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Gaz

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Podcast Host

Hello and welcome to the Rest is Football. England have made it through to the semi finals of the World cup where they'll play Argentina the first time Messi has ever played against England. We'll be discussing that and much more with Micah Richards, Joe Cole and Ali McCoist. And don't forget, if you prefer to watch the show, it's available on Netflix.

Joe Cole

Jude Bellingham, superstar from a neutral.

Micah Richards

Superstar, yeah, Absolute superstar. I mean, you and I were speaking about him, right? Yeah. I mentioned instant they get the ball, he's running. What's the touchline? He's got three players on him. I said to Gary, he'll keep us and he's got no right to keep it. And he keeps you, gets a free kick. See, when you've got gold dust like that in your team and Harry Kane is the other one, you've always got a chance. He is a superstar.

Joe Cole

He is. I would go as far as to say, I think there's a chance that I think he could well be or end up being England's greatest ever footballer. And that is a big shout. We've had some really great players. Some of them have not necessarily done it for their country. Others have go back to people like Bobby Charlton, obviously, I would say would have to be up there. You would put Harry Kane in that bracket and there are other players as well. But I think at this age, to be doing what he's doing and to grabbing England by the scruff and getting them over the line, that is a superstar reaction. I think it's just incredible. Incredible what he's doing, Joe.

Ali McCoist

Yeah, he's definitely in the conversation. I remember when he turned up when he was about 18 in England squad and I was talking to a few of the lads, Declan, people out there going, this kid's unbelievable. When you hear players talk about it, it makes you excited because media can talk about press, everyone else can talk about when the players were training every day and top players are excited by him.

Joe Cole

And he's in your conversation. When he was a child, a child and they retired his number. Everyone in the game's going, what's going on here?

Joe

What's going on?

Micah Richards

This is a bit of an overreaction, these goals, right? He scores all sorts of goals, you know what I mean? His first goal today, first touch is brilliant, second touch is good, third touch is good. And the fourth touch is magnificent. And then his second goal is a centre forwards goal.

Joe Cole

Yeah. I mean, I think he's got the ability to be a nine. I think he's got that natural movement in the box. We've seen it at this work repeatedly. He's played there for Real Madrid. He's played there for Real Madrid. I mean, when I spoke to Thomas Tuchel, I did and he said that he thought he'd probably. If something happened to Kane, he might play him as the nine, which wouldn't surprise me. He runs and he chases and he harries, but you need a player, you need someone such a big personality to drag you over the line sometimes.

Gaz

Definitely. I wanted to ask you, Joe, you played in that position. He's playing essentially number 10 for England. What do you like about his game? Why is he so good? Yes, Gaz has mentioned his personality. We all know he's got that. He's got that stature. He's playing for Real Madrid, he's got that confidence. But in terms of the tactical and the technical aspect, why does he shine so much?

Ali McCoist

He takes responsibility in all aspects of the game. If you watch him off the ball, he leads the press. And England been really good on the press. When we got the ball, you can't mark him. Because I was a number 10, I like to come to feet and find pockets. I wasn't really good at running in behind. I used to do it, but almost as like a gesture, because you have to do it for your team to sometimes make space for other people. When he does it, you see, he runs with purpose, like, in every aspect. He's the most complete. When you. When you said, Gary, is he going to be the. The best England player of all time at the moment, you can't really argue with that because you look at his attributes and go, he's actually the most complete player. I love Glenn Hoddle. I think Glenn Hoddle's the best player. He came. But Glenn can't run like Jude. Yeah, but Glenn. Jude can pass like Glenn. Yeah, not quite like Glenn. Not quite like.

Micah Richards

Do you know what he can do? Boys, right in arguably his biggest quality, he can pass, his movement's good, he's strong, everything. He can play general. His skills win the game. But you know what? He is more than anything? You watch him. He's a winner. He's a winner.

Joe Cole

He's a winner.

Micah Richards

He's a winner.

Joe Cole

Absolutely. Absolutely. He's now got seven World cup goals. I mean, for crying out loud, Kane's gone. I'm going to be third.

Joe

And that list is looking great now.

Joe Cole

It's not bad, is it?

Joe

Oh, my God. Hurricane 14, epoxy 10.

Gaz

Alan Shearer didn't want him to start at the world.

Joe

Can we have a chat about.

Joe Cole

No, we need to have a chat.

Joe

We need to have a chat, big man. Before the tournament, a certain Alan Shearer said he shouldn't start for England.

Gaz

Morgan Rodgers is a fantastic Player and

Joe Cole

came on and did really, really well and made the goal.

Gaz

Yeah.

Joe

But I suggested the potential could start together.

Gaz

He could play off the leg. Morgan Rodgers.

Joe

But he said Jude Bellingham. Yes, yes. I'm gonna say it again. Jude Bellingham should not start for England. He's the number one pundit at BBC, by the way. A taxpayer's money as well. A taxpayer's money. Hey, Alan, they want the money back. Hurry up and get back here, William, so you can defend yourself.

Joe Cole

Then I ask a really important question. Is it silent H in Bellingham?

Gaz

But what is it?

Joe Cole

You said Bellingham, and it's made me

Joe

think, Bellingham, I'm from Birmingham. That's what we say, Bellingham.

Gaz

Well, I'm part of Birmingham.

Micah Richards

I would have to say that.

Joe

But he said it. He said it.

Joe Cole

Bellingham's from Birmingham.

Micah Richards

Oh, dear.

Joe Cole

She also joined the Golden Boot Race 6, same as Harry Kane. I think it's the first time two players have scored six goals or more, I think, in World cup history, which is. Look at that list of players on there.

Gaz

You know what's good about that? Everyone's turned up.

Joe

Killing the bath.

Gaz

Messi Harland.

Ali McCoist

Yep.

Micah Richards

Absolutely.

Gaz

Bellingham. K Dembele even started well. Vinnie Jr. To be honest, I really liked him.

Micah Richards

And you've got six left in it, I think. Yeah. Six left in it that are up there. Six out of ten.

Joe Cole

He's amazing. Shall we get a little comment from Alan Sheen?

Ali McCoist

Do we have to give it?

Micah Richards

Yeah.

Gaz

Do we have to?

Micah Richards

I think it's long overdue after what you've told him.

Joe

He's miles off the base coaster.

Joe Cole

He was actually at the game and after it, he spoke to Rob Jones.

Rob Jones

Just four remain then at this 20, 26 World cup and England into the semi finals for just the fourth time, Alan Shearer has watched them win in a very warm Miami today. Thomas Tuchel speaking after the match. Alan about being not happy with almost any aspect of the performance apart from the mentality. The one thing he can take, though, is the result.

Micah Richards (continued)

That's the big picture. That's what they had to do. They had to somehow win the game. They had to get through to the semifinal and they did that. But there are other things to look at. Clearly, they somehow found a way without playing well, particularly second half. I thought they were really poor. Norway came out with a much the better team. And then I was thinking, okay, even after the hydration break, Thomas can get into his players again and they can go again for another 20 or 25 minutes. But it never really happened at all. But you have to say, and give him credit, his substitutes worked again. I thought Spence came on. I thought he was absolutely magnificent up and down that left hand side. I thought the decision to deny him a penalty was a joke. Rogers obviously played his part, albeit with a shot. The keeper should have saved it. But the brilliant thing about Bellarmine is, you know, you make, if you make a hundred of those runs and you're lucky if you just get one, but it's that one that you go for in the hope that the keeper spills it. And his eyes must have lit up when he seen the keeper spill it and he was able to to tap it in and give England another victory courtesy of, of two goals again from him. And he's been absolutely outstanding again. I think that, what, four, five man of the matches now has been brilliant.

Rob Jones

Should we take a rough estimate of the amount of times Micah has mentioned that? You wouldn't have started him at the start of the talk in the last few hours. How many times has he brought that up?

Micah Richards (continued)

Sure, he's mentioned it a few.

Rob Jones

Not to you, though.

Micah Richards (continued)

No one listens to Micah anyway, so it's all right.

Micah Richards

But he does, he does have this

Rob Jones

incredible ability to seize the big moment. Jude Bellingham, and we've both watched guys like Messi, Ronaldo, not just doing World Cups, but time after time, Ronaldo, in the latter stages of a Champions League would arrive on the biggest stage. And Bellingham is doing that in his young career.

Micah Richards (continued)

Yeah, I mean, I've heard people say, goodness me, we're relying too much on him and Kane, I haven't got a problem with that. The big clubs, the big countries, rely on the big players. That's why they get paid the big bucks. That's why they're the superstars, because they turn up when you need them most. And he's done that in this tournament, as has Harry Kane, and hopefully he'll have another moment in that semi final.

Rob Jones

Interesting that you mentioned Rodgers and the shot that leads to the mistake. Do you find sometimes that a lot of teams don't shoot from distance that much? And Rodgers, I know, works very hard on his long shooting. But back at Villa and it's one of those, particularly when you get into extra time, it's worth a crack.

Micah Richards (continued)

Well, I'm actually pleased it was him on the ball because I think if it was someone that had been on the pitch for a long time that is started the game, I think they would have taken the opportunity option of passing it, because I'm not Sure, they had the energy to take that shot, albeit, as I said, the keeper spilled it. He should have saved it quite easily, but Bellingham was there to. To stick it away and we're all thankful for that, aren't we?

Rob Jones

Give me a sense of the occasion. The Norway fans certainly played their part, didn't they?

Micah Richards (continued)

Yeah, they were brilliant. It was. It was a really nice stadium. It was a good atmosphere. The England fans were pretty quiet in the second half, as you can understand, because they had very little to. To shout about. But once that goal went in, goodness. Goodness me. The lit up the. The place and it was. There was great energy from them. So, yeah, a bit of a frustrating night for large periods, but it ended well and that's the most important thing.

Rob Jones

Let's talk about some of the big officiating incidents as well. You've had a lot to say about VAR this week, so we'll start with. With one word answers on the three big ones, I guess. To your mind, was the referee right or the Var right? Not to feel it was a foul on Kane for the first Norway goal.

Micah Richards (continued)

Yeah, it wasn't a foul. They won the ball, clearly, and I was quite happy with that decision, albeit not the goal. But I've got no complaints with him not giving a foul.

Rob Jones

Right call for the disallowed Norway goal.

Micah Richards (continued)

Yeah, it was a right call because the ball wasn't in play, hence him starting again from a replay for. For a corner. He'd already pulled him up a few seconds before that as well. So clearly the ball wasn't in play. So that has to go back for a retake of the corner.

Rob Jones

Right call for the penalty to be overturned.

Micah Richards (continued)

No, I thought that was rubbish. I thought that. Honestly, I thought it was so bad. I mean, what is Jed Spence meant to do? He's well within his rights to step across him. It's not for the referee to decide where he puts his leg. He put it across him, which you're taught as a forward as a kid. I know he's not a forward, he's a fullback. But he did everything right. He did his job perfectly. And if the defender is stupid enough to make the challenge as he did, then you're running the risk of giving a penalty away. So the ref give it. But then for him to say he's got it absolutely wrong and a howler I thought was nonsense again.

Rob Jones

And that call is similar. It's the same Var as Egypt, Argentina. And again, you're going down the route of re refereeing the game a little

Micah Richards (continued)

bit Well, I thought. I thought the referee was a really experienced referee. He's managed big games before, so I was really surprised when the VAR sent him over. But then for him to agree with him, I was really surprised.

Micah Richards

I just.

Micah Richards (continued)

I thought it was nonsense. It was a. For me, it was a clear penalty.

Rob Jones

Back to New York, is it next?

Micah Richards (continued)

Back to New York in the morning for a couple of days and then heading to Atlanta with everyone on Tuesday for the game on Wednesday.

Rob Jones

We shall find a social thing for both of us. And as you didn't come to 50

Micah Richards (continued)

Cent last night, how was it?

Rob Jones

It was very good. Very enjoyable. The good news is that Flowrider is on at the same venue tonight, so I reckon we've just about got time.

Micah Richards (continued)

Changed your white trousers?

Rob Jones

Well, it's the nerves of watching England, that's why. Thank you very much indeed. Flo Rider had a great song with the Saturdays once and England have had a very good Saturday in Florida.

Gaz

Can we just have another look at what they're wearing, please?

Joe

They've come as twins.

Gaz

They'll definitely text each other before coming. Wear a beige top.

Joe

We're bright.

Micah Richards (continued)

Awful.

Joe

Terrible.

Gaz

I don't know what I think.

Joe

What did he say? Hugo Dross? Yes, exactly. That Ralph Laurentis.

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Gaz

He's had a bad night.

Ali McCoist

Huh?

Gaz

He's had a bad night.

Joe Cole

Tommy Hilming as his other one. He likes to use.

Joe

No, no.

Gaz

Bellingham.

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The dress.

Gaz

And he's talking about the penalty with Spence. I know, I know. Your fault.

Joe Cole

I agree with him.

Gaz

You agree with him?

Joe

Yeah.

Joe Cole

I don't think that's clear.

Ali McCoist

I disagree. Because what Jed Spence has done, he sold it to. He didn't have to go.

Joe Cole

He didn't have to go.

Ali McCoist

He's not in that position usually. He's already in front of him. He's panicked. I've gone the big leg in front of him and given the referee an opportunity to go across.

Joe Cole

What you've got here is the classic piece of very slow motion that makes it look like he's put his leg out deliberately to get fouled. No, no, no. What he's done there, which every striker would do, and Ali would have done this himself, is if you're going through and whether it's from a wide position, like Jed Spencer or going through on goal, you see it loads of times a season, the foul is always given against. So what you do when the ball. You've got the ball. So then if you get slightly ahead of the defender, you beat him. Then what you do is you get yourself in front of them now if they sold it too much.

Joe

He's got the Lego correct.

Micah Richards

I think it's very nearly a free kick to the defender.

Joe

Yeah, well, I do.

Joe Cole

I'm sticking up for Al because he's had a tough time.

Micah Richards

I think what happens is he's well within his race to try and put himself in front, but he doesn't do it. Cause I don't think he's really at that stage close enough to the ball. I think he's actually obstructing the defenders right away. I know what you're saying about getting your body in front, right and a normal savage.

Gaz

I totally agree with Joe. He knows exactly what he's doing. He's done an amazing run.

Micah Richards

He's been unbelievable and he's thinking, yes,

Gaz

I can't for this year, how can I get a foul? And he's put his legs, wrapped it round. It's not a pelly. He was outstanding when he came on.

Micah Richards

He was, but it wasn't a penal.

Joe Cole

Interesting post interviews. I saw both Thomas Tuchel and Jude Bellingham slightly contrasting views. I don't think we should read too much into it. Tuchel said, we made life very, very difficult for ourselves today. The result is fantastic. We are in the last four. It's amazing, but I'm not happy with the performance in every sense. The commitment is there. But we made life difficult for us in the way we played and how we played. Sloppy, a lot of technical mistakes, not fast enough, not repetitive enough. We were lucky today in the mixed zone. Jude was asked about that and also saw in his post match interview and I think Jude was a little bit shocked by it because I think sometimes, you know, managers quotes are not always put to you in context. So Jude said when he was asked, he said he doesn't know how to play in the heat and conditions. What referencing Tuchel references Tuchel. Yeah. So I think that was Harry Kane actually agreed with Tuchel's comments that they didn't play well. But talking about in Bellingham, this is a classic case, we've talked about it in the last couple of weeks about when managers have a little bit of a dig at when they're not satisfied and you go, well, you try playing out here in 34 degrees centigrade, what it is. And pitches are not great over here. Generally think, you know, you've run yourself ragged for 120 minutes and then you get in, you scored two goals and then somebody tells you that the manager is not that happy with the performance.

Micah Richards

But you know something so What? Right, so what, They've got a different opinion at the end of the game. They managed to get through. That's all that matters. And, you know, some. If you. If you look at it, Thomas. T's right. And so was Al. Right, because England did not play well second half and they kind of lost their way, even the first half after the first hydration break.

Joe Cole

I agree. But what they didn't tell Jude Bellingham was that he also defended his team when. When he was asked about them. You know, the mentality is that. Is it? They didn't play well because of their mentality. He's gone. No, no, the mentality was incredible and that's what got them over the line. So if. If you know what journalists are like, they can stir things up. So they've not given him that bit of the information, of course, so there won't be a problem between them and.

Micah Richards

Nor should there be.

Joe Cole

No, of course not.

Micah Richards

I mean, that kind of sums it up. I mean, that's you looking for things that aren't really there.

Joe

Correct.

Micah Richards

Right. I mean, it's a nonsense, effectively. It's an absolute nonsense. And if the headlines tomorrow are Birlingham disagrees with Tuchel, that's a bigger nonsense.

Joe Cole

Big fallout between the manager.

Micah Richards

That's rummy. You should look a lot. You should be united.

Gaz

But don't you think you should look at the whole game? So if you look at Croatia, they played well in the second half.

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Yeah.

Gaz

And then the next game was Ghana. They didn't play well in that game. The game after that, they made a few changes. It was Panama, then it was Dr. Congo. They've not played well all tournament. But where. I think England have done well. Going to the Azteca at Mexico, when everyone was talking about the altitude, talking about, you know, the heat, the record, the passion and desire, that they showed the courage to get through that then to go into this game. And I picked up England, haven't I? Tactically, I said they've not been good enough, but I think these two last performances, it's not really about how you play, it's about getting over the line. We've talked about Messi. They play for Messi, they get over the line with Messi. Mbappe is a star, Dembele is a star. We have two genuine superstars in our team. Sometimes you're not going to play well. You just need your top players to perform in the big games and they've stepped up in the big moments.

Micah Richards

100%. And knockout football, how you place secondary.

Gaz

Correct.

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Joe Cole

They're in the semi final and now it's Argentina. That is a test. That is a test. You know, we've just watched that game and I mean they're another side that finds a way. They weren't, you know, particularly brilliant in the game, but they've got moments players, obviously they've got the, the maestro himself. But they were helped by a moment of madness from Mbolo. The red card turned, you know, it's 1:1. Anything can happen. And then they're down to 10 men. Was that the. I mean this is this new, this is a new law obviously, that they can now intervene on. They call it bizarrely a mistaken identity. But it was basically a second yellow card.

Gaz

I didn't like it, but I understand it. Yeah, because it was probably was a yellow card. It tried to by a foul. He's basically put his leg next to him and he's dived like.

Joe Cole

Well, he dived actually before he put the leg out. He was already in dreadful dive. I mean it was a bad dive. And I've, you know, I think we all want the game to look at this, the diving situation and eradicate it. Right?

Micah Richards

We can't have it both ways.

Gaz

Yeah.

Micah Richards

It's a red card because it's too yellow. It's as simple as that. Do you feel sympathy for him? Of course. Because the boys made a mistake. Stupidity.

Joe Cole

Heartbroken.

Micah Richards

That was stupidity. It really was.

Gaz

But could we add a common sense in that? Thinking that he never showed any quarter final, the World Cup. Could we just implement a little bit

Joe

of one guy, change the rules? It's the same game. I understand it, but it just felt harsh.

Gaz

He was crying after, wasn't it? It just felt like a big moment. He's let his country down.

Joe Cole

But was he cheating? Was he cheating? You know that is cheating. I'm sorry, you throw yourself on the ground. Look, it irritates us all, doesn't it?

Ali McCoist

Yeah.

Micah Richards

Listen, if he had not get booked, we didn't. But all of a sudden.

Gaz

100%.

Joe Cole

Yeah.

Micah Richards

When I say that's a disgrace.

Gaz

I agree with you.

Ali McCoist

Yeah, absolutely. I think they got it right and yeah, I agree with you. It's horrible for him. He's crying all that. But listen, he's a big boy.

Joe Cole

Obviously they won three, one in the end. But the all important one was the Alvarez.

Joe

Come on, Coins, you talk. Brilliant. Brilliant. Get into cops mode now. Come on, subscribe it to us.

Joe Cole

Hang on a minute. What we need here is the Ally McCoy Spingo car.

Joe

Brilliant.

Micah Richards

I swear to God, I think I'll empty it.

Joe

I think I'll empty it. I'm telling you. I'm telling you that's what I want. Stand by me, see if he comes in. Right.

Micah Richards

We all know he's going to do it.

Joe

And by the way, the keeper away.

Micah Richards

And the keeper knows he's going to do it, but he just meets it. And I'll tell you, we'll watch it again. I'll tell you a watch it just bounces as he meets it. Sweet as a nut. And you can see it. Goalies get no chance. It's one of the strikes of the tournament. Similar. It's not beating the Cape Verde boy though. But what a goal it is. What a goal.

Gaz

You know the Scottish voice. It's just great. Brilliant, isn't it?

Joe

So good. Brilliant. Brilliant.

Joe Cole

I love it.

Joe

Brilliant. Everything you say. I just want. I just want you to talk more. Wanna hear your. Want to hear your own comments and

Gaz

that voice and your everything about it. Can you say what a hit, son.

Joe

I love it.

Micah Richards

What a hit, son.

Joe Cole

Michael, get a room. He's now he's messi. We'll talk about Messi as well, because, I mean, he obviously didn't score the first time in this tournament. He's not scored, but he's there, isn't he? He's so dangerous. But obviously he had an assist for the first goal. Mac Allister's header and his corners are superb. But he's now assisted 10 times in World cup, which is two more than the next best, which is.

Gaz

Is it knocks, not you.

Joe Cole

Is it Maradona?

Micah Richards (continued)

No.

Joe

Assists.

Joe Cole

You're joking, aren't you? I'm not sure I've got one, but best layoffs, maybe.

Ali McCoist

Layoffs.

Joe Cole

Layoffs, yeah. But the thing is, he's 10 different players he's assisted as well over the years. There's names on that list. Crespo's up there, Tevez, Di Maria, Stitto, Aguero's in there, obviously. Enzo Fernandez, Julio Alvarez, and now Macastre as well. So, I mean, it's gonna be. Do you know what, When England play Argentina. I checked this before. It will be the first time that Messi's ever played against England.

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Joe Cole

Apparently, yeah.

Ali McCoist

We'll have to put him to bed.

Gaz

No, I'm not.

Joe

Hey, don't say that.

Ali McCoist

No, we're gonna put him.

Gaz

No, no, we are 88.

Ali McCoist

I'm saying it now. I'm saying it now. We're going to the World Cup Final.

Gaz

No, I agree with you in terms of. You're talking about the runners. You know the energy that England have on that transition.

Joe Cole

They're wily and they're winners.

Ali McCoist

Yeah.

Rob Jones

You know what they are.

Ali McCoist

We've got too much pace for Argentina's strength and we're going to beat them. I feel it in my bones.

Micah Richards

Do you know what England are at the moment? I think I'll give my honest opinion.

Joe Cole

I'll give my answer.

Micah Richards

England.

Joe Cole

That's on the bingo card.

Micah Richards

At this moment in time, England are the third best team left in the tournament. Right.

Joe Cole

Yeah.

Micah Richards

But the good news is you're playing a team that you're better than. I think. Right. I think England are better than Argentina.

Ali McCoist

Yeah.

Micah Richards

I think the slight. I think Spain and France are slightly. Well, France look the best team to tune up for me. So you've got to concentrate your semi final.

Chevrolet Advertiser

Yeah.

Micah Richards

And it's going to be really interesting because defensively, Argentina, I mean, Messi, for example, non existent. He'll just stand up there, Right. Completely different game where if it's Mbappe, stand up there. But Messi can do things in Barbie can't. Blah, blah, blah. Messi as capable as we've seen a hundred times, are just going like that. So that's the thing you have to guard against. And it's the bit of brilliance because let's be honest about it, I thought Switzerland, under 10 men defended really well, magnificently well. They're shaped about it and it took a piece of brilliance from Alvarez to beat them. Messi's got that. But what a game, lads.

Micah Richards (continued)

That's it.

Joe Cole

That's it for this episode of the Rest is Football.

Podcast Host

We'll be back soon with the semi finals and England are in there.

Katie Kaye

Hello and welcome to Doing It Anyway, a brand new series from Goal Hanger. I'm Katie Kaye. I've spent years studying the science and art of confidence, writing books about how we can close the confidence gap between men and women, and talking to editing experts and younger women about how to pass it on. Confidence means taking risks, acknowledging your fears, and, well, doing it anyway. In this series, I'll be talking to psychologists, entrepreneurs and business leaders to unpack how you can rethink challenges and grow your own confidence. We'll talk about how to spot the difference between confidence and competence, how to deal with office politics and stolen credit, and yes, handling rejection and ultimately, how you can become a better leader, teammate, and yes, a better person. Doing It Anyway with Katie K. Every Friday, wherever you get your podcasts.