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Gary Lineker

Hello, and welcome to the Rest Is Football. On today's show, we'll be previewing both semi finals. England against Argentina and France against Spain. I'm joined by Joe Cole, Micah Richards, Alan Shearer and. And Mikel Jonobi as well. And don't forget, if you prefer to watch the show, it's available on Netflix every day. That's it for this episode of the Rest Is Football. The next time we'll be with you. Well, it'll be after England have played Argentina. Let's hope for some good news.

Joe Cole

Bye.

Gary Lineker

I think this promises to be one hell of a game. Mikel, you've got the best defence in the tournament in terms of goals conceded, and I think you've got the best attack in the tournament. Can Spain deal with that French attack?

Mikel Arteta

I think they can. How do they do that? Number one? They have to make sure they. But that's the way Spain play, obviously. They take the ball away from you. They control the game. That's how they've played. I know a lot of people talk about their defense. They've only considered one goal so far in this tournament. Well, if you have most of the ball, you know, they just. You're not going to concede. And also, the way they. Once they lose the ball, the way they counter, press. I know we haven't talked about it so much. The way they press, they press high. They don't let you dictate the game. Once they lose the ball, it's like a bunch of them. They go, they chase you and they make sure they recover the ball. I think that's the only way they can deal with this French team. But wow, what a team they have, don't they, the French? Some individual qualities. Olise has been playing really well. Kylian Mbappe. I just hope he can be able to get off the mark, you know, Olise hasn't scored a goal yet. He's got three chances, you know, but hasn't scored a goal yet. But if you talk about a team, a squad with depth, you have to talk about France. You know, you look at the players they have on the pitch, the players they have on the bench, players that can come on and change the game. It's just incredible to watch.

Gary Lineker

Alan, how important will Rodri be? Because he does appear to be back to Rodri that we've been talking about.

Alan Shearer

Yeah, we sort of looked at him for City dinner. It wasn't quite what we saw beforehand, but as the tournament's gone on, I think he's got better and better and better and he's back to his very, very best.

Micah Richards

I just think after the injury, he had acl, didn't he? And it took him a while to get back up to speed, but in terms of controlling the game, he's been the best at the tournament. I feel as though you're a big Pedri fan. I'm a big Vattini fan. We talked about that as well on the show. But Rodri's been the best.

Gary Lineker

Can I ask you, Micah, because Spain like to crowd the midfield a little bit, and at the minute France are only really playing two midfield players, is there a chance that they might switch tactics a little bit to cope with being outnumbered in midfield?

Micah Richards

No, I don't think so. I think France are so good they'll stick to their plan. Don't forget Alice sort of got the free role in there as well. Yes, France have had a lot of the ball, but defensive work, he can do it if need be. I feel like it's going to be such an interesting game because I did the Spain Belgian game and Spain, although in terms of they've only conceded one, they did concede a lot of chances. Remember the ball coming for the Catalari, not that much movement in the box and he scores a goal. I just feel as though France are going to have too much firepower. And Spain were my favorites before because the way they dictate the play, oh, Y's not being the level we all expected. So I think it'll be a tough game, but I think France maybe just got the edge.

Gary Lineker

Joe, I think Spain will probably have the most possession in the game. Can they have enough possession to stop France?

Joe Cole

It's a rhythm game. I actually think Deschamps will consider putting an extra midfielder in, because I think over the course of 120 minutes, he'll expect one of his front three, all of his front threes, to have moments where they're going to do some magic. But what you've got to do is you can't let Spain get the rhythm and the routine. Every game they played at this World cup, they've dominated possession. So I think he might think to himself, maybe Kone Trisha may. Well, it's one of the front four, isn't it? So it won't be Dembele or Mbappe or Alise.

Micah Richards

It could be duet. It could be duet or Barcolo, you

Joe Cole

know, just to go, like. Because they don't need to win the game in the first 30 minutes. But where do you go? If you go all four of them and you go a goal down, where do you go? And so much of what Spain do is rhythm and you have to break that and you need a couple of enforcers.

Gary Lineker

The only thing is there that that that changes the way France played and it's really worked for them. So it's not to imagine making a massive change.

Micah Richards

I agree with that.

Alan Shearer

I understand that what you're seeing, you

Mikel Arteta

also don't want to show them that you're giving them way too much respect as well.

Alan Shearer

I think they're that strong and they're that good France at what they do. I think they'll say, this is who we are. You come and try and beat us with our front four.

Joe Cole

But Al just like said, if my feet, they've not even. No one's laid a glove on them, right? If they get to the semi final and you get that swagger about you and all of a sudden the first 30 minutes that Pedri's popping up and there's numbers up in front of the, then where do you go? Whereas I think they can be calm and then go for it at 60 minutes because over 120, they'll have enough power to win the game.

Micah Richards

The only thing I would say that who would you play on the left? Because Mbappe sort of had the free role he's played on the left of France before. He doesn't do his defensive work. You put Dembele there, he will work for the team, but he's on his left foot when he likes to play in the middle or off the right. So I take your point. I think it's a valid point, but it's just what France will lose if they do that, you know, attacking wise.

Mikel Arteta

Yeah, attacking wise. I think they'll lose a lot. I think they just have to come out and play the way they do. I think both teams are going to set up same way. I don't think they'll make too many changes because once you do that, it's like you're conceding already to the other side that, okay, we're a little bit scared of you. I think they both are going to come out and play the way they do. But I just think Spain half will have just because they control the game so much. Rodri just knows how to dictate that game. You know, it's like a quarterback, isn't it? He just dictates the game. And once they start to do that, they don't give you too many, too many opportunities as well. You've seen that during this tournament. I know you said they conceded, but if you look at that game. Exactly. It just came out of nowhere. That goes. But then straight away they got back to who they are, which I think they will do. And of course we're waiting for Lamin to actually come into the tournament. We know there's been a little bit of flashes here and there, but he hasn't been the Lamin that we know. So maybe hopefully in this big game he might turn up.

Gary Lineker

Well, it's interesting because their left back position is probably not France's strongest, but Hernandez and of course Digha's been playing. I mean Digne against Lamina Mal. I mean defensively that's not the strong part of his game, Micah, is it?

Micah Richards

No, it's not. But I think Denia could push him back the other way. You know, in terms of he gets in a one on one battle. How do you defend, you mean? I think what teams have been doing against him is doubling up. So they will have to double up at some point. But if he gets a free run at Dyna, it's going to be. It's going to be difficult. But like you said, I feel like he's still growing into the tournament. He's still got the fear factor and he's still got the quality. We just want to see a little bit more. I feel like when he's playing he knows he's so good, so he's just sort of waiting for that moment to come and it's gonna arrive, isn't it?

Mikel Arteta

I think he'll play Dinha, maybe Hernandez, maybe Hernandez.

Alan Shearer

Defensively, do you think?

Gary Lineker

Probably a bit more pace because you'd worry about that with that Pedri didn't start the last game. I expect he'll be a bit fresher in probably start this one, wouldn't he?

Joe Cole

You'd imagine so. He's such a beautiful footballer. We're talking about with England's perspective, we would take someone like Pedri to handle the ball. He's the reason, you know, like when we used to play Xavi in Iniesta and like you just couldn't mark them like they did. Like. And I used to look at Them and they're the same height as me, slim. I think even I could get into them, but they just drop the shot and there'd be rotations round, do you know what I mean? And Pedri's that guy for Spain. He ticks it all over. He must touch the ball the most out of all of the midfield.

Mikel Arteta

Yeah, but he hasn't played well so far in this tournament, if we need to be honest. I was covering that game.

Micah Richards

I didn't try and say this to him.

Mikel Arteta

No, he hasn't. He's been ruled.

Micah Richards

But he's not been Pedriol.

Mikel Arteta

He's not been the Pedri that we know. Fantastic footballer. I mean, the talent that he has, the quality that we all know that. But in this tournament so far, he hasn't played well.

Gary Lineker

I wonder whether he'll come good when he has to against the very best. Because that is the true test.

Mikel Arteta

Exactly. Sometimes when you play against the bigger teams, there's more spaces than when you play against smaller teams because they try to block the spaces. So I think this might be the game that he will come and he will be the Pedri that we know.

Alan Shearer

So many different little battles, isn't there? You think I'll look forward to. Then you look at another one, think I'll look forward to that battle.

Gary Lineker

I just wonder, Alan, how you stop Elise saying Mbappe together.

Alan Shearer

And that's why I'm going for France, I think, because I just think. And it's not rocket science. When you look at that front four, how do you stop them?

Gary Lineker

We've eulogised about Mbappe in this World Cup, Mikel. We've all had our say. He's been electric.

Mikel Arteta

What a player. I mean, what he's done at this age as well, to have taken this team to. What was it now, the third, might be the third World cup final. Just incredible. You know, we're talking about. I know we say, obviously Messi is the goat, but if he takes his France team to another World cup, he might be the goat of the World Cup. You know, it's just incredible, the speed that he has. And when I watch him in this tournament, it's like he's sending a message to Jose Mourinho saying, I am that guy. You know, I'm not that bad. I'm not that bad as people say I am. You need to find a solution for me so that I can be able to perform in that remedy team. It's not. People are making me the scapegoat. I'm not the scapegoat. Find a way, a system that works for me and I'll perform, I'll score you goals. But unfortunately you have Jude Bellingham as well, with egos and everything.

Gary Lineker

You two both know Mourinho and how will he handle him? He'll bring out the best of it, won't he?

Joe Cole

I think. Listen, one thing he's very good at, when he goes into a football club, he identifies where the power is and he'll know. I wouldn't be surprised if he's already not rung Kylian, maybe even met him, explain to him how he's going to use him. I think the solution for Kylian is that Kylian and Vinicius, you need to find a way of when you get the ball, it's simple tactics. When you get the ball, can we get them two on the ball in the final third? Happy? Everything else you do should start from that. And I think Jose will do that. It'll free them up. Maybe Jude and people like that will have more of a discipline role to do. But Kylian, he'll see that he's the best player in the world and just try and build the thing around him.

Micah Richards

How would you do that though? Because when they're both playing, they both like to go to that left hand side, don't they? It's been interesting seeing Kylian Mbappe playing centrally and actually doing really well. But when he plays for Real Madrid, the way he wants to take people on, they both want to be in the same space. How do you nullify that?

Joe Cole

Do you know what?

Gary Lineker

I watched a lot of Real Madrid last season and he generally stayed more central than he has done in previous. And he's so good at getting behind defenders as well. I mean, once he's behind you so many one on ones last season that

Joe Cole

he got from you got to remind him what is. And that's what he's done really well at this World Cup. He's not really come to feet and tried to do things. He's just gone, right. Every opportunity I'm gonna get, I'm dropping the shoulder and go and buy someone. He needs to be constantly reminded. That's the thing that makes him kill him. He's not Lionel Messi, he's not even Ronaldo. He's this explosive ball of energy that just makes things happen. And I think Jose will get a tune out of him.

Gary Lineker

Have Spain got enough firepower? I mean, they'll heavily rely, I think, on Laminha Mal producing his best.

Alan Shearer

I'm not compared to France. No, clearly. But they've got players that can produce moments of brilliance and if it's just whether they turn up and something happens, something can click. There's no doubt they've got ability, but not compared to those four.

Micah Richards

The only thing I will say though, Spain have played a lot of teams who have been in that low block and they find it really hard to break that down. This game won't be like that.

Mikel Arteta

Perfect game for them.

Gary Lineker

This game could have seen a lot of that spectacular. I think this game, I mean, two slightly different styles. Okay, before we move on, who's winning? One word answer, France.

Mikel Arteta

I said if Spain can keep the ball away from France, they will have the chance of winning the game. So I'm gonna go Spain.

Gary Lineker

That wasn't a one word answer.

Mikel Arteta

I'm gonna go Spain.

Micah Richards

I said Spain before, so I'm sticking with Spain.

Mikel Arteta

France, French due to tiebreaks, but I

Micah Richards

do think France are gonna win.

Alan Shearer

Come on, Gary.

Gary Lineker

I've tipped Spain to win the tournament, so I'm going to stick with Spain, honestly.

Mikel Arteta

So you're not England?

Micah Richards

Yeah.

Joe Cole

Yeah.

Gary Lineker

None of us picked England because it's. I don't want to fate.

Katie K

Hello and welcome to Doing It Anyway, a brand new series from Goal Hanger. I'm Katie K. I've spent years studying the science and art of confidence, writing books about how we can close the confidence gap between men and women, and talking to experts, experts and younger women about how to pass it on. Confidence means taking risks, acknowledging your fears, and, well, doing it anyway. In this series, I'll be talking to psychologists, entrepreneurs and business leaders to unpack how you can rethink challenges and grow your own confidence. We'll talk about how to spot the difference between confidence and competence, how to deal with office politics and stolen credit, and yes, how handling rejection and ultimately how you can become a better leader, teammate, and yes, a better person. Doing It Anyway with Katie K. Every Friday, wherever you get your podcasts.

Gary Lineker

Next up, the big one, England versus Argentina. Before we get into it, earlier on, I caught up with Rob Jones to get the latest news from the camp.

Rob Jones

Hi, Rob.

Gary Lineker

How are you doing today? Still in Kansas. Not much longer though, I don't think. No.

Rob Jones

The final full day for England in Kansas City before they head off to Atlanta for that World cup semi final. We've been speaking to Jordan Pickford today who has been part of the full England success story since reaching a World cup semi final eight years ago in 2018. He's a good guy, Jordan Pickford. He's One of those who will finish his press conference and stick around for a chat for a couple of minutes after. But those comments from Thomas Tuchel made a lot of headlines, didn't they, in the aftermath of the win against Norway? That other than the mentality, there wasn't much that he enjoyed about that England performance. But you have to say, psychologically, they have been to the well in the knockout stages. Twice behind in games, first against Dia Congo, then in Miami against Norway, and then that incredible effort against Mexico. A man down after Jarell Quanza's red card and to stick it out against one of the co hosts at the Azteca and see themselves through to the last 16. And that is part of what Jordan Pickford has been speaking today. Just how close and how mentally strong this group of players are.

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Rob Jones

Talking of togetherness, ask you about one of the key members of the group. A new cult hero is emerging. Big Dan Byrne, who has come on in the last couple of games for the squad as a whole. How much has it meant to see him come on and do his bit in two big wins?

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Just shows the character he has, is a lad and, you know, not played much at all. Then coming on from Mexico and making seven or eight challenges with his head and that overhead kick from Jimenez and he just stood there and took us, took like a mine and. Yeah, but that's. That's what you do. You train well and once you get your opportunity, you take it. And he's been brilliant and everyone's seen the video of him heading that last ball, but I think I was heading it myself with him, so. But that's a character he is, and that's a character we have in the squad and that's a mentality we have as well.

Gary Lineker

A lot of talk, Rob, about the togetherness there. We heard it again from Jordan Pickford about that brotherly kind of relationship they all seem to have. Was that stirred a little bit or. I don't think for one minute there's a problem between Jude Bellingham and Thomas Tuchel, but clear that up for us.

Rob Jones

I think it's a show of leadership, leadership from Jude Bellingham that he's actually saying, do you know what Me and my mates have been through it here today. It was so hot in Miami on Saturday. Thomas Tuchel was not the man out on the field, but the players put everything into that game. You could see Harry Kane was sort of on all fours facing the turf at the end. John Stones, when he was taking his boots off, looked absolutely exhausted. So I think, again, that's a show of togetherness in a different sort of way that Jude Bellingham has said. We have given absolutely everything out on this pitch and there's not much more left in the tank.

Gary Lineker

What's the latest in terms of injuries? Declan Rice over his illness, obviously. Saka, the perennial sort of problems that he seems to be having at the moment. Where are we looking?

Rob Jones

Well, this is two days before the game. It's a quick turnaround for England, but two days before a match is the one training session that you don't get any access to at all. So not really sure who's okay and who isn't. We saw a lot of shots of the England players doing recovery yesterday. They're in the pool. There are bikes within the pool. There are stretch bands as well, but there's a few to keep an eye on. Rhys James, who came back in that game, Thomas Tuchel might have wanted him to play 20 minutes, but he had to play extra time as well. So that was 50. Nico Riley had a tight muscle. Mark Gehe had a tight hamstring going into it and played the full 120 minutes. Declan Rice looked really, really tired. He'd not been well. So hopefully the last few days will have done him a little bit of a good. And I think Bukayo Saka, he's just not going to be fit, fully fit for any part of this tournament. But maybe not starting him on Saturday. There is a hope that if England get to a semi final, then the final, he might just be able to to start two games this week.

Gary Lineker

Yeah. So what's the next move off through Atlanta? I presume this is it.

Joe Cole

Yeah.

Rob Jones

They will train one more time in Kansas City tomorrow morning and that is when we will get a gauge of which of the England players will be fit and firing and ready to go before taking on a certain Lionel Messi and Argentina. As you would expect, Gary, so many of the questions were about Lionel Messi and how England could stop them today. Jordan Pickford was at pains a number of times to say, look, it's not just about Lionel Messi. And as he got down, Jordan Pickford was quite fixed. He said, God, I'm absolutely starving and as would Luckwood have it, he and the captain, Harry Kane, were both here doing some interviews today and were presented with some local sausage rolls before they left. Jordan Pickford has assured us he will wait until after the game before he gets tucked into those.

Gary Lineker

No problem. Sausage rolls. Thanks very much, Rob. Well, he said that the players were keen to say that it's not just about Messi, but it sort of is. If you can. If you can somehow keep Messi out the game, Mikel, which is not easy, you've got a better chance.

Mikel Arteta

Yeah, Gary, how do you do that? We've all tried and we've all failed. One thing I have to say, I mean, he's just genius. I mean, fantastic player. When we used to play Chelsea against Barcelona, it's just incredible. Obviously, a week before the game, we always talk about it, Lionel Messi, how do we stop him? And of course, Mourinho always have a tactics. How do we stop this little magician? But, you know, we've all tried to gang up against him. You have to have one or two players. You can't defend 1v1 against. It's impossible.

Gary Lineker

Alan says, what about Manto, man, just wherever he goes, just stick with him. Can you do that?

Mikel Arteta

You, you, you can, but you don't want to walk around with a player like that. Just walk around with him one to one. But that Barcelona team, Jo, you know, they're moving the ball around, they moving the ball, zipping the ball around just to find one person, just to get the ball to him. Once that ball hits his feet, everything else changes. It's just incredible. And the way he dribbles the ball, the ball is like a magnet on his feet. It doesn't leave it. He's just the vision that he sees. He's one of the best passers in the world. We talk about his goals and every other thing, but he's one of the best passes. The weight of the pass is just incredible. We tried. But one thing I'll say during our time at Chelsea, he didn't score a goal against. And as soon as we left, and then I think he scored one or two or three.

Micah Richards

So what tactically did you do, though? What did you do to set up well?

Joe Cole

Well, you have to say as well, the rules of the game were different, so you could get physical with him, you know, and the pitches weren't as perfect, so there was more of a benefit to defenders. But I think, like, it was very simple. It was wherever he is on the pitch, you needed to be two or three so if you're an attacking player, you have to. You have to take something out your game because you had to always be mindful of, I need to be in that slot. Because he would. When he was young, when he was young and in this small, he could. He would. He was just going to beat you and you had to accept it and it would be the sort of. The one behind him had to be there. The one behind him. If it was one on one, if he had exposed anyone one on one, they're gone.

Gary Lineker

It's interesting, he's never played against England and there's always this thing, people say, yeah, but he's not done it in the Premier League. And. But let me raise one. I've got some interesting stats here, right? So he's played 10 games against Chelsea, three goals, three assists, eight games against Manchester City, seven goals and two assists, six games against Arsenal, nine goals and one assist, six games against Manchester United, four goals, four games against Liverpool, two goals, two games against Tottenham and two goals. And that's supposedly.

Joe Cole

That's the elite as well, isn't it?

Gary Lineker

36 games, 33 goal involvements. So I think he's kind of dispelled that myth because that's actually against the top teams in the Premier League. He is remarkable.

Joe Cole

Yeah.

Gary Lineker

I mean, I've watched him for 20 years and I'm with Mikel on this and I know he's teasing at the start of the show and saying, I want Argentina to win, but I don't, I don't. I want us to stop him. But goodness me, it's defined logic in the fact what he's doing at 39

Alan Shearer

years old, that age and their system now is that obviously he doesn't do as much run when they haven't got the ball. Others have to cover for him. But it is so noticeable is that whenever you watch Argentina, the first thing they do is when they get the ball, where is he? Can they find him? Can they find him in that dangerous position that they can get the ball forward into him? And that is what they do, that is how they play. And it's all right saying, we'll stop it. It's one thing. Think you've got to go and do it. That's the hard thing.

Micah Richards

Now, you mentioned you would, man. Mark, would you actually.

Alan Shearer

No, I'm not saying I would, actually.

Micah Richards

No, just as an option. And who would you probably.

Alan Shearer

I would say to Jed Spence. I think he's. I look at how athletic he is, how fit he is.

Gary Lineker

You don't need to Be that athletic. But you just need to. Well, as soon as it's standing. But you need to be intelligent.

Mikel Arteta

Yeah, but just an option.

Alan Shearer

Yeah. Whether the. Well, I just. I think that what they'll say is. What you said is that as soon as there's a turnover, the ball, you think, where is he? We have to get someone or two people near him to stop him.

Gary Lineker

Who's winning? England.

Joe Cole

No, not. I want England to win. I looked at it and I think we've got too much power in the midfield and to break against Argentina and I just think. I think that'll be the difference in the game. Obviously you have to stop Messi, but I think there'll be moments.

Mikel Arteta

Moments.

Joe Cole

The game gets open, it's going to suit us down to the ground.

Gary Lineker

Laika.

Micah Richards

Yeah, I'd probably agree with that. I just don't know. Messi. You know, when you go into a game and it's all about one person, everyone's gonna be talking about Messi, haven't they? And it's just whether they can overcome that in terms of tactics and what England can do, 100%, I agree with you. They've got too much power, too much pace. But what Argentina are really good at is making fouls at the right time, picking people up, getting set and then having that moment. But we've obviously got now players who got moments with Bellingham and with Kane. And I feel as though it's gonna. Who's going to have that moment first.

Gary Lineker

Okay, Alan. I'll give Mikel the final one.

Alan Shearer

It would worry me re decisions. I do think, because there'll be a bit of spice in the game, it wouldn't surprise me if there was a red card or two as well, really. But I think England will have enough to get through to the final year.

Gary Lineker

England, Mikel.

Mikel Arteta

I'll go Argentina. I think when you have a player like Messi, one thing I'll say about English team, you know, as much as they've been, they haven't been great, let's say that way they've had one good half so far in this tournament and the rest, they haven't played well. And if you're playing against a team like Argentina, will, you know, Messi, they will expose you. They will find those spaces. And where do they find the spaces in that midfield between Declan Rice and Anderson? So Messi, that's where he's going to be. You don't also. You don't want to have Declan Rice, man marking Lionel Messi because you take so much away from him. So that is going to be the space that Lionel Messi will love. And if he gets the ball there, that's it. That's it. You're dead. And once he turns and faces you, you're dead. So for me, that's where the game will be decided. But I just think Argentina, now, they know how to win these games. They've been there, they've done it. The bodyguards that Messi have, they know how to fight for him. They want to win for him. So I just think, with that in mind, I just think I just said I will have just a little bit too much for England.

Gary Lineker

Well, thanks. That's it for this episode of the Rest Is Football. The next time we'll be with you. Well, it'll be after England have played Argentina. Let's hope for some good news.