Joe Cole

Foreign.

Gary Neville

Hello and welcome to the rest is football. Well, we've been here before. We'll probably be here again. England are out of the World Cup. They'll play the third and fourth place playoff on Saturday and Argentina go to the final where they'll meet Spain. I'll discuss all of that with Joe Cole, Poland, Patrick Vieira, Ali McCoist and of course Micah and Alan. And if you prefer to watch the show, it's available on Netflix. Carl, we've been here before, but this one seemed really, really hard to take.

Joe Cole

Yes, it was deflating, weren't it? Because listen, we've been here before. I think it's the same problems, guys. I think it's a case of if you. Whoever, whoever takes England on and gets it done, you have to get over the hurdle where the fear of failure, it just paralyzes England teams. 12% possession after we scored the goal. And that just tells you that there's something. It's a mindset thing. We could talk about tactics, we could talk about substitutions and everything like that. It comes from the manager ultimately. And too many times there's like a panic that sets in when we. We're nearly there and we got it and we just trip off our own feet. We do. And it is just, it's heartbreaking because, you know, I really believe today, I really believe. I thought we'd have too much pace

Gary Neville

on the counter, but you've got to believe in yourselves. And the thing as soon as you go, we went to goal up and yes, we've seen it before, they sat deep, but the substitutes, that he made that even deeper. He took Gordon off and obviously Kons are on. He turns to a five at the back. Then he brings Dan Burt and you just basically going, right, okay, we're going to play a really low block against a team, against a team that are very good at playing against a low block because they've got Messi.

Micah Richards

Right.

Gary Neville

So what they don't offer a threat is if you play a high line and play up because they've got no threat behind. It made zero sense to me. I think tactically it was astonishing, to be perfectly honest. I mean, let's get a neutral. Very well. Not a neutral perspective when it comes to Ali.

Alan Shearer

I'll do my best. I can give you my best.

Gary Neville

I'm pleased for you. The subs was. Was a negative move, wasn't it? It's easy in hindsight. I think we all sat there watching the game saying exactly the same thing.

Patrick Vieira

I think there's always a Different way of watching the game because you know as a French, when you look at the way the French play yesterday where they didn't turn up at all, we get battered by Spain from the start to the end. And you look at the games of England today, I think they were into the game. I think when I was watching the game I saw really like two big teams playing for the final and of course England was scoring the first goal and then losing the games 2:1. And considering this two late goals, you're looking at the changes that Thomas make. And by the way, I'm a big fan of Thomas but I think he get it wrong and I think when I look at his interview after the games, he knows that he make a mistake and I'm sure that if he review the game and he had to play the game again, he will not going to make the same changes because that impacted. No, but what I mean that impacted the result at the end. And of course, yes, he was quite 5, 4 back 5 for midfielder, no space of course for Messi because he closed the central area. But Messi went on the right hand side and he became even more dangerous. So the frustration, I can understand the

Gary Neville

frustration, yeah, a lot of frustration. I would say I found it absolutely unfathomable that you've got as a tactic. You sit everyone deep, you've got a plan against the greatest player that's ever playing football. And I think he's just cementing that gap game after game after game. Most goals in the World cup, most assists in the World cup and he moves to the right and you play in the back five and you still don't go get tight to him, just put someone on him. He had so much space, he just whipped ball after ball after ball into the box.

Alan Shearer

The Mexico game, right, who gets sent off? You get out of 10 men, who is it?

Gary Neville

Konza.

Alan Shearer

Right, Konza gets sent out.

Gary Neville

Konza. Konza got centre.

Alan Shearer

So I think it's understandable.

Gary Neville

More, it's more acceptable if you've got 10 men. Yes, correct.

Alan Shearer

Now you are with the substitutions that Thomas took and I'm a party. I used to think he's a really clever man and a good coach. I do. But I think you get it wrong. Got it absolutely wrong. The substitutions that he made. Gary, do one thing, invite the opposition onto you. That's the first thing it does, it invites the opposition onto you. And because you're defending so deep, you can't get out. Harry Kane is brilliant, but he's not a counter attack centre. Forward that you can spin over the top. I said to Joe during the game and I said to Pate, and we're all experts, of course we are. But during the game, the substitution I'd have made, I'd have probably put Rashford through the middle, maybe taking Harry Kane off because he can get you in behind, he can get you up the pitch, because defensively you're just inviting them onto you and the big difference. And I even. I saw it when Argentina scored their second goal. Gary. Right, naturally, the momentum with England is to score, but Argentina's approach to defending was 100% different to England's approach. They didn't set back, they pressed you. They were pressing your centre backs and pressing people in wide areas higher up the pitch. Whereas England just sat back and invited crosses into the box. And you've got four big lads, right, who will win the majority of the headers. But when you look at the pace of the crosses that we're putting into the box, forget MacAllister at the post with Heather Jordan Pickford's made a brilliant save. It's not as if they have any chances.

Gary Neville

They battered England after that and it made no. Made no sense to me. But he said after the Croatia game, he said, if we lose, we'll lose our way by playing aggressive, attacking football. He went totally against that, didn't he, Joe?

Joe Cole

Yeah, he did. Absolutely. Absolutely. I think they said there's something like, I agree with everything Ali said. We sat next to each other and we both said the same, I'd take Harry Kane off and it would sound insane. And I think, no fear of failure. I think Thomas Tuchel probably thought, you're looking at that game, you're dropping off. Argentina are at it, right? You don't have to go to a back five where you stick with a back four. But they're at it, right? You still have to press them. You still need an outlet, right? Harry Kane's your best player. And I think Thomas Tugel thought, I can't take him off, I can't take him off. I can't take him off. You have to take him off, right? And then I love Harry Kane. I think he's the greatest centre forward of all time. But in the way, the rhythm of the game, you've got to react with a positive substitution and go, right, we need to relieve the pressure in a valve. We need someone who can spin and get it out, who can hold up Marcus or Ollie Watkins, anyone like that. But I think we can't take Heron cards. We'll Wait another five minutes. Don't wait.

Gary Neville

Do it.

Joe Cole

Be positive.

Alan Shearer

See, the thing is real. As soon as you make those substitutions, that's your hands tied.

Gary Neville

Well, that's it.

Alan Shearer

If they equalise, you lose that goal, you've nowhere to go.

Gary Neville

Exactly.

Alan Shearer

And that's what happened.

Patrick Vieira

Sorry, Gary. But the biggest question is, do you really think is the tactical side of the games? Yes, can impact the result. But there is as well the lack of identity of the England team.

Gary Neville

We're not playing our own game. I think it's mentality, playing their own game.

Patrick Vieira

I don't know if it's a mentality because when you're looking at Spain and you're looking at Argentina today, those big nation who used to win. I was quite really impressed by how Spain play against France. I was really impressed. But they have this kind of identity. They will play the same way. Winning, losing. And when you look at England, they don't have that.

Gary Neville

We suddenly change after you score a goal. It seems like the wrong. The other thing I would say, Patrick, is that there's a lot of teams played a low block in this tournament. But when England have played a low block, we seem to concede a lot of chances. Why do you think that is?

Patrick Vieira

Because the England way of playing the game is in the front foot. You have to go to press, you have to play with the intensity. First ball, second ball. But there is always a rhythm. And England players are not set to defend inside a box. It's not Italy. And I think the second goal they concede. You had the back five or majority of them are 180, 190 big guys, big guys like yourself. But they concede on crosses.

Gary Neville

Because Messi's accuracy is so amazing.

Patrick Vieira

Of course it's amazing. But as well there's like the way you defend inside the box. If it was an Italian team, Latero will not going to be by himself. They will be a players and he will not going to give him a chance to jump and to take that chance. So the approach in the last 10 minutes, it doesn't represent England. I believe.

Gary Neville

I believe that there's a lot of noise outside. Argentinian fans are arriving. They'll be here for the final.

Alan Shearer

Make one for some team.

Gary Neville

I mean, I think it's. It's also important to say well played Argentina. I mean, they came for. They were so gutsy. Yes, they do. You know all that stuff in the first half, lots of. But they absolutely outplayed England in that last half an hour. And I think they were worthy of success. Messi astounds me. Right. Everyone knows I've whacked lyrical about Messi for two decades. I've enjoyed his play and it's the first time he's played against England and again was the difference. But it was inexplicable to me that they didn't try and get tight to the one player that can destroy you. But you know, Argentina, I mean, you've got to give credit where it's due. You really have.

Joe Cole

Absolutely, absolutely. This team is such a unique team because they've got the greatest footballer of all time. They've got fantastic, really fantastic players that can put their, put their egos aside and give themselves to the. And you have to credit Scaloni for building this. They've won three tournaments in a row and are in the final again. If they do that, this team could go down as the greatest team of all time. I think that's their. Well, they can talk about the Brazilian

Gary Neville

teams of the seventies, not necessarily individually,

Joe Cole

but as a collective gas. And you see the way that they started the game. You see the way the passion and that pride and that feeling that they have playing for their country. The pool is playing Inter Miami, in all due respect, he's playing in the mls. And the MLS at the moment is, you know, it's okay for Messi at the back end of his career, but he's not sharp. He's not like he's playing in the European leagues where he's sharp. He turns off Argentina. It could arguably be one of the best midfielders in the tournament. You know, Mac Allister had a difficult season, but when they come together, leading. I've never seen a team that have got this balance and this sort of like just a cohesion where resilience. Resilience and everything. And what was brilliant about them when they were chasing the goal and you know, you could be forgiven thinking, shit, 15 minutes to go. Oh, we've been in that position. You're like. And then you'll sling a stupid ball into the box and then it releases the pressure. No, they're waiting, they're waiting. Well, where's Messi? Where's Messi? And he's finding the space and then they eventually get it to him and then the party starts.

Katie Kaye

Hello and welcome to Doing It Anyway, a brand new series from Goal Hanger. I'm Katie Kaye. I've spent years studying the science and art of confidence, writing books about how we can close the confidence gap between men and women, and talking to experts and younger women about how to pass it on. Confidence means taking risks, acknowledging your fears, and, well, doing it anyway. In this series, I'll be talking to psychologists, entrepreneurs and business leaders to unpack how you can rethink challenges and grow your own confidence. We'll talk about how to spot the difference between confidence and competence, how to deal with office politics and stolen credit, and yes, handling rejection and ultimately, how you can become a better leader, teammate, and, yes, a better person. Doing it anyway with Katie K every Friday, wherever you get your podcasts.

Gary Neville

Alan, Micah, you were at the stadium. Tell me your thoughts on the match.

Alan Smith

Very frustrating, very annoyed, all of those things because we had a great opportunity. We go one nil up and then straight away you can see. And we've both played in these games before, where I get it, when you then sit back and try and defend, it's. It sort of happens without you even knowing. But then I just thought his substitutions were really strange in terms of inviting pressure on, going with six defenders on the pitch and finding it impossible to have a way out because all we did was just sit back and Harry had to come back and try and defend. We just didn't have an out ball. And that was the frustrating thing when you've got that many players back defensively then to not close Messi down or close Fernandez down when he's having the shot. I mean, he must have had five or six shots anyway to find his radar. So, yeah, it was, it was a really frustrating evening after, after being so promising with holding him in the first half and then getting that, that, that goal and the way they did because we're crying out for width. We're crying out for putting balls into the box early. Rodgers did that and it was a brilliant finish from, from Anthony Gordon for him to get on the end of it. But then after that, it just, Everything was just downhill after that. Micah?

Micah Richards

Yeah, I totally agree with everything that you said. But I did say to you guys, I saw this coming. I saw the signs against Croatia, the drop deep, conceded a goal exactly the same fashion. Then you go on to the Ghana game. It wasn't brilliant. Panama, Dr. Congo. But I saw something within this team when they went to the Azteca against Mexico. They had a nastiness about them. They had a spirit about them that they got overly in that game. I thought, okay, this is a different England. And then the Norway game, yes, didn't play brilliantly well, but they had that grit and determination going in today's game. I thought the first half, I thought England were brilliant. Yes, not in terms of creating a great deal, but being up for the fight, know exactly what the game needed. They was trying to, you said before with Argentina, they was going to use mind games and tricks, trying to get into Jude's head. And then the second half after we scored the goal, whether people want to blame the players or not, in terms of the way they sat really deep, this one is on the manager and I praise the manager so much in terms of him not caring what we say as pundits and being decisive in what he wants to do, making subs at the right time. Today he got it wrong and he has to accept that because, like, Al's completely right in what he's saying. There was too deep. As soon as we scored that goal, we, we had no outlet. We're looking at Kane, we're looking for energy. Kane was absolutely knackered in the game. It was crying out for Ollie Watkins, someone who could run in behind, get us up the pitch. And Al, like you said, in terms of when they went to the five, and this is important, this when you play a four at the back and you're playing four, three, three. But Gordon in the first half was doing so much work with Spencer, the distances were perfect, absolutely perfect. When you go to then a five and you go flat five then ahead of him, O'Reilly was sort of playing midfield, inside left position, but wasn't giving Spence a backup because they had an extra defender. So what that allowed is Messi. He was scanning the game, his football iq, absolute genius came into the game and said, this is where the space is. No one's coming to get the ball, coming to tackle me when I get the ball. So then I'm just going to operate there. And that's what happened.

Alan Smith

I, I, I also think, guys, is that what, what's happened in previous games, Mexico and Norway, in terms of him going five at the back, bringing Dan Byrne on, bringing the defenders on and that working, I think that's gone against us today because I, I think he thinks that it's worked then. So I'm going to do it again. But, and it's a huge but. You've got like 30 or 35 minutes to hang on and basically when you go into five at the back, that's what he basically said to Argentina. We're going to try and hang on here in the hope that you put balls into the box like Norway did, like Mexico did. And we're just going to clear it away for fun. They did it in those two games. They couldn't do it today because Argentina were too street wise.

Micah Richards

Yeah. But the difference was the quality.

Alan Smith

Yeah, yeah.

Micah Richards

Messy. We talked about moments. You asked me the other day, how do you stop Messi? It's actually at times impossible because when you're in the defensive line and you're working as a unit, you're going up and. And back together and he just go stands out on. On the right wing.

Alan Smith

How.

Micah Richards

How on God's earth do you cater for. For what he can do?

Alan Smith

I think we're all. I think we're all frustrated, guys, because I said during commentary is that Thomas Tuchel was brought in to get us through semifinals and then win us finals because Gareth the Great, the great thing about what Gareth did is that he got us that far. And we said, okay, well, the next step is to go on and win it. So Thomas was brought in for moments like this and moments in finals to win us. They said, yeah. It feels as if his substitutions that worked in every game basically up until now have cost us today.

Alan Shearer

Yeah.

Gary Neville

I think, Mike, you're really absolutely spot on with the fact that Messi works out where the space is. But I would say if you've got six defenders in the team, you can afford to put one of them on his toes and just stand with him wherever he is on the pitch. So it would still be difficult. But he had so much space just to cross it. To cross it, to cross it. Why didn't he do that?

Micah Richards

Yeah, but the genius about Messi and Al wants to come in after me. But in terms of. Look at the Fernandez goal. What did he do? He drew players in towards him. And then where is the space? So if you want to go man v man against him, it will make you look stupid. His touch and technique, so great. Okay, everyone's going to come towards Messi. So what does that look? It leaves space in the middle of the pitch and we talk about Messi. It's not just what he does. He thinks about the game where. Where can I go to leave space for other players? And the goal, it was just perfect. He's phenomenal. He's unbelievable. Watching him live as well, and everyone talks about him walking, walking, walking. It doesn't matter. He's walking. He comes alive when the ball comes to his feet. Incredible.

Gary Neville

He is an extra. I mean, he is truly extraordinary. I mean, I've watched him for two decades. I've had people go, oh, you love him too much. I love him too, because he's given me so much joy. He gave me no joy tonight. Obviously, we were on the receiving end. But it was interesting that after the game, Scaloni said the following. The opponent doubted themselves a bit. We smelt blood and went for it. We all felt it and I think we all felt it watching. I mean, this is easy to say now, but I guarantee that you two, you did it in the game. Alan and Mike, are you watching?

Alan Shearer

We.

Gary Neville

We were all watching it on the TV in here and all of us were saying exactly the same thing. We're just basically giving. I think the best example of this is when Argentina went ahead. They didn't just sit back and low block. Yes, obviously England pushed a bit more than they did, but they also pressed us high and they went and tried to play high up the pitch.

Alan Smith

There's a reason why they're the world champions. They might not be as good now as they were four years ago, but I think their heart's bigger and they understand what it means to them and how much it means to them. And there's been times in this tournament where we've all sat and watched them and thought, oh, goodness me, they're under the Kosh now. But somehow, because of their belief and obviously how good they are, they found a way to win. I mean, go back to the Egypt game when they were under huge pressure. They came back from that tonight. They were under huge pressure. They came back. I thought the managers Scaloni substitutions were brilliant. Bringing on De Paul, bringing on Lautaro Martinez when he got the goal. So there's no doubt their substitutes worked and ours didn't.

Gary Neville

I've got a couple of quotes that I want to read to you both from Thomas Tuchel. One of them is from when he first took the job. And then there's one after the game he said they were more afraid to drop out of the tournament than having the excitement and hunger to win. That's what he was talking about. Southgates England after the game today, he said, we keep going on with the contract until the home Euros. I'm looking forward to that. Even though right now it's difficult to look that far ahead. He sort of went against his own

Joe Cole

ethos in a way.

Alan Smith

Well, he better get his tin hat on because he's going to get a lot of criticism, isn't he? I mean, the criticism has already started because of. And you have to accept that. And he has to accept it that his. His substitutions today in this game didn't work and it's backfired for. For England. So he's going to get a lot of Criticism. Criticism for that. And you're right, that goes against what he sort of said in terms of England hanging on. And the frustrating thing is, I would have got it if there was five or ten minutes left. Totally. But there was like, I don't know, 30 or 35 minutes left that they had to hang on for. And that was never gonna happen, because when you win the ball, which England were doing, you win it, you kick it straight back out. There's no one there because everyone's defending and it just comes straight back at you. Yeah. When you've got the quality of Argentina, the likelihood is you're going to get punished. And, yeah, that's why it's so hard to take, because we got ourselves into such a brilliant position.

Micah Richards

You know what's so frustrating now? You know, having watched Spain, France and the way they control the tempo, there's more than one way to skin a cat, isn't there? And what we do as a team, we want to work on the transition. It works in the wide areas. But essentially, when Argentina nullified that, we didn't have a plan. Our plan B was to go deep. You need people on the ball. I use the word bravery all the time. And we've got some top midfielders. And I've said it from the start, I believe we've got three eights in there with Rice, Anderson and Bellingham. Bellingham has been outstanding, but their main attributes is running with the ball, arriving late, driving from deep areas. But when you need someone to put the foot on the ball. So all the defensive stuff, I thought Anderson was brilliant tackling, he was up and down aggressive. But when Argentina started smelling that the game could go in their direction, that's when you need your midfielders to just put your foot on the ball, give your defence a little bit of a breather. Your strikers, too. We had no outboard whatsoever, was camped too deep and ultimately we didn't have the quality to deal with it.

Gary Neville

I think you have to say as well, well played, Argentina. I mean, they.

Alan Smith

Yes, absolutely.

Gary Neville

They're so gutsy. I mean, yes, you know, the first half was such an aggressive 45 minutes of football. There wasn't much football, but it was. I found it fascinating that. That first half, England came out in the second half to get the lead and then for everything else that we discussed, but boy, they're. Boy, they're so, so gutsy, ballsy.

Alan Smith

They just make it really, really difficult. I mean, they just made it into a scrap. Every time an England player got the ball, it was a foul. And that was their plan. Fine, I get that. I understand that. But yeah, you've got to, you have to say, guys, the best team won. They hit the woodwork a couple of times. MacAllister, Mr. Sitter with a header, hit the post, which, which we got away with. But second half, they were much the better team, even though we took the

Micah Richards

lead and they have Messi. Yeah, that was a difference. We've talked about moments in this tournament, haven't we, in terms of Kane and Bellingham. It was going to be one of those games. Messi turned up, didn't he? And we couldn't deal with it.

Gary Neville

I mean, it's remarkable, isn't it? He's a 39 year old. He's now leading the Golden Boot because he got two assists, so he's level with Mbappe, but he's got four assists now, so that takes him ahead in that. I honestly, genuinely still think that he's the best player in world football at 39. I mean, for fuck's sake. How, How. That's it for this episode of the rest Is football not the way we wanted it to end? But there's always the third place playoff. We'll be back in a couple of days. Goodbye.