Narrator/Host

This Monday.com ad was created by a team of people and AI agents. Reese, our content agent, wrote the copy based on our best practices. Like mentioning Monday.com three times. That was the second. Johnny, our coordination agent, built the timeline and kept everyone aligned. Olivia, our human creative director, stayed in the loop because agents are great, but they don't always know when a joke lands. She had one tell listeners it only takes minutes to build an agent. So minutes. Create your own AI agent. Today on Monday.com I'm 23 years old.

Tara Palmieri

I'm at the Boom Boom Room at the Standard Hotel for the premiere of Blue Valentine. It's one of the hottest clubs in New York City, and I'm cornered by Harvey Weinstein. His belly is pressing into me. I'm backed up against the glass walls overlooking Chelsea. Nowhere left to go. He's enormous, at least 6ft tall, with a scruffy beard and the presence of someone who has never been told no. He feels a bully. I had already heard the stories. He threw staplers at assistants, locked employees in bathroom stalls, slept with young actresses. At the time, people whispered about his behavior, but not yet about rape. He was simply considered a difficult genius, a powerful man who got what he wanted. And I was a reporter at Page Six, covering celebrities, media executives and the New York social scene. It wasn't where I wanted to start my journalism career. As a little girl, I was fascinated by the muckrakers of the early 20th century. They exposed corruption. They held powerful people to account. With nothing more than persistence and a pen, I dreamed of covering the White House one day. But you don't start at the White House. You earn your way there. And working at the bottom of the masthead of the most famous and feared gossip column in the world wasn't a bad place to start. So that night, I had just asked Michelle Williams an uncomfortable question about rumors that she and Ryan Gosling had fallen in love while filming Blue Valentine. Were the love scenes real? Were they together? She reacted like someone under attack, frantically looking for her publicist. It was like I had lit a firework in the middle of the room. I'm not especially proud of the question that day, but back then, I understood the assignment. My job was to understand the lives and relationships of famous people. Well, word traveled quickly. Michelle's publicist told Harvey that she had melted down in front of a Page Six reporter. Within minutes, he had me up against the glass wall. Don't write it, he said. I'll give you something else. I told him I would write what I witnessed. He realized intimidation wasn't working with this Jersey girl, so he changed tactics. He waved Ryan Gosling over my weakness. I dropped my drink. I shook Ryan's hand, and Harvey watched to see if I would soften. But I didn't. When charm failed, he switched to force. He moved Ryan aside, stepped closer, and lowered his voice. I'll make sure you or anyone else at Page Six never covers another Miramax film again. Good luck keeping your job. I looked back at him and said, fine. The next morning, before I even showed up at work, my editor had already received a call from Harvey's publicist, Peggy Siegel. You might recognize that name because she also helped Jeffrey Epstein reintroduce himself into polite society after he served time as a convicted sex offender. My boss asked me what happened. I told her. Well, Peggy told my boss that Michelle Williams was still grieving Heath Ledger's death and that I had upset her. Then she repeated Harvey's threat. My editor spent what felt like hours negotiating with them. The story never ran. In return, Page Six received access to Harvey Weinstein's Oscar campaign for the King Speech. It went on to win Best Picture. So it worked. Bullies win sometimes, I learned. But that was really one of the first moments when I understood what power looked like up close. Not simply influence, but entitlement. Harvey believed the rules that applied to everyone else didn't apply to him. He believed access could be traded, careers could be destroyed, and stories could simply disappear because he wanted them to. Years later, we would all learn he had done far worse behind closed doors than he had ever dared to do in front of a reporter. I still can't stop thinking about that day. It wasn't just Harvey, though. It was the pattern. Again and again, I found myself covering men who treated power as if it was permission. It's one of the reasons I left celebrity journalism for politics. Hollywood kind of matters. Not really. But Washington matters even more. The decisions made there touch all of our lives. And if there were Harvey Weinstein's in entertainment, there were probably even more in politics. And there was something about power. The people attracted to it and what they did with that power as soon as they gained it and what they did as it became more and more powerful. Over the last two decades, I've spent much of my career reporting on abuse of power, whether it involves presidents, billionaires, media executives, or members of Congress. One lesson that kept repeating itself. When one woman comes forward, there are often many others. Some are still deciding whether to speak. Some haven't yet found the words for what happened. To them still are trying to convince themselves that it wasn't their fault, that what happened to them was real. That's why when the first allegations against Graham Platner became public, I felt very uneasy. I felt like there would probably be more. People accused me of rushing to judgment, but I knew I wasn't. I had simply seen this story before. The names change, but the pattern rarely does. Around the same time, I had heard Senator Alyssa Slotkin make this observation, and it really stuck with me. I look forward to the day where I am not answering every single week a question about bad behavior by another dude. I just. I look forward to that day. She was touching on something I've wrestled with for years. Nearly every major abuse of power story I've covered has involved a man. Sure, it's probably because for every one woman, there are four members of Congress that are men. There are, of course, exceptions. I mean, Katie Porter was accused of creating an abusive workplace for her staff. Amy Klobuchar faced scrutiny for how she treated her staffers. Power isn't exclusive to men, and neither is abusing it. But overwhelmingly, the people I've investigated have been men. Maybe part of it is structural. Women still hold far fewer positions of political power. But I also wondered if it was that we were rewarding different qualities in men than we do in women. The traits we celebrate in male absolute confidence, relentless certainty. Charisma, competitiveness, the refusal to take no for an answer. They're often traits we criticize in women long before they even reach positions of authority. Confidence in women is arrogant. A decisive woman is bossy. An ambitious woman is difficult. Now, an emotional man is passionate. A commanding man is presidential. A stubborn man is determined. I sometimes wondered if women are penalized earlier for qualities that, left unchecked in men, don't become disqualifying until they've crossed something much darker. Because confidence can become entitlement. Charisma can become manipulation. Persistence can become an inability to hear no. The ability to persuade can become coercion. Politics is uniquely dangerous because it attracts people who are comfortable with status, influence, and competition. They Those qualities aren't inherently bad. Some of our greatest leaders possess them. But without humility, empathy, and accountability, they can mutate into something else entirely. Power doesn't always corrupt. Sometimes it simply reveals. I've also noticed something else. When powerful men fall, we often look for the women around them to explain it. What did Ann Curry know about Matt Lauer? What did Jill Biden know about Joe Biden's decline? What did Kamala Harris know Women are expected to manage men's behavior while simultaneously being blamed for failing to stop it. And when women speak out against powerful men, they're often accused of having another agenda, that they're political operatives, opportunists or participants in some broader conspiracy instead of witnesses to their own experience.

Guest/Commentator

I think that there are a lot of men in this world relying on the silence of women and to be where they are.

Tara Palmieri

I've spent my career asking difficult questions of people in power. Sometimes they've threatened me. Sometimes they've lied to me. Sometimes they've convinced everyone else before the truth finally caught up with them. That night in the Boom Boom Room was the first time I realized that journalism wasn't just about gathering facts. It was about standing in front of power and refusing to move. I believed it then. I believe it now. Because sooner or later, power reveals character. The job of journalism is to notice it before everyone else does. This is the Tara Palmieri Show. Thank you all for supporting me in my journey as a journalist. I will keep holding those in power to account, as always. You can support my journalism by hitting that subscribe button, going to the red letter. Go to that QR code there. Become a paid subscriber and support this fearless independent journalism. No shadowy backers, just me to you, supported by you. Direct conversations, real talk. And take a listen to my conversation with my friend Stuart Stevens when we talk about all the latest news involving strong women who stand up to power. Welcome to the Tara Palmary show and all of our followers who are watching this, either on Lincoln Square or the Red Letter. Thanks so much. We've got so much news today with our special guest, Steven Stuart Stevens from Lincoln Square. So Graham Platner finally drops out of the race after an excruciating 48 hours after an accuser comes forward and says that she was allegedly raped by him. President Trump is also forced to pay Eugene Carol 5 million million in a defamation case. She also accused him of rape. And Mitch McConnell, former Senate majority leader. He's been hospitalized since June 14th. Now there are questions about the state of his health. Where is he? Is he alive? What is going on right now in Kentucky? And then last night, President Trump had to ditch his luxury Qatari jumbo jet, Air Force One, on his way back from NATO and Turkey for the old one, the good old reliable Air Force One, because of guess what, security concerns since they are still bombing Iran. So happy you're here, Stuart. So great to see you again.

Stuart Stevens

Listen, I've got to give you many shout outs for the way that you've covered Graham Platner. It's like the way that you've covered the Epstein. You've just been all over it. I mean, the obvious conclusion here is men should not be allowed to run for office, only women. We wouldn't have these problems. The world would be safer. We wouldn't be like, you know, bombing random countries every few minutes because you have Pete Exit who, like, was rejected in high school by some girl and was trying to prove himself. I know, but, you know, the Graham Platner thing, I did a live lesson about it. You know, my message to Graham Platner was, look, you have one chance in life here, the day after this election, to still maybe have a future, and that's if a Democrat wins that seat. Because if a Democrat loses, you're going to be blamed for it. And the rest of your life, you're going to be the guy who kept Donald Trump in power.

Tara Palmieri

Yeah, I want to just go piggyback on what you said about women. It was funny because Alyssa Slotkin said, I think on Ms. Now, I heard her say something like, it would be so great if I didn't have to comment all the other, all the time on some dude's bad behavior. And you got to wonder like, why are, why aren't we supporting more women? But, you know, women aren't perfect either. But in the case of Graham Platner, it just seemed to me like such hubris this entire time. Right. Even in his concession video, which we're going to play in a second, he refuses to accept the allegations and spends the entire time blaming the political establishment for this, not his own actions, in which it's clear that he admits that he had ptsd, he was suffering with mental issues. And it's very possible that when you are a heavy drinker, you may not remember when you blacked out, broke into a woman's house and raped her. But let's take a listen to his. A short clip from his 11, 11 minute video in which his advisors begged him. They were, they said, graham, please be conciliatory. And this is what they got instead.

Graham Platner (via video clip)

The things that have been claimed did not happen. It's not real. I just want you to think about, like, what you would do as a regular person in a position where a much larger world, large forces were working against you personally, a corporate media system, and the political establishment got to act as judge, jury and executioner. There is a reason that this is happening now. This was the last week to try to get me off of the ballot. That's why this is occurring. It's not the false allegations, though, that have brought us to where we are. It's the fact that they are being used by the political establishment.

Tara Palmieri

Yeah, it's the political establishment. The political establishment.

Stuart Stevens

There's a long history of the main Democratic Party getting random women to come out and say that a candidate that they maybe had some issues with raped him. I mean, it is most that despicable display by Platner. I mean, it basically. Is this the guy who would do this? Of course this is the guy who would do it. Who refuses to accept, has to blame everybody. I mean, you have this full rich kid who had a rough war, okay? But a lot of people happen to that. And you know, which. Which woman is lying here, Graham? Was it the first one, the second one, the third one, the fourth one, the fifth one, or the sixth one? They're all liars. You know it. This guy is a mess. He should say, I have one mission in life and that is to do whatever I can do to elect a Democrat in Maine. And if that means go in my house and never come out and shut up, I'll do that. If that means go door to door, whatever it takes, I will do what is best interest of the Democratic Party to elect a senator. Because that's a lot bigger than me. Yeah, it's just, look, I find this despicable and pathetic, this self indulgence, like they're out to get me. Nobody's out to get. You know,

Tara Palmieri

this is horrible.

Stuart Stevens

They weren't out to get you when you flunked out of Hotchkiss. You know, it's just, you know, the one positive is, thank God this guy's not going to be in the U.S. senate.

Tara Palmieri

Yeah.

Stuart Stevens

Because it would only get worse.

Tara Palmieri

And I understand in some ways why these. I mean, in a lot of ways, based on my work working with survivors, why these women would take so long to come forward, because there's just so much to lose by coming forward. Most people don't ever want to accept this part of their past. They don't want to be seen as victims, especially women. You don't want to be seen as trouble. Right. And then these women, it took a lot of courage for them. And I think the reason that they did it is because they saw that they didn't want this man to have power because they've seen him abuse power in the past. Rape and power are very closely intertwined. Right. I mean, rape is an aggression. It is an act of power. And when you see someone who has done that, try to ascend and use that power. Whether, you know, people who supported him thought it was for good, there's always going to be concern about how he uses it. And as you and I both know, we've both been in Washington for a long time. There are a lot of temptations in Washington. He will have a lot more power there. He'll have a lot more adorning staffers, lobbyists, a lot more liquor. He's already said he has, you know, an issue with that. You're not living with your wife out there in Washington. Right. For the most part, you're living like a college student. There's just so many more temptations. And the woman who came out recently, we're going to listen to her tape for a second. She, I don't, she was just upset that the, the New York Times didn't really feature what she went through or did the correct reporting to show exactly how she felt this man had taken, taken advantage of her. So take a listen to her conversation with Jake Tucker.

Guest/Commentator

I don't believe that you can think that that scenario is consensual. You have to, you have to understand that that wasn't. When somebody is repeatedly, I mean, when somebody in the middle of it says don't touch me, like that's obviously not consensual.

Tara Palmieri

The thing that really bothers me too, even in this post candidacy period and when he knew he was basically dead, you know, when Mandani comes out against you and Hassan Piker and Bernie Sanders and the entire party, he was still insistent on picking his successor. I mean, that was a big part of this 48 hour lapse.

Stuart Stevens

Yeah, I mean, look, dude, guys who are accused of rape credibly usually don't get the person who follows them in their job. I mean, just kind of how the universe works. It's, it's just this sense of entitlement that I'm special. No sense of, I have made a terrible mistake. I have abused people's trust. I have seriously hurt my family. I've hurt my state, I've hurt my country. I am so sorry. No, none of that. And it's just this small rich kid, why me? What's happening to me? And it is so Donald Trump that look, I find it just utterly despicable. He's, you know, guys like this should be shunned. She said nothing to do with them. They shouldn't be allowed to move through life and polite society. Let him go back to his farm and convince himself he's, you know, some Special character.

Tara Palmieri

Yeah. Well, it's interesting because the Democratic Party, which the brand obviously has taken a huge hit to its own credibility following the presidency of President Biden. But he was fresh based, right? He was picked by consultants. They saw him in a video and they thought he was charismatic. I mean, this is not someone who naturally rose up from the grassroots. This was a man who was plucked because of his appeal. He was centrally cast and he had that outsider energy. He didn't seem or act like a politician. And then it's revealed from his wife's own Instagram page he's got a Nazi tattoo. Right. And even then, though, there are people still saying that. The fact that I was expressing a lot of concern when I read the New York Times first article about him and the women that came forward and the fact that I know from my reporting that when one woman comes forward, there's usually five behind them that are still considering whether they can even speak or accepting their story to begin with. People said, no, you're just a part of the establishment. You're just, you're funded by apac. Or it's like, no, I have, I have no interest in, like, I have no stake in this. I'm a journalist. I have, I, I mean, the Democrats are in arguably a very weak position right now and what should be a very easy seat for them to win, right. Susan Collins is the incumbent senator in a purple state. Janet Mills, the Democrat, Democratic governor. And clearly the people of Maine, they would easily pick someone new, someone fresh faced, and they have now Democrats have until July 27 to pick a replacement. Not a long time and they'll have a party convention. But Jacob Taylor has a question for you, Stuart. He wanted to know who you think has the best chance of beating Collins now and do you agree with this way of selecting the next candidate? Do you think it should be a progressive in the same vein as. As Platner?

Stuart Stevens

Well, my candidate with Heather Cox Richardson,

Guest/Commentator

who

Stuart Stevens

are winning by seven points, which isn't bad for, you know, an obscure history professor. So look, I really, I'll be straight up honest. I really don't know enough about Maine politics to know who would be the best candidate here. This is a terrible position, place to party in. It is so reminiscent of what happened when Biden got out. Because any process you come up with is not the process that it should have been. And you're going to have a smaller group of people picking this nominee. I just think that what is so essential is that the greater good be what is at stake here. What is in everybody's mind and whoever is picked, and really, in a political science way, a generic Democrat should win this race easily. And I think it'd be a lot better if it was a woman. And I think that there's not the last outsider in Maine, Graham Platner. There could be other people out there, but the key here is no one will remember the process if the party comes together right afterwards, and that's including Platner, Bernie, everybody, whoever they come up with. Nobody gets their first choice all the time. Somebody's got to be willing to lose. That's the essence of democracy. But this party has to come together to beat Susan Collins, who is very, very, very beatable.

Narrator/Host

Right?

Guest/Commentator

Yeah.

Tara Palmieri

I mean, this is a moment that does sort of remind me of the last major election had. And it does feel like an existential crisis for the Democrats. Right. Like, this is a path to the majority through Maine. This is one of those easy seats for them to pick up. And we seem to be back where we were last time. And a lot of people felt that the way that Kamala Harris was selected was not very Democratic. And now we're sort of in a similar situation. At least there's a convention of sorts, and it's not just an appointment. I just wonder, will more time or less time be better for the Democrats? Because I think sometimes in some ways, maybe less time, they're a shiny new object. Everyone's excited. Maybe there's not as much time for opposition research. Although one of the guy who's raised his hands already apparently has thrown something on somebody. I'm like, Jesus. And it's. It's found within minutes. His last name starts with Troy. I didn't remember his full name, but yeah. What do you think? What's better? More or less time or just deal with what you've got?

Stuart Stevens

I think, look, you got to deal. You got to go to war with the army. You have.

Tara Palmieri

Yeah.

Stuart Stevens

Another guy said, the process in these things ultimately doesn't matter if the party comes together. I mean, if you go back to Obama and Clinton, they were still fighting in June. There was tremendously bad blood. You had Bill Clinton out there giving these almost tearful statements saying, I'm not a racist. And the party managed to come together, and it worked. Look, if you really. This is sort of a moral test to me. If you believe that Donald Trump is an existential threat to the country, which I believe a lot of people believe. I think Democratic Party should believe because it's the case. I know these people as bad as you think they are, they are worse. If you believe that. What does that mean? That means it dominates every decision that you make on who you're going to support, what you're going to do. I mean, the United States went to war, was Stalin because there was a greater good in it. So I think that that's really the sort of time are you really going to put the country first? All this bullshit that we say, are you really going to be a patriot? Are you really going to say that? What is essential here is that we stop Donald Trump. And if you carry the House and you carry the Senate, first of all, you're going to save a lot of lives. There's not going to be as many people getting murdered by ice. There's going to be less people getting starving to death because we've cut off usaid. Odds are that we won't be blowing up random countries as much. This is big, big stuff. And these kind of petty life imitating high school fights just have to be put aside. And look, as a former Republican consultant, we won a lot of races because the Democratic Party couldn't get out of their own way. Races that we had no business winning. And one of the things we did at the Lincoln Project, try to do at the Lincoln Project is show Democrats how to win and use the tools that we learned how to do as Republicans. So whoever is my advice to him would be about Susan Collins. Attack, attack, attack. Susan Collins gave us Kavanaugh. Susan Collins gave us Donald Trump. Susan Collins has voted with Donald Trump overwhelmingly. And it's not a question of does she know which fork to pick up or is she a genteel person. It's basically like segregation. Are you for it or against it? She's for Donald Trump. She didn't have to be. She is. Liz Cheney wasn't.

Tara Palmieri

Susan Collins was career was very short lived after she showed that she had a line. Apparently no one else has but

Stuart Stevens

Susan Collins or Liz Cheney. I think you'd rather be Liz Cheney in the same way. Who would you rather be, Jeff Flake or John Cornyn? They're both going to be ex senators and say I did the right thing. I think Jeff Flake.

Tara Palmieri

Well, we'll definitely talk about John Cornyn, but first I want to talk about Trump. He almost defended Grant Platner yesterday when speaking to the press. Hold on one second. I wanted to set this up for a second. He was asked whether Platner should drop out. This was before Platner dropped out. And of course Trump suggests like, can you really Believe the woman. That is where it turned. But just take a listen here.

Narrator/Host

Replacement for Graham Platner if he steps out of the race.

Stuart Stevens

So he won the primary.

Narrator/Host

Right.

Tara Palmieri

And now there's these new allegations.

Stuart Stevens

Very hard for them to do. And it's really a question of whether or not you believe the woman. A lot of people say big falsehoods.

Tara Palmieri

Yeah, that's.

Stuart Stevens

That. That. That alone should be why grandparent gets out. You know, the brotherhood of sexual harassers and rapists have stood together. There's like a union thing. You know, I gotta stand with them.

Tara Palmieri

What are your dues to that?

Stuart Stevens

Yeah, yeah, exactly. What are your dues for that union?

Tara Palmieri

Your soul.

Stuart Stevens

You know, I think someone posted something I thought was very clever, but also probably true. You know, AOC set this out, and maybe there's something that ex female bartenders know about guys like Platner when you just sort of have the spider sense when you see them.

Tara Palmieri

Women know this.

Stuart Stevens

Yeah.

Tara Palmieri

You don't have to be a bartender.

Stuart Stevens

All right, there you go. And so Donald Trump does see this guy that reminds him of himself. He goes like, so what? I'm President of the United States. I was Jeffrey Epstein's best friend. Juries found me guilty of allegations the judge says were rape. So what? We need more of me. It's the most predictable thing in the world.

Tara Palmieri

Which brings me to E. Jean Carroll, the writer, the advice columnist. Trump finally must pay her. A federal judge in Manhattan has ordered the release of $5.8 million to writer Eugene Carrol after the jury found that Trump sexually abused her back in 1996 in the dressing room of Bergdorf Goodman in Manhattan. This money stems from the 2023 civil trial against Trump. And the payout was always supposed to happen, but Trump stalled, of course. But this pushed through after the Supreme Court declined to hear Trump's appeal last week. Trump's law lawyers, of course, are still fighting this, and. But it would be the first time a sitting president has to pay out. And there's still a larger sum of 83 million that Trump is still meant to pay Carol over a separate 2024 defamation trial. I'm sure if I was Trump's lawyers, I'd just be, like, shot that, you know, up. But that's impossible. You will literally have to pay for every word that comes out of your mouth. Here's the thing. Will Trump ever really make this payment? Will he stall? She's 82 years old. I mean, I hope she makes it to see the day where she sees something she doesn't care about the money, she says, but still, it's a principle, right?

Stuart Stevens

Yeah. You know, in the other part of my life, I write, I used to write a lot for Outside magazine. And E. Jean Carroll also wrote for Outside magazine. And I didn't really know her well, I knew her a little bit. She was always brilliant, funny, the person that if you had to name four people you wouldn't be stranded on a desert isle with, she would be one of those because she would be the most amusing and smartest. And you know, what Trump did is so despicable, horrible the way it impacted her life negatively. $80 million isn't nearly enough money. I don't know enough about the process here, about whether or not, you know, he's already put this 5 million in as a security. It's there how quickly it's going to be transferred. And I also don't know what is the law. If EJ and Carroll sadly left us about the 80 million which have to still pay at the E. Jean Carroll's

Tara Palmieri

estate, she wants to give it to a charity, so maybe she could.

Stuart Stevens

She's already designated that charity. Would that not have to still go? But I mean, look, just think about, just step back from this. You have a president of the United States who has been found guilty of sexual assault that the judge called rape and is fighting it, attacking these women. I mean, you know, look, how hypocritical is this for the Republican Party? I mean, back during Clinton, remember all this beautiful stuff that was written by people like William Bennett, that the presidency is more than just an executive position. It's the soul of the nation. It represents who we are as a people. And all that just out the window. I mean, it's why I called a book I wrote. It was all a lie. I still think people care about this stuff. And I can tell you, in the 2000 election, all the ads we made in the Bush campaign, the one that worked better than anything by far, was George Bush saying that he would restore honor and dignity to the White House. And people cared about that. They do.

Tara Palmieri

Because you're a moral leader. And you are, you are. You're a show, too. You are a show of our values. And when you turn on the tv, you rep. You represent us. You represent us across the world. You, the stories that are about you are the things you remember. I mean, I was a young girl when the Monica Lewinsky case broke. And I remember it vividly. And I the way she was shamed, the stories, the late night jokes about her, what it meant I mean, I was like a. Maybe 8 years old and 9, 10 years old. I mean, these are. These are the stories that kids are learning right now as well.

Stuart Stevens

Yeah, look, I mean, say what you will about Bill Clinton, when women came forward with credible accusations when he was running, those women were attacked viciously.

Tara Palmieri

It was horrible.

Stuart Stevens

Yeah.

Tara Palmieri

Finally, the tide has turned, but not entirely.

Stuart Stevens

If you go back and you watch War Room, the documentary, it's pretty ugly what's being said about these women. I don't think that would happen now. So that's to the good. And I think if were to happen, it would be more likely to happen in the Republican Party than the Democratic Party. I don't think that there's a moral equivalency here. I helped elect a lot of these people, and my message to them is, you are what you agree. That is acceptable. So when you agree, Donald Trump, this is acceptable. This is who you are, and you wouldn't do this. I think someone like Roger Wicker, I've known all my life, we're Paisley's in Washington together. Our dads were friends. Roger Wicker, I don't think this is an exaggeration. Wouldn't let Pete Hexett cut his lawn. Like you're gonna have this drunk with tattoos. Weird thing about women around the house. No, but he goes and puts him in place, this extraordinarily powerful position. So that's his legacy.

Tara Palmieri

I wouldn't trust him with my dog. Well, I love my dog more than anything.

Stuart Stevens

But still, it is what the Republican Party has become. And this is why, you know, I say that all of the stuff that we put out as Republicans, I don't know any honest conclusion to come to. But they were not values. They were not first principles. They were marketing slogans. And when those marketing slogans weren't so effective, it's like, okay, great, we'll do something else. And to some of us who worked in the party, I think a lot of us, it came as a real shock. We kind of felt like the people working for Bernie Manhofer actually thought we were beating the market. It's like, this isn't true.

Tara Palmieri

That Republicans, they had to cede, being, in my opinion, the Family Values Party, they had to cede. Although they wouldn't say so. They're still the party of white Christian nationalists. They'll tell you, and they will blare it in your face. Prey.com but at the end of the day, the leadership does not reflect prey.com, the new initiative that they are putting forward Maybe that's a cultural symbol, but it's certainly not a value symbol anymore. Democrats wanted to back Graham Platner. They were going to have to cede having a real differentiator in, in their messaging, which is that we are the party of values.

Stuart Stevens

Right, Yeah. I mean, on the positive side, this has happened now and not, you know, next week.

Tara Palmieri

Right.

Stuart Stevens

There's still a solution, but it's. Look, one of the things that I argue against a lot is this sort of moral equivalency between the parties. And I think it's an unfair standard to say, well, there's problems in the Democratic Party too. Yeah, there are.

Tara Palmieri

There are problems with people. People are problematic, especially people who want power. They tend to be really problematic.

Stuart Stevens

I mean, look, you go back to 2004 election. John Kerry lost Ohio by a very close margin. What would have happened to John Kerry if he had gone out and said, I want Ohio, I am president. The Democratic Party would have taken his head off. The New York Times would have editorialized that he should resign from the Senate in disgrace. And what happened when a Republican did that? Donald Trump in 20. They all knew it was a lie, but they said, okay, well, just let's humor him. And I think that there's a real difference. And I think the Republican Party today is operating more like an extremist movement than a traditional American political party. And what do we know about extremist movements? They only become more extreme.

Tara Palmieri

Well, I mean, in the case of Stacy Abrams, like, she wouldn't concede in her first race for Georgia.

Stuart Stevens

That's not good.

Tara Palmieri

Yeah, the party wasn't too tough on her about that.

Stuart Stevens

No, no.

Tara Palmieri

She ran again.

Stuart Stevens

That's not good. But I think that there's degrees in life here, and I think you can, you can exist in the same world to say that's not good. But it's different than organizing and inspiring a mob to come into the Senate and the House and try to kill people and hang the vice president and end the peaceful transference of power. I think it's bad to run one red light. I think it's worse to run 100 red lights. You can hold both of those. One doesn't give you permission to do the other. And you know, party should be self critical. You should ask questions. You should be able to say that. I think Stacey Abrams,

Tara Palmieri

you have to wonder with Pelosi. He's running for governor. There were problems. He had. He had a reputation. A lot of people knew that he had issues. And why wasn't this dealt with before? He became the front runner, right?

Stuart Stevens

Yeah.

Tara Palmieri

So that's another situation in which the party wasn't aggressive enough to get in front of it. That was another episode of the Tara Palmieri Show. I want to thank my producer, Joshua Friday. I want to thank Abby Baker, who did the booking, producing, editing. She's an all star. Then we've got Adam Stewart, who handles the graphics, Dan Rosen and Nicole Staple. My managers. Thank you again and see you soon. And as always, you can support the show by hitting that subscribe button, going to the barcode on the screen, and becoming a paid subscriber to the red letter. And just comment. Share this with your friends. Tell me how you feel. I think this is a conversation and I want to keep it going.