through an hour without a thought or an urge of self harm. Like, I'd wake up in the middle of the night and all this thought monitoring. My first thought would be like, do I still want to kill myself? It was just ever present. And Brooke, my therapist, I think, could sense that I was actually starting to get pretty depressed as a result of this. And we'd been doing exposure response prevention therapy very much in a way of, why don't you read an article about someone who died by suicide? Just like, kind of getting me closer and closer to the thing that terrified me. And eventually I said, this isn't working. I'm not getting better. And she's like, all right, then you're really going to have to trust me. And obviously, I'm not a clinician, and this is something that you should only do in consultation with a skilled therapist and psychiatrist and a whole mental health team. But she essentially told me what I want you to do for the next week. And at this point I'm seeing her weekly is I want you to go home and set a timer for 90 minutes and I want you to take a knife and hold it to your neck alone. I don't want your wife in the room, you have to do this. And I think I was just like so at my wit's end with all of this. I remember thinking like, well you know, if I do it it's her fault, not mine. And like anything beats this shit. So like let's go. So the next day I get on my couch, I grabbed the huge sharp knife and I have such an urge to push it into my neck. Like the strongest urge I've ever felt. 10 out of 10 panic. I actually think I'm going to do it. I tinker around with applying a little bit more pressure, like just such a strong urge. I obviously don't do it. I'm here talking to you that night. I don't sleep at all, I'm up all night. Oh my God, I'm going to do it. I had that urge, I'm absolutely going to do it tomorrow. Then of course your, your over analytical OCD brain, or at least mine says well now you haven't slept and I know all the signs of suicide cuz I've googled them a million times. So now I'm surely going to do it tomorrow. Tomorrow comes around, same thing, 10 out of 10 panic. By day five I fell asleep on the couch from boredom because she made me set the timer for 90 minutes. And it wasn't like it was all Rosies, you know, roses and everything was great from there but that was really the turning point. And I just thank God that I had such a skilled therapist and in consultation with psychiatrists that like from their pattern recognition were pretty able to see that whatever depression I had wasn't the issue. The issue was the OCD and they really had to get to the bottom of it. That was a harrowing week. At least the start of it was. But truly Stuart, by the end of that week I fell asleep and I remember waking up and looking at this knife next to me and being like, what the fuck are we even doing here? And that was probably eight or nine months into all of this. I've had some like recurrent flare ups around other issues where like it's been bad for you know, a week or two at a time. Um, but yeah, that was, that was huge. And then just to be really comprehensive in, in this story cause I don't get the chance to retell it so Much. Uh, what happened then is, I think, like, I, I didn't feel like my life was in danger every day, which just made it easier to get through the day. Uh, however, I got really obsessed with doing ERP so like, anytime I had any kind of intrusive thought about self harm, I'm like, oh, I better go find a knife and like, sit on a couch somewhere. But obviously you can't be out to dinner with like, your friends and have an intrusive thought and be like, all right, I gotta go in the bathroom and like, not kill myself. So maybe a year into my recovery, the focus of the therapy shifted from ERP to acceptance and commitment, where kind of the actual exposure became not doing the exposure therapy. Like just being able to have really intense intrusive thoughts and urges and not need to do the exposure therapy to prove to myself they weren't real. Just sit with them and refocus on what's in front of you. Commit to living your values, and that was the path out of it. And I think that a really terrible one year of my life that I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy. A pretty rocky second to second year and a half now. I'm 40, I've got two kids, I write books professionally. OCD is a very small part of my life. It's still a part of my identity in kind of like my wiring and my temperament. But in terms of actually disrupting my function and my ability to flourish, it's a very small part of my life. And I share that because I was someone that was sure I needed to be impatient. It was going to ruin my marriage, it was going to ruin my life. And here I am, thanks to again, the right medical and therapeutic courses of action.

A

Yeah, thank you for sharing that. That's really detailed. And obviously I'm glad the therapy worked. I may have missed it. How long had you been doing weekly therapy before Brooke, before your therapist? Brooke kind of recommended. Let's go, let's step it up a level.

B

Probably five months. So, I mean, I, I, she's great. And I'm sure, like, she had to be so confident.

A

Yeah.

B

In order to make that recommendation. And who knows, she might have spoken with the psychiatrist as well just to make sure, but she does OCD like, this is her bread and butter. So actually, you know, a year and a half later, I'm like, Brooke, like, you're, you're crazy. And she's like, like, I, like you're such a, like you think you're special, but you're such A bread and butter case of ocd.

A

Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like you say, she would have risk assessed and assessed you and known you for long enough that she could make that call with you. But what's so obviously like ramping up the ERP to that level obviously allowed you just to crack through a ceiling, you know, effectively four days. At that point, you'd done 90 minutes or six hours of being at probably 10 out of 10, 9 out of 10. Anxiety. You're right at your limit. Uh, and that allowed your brain to actually learn that, oh, I'm not going to do this. Which is, is a powerful statement. Um, but what's interesting is you went along with it. Right? So what, what allowed you to push through that? Because a lot of clients sometimes or patients don't want to do that because it's terrifying. As you found out.

B

I was just exhausted, Stuart. Like, I had this, like, what I thought was a pretty blessed life. I married then. My son had been born. So I have like a two month old son. OCD essentially ruined the experience of his delivery from. For me, I tried to hide it from my wife, but like the entire time she's in labor, I just am like, well, like, I'm going to kill myself, so he's not going to have a dad. I mean, I think I was just tired, I was exhausted and I'm like, if this is what she says could help end this, I'm willing to do anything.

A

Yeah.

B

Because my life had gotten so small and just so hard to live that it was like total surrender. I was, I. That, that is it. I think I was just totally surrendering to her in the process.

A

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And did you feel at that point you just truly trusted her as well?

B

I must have, because the fact that I had 10 out of 10 panic means I obviously, like, it was intrusive thoughts, but there was no actual suicidal intent. So I must have trusted her to be able to do that. She's just incredible. I owe my quality of life to her. I can't be more thankful and grateful. So, yeah, I guess I try to think back because it's a long time now. But yes, I think that I absolutely trusted her.

A

Yeah.

B

But you know, like, that was like the main obsession. But again, surrounding it was, well, I've got this kid, so if I walk down the stairs, maybe I'll just decide to throw him down the stairs. I could smother him with a pillow. I could stick his hand into the garbage disposal. Like there were all of these. I don't want to call them minor, because they're pretty significant. But there were all of these other little obsessions swirling around this big one, and. And my everyday was just like playing whack a mole with the most. And as people with OCD know, like, it's not just a thought. It's like the feeling in every cell of your body that you're actually gonna do this. And it just got so exhausting where I think I went in, and I'm like, brooke, like, I. Whatever we're doing's not working fast enough. Like, what can we do next? And that's when it really had that breakthrough week. And I don't wanna make it seem like after that break again. This is important, Stuart. After that breakthrough week, it wasn't like. Like there were relapses where I became convinced that I was gonna harm myself. The intrusive thoughts were still there, but the edge was off of it. It's like I'd proven to myself that, hey, maybe. Maybe what I'd done is I'd proven to myself that, like, I'm actually dealing with O C, D. I'm not actually depressed, schizophrenic, all the other things that my brain, you know, thought that I was okay.

A

So up to that point, maybe your insight was low that you. Cause often we hear, like, for a lot of people with ocd, they're like, I know that. I know I don't want to kill myself, but what if. Right. But for you, was it more like. No, I feel maybe I do want to hurt myself.

B

Yeah. I think that I knew. I think my insight that I had, I just. Yes. Like, the ocd, the Doubt Machine was so strong. What if the psychiatrist is wrong? What if Brooke is wrong? It was a lot of that. And I think that that proved to me, like, no, they're right. Like, this. This is ocd. And maybe that was like, the unlock that then allowed me over the next five months to really, like, you know, start to tamper down on the whole syndrome.

A

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Oh, I imagine you would have got in that moment was that week even was like, diffusion. You were getting distance. You could finally see, oh, this is ocd. And then when it's ocd, it's easier to deal with than the content. The thing we're worried about.

B

Exactly.

A

Yeah. Wow. And obviously, I guess at that point, OCD had also taken a lot, you know, was. It was Peak Performance. Your first book.

B

That was my first book.

A

Yeah. So obviously on that day, you know, this day of media and all of that, which should have been a really exciting day. Was no doubt, absolutely horror horrific.

B

Yeah. The whole experience was so bizarre because I'm getting all of these emails from young people essentially saying, like, wow, you're only 30. You've got this breakout book, like, tell me how to do it. And I'm like, I can't, I can't even leave my house right now. Which ultimately led me to write about this experience because, like, the, the dissonance between what people thought was going on and what was going on was very different. But, you know, I, I, I don't know if we should get into that part of the story, but I, I, it was in maybe March, so five, six months after the exposure breakthrough. I remember sharing with Brooke the therapist, because at the time, I wouldn't say I'm like a public figure. My platform has grown since then, but I was writing for pretty large outlets and continuing to get all of these emails. I remember telling Brooke that, like, I'm gonna have, I'm either gonna have to stop writing or I'm going to have to address this. Because I write about psychology and philosophy and human flourishing, and this is a huge part of my experience, and it feels beyond disingenuous not to write about it. And she's like, great, why don't you write about it? And I had actually no concern that people were going to think less of me or anything like that. My fear was not, oh, no, people are going to think I'm a fraud, because maybe it's, maybe I have too big of an ego, but, like, I'm a pretty good writer. And I'm like, I'm going to write about this in a way that, like, you know, people aren't going to think I'm a fraud. I'm going to be honest, I was terrified to write about it because I thought that by writing about it, it would be like trying to exert control on the ocd. And then the OCD would come back and be like, oh, you know, you think you can write about me? Like, let me show you how. Like, how I am in total control of you. And now people are gonna ask you about ocd, and you're gonna be so sick, you're not even gonna be able to answer. So that became the next exposure. Brooke's like, yeah, you have to write about it. Like, if you're scared to write about this. Cause you think that somehow by writing about it, it's gonna make the OCD worse, then go write about it. So I wrote this article. It was published in outside Magazine it was called When a Stress Expert Battles Mental Illness in. I didn't think it was going to have a big response. It's a little bit off my beat, so on and so forth. And to this day it's like the most widely read thing I've ever written. I received thousands, not hundreds, thousands of emails from so many people, including people who are truly world class at what they do. Like Olympic gold medalists, Michelin star chefs, Grammy winning musicians saying like, yeah, OCD sucks, like me too. And I get chills down my spine telling that story because it is such a misunderstood disease. And so many individuals that really excel at what they do have experience with ocd. And I think that, you know, that was also just a part of my recovery was like being able to face it and say like, I can write about this and it's not going to make it worse.

A

Yeah, wow. Well, good for you because that obviously would have been terrifying to write and not just from a fear that OCD is going to come back, but I'm sure from you're being vulnerable, you're exposing yourself. Right. To everyone that didn't know you went through that or were you okay with that at that point?

B

I was more okay with that. I think my mindset is a right, like my. One of my core values professionally is just tell the truth. And there's so much nonsense and bullshit in like the performance personal development space. I've gotten pretty good at like not really caring cause like I'm just guided by the truth that it, it wasn't a problem for me. In, in there's this great psychiatrist who said like, you know, a part of performance is playing through the pain and I, I just immediately am like, yeah, that's right. And there was a lot to offer because I, I could be very honest in what I wrote. And a part of that piece that felt really important to me is I used to think I knew what depression or anxiety meant because I had just assumed that it was like the worst sadness or the worst doubt. But until I actually experienced these things, I couldn't have known. So the metaphor I use piece, it's like there are people standing on one side of the river and you're on the other side and you can look across the river and you can see them all standing there and you can say like, oh yeah, they're standing in some mud. Like I can imagine what that feels like. But it's not until you're actually on the other side of the river that you have any idea what that's like, and that's important for me too, because I don't get frustrated. Like, people are like, oh, that's so ocd. I don't judge people for saying that. I don't get frustrated because, like, I probably said that before this experience, you gotta be on the other side of the river to gain that experience. Then I viewed my job in that piece, and some of my later work is like, one for people that are on that side of the river. Whether it's ocd, depression, anxiety. I think these things tend to go together to try to give a vocabulary and language for what they're experiencing and then also to help people that are not on that side of the river kind of understand more what it's like without romanticizing it. Because over the last decade, as you know, there's been this trend sometimes to romanticize mental illness, which I think is so stupid. So to be vulnerable, not to shy away from it, accept it can be a part of our story, and sometimes the forces underlying OCD can also be forces that underlie greatness and conscientiousness and all these things that actually lead to success, but never to romanticize it, because it's not romantic at all. It's terrible. It sucks. The whole myth of the tortured genius. I did shit work in those six months that I was really sick, or the nine months, whatever the exact time was, I couldn't produce a sentence that made sense. So, like, no, this is not something to romanticize. And it's a part of my story. It's a part of how I think about human nature now. So, like, of course it's going to be a part of my writing.

A

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Do you feel going through that has made you a better writer?

B

I think it's made me a more compassionate person towards others and towards myself. I think it's softened me quite a bit.

A

Yeah. Which inevitably probably makes you write better stuff, hopefully.

B

But even if it doesn't, like, you know, it. It. It is. It is what it is. I think that. I think it really taught me that going through big challenges both hardens you and softens you at the same time. And I think that that is just a really important lesson for any big challenge in life. And I think oftentimes people have this false dichotomy between hard and soft or like discipline and kindness. And I think what my OCD experience taught me is actually, you do generally need a lot of fierce self discipline, and you also need a lot of fierce self kindness. And when you do something hard, it makes you A badass, but it also softens you. And I think, like, that has just been really instrumental in how I think about the world now.

A

Yeah, that's a really good way of looking at it. And you know, I'm trying to. It kind of leads into your latest book, but I'm wondering if I have any more questions on your story before I go down that path.

B

I'm trying to think of other things that could be helpful. Like, I think the I, I. Something that I learned in my journey is just like, there's an evidence based toolkit and people have a lot of strong opinions about the value of medicine, the value of exercise, the value of therapy. I think they're all tools in a toolkit and your job is to figure out the right mix of tools. That works for you. For me, I was a lifelong athlete, a pretty good one. And like, obviously if exercise would have prevented or treated this, none of this would have happened. So it wasn't like, oh, just go exercise. You're going to feel better. Um, in, in the, like the ssri, it, it certainly doesn't make things worse. And I found one where I don't have side effects. So like, I, I proudly take an ssri. It doesn't bother me at all. I don't think the SSRI would have been effective without the therapy. And maybe the therapy was more effective because of the ssri, but like, it's also just made me less dogmatic around evidence based things. Um, so that I, I think that's like a part of my story. Because yes, the, the, the therapy part like felt harrowing and, and I did all of that and it was extremely hard. And I don't think based on my own experience, but also like what I've researched and learned from others. Like when you have a fairly severe case of ocd, like I had, I don't think just like taking an SSRI fixes it, but I do think maybe it opens up some space for therapy to be more effective. But it's not like all I did was therapy. I also took an ssri. I think there's like, you know, there's, there's some people that kind of view it as a badge of honor that like they raw dogged it and you know, all the power to you. But that wasn't my story.

A

No, no, exactly. It's, it's. Yeah, we're, We're. We're. Each of us is a unique kind of puzzle. Might not be the right metaphor, but, you know, we're all. Or, yeah, we all need different tools to kind of help. Help put us together.

B

Something else that was helpful too, Stuart, is I went to some OCD support groups in Northern California that were like, at the hospital system near where we lived. And I think that was helpful just, like, for me to realize how normal. What I thought was utterly abnormal was because you hear some of these people who like, went to university are married with kids. You know, on looking at them, they just seem like high functioning, normal people. I don't even like the word normal, but like high functioning adults. And then they start to talk about their ocd and it's like the most bat shit crazy stuff, you know, I remember this one guy that's like, I can't be around pens or pencils, come stab myself in the eyeball. And this guy's like a surgeon. And it's like, you went to med school and you became a surgeon and like, you won't be in a room with a pencil. And now I can kind of like smile as I say that because it sounds so absurd, but I think that, like, I have such a warmness and like a fondness and my heart, like, goes to people like that because I get it. Like, that's me. For me, it wasn't a pencil, it was a knife, whatever. But like, it, it really made me see that, like, this is just a bizarre, weird thing, that when you're in it, you feel so utterly alone and so broken because it's so absurd. But then when you meet other people, it's like it's a fairly predictable set of symptoms and expressions and it normalized it. And that was really helpful.

A

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I'm glad you mentioned that. So obviously, meds, therapy, support groups, what else helped on your journey of like, just general, maybe mental well being in your recovery process?

B

Having a, just a super patient, loving wife that also is a really skilled attorney, which means she's not like soft in Singh Kumbaya, which was actually perfect for ERP because, like, she got on board with ERP real fast. And she, she was the first one to be like, I don't know, like, maybe you're gonna kill yourself, maybe not. But, like, stop fucking asking me. It's annoying. Like, I mean, she wasn't that bad about it, but like, she, she was like, yeah, like, she, she was, she was kind and patient and compassionate, but she also, like, was just very matter of fact good friends that I felt like I could open up to once I had a grasp on what was going on that were there to support me. A younger brother that so like people, I think, and then I've always been an athlete and someone who just like loves exercising. But like, this happened to me literally on a day that I did a long run. So I don't think it helped. I don't think it hurt. But I continue to exercise as best I could throughout all of this. And then the work is Stephen Hayes in acceptance and commitment, which I'm really grateful for, because even now in a place of relative stability and recovery, it's still kind of a guiding principle in my life is acceptance and commitment.

A

Yeah, I'm glad you said that. Is there anything in particular about ACT that you really like or appreciate?

B

I think what I like about ACT is just how practical it is in how it allows you to be so consistent. Like, it doesn't rely on some grandiose purpose statement for life. It simply says, like, these are the things that I value. And in any moment where you have doubt or intrusive thoughts or even just run of the mill fear, like sub ocd, you can ask yourself, I value wisdom. I value strength. I value creativity. Well, what would a strong person do? What would a creative person do? And just do it. And I really think that mood follows action. And I'm a millennial. I think probably like you are probably similar age older millennials. I grew up in the self esteem power of positive thinking. Think positive thoughts. You should be motivated all the time. The goal is happiness. And I think act unwound all of that for me and said, actually no, the goal is to know your values and to live in alignment with them. And sometimes you'll be happy, sometimes you'll be sad, Sometimes the thoughts will be positive, sometimes they'll be terrible. But what you can control is your values. And you can just show up and act in alignment with them. And that's been such a gift to me beyond ocd, because that's how I try to parent my kids. It's how I show up for my wife. That's how I show up as a writer. So, yeah, I think. I think that has been wonderful.

A

Yeah. Yeah, that's really good. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. We're pretty much bang on the same age, so I can relate to everything you're saying because you at that time were living in San Francisco or the Bay Area. I imagine you might have been in sort of meditation circles, that sort of thing, or people pro that. Did you ever do any of that or try any of that?

B

I did and I found. I found mindfulness based meditation to be extremely helpful. I hooked up with someone named Judson Brewer, who has a really good book called the Craving Mind. And then he more recently wrote another book on anxiety. I'm forgetting what it's called. And he was like a wonderful teacher and mentor to me in mindfulness practices and some of the basic tenets of Buddhism. And I found all that extremely helpful, I think, especially for Pure O. At least that's what it was called back then. But the subtype where there's not really visible compulsions. Mindfulness is great because you sit down and you just have intrusive thoughts and you can't really do anything about them other than watch them be there and try to be curious and then let them go. So I did meditate. I remember that when I had my first child, shortly after I was still pretty sick, I was meditating. So maybe this is like a year into Theo, my, my son's name's life. I was talking to Judson Brewer, the meditation teacher in just. I was checking in with him like once every couple months and just telling him it's really hard to meditate right now because I fall asleep whenever I try to meditate. I've got this young kid and my life's so busy and full. He's like, well, stop meditating. I'm like, what do you mean? You're like the meditation teacher? You wrote a book on this. He's like, yeah, it's just practice. Like if you feel like you have to meditate, then, then, then the actual practice is like not meditating. I haven't meditated since, so maybe that wasn't the best advice. But, um. But yeah, it, it, it was, I mean, all of this, right? It was all about some like cognitive diffusion in the ability to separate thoughts from, from action, from intent. Um, and then I think like the more spiritual elements of meditation that when I was practicing regularly for like a two year period, I'm glad you ask, I had some episodes or some sits where like I really embodied connected with. I don't know if I have the right words for it, with like, just like a loving awareness underneath everything else. And those are powerful moments if you've had that experience because you can just remember that that's there and it doesn't go away. Maybe like it was four or five sits where it was just like, wow, like I am just loving awareness and like I just want to love and be loved and everything else just gonna come and go. But like, this is what's underneath it all. Those are really powerful experiences.

A

Yeah. Yeah, very much so. Awesome. So your most recent Book, the Way of Excellence. Firstly, how's that been received? How's it going since publication?

B

It's going great. And I think that I was thinking about like, how do we talk about this book, given this show? And I think I have the answer to that. But the book's Going Great is the first time I hit all the big bestseller list. And it's being read quite widely, particularly among people who are really world class at what they do, which is just thrilling. It's been read all around. The National Basketball association, the NBA, the Grammy Award winning violinist, Hilary Hans. That's the best book she's read. Sebastian Saye, who just broke the two hour marathon record in London, his coach was reading the book and they used it to help him prepare. Like, I'm just floored it, it, it's, it's so incredible and so it's going great. And I think that what's really neat about it is twofold. The first is like you write something about ocd and because it's maybe more prevalent than we think, it follows you around. So it's not like everyone who loves the book has ocd. But like, I've also gotten to know from a lot of readers that like, oh, this book was great. And then I started googling your name and I read about your OCD and like, it's awesome that you have ocd. And I'm like, I don't think it's awesome, but like, you're one of us. And it did get me, like more curious. And this is such a tough line to walk and I'm gonna lean on you to help me walk it because again, like, I don't wanna romanticize this and I don't wanna draw conclusions that the research hasn't borne yet, but I do think that there is something about like this underlying inner mongrel or this energy that like just can turn a screwdriver and tighten it and tighten it and tighten it. Which is what OCD felt like for me and for a lot of people with OCD that I've spoken with, like, you just, you tighten it, it's like an itch that you just scratch, scratching it until it explodes. I think that same force maybe helps propel someone to start a company, or is underneath someone training for the Olympics or is underneath someone making music and not like, oh, they're making music because they're suffering. But making music is actually really tedious and it requires a lot of steps and you can never quit. It's like an inner mongrel. Now this could all just be selection bias that I hear from people who read my book that also know that I have ocd. So it comes up. But I will say that I'm shocked. I continue to be shocked at how many people are like, oh, this was awesome, because, like, you really verbalized what it's like to pursue excellence and give something your all. And then I found out that you have ocd, and I do too. And my OCD was contamination, or my OCD was other harm, or my OCD was self harm. So that's been really interesting to see. And I think also that the pursuit of excellence and trying to craft an excellent life in going through and even maybe being in the thick of mental illness in real debilitating challenges is a euphemism. They're not challenges, just, they fucking suck. It can all be a part of your story. And it doesn't mean that you have to like it, it doesn't mean that you should romanticize it, but it does mean that it. Like, it doesn't preclude you from striving for whatever it is that you want to strive for in life. It doesn't preclude you from contributing from your own version of greatness. I think it's just like, it's all a part of it.

A

Yeah, Yeah, I think so. I mean, I work with children and young people primarily, so I'm not necessarily seeing high performance athletes just yet. They might turn into them. But yeah, most people with OCD that I come across are, yeah, either like you're saying, really driven or they're curious or very compassionate or very smart, creative. There's always some sort of drive there in some sort of capacity. Absolutely, yeah.

B

I think you have to have a big imagination to have ocd. Um, and I also think that you have to be pretty conscientious because it takes a lot of work and a lot of effort to keep doing mental compulsions or visible compulsions and to keep turning the same thoughts over in your head. I remember having a conversation I'm not going to name this person with an Olympian, an incredible swimmer. And this person essentially said, I mean, and this person has ocd. And they said, well, let's talk about what I've done For the last 15 years of my life. I'm like, what do you mean? This person's like, every day I wake up and my first thought is, I need to swim. And if I don't swim, I feel terrible. Like, I feel dread in my body. And then when I swim, I'm literally just staring At a line in a pool for five hours a day. And I can be traveling, I can be on vacation and I have to find a pool with a line in it. Otherwise I feel terrible and I just stare at that line and swim and it's the only thing that makes me feel better. But then if I miss it the next day, I feel terrible again. And because I happen to be relatively good at this, people praise me and call me an Olympic medalist. But then when I do it in other areas of my life, people call me insane, but it's the same thing. And that was like really interesting and eye opening to me. And it's like that screw. Again, not romanticizing it. I think that if you're, if you're listening and if you're listening to the show, you probably have OCD experience. Maybe you're in the thick of it. Maybe you're a caretaker or a loved one or a friend of someone with ocd. I do think that like a part of recovery, a part of living with ocd, or if you prefer the words like moving beyond it is really like accepting that force in you and then doing what you can to set up constraints, to channel it productively without it completely disrupting your life. And I almost think of like, you've got this like really intense, powerful force, Whether it's imagination, creativity, conscientiousness, drive, ambition, intellect, curiosity. Maybe it's a combination of those things. And your job as someone with OCD is to build a pipe or like an encasing that that force can move through. And the pipe can be made of different materials. It's going to depend on the person. It can be therapy, it can be medication, it can be exercise, it can be meditation, it can be support groups, community, making sure that you take care of your sleep. All these things create this casing of the pipe. And then as long as you keep that casing strong, hopefully you can harness that force for productive aims. And when I say productive, I don't mean productivity, I mean art, raising a family, doing things that align with your values. And that pipe can have weak points. There can be periods of life where it weakens. Oh no, I skipped therapy because I got really busy or I haven't gone to the gym, or I haven't done my fast paced walk because I'm launching this company or whatever it is. And you can get by with some weak points in the pipe. But if you don't tend to that pipe, eventually it's going to burst. And when it bursts, it goes from, oh, I'm doing everything I can to launch this book, or I'm doing everything I can to train from a marathon to now I'm having intrusive thoughts. And this feels a lot like ocd.

A

Yeah, absolutely. And I guess as you're talking, it's not something I've really thought about before, but, yeah, because I use act a lot. And we think about values and, like, trying to get my clients to move in the direction of their values, you know, live life on their terms in spite of all the thoughts and feelings, put all the energy that they're putting into OCD into. Towards their values. Right. I've never thought about. It is like transferring their energy into something more productive in that. In that language. But, yeah, when I think about this show and the podcast and my therapy career and everything I'm trying to do in that I'm quite. I don't say obsessive, but maybe I am at times in that I'm very driven. I'm very passionate about what I do. It's a similar energy. It's just the flip side. And OCD was like this dark shadow that I had to deal with, but that energy was there. It's just moved into something different.

B

Yeah, I think that's. That's a really more elegant way of saying it than I did. I think that's exactly. I think that's it. And again, I think the challenge is, like, then you can kind of start to romanticize it, and it's not. It's not romanticizing at all. It's just saying, like, hey, this is your wiring. This is your nature and how you were raised. And now our work is to try to, like, channel that energy towards things that align with our values, and when it goes haywire, to do what we can to kind of put it back on the path. And I do find that. I find, like, when I let. When I. When I. To use that metaphor of, like, the pipe casing, when I don't tend to the pipe or when I let it rust, I start to have intrusive thoughts in the same kind of energy that can help me launch a book and send emails to every single news publication and hold onto 40 different things in my mind. And when I'm copy editing, like, focus on every single word. And then there's all of this checking that happens now in modern publishing so you can look at your sales rank and how many books you're selling and all this, and you can get caught up in that swirl and you can feel great and like, I'm doing my job. But it's actually like, no, I'm just like looking for reassurance everywhere I can. And this is pretty similar to the energy that is, that is what I guess I'd call ocd. And those are the times when I personally have to step back and be careful and be like, okay, like time to time to take stock of this so that the pipe doesn't burst.

A

Yeah, that's a good way of looking at it. Yeah. And I think we also need to be mindful that we're not putting all this energy into something as almost another compulsion. Right. Hence like workaholism.

B

Work, work, workaholism.

A

Workaholism, workaholism. Because that's just an escapism, right? It's another form of compulsion. Versus. I'm writing this book because I'm really passionate about this topic.

B

Well, that's bingo. And that's, that's a part of, of my framework for excellence. And this is in the book. I think that there is a big difference between doing something and giving something. Your all in doing it because you genuinely want to and you're curious about it versus because you're compelled to. So you could have two people and let's just say an enormous unhealthy number. Let's say you have two people and they're both working 80 hours a week, which I don't encourage anyone do. One person is doing it because they are so fired up and passionate about their project. The other person is doing it is because they feel like they simply cannot not do it. If they try to step away, if they try to rest, they feel guilty, they feel dread, they feel panic. The first person, you know, to the outside eye, they both look the same, but the first person is going to have so much higher quality work and so much more longevity and sustainability than the second person. So I actually, in the book there's a whole section where I separate obsession from excellence because not obsession like ocd, like all these bros in hustle culture. They're like, you gotta be obsessed. The key to greatness is obsession. And it's like you people are clowns. You don't know what you're talking about. There's a big difference between being interested and curious in what the researchers call harmoniously passionate about something versus being obsessed. And the main definition is when you are obsessed, you do it even though you don't want to. When you are pursuing excellence, you do it because you genuinely want to. When you are pursuing excellence, you make very deliberate conscious trade offs about what you are Willing to sacrifice. When you are obsessed, you let that force run amok. So it's a very like it's nuanced but I think that that's exactly it. Like if it becomes a compulsion if you don't have control over the drive and the drive controls you, that's problematic. If you have control over the drive and you are choosing to work that huge week or to give a project your all that can be, that's how like vaccines get created. You know Steven Hayes who created acceptance and commitment therapy. I got to interview him multiple times from my work. That guy's obsessed. But he was able to channel it towards excellence. And it took him so many hours and so much hard work and so many trade offs and probably not being the friend that some other friends are, not being the husband that some other husbands are because he was so passionate about his work and thank God for him and what he created. But it was by choice. And I think if I'm being totally honest, deep within all of us, it's never full choice or full compulsion. There might always be a little part of us that's like I kind of feel compelled to do it. But I do think that if we're honest with ourselves, we can figure out what's the underlying texture of our drive. And is it one of fear or lack or doubt or compulsion or is it one of curiosity and creativity and excitement?

A

Yeah, yeah. And I, I definitely find in my work it's like a balancing act. Sometimes if I find myself slipping into that, I'm kind of feel I have to do it, obligated to do it. I know that if I stay on that path too long, it's going to lead me to a. Not a good place. Yeah, no, it's. It's interesting. I'm glad you got interview Steve. He's. He's an incredible guy. I was gonna say that. Yeah. I mean Dr. Michael Orsey's work. I don't know if you've seen any of his stuff.

B

I haven't, no.

A

See you can find him on Instagram. He wrote a book called the Upside of ocd which sounds.

B

Oh, I know this book. Yeah, I do know this book. I actually think I might be in that book. Yeah.

A

Oh really? Yeah, yeah. He's a nice guy. So he, he. It kind of feels like he's. He's not trying to find a silver lining at all. He's just kind of saying kind of similar to what you and I have, that there's this, this dark element. Not dark meaning evil, but just you know, unhelpful element that is ocd that causes, destroys lives, all of this. But underneath the ocd, they signal certain character traits like creativity, curiosity, all empathy. And actually, when you treat the ocd, what's left is this incredible human being. And that's what he's talking.

B

Yeah, I think that's great. And I think that's true. And I think that also, like, it just. I don't know, like, there's gotta be so much self compassion just to be like, I. I can't tell you how many times, Stuart, I tell myself some version of like, this is my wiring, it is what it is. And like, it's not always easy to be wired like this, but I also wouldn't have it any other way. Cause like, this is who I am.

A

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. It takes some time to get there, but when you get there, it's. Yeah, well, that's acceptance as well, right? Acceptance of your brain and how it operates and. And for those, you know, because sometimes excellence can be a trigger word for people, right. Of like, I don't want to pursue excellence. And it's like you said, they've seen all these bros talking about obsession and being obsessed with things and grinding and hustling.

B

Yeah, they're clowns.

A

Yeah. What is your definition of excellence?

B

My definition of excellence is heartfelt engagement with something worthwhile that aligns with your values. So really caring about something, not being too cool or not being scared to care, caring about something, giving it your all, like giving it your heart, really trying to be consistent and disciplined in, focused and then doing it in a way that aligns with your values. And I think that we can't all have an excellent result. Not everyone can be Michael Jordan. That takes certain genetics. But we can all get the benefits from throwing ourselves into a process of excellence. And that's what I argue for in my book and really in my life's work, is that when we pursue excellence, the things that we work on in the way in which we work on them, they also work on us. So you might think that your goal is the marathon and you're working on the marathon, or your goal is to learn woodwork or to learn how to play an instrument. And you're working on that, but the marathon is also working on you. It's teaching you about resilience and setbacks and being uncomfortable and the power of community and all of these things that are shaping you as a person. So if you look back to the history of the word excellence, it really originated with the Ancient Greeks and they called it arete. And for them, when you pursued excellence, you developed your character, they didn't care about the outcome. What it was about is like shaping your character. And that's very much how I see excellence. And that's what I want to reclaim. Because I think that what's happened over the last 20 years, especially the last 10, 15 with social media, is this word that is so noble and so honorable that really I firmly believe gives rise to our best life. And every single incredible contribution to the world, like the MRNA vaccines that got us out of COVID was a direct result of Catalyn. Carico's pursuit of excellence. Like that is excellence. We need people pursuing excellence. Um, but it got bastardized and it got turned into 47 supplements and six cold plunges and taping your no shot at night and tracking your heart rate variability and all of this nonsense that, that, that. Like, I, I can tell you I've spoke with countless hundreds of world class performers and they all think all of that's garbage. It's just nonsense. It's marketing. But the marketers have kind of appropriated and stolen this term and the biggest goal of the book was to reclaim it and take it back.

A

Yeah, yeah, I really like that, that view of excellence. Yeah. Because yeah, the other view is like, it's an outcome and it's not, it's the journey. It's what. How it, as you said, how the half marathon and marathon shapes you and makes you. Yeah, yeah. I did a half marathon recently and it was horrible. And I don't, I'm done with running now. But my point is like, I learned so much in the training, in every battle I had with my mind trying to keep running. And you know, yeah, that was, that was the excellence. Not my time or anything like that.

B

Yep. I think, I think, I think it's just important to separate the result from the process. And results matter. You know, if you're in a job, like, you have to hit targets. It's not to say like, let's all just sing Kumbaya, results don't matter, but the real reward is the person that you become along the way. And that's where excellence lives. There's this great quote from Robert Persig who says the only Zen on the tops of mountains is the Zen that you bring up there with you. And that's how I think about excellence. So it's like create some Zen in the pursuit of whatever your goals are, whether it's the smallest goal of running your first mile consecutively. Or whether you're trying to be a world champion and win a gold medal.

A

Yeah, yeah, I like that. And you mentioned the Stoics a minute ago, right? Yeah. There's Marcus Aurelius behind me.

B

Yeah.

A

On the skateboard.

B

Another tradition that people just bastardize and misunderstand. But it's cool. Like in the. There's a chapter in this book on the philosophy of excellence. It's a shorter chapter, but it was really neat to see. The Greeks, the Stoics, Buddhism has this term, right effort or right striving that looks a lot like Arete. And that all of these different wisdom traditions kind of converge around, like, the power of trying to harness your unique talents and gifts and contribute to the world, which I think is cool. I think that all of us have limited time here. We should try to contribute. We should try to love. And in many ways, like, the pursuit of excellence is pretty similar to love. Like, you can you care deeply about something? There's a reason people say, like, I love the game, I love the craft. Well, what is love if not paying attention, in being consistent, in showing up, in being endlessly curious, in commitment, in working through plateaus and setbacks? Like, that defines a relationship with an intimate partner, but that can also define a relationship with an instrument, with a sport, with a therapy practice, with a business, with a team that you lead. Um, and I just think, like, we should do everything we can to create more of that.

A

Yeah, Yeah, I agree. It gives life meaning, and I think that's incredibly important in the face of OCD recovery. Right. Yeah. Amazing. Anything else you want to say on your book or books generally?

B

No, I think it's good. I think if you find this conversation interesting. Interesting. Read it. It's called the Way of Excellence. I think it's my new book. I think it's probably my best one, if I'm being honest. You can get it wherever you get books. It's not an OCD book. So if you're someone that is in the thick of a really bad OCD experience, I recommend Mark Freeman's book, you Are Not a Rock. In Stephen Hayes's book A Liberated Mind. There's others, too, but those are the two that were really powerful for me. If you're someone that is looking for a book that's not just about ocd, then, yeah, I think you might love the Way of Excellence. I guess it's. It's. It's a perspective on the pursuit of getting better in a meaningful way from someone whose story you just heard.

A

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I'm listening to it on audible at the minute just because I've got too many books on the go, so. Yeah, but no, it's good, it's good. I'm enjoying it. So you, let's say you got a billboard where you live. What do you want written on that billboard?

B

Can I have more than one billboard or you're going to make it hard? I just get one.

A

I'm not paying for it. But you can have more than one.

B

I think one says give a damn. And what I mean by that is like care, which is not hard for people with OCD to do, I think, I think it's probably just more of a reminder. And then I think the second, be kind to yourself.

A

Yeah, yeah, I like that.

B

And I think they actually go hand in hand because I think if you're gonna give a damn and you're gonna care deeply about things, you're gonna get your heart broken. So you gotta learn how to be kind to yourself. I mean, that's like, that's the work of a lifetime is combining those two forces.

A

Yeah, no, I agree. I agree with that. Yeah, absolutely. And you say you pick up the phone and call the 20 year old you. What do you tell him?

B

Keep going.

A

Okay. Yeah, nice.

B

Just keep going.

A

Yeah.

B

Keep swimming.

A

Yeah. Yeah, I like it. And lastly, anything else you wish you could have said or shared today?

B

No, I'll take a minute to express my gratitude to you. We were saying offline when I was really sick, this podcast was instrumental to me both from a learning and skill development standpoint to hearing inspiring stories from other people. So to come on this show and hopefully, maybe even if it helps one person, I'm really grateful for all that you do. I had kind of put a moratorium on recording new podcasts because I did so money for the book and when you reached out, I responded to you immediately. I'm like, yes, it's just an honor. So really thank you for the service that you do. Stuart.

A

No, thank you. It means a lot and I'm glad to have been some part of your story. So thank you so much for coming on and sharing your book and your life and your journey. Thank you, thank you for listening to this week's podcast and thank you to our patrons who helped make this episode possible. And if you would like to find out more about Patreon and the rewards and benefits, then there will be a link in the episode description. If you enjoy the OCD Stories podcast and would like to support us, please subscribe and rate the show wherever you listen to the podcast and thank you to NOCD for supporting our work. If you want to find out more about nocd, you can click the link in the episode description and quick disclaimer Guys, this podcast is not therapy. It is not a replacement for therapy. Please seek treatment from a trained professional and until we speak, take care.