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Micah Richards

An army hung on her every word.

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Emma Hayes

Hello and welcome to the rest is football. Did you miss us yesterday? Of course you didn't. Well, the big one is upon us. England versus France in the third place playoff. Oh, and of course the final. Alan and Micah are back from Atlanta. Plus we've got Emma Hayes and Joe Hart here in the studio. How are we all?

Micah Richards

Oh great.

Joe Hart

All good, thank you.

Micah Richards

Nice to see you guys. How are you doing?

Joe Hart

Good to be here mate. Good to be here. We're not on set with that one second delay and Mike is just screaming at the tv.

Emma Hayes

Have you been traveling around?

Alan Shearer

I've just come back from Atlanta like these guys. But enjoyed it. I can't say enjoyed it, suffered it, endured it. But incredible stadium in Atlanta.

Emma Hayes

Yeah, not so much the game. Micah. Micah. Once again you've been pictured with famous

Micah Richards

friends and did he post it? Did he?

Emma Hayes

I've seen it.

Micah Richards

Who storms it?

Emma Hayes

I've seen it.

Micah Richards

No, it's what I roll now. I roll in the highest of circles. I roll in the highest of circles now.

Micah Richards (or another guest, possibly a former player)

What did you do? DM them as well?

Micah Richards

Stormsy, I took an old picture.

Joe Hart

Please. Some combo that innit for you?

Micah Richards

Yeah, it was nice.

Micah Richards (or another guest, possibly a former player)

Did he know who you were?

Micah Richards

Of course he did. Bullshit.

Emma Hayes

Alan, you. You got your flight back okay?

Micah Richards (or another guest, possibly a former player)

Well, yeah, just actually it was really weird because I got on the flight and sat there and everyone's coming on, the plane's full. And then the command said, we're delayed, we've overbooked by 14. They downsized the plane the night before and there were 14 people that had sort of checked in. So then they come down, come onto the plane. Right guys? Excuse the American accent.

Joe Hart

Oh my God.

Micah Richards (or another guest, possibly a former player)

Right guys, we need, we need, we need at least 14 people and there's like to get off this plane because they've checked in and it was like no one budged. So they came back and they said, right guys, we're gonna offer $1,000. Hotel, food, alcohol, all free. No one budged. They came back and said, well offer 1,500 thousand.

Micah Richards

I don't know what you're touching.

Micah Richards (or another guest, possibly a former player)

And then no one budged again. You must have experienced on the price.

Micah Richards

You got it.

Carvana Advertiser

Kidding.

Micah Richards (or another guest, possibly a former player)

And then they come back again and said, well, for 2,000 DOL ready. I'm thinking if they go to 2, 5, I'm getting, then no one moves. And then they go to $2,250. And eventually two people get up and say yeah, we'll, we'll swap.

Chevrolet Advertiser

Wow.

Micah Richards (or another guest, possibly a former player)

And it was like, God, I've never, I've never seen this happen before. If that had gone to 2, 5, I was off. I was staying in Atlanta for the night and taking the two and a half grand.

Emma Hayes

Joe, it's good to see you.

Joe Hart

Good to see you too.

Emma Hayes

I'd be nicer if it was better circumstances, but it didn't happen for England.

Joe Hart

Ah, honestly, it was, it was so, it was so close, but yet it was so far. I think the first kind of 55, 60 minutes, it was a ding dong. It was so aggressive. It was, we were all on the edge of our seats not knowing what the referee was involved. Every single player, every single action had a reaction. It was, it was really. And then obviously Gordon scoring that goal and then Messi and his team just got bigger and bigger and England just kind of shrunk and they just felt like, it felt like panic setting. I don't know what you thought.

Alan Shearer

Yeah, I mean I just think once Scaloni made the first chess move after the goal, that for me was the biggest blow because he instantly, not just when Gonzalez come in, he just pushed the team up.

Joe Hart

Yeah.

Alan Shearer

And once you talk about four against the back line, it was more than that. He had six up against and then it was react to what Scaloni was doing. And then of course entertainment, the genius, which is Messi. And I think with the Paul coming on, it allowed Messi to go out wide on the right and that Argentina are a team that are a death by a thousand cuts.

Emma Hayes

I'm going to go into depth shortly, but first I want to read Thomas Tuchel's quotes that he's most recently said. He said, in this moment, this is obviously after they went 1 nil up in this moment, my feeling was no structure in the world could have helped us because actually we were too passive and we were not physical enough. We didn't stop runners arriving in our box. Right after the goal, the momentum swings completely and ball possession drops dramatically. We couldn't find any jewels anymore. That's why we dropped deeper and deeper. And it was never the plan, but it happened. You need to get back on the ball, otherwise you cannot break the pressure and you cannot get the momentum back. And I just want to go on to one more quote. I think ball possession plays an crucial role. It's maybe not in our DNA like it is in Spanish DNA or in Argentinian Brazilian DNA, to take the ball and control the game with the ball.

Micah Richards

Those quotes are nonsense, aren't they? And I've been talking and singing phrases of two all tournament. I basically said, he's been very brave. We was talking about, he should have took Cole Palmer, should have took Foden, should have took Trent. I like the fact that he doesn't listen to anyone and he's directing what he wants to do. But then you hear these quotes and he says, you've got no one who can get on the ball and control the game. Well, Cole Palmer can do that, Foden can do that, and Trent can do that. Cobbie Mainoo can do that. Wharton can do that. So I feel as though he's passing the blame when he should just be taking responsibility.

Joe Hart

I felt like that was a fair appraisal of the game of someone who didn't have the control to change the game. So that was someone who. It felt like he'd watched the game and gone, fucking hell. They couldn't get control. But he's in. Like, his job is to be in the game. I don't know. When you're on the side, his job's to be in the game.

Emma Hayes

Can I ask one point that he said no structure in the world could have helped us?

Alan Shearer

I'm thinking it's like whack a mole from the touchline. And when you got. And I'm sitting there in line with. In the Argentinian half, we score first action, we Go down the other end, square ball, turnover. They transition, get behind Jed. Our next set of actions, behaviours for players was to drop deep. That was not coaching led. Anthony Barry was up, pushing the team to get up, to get out. Then of course, you got the opportunity in hydration breaks. He chose not to change the personnel in a radical way because it would have involved taking off our top two, two players potentially. And I think he was caught in a position where he was constantly reacting to Scaloni's moves. And so I do agree with him that when you've got six pinning your four, it was inevitable we would go into the five. But it was because Scaloni got the first punch every time. That was the difficult part.

Micah Richards (or another guest, possibly a former player)

But do you think then part of the issue was, is that if you're gonna go further and further back, which they did, he makes his changes. But also you've got guys who are totally shot up front. I mean, Harry's legs were gone.

Alan Shearer

That was clear.

Micah Richards (or another guest, possibly a former player)

He would have been far better off bringing someone with some legs on rather than another defender, because at least you've then got an out ball.

Alan Shearer

He's got to live with that and he will, he will be pro team.

Emma Hayes

His whole thing before the tournament is, if we're going to lose, we're going to lose our way. We play aggressive football, we're going to play attacking football. And then he went completely against everything that he.

Alan Shearer

But it's a functional group. We call it functionality in terms of players and profiles that are more, I think, conducive to the French style, that have got top individuals and then you got the two teams that are in the final that are the best collective teams.

Emma Hayes

Yeah, I agree with that.

Alan Shearer

And we, we're not there with that yet. But I will also say we have a tendency to say, oh, that didn't work, tear it up, sack him. He's not elite. Listen, we've been in top semi, final finals over the last six, eight years. We have to ask the question, what's missing? What is missing? And I'm telling you, it felt like there was a mental framework in terms of the players, whether that's whatever. And sometimes it can just be the combination of things that how do you change that?

Emma Hayes

To retreat?

Alan Shearer

You know what? I'm all. So when he talks about DNA, I keep thinking to myself, what is it? If you know this? Spain and their players developed methodologically to play a certain way from the age of eight, ingrained in tune with that Argentina, it's ingrained in them that we play As a collective, as a brotherhood for us. I think there are things we still have to add because we haven't won at senior international level. And I think crossing that line is often the hardest one. And I think when I hope we get into that position, perhaps that will change.

Micah Richards (or another guest, possibly a former player)

But wasn't he brought in to change that, to do that?

Carvana Advertiser

Do you know what?

Micah Richards (or another guest, possibly a former player)

I've seen his words when he took the job were we're more than happy to take that on and not accept defeat, but go with it. He was the one that was brought in to get us through those semi final.

Alan Shearer

I'm not disagreeing you. The two coaches that are in the final are two coaches that have been with their team for extended periods, Del Fuente for many, many years. Galone two cycles you get these players for no more than 15 games a year, something about 35 sessions a year. It is not club football. It takes time and we have to invest in that.

Emma Hayes

I always thought, and you'll remember back, going back a few years, I wanted Lee Carsley and Ashley Cole to carry on because they'd done exactly what De La Fuente had done with Spain.

Alan Shearer

That's why I say we do have DNA Scaloni had done with Argentina.

Emma Hayes

Of course we have DNA. Of course we have. And I think it's quite insulting for him to suggest that we don't have DNA of players that can pass the ball.

Alan Shearer

You know, I'm going to challenge, I'm going to challenge us. At what point did anyone really ask him, what does DNA mean to you? Because we're making assumptions on that. The same way as he challenged the conversation around mentality, the reference I think he's talking about are the very things that are missing from our team.

Emma Hayes

What's our DNA, Joe?

Joe Hart

Well, it's definitely changed over the years, hasn't it? It's definitely changed. It's definitely improved. In terms of. When you look at the players in our national team, our superstars are at Bayern Munich. They're not just English based. We've got Real Madrid. Obviously Trent wasn't picked but Jude was there. So people are willing to travel the globe and be picked by these superstars. But I just think on the Thomas Tuchel point and agree with you, Emma, I think that press conference is so important today because I'm going to reserve my judgment on him until this moment, until he speaks, because it's very difficult, I think on the night to have a fair appraisal. We were in the stadium and I know it's everyone's job to do Certain things raw still. Yeah, but there's no doubt that there was a lot that went on, went there, Ralph. It was emotional, it was bodies on the line. Decisions he definitely wouldn't have made in hindsight, of course he wouldn't. But I think it's really important how he interviews today.

Alan Shearer

Yeah, I agree with you there for

Joe Hart

his future, for how he interviews today, because if he tries to justify how it went, then we might have a problem.

Emma Hayes

I think one perhaps be clear, I think nobody, nobody has an issue with the player's commitment. I think their socks.

Micah Richards

No, it was brilliant. Absolutely Brazilian.

Alan Shearer

And you guys know more than ever, you know than anyone how difficult that can be and how challenging that is. And we, we're talking about margins here, that this, the country has been able to get to the latter stages. We just need to learn how.

Micah Richards (or another guest, possibly a former player)

I think if you've got like, like 96 and like 98 tournaments that I played in, if you as a player come out of a tournament and say, we've given our very best, we've worked our nuts off for six or seven weeks and then I think that's more than acceptable. And I think that's the case with, with, with all of them.

Joe Hart

Well, just. I did an interview quite soon after for the radio and my back went up immediately because how disappointed they're going to be. Were they the right changes? And I was thinking, are we going to give any respect to the team that's beat us here? Well, no, they're great because we're talking about the teams with World cup medals, something that we haven't achieved. They've won Copa America's galore, they've got the greatest player ever on the planet. I'm not saying that we should bow down to them, but let's not, let's calm down when we're looking for blame here. And sometimes you got to credit the fact that it was a hell of a ding dong. And then when the big moments came, Argentina got bigger and we struggled.

Micah Richards

But can I just add to that though, because you're a manager, Emma and I always like to get in the. You know your thoughts and what you're thinking on the sideline. So you mentioned Scaloni and you mentioned Tuchel. Tuchel's supposed to be an elite manager, isn't he? So surely he should be proactive rather than reactive.

Alan Shearer

Listen, they were, I was watching the benches. Instantly Scaloni went concede a goal, front foot. We tried to get our players on the pitch. It wasn't, you could see it, there was an attempt by the coaching staff to do it. The question I'd ask is, would you do anything differently again?

Micah Richards

What would you have done? What would you have done?

Alan Shearer

Truthfully?

Micah Richards

Differently? This is what we want to know.

Alan Shearer

I think we needed fresh legs.

Micah Richards

Correct.

Alan Shearer

Especially in the front areas. But the challenge of all of those things is because Messi had peeled out wide. Now you're going to ask a forward player to deal with the overload that they've got there. It was the fact that they'd created that situation. So I think he did deal with that. But Scaloni said, we've got nothing coming on your right hand side. We'll take our left back out. Then it pinned us even further. So I think. I don't want to say it's shit or bust in those moments, but the hydration bake. I think if he had it again, he might do something differently again. And that might involve taking some of the front players off.

Emma Hayes

Joe, can I ask you about Pickford in goal? He's got a bit of stick for the first goal and it's been exacerbated by the fact that Bellingham was caught saying it was in the middle of the goal. Goalkeeper's thoughts, please. Because I think he was pretty unsighted,

Joe Hart

even though it was so the reason why a lot of people, now that Jude's shown the world, but it wasn't.

Emma Hayes

You've had the hope with him for that.

Joe Hart

I'll tell you what, one thing that I struggled with as a teammate mixed with just, I'm a calm, I'm a nice guy, I want everyone to do well. I want everyone to do well. But there were moments as a goalkeeper and I didn't realise I had this in me. But when I was very young, someone in a League two game for Shrewsbury Town, one of the centre halves, I didn't come for a cross. Maybe I should have say to me, I'm talking to you as me come for the fucking cross. I'll go, absolutely no problem. When someone starts going like this to the crowd, red mist, I'll fight anyone, because that's not a teammate, in my opinion. Now, I did not love what happened there. I get it's emotional, I get Jude wears his heart on his sleeve, but when it comes to moments like that, I'd rather one of my teammates stand over me and say, save the fucking ball, than gesticulate to the crowd. Well, it's who he is and it was what makes him who he is. But that's not helping anyone because that actual action, because now we want the perfect world where Jordan Pickford's standing in the middle of the goal and anything in the corners he can get to. There was five, six, seven bodies that he's trying to.

Alan Shearer

That's my point about the collective. Argentina can see. There's no fingers pointing. It's the collective approach to get up.

Joe Hart

Honestly, Emma, that made my chest tight after the game because I'm with Jude for the cavalier way that he brings it on. But you can't have 11 of those in the team. I've said that. And you know, I would have struggled.

Micah Richards

Yeah. It's a little bit hard, though, because we've had moments together where we've played together. And the frustration in the moment he. Throw up your hands. I remember you once turning to me and said, don't you. You know what I mean? Don't you effing do that to me. But we know how Jude is. Yeah, yeah, we know he's a total winner. He didn't need to do it because he's sort of hanging his mate out to dry a little bit. But it's just in that moment when you want to win something so much. I just remember throwing my hands up and you absolutely saw him.

Emma Hayes

I suspect he didn't do it for the count.

Joe Hart

No, he didn't.

Emma Hayes

He's done it just out of exasperation.

Joe Hart

What I'm saying is, I'm not saying he's wrong. No, I'm not saying Jude's wrong. He's free to do whatever we want. But if you want my opinion of how that would have made me feel and who's to say I'm right? Who's to say Jordan's right if he wouldn't have.

Alan Shearer

I always say to players with situations like that, you have to ask yourself the question, is it helping the team?

Joe Hart

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Alan Shearer

And if it's not, then think differently or behave differently.

Emma Hayes

I think the missed opportunity in the game was the commercial break. I like to call them that, rather, was the commercial break. He had three minutes there and he could already see we were back, back, back. And he didn't choose to make a change at that point. He latterly brought on, obviously, he might

Alan Shearer

very well have made a tactical change, but being able to action it is what didn't happen. If that was the case, like, I agree, it'd be interesting to see his.

Joe Hart

I think it's really important because sometimes

Alan Shearer

you don't have to make personnel changes to make tactical changes. But for whatever reason, for me sitting there live, it felt like we were Just retreating, even against the wishes of the manager.

Micah Richards

Let's have it right, though. He got his tactics wrong, didn't he? He got his tactics wrong. I was a fan of him. I was giving him the big build up. This is why we want Tuchel. He'll make in game substitutions.

Emma Hayes

I mean, Scaloni himself, Scaloni himself said he was really surprised at what he did and he smelled blood.

Micah Richards

Take some responsibility. You got it wrong, you move on. You look at where you could improve and then go as a team to move on.

Joe Hart

That's why today's important mix. Because I think that will.

Emma Hayes

I think he needs to own it today, own it myself, say I got it wrong.

Joe Hart

Even just say I got caught up in the moment.

Emma Hayes

Everyone makes mistakes.

Joe Hart

Or if they're as strong a team as he's talking about, I think he's able to say, as Emma's saying, I didn't ask the boys to do that. That's what happened. So that's what we went. Because they're on the pitch and there's only so much I can do. But I want to know whether it was a him decision, the boys decision, because I'm not going to hold it against them because they were under siege and they were mentally scrambled and it's

Alan Shearer

not for a lack of trying.

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Alan Shearer

The issue is the execution piece and that's why I talk about mental frameworks, because if you're instantly thinking, oh, they've broken, we've just conceded a chance. Let's sit a little bit lower. You don't even always say it out loud. It's your body language is the taking two steps backwards. All of those things will happen in life.

Joe Hart

I think England just missed one man on the pitch. Just being able to stand up and just say from that centre half or whatever position, just say, harry, fuck off.

Emma Hayes

Stay up, stay up, stay up.

Joe Hart

He comes back because he's so on his. And I think Harry in that moment would need someone to say that and go, you're right. Just someone take hold of the game, whatever that may be. They don't even have to be the best player, just someone just moving around.

Emma Hayes

What I've learned over the years, it's quite hard to win a world.

Kati Kaye

Hello and welcome to Doing It Anyway, a brand new series from Goal Hanger. I'm Kati Kaye. I've spent years studying the science and art of confidence, writing books about how we can close the confidence gap between men and women, and talking to experts and younger women about how to pass it on. Confidence means taking risks, acknowledging your fears and well, well, doing it anyway. In this series, I'll be talking to psychologists, entrepreneurs and business leaders to unpack how you can rethink challenges and grow your own confidence. We'll talk about how to spot the difference between confidence and competence, how to deal with office politics and stolen credit, and yes, handling rejection and ultimately how you can become a better leader, teammate and yes, a better person. Doing it anyway with Katie K. Every Friday, wherever you get your podcasts,

Emma Hayes

I want to ask Emma and Joe, both of you, about the final because Micah and Alan will be here tomorrow. We're going to do our preview, but as you're here today, I'd love to get your take on what should be a fascinating final.

Alan Shearer

The best two collective teams in the world. One with a collective approach, football wise, that has been enshrined, ingrained from babies to a team that has the most incredible brotherhood. They are warriors. They come together as a collective. They showed it in an adverse situation. I'm a huge fan of which one

Emma Hayes

wins, Emma, which one comes out on top.

Alan Shearer

Tough to call, I think. While I think, I think Spain. They've been my tip the whole time. I'm put in Spain there. But we talk about England the other night, forgetting, as Joe said, the genius that is Messi. And you cannot rule them out. In fact, they get better when they go behind. But Spain will kill them by not giving them the ball. That's the difference.

Emma Hayes

Yeah.

Joe Hart

Yeah, I think it's going to be. It's hard to put the other night behind us and it's hard to not feel any kind of anything towards Argentina, but if I'm going to completely numb myself as a neutral, I'm so excited for this game and I'm so excited to see how Argentina can ruin the perfect football of Spain. And I'm gonna go. I think it's gonna be. I'm go the other way.

Alan Shearer

You know what? Fair enough.

Joe Hart

I think they're gonna punch the life out of each other. Very similar. And when it comes to those big moments, I was. Lionel Messi is phenomenal. Like the level that he's at and to see what he did the other night. Very nice to see what he did the other night in the cauldron when everyone else is emotional, the guy's heart rate didn't get above the 60. It was just super calm. And he won't take offence to Spain having the ball. I'm really excited.

Emma Hayes

Never thought I'd see him whipping in balls with his right foot.

Joe Hart

Do you know What I mean, but that's what the game needed.

Emma Hayes

Keeping that one under.

Joe Hart

That's what the game needed. So that's what he did. And that's just why he's so good.

Emma Hayes

I mean, he is extraordinary.

Alan Shearer

It's the way the team worked to service him, though, that's the most impressive part. That's why I talk about the collective, because they do whatever they can to put their messiah in a position to win.

Emma Hayes

You would, wouldn't you, if you.

Alan Shearer

DePaul came on the pitch and the first thing he did is he gestured. He gestured to his teammates. He went, give me the ball. And he looked at Messi and he went, I'm giving you the ball. And instantly the game, just as.

Emma Hayes

As a coach, I mean, people have tried for two decades and not succeeded. How do you stop him? How do you deal with him? How does Spain manage him tomorrow?

Alan Shearer

A collective approach.

Emma Hayes

Keep the ball.

Alan Shearer

A collective approach. The question is, how are Argentina going to set up against Spain? Spain have got two centre halves that are comfortable in possession. The best way to do it is to go player for player and force Spain into going long. But I don't think they're going to have the front players to be able to do that. I think the difference with Spain is if Spain score, Spain won't give Argentina the ball. That's what I think the difference will be.

Emma Hayes

Do you both think Spain or. When you stick with them, I'm going

Joe Hart

to go with Argentina.

Emma Hayes

Argentina.

Joe Hart

I do, I do. I think there's something special about it.

Emma Hayes

50.

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50.

Emma Hayes

But I tip Spain at the something.

Micah Richards

Did you?

Micah Richards (or another guest, possibly a former player)

You just thought he'd drop that in?

Micah Richards

So did I. Yeah.

Emma Hayes

Who did I anyway?