Chris Ryan

Stitch fix.

Andy Greenwald

Stop shopping.

Chris Ryan

Get styled.

Andy Greenwald

Not today, sweatpants. Somebody's wearing jeans that fit.

Chris Ryan

Wow. No photos, please. I'm just a regular dad who happens to have a stylist.

Andy Greenwald

I really look my best when someone else makes the decisions.

Chris Ryan

Hey, we can all see you two way mirrors. Just share your size, style, and budget, and your stylist sends personalized looks right to your door. Stitch Fix. Get started today@stitch fix.com.

Andy Greenwald

i want to hug you. I'm going to hug you.

Chris Ryan

I'm coming in for a hug. I need support staff to clear the room.

Andy Greenwald

Stand up and walk now.

Chris Ryan

Hello, and welcome to the Watch. My name is Chris Rye, and I am an editor@theringer.com and joining me in the studio, somehow Gambit has returned. It's Andy Greenwald.

Andy Greenwald

What a big show for us today.

Chris Ryan

That's a rich tapestry. Life's rich tapestry.

Andy Greenwald

Yeah.

Chris Ryan

Rich pageant, sure. That's R.E.M. that's Andy Grunwald. I'm Chris Ryan. You can hit us up@thewatchpotify.com we are going to be doing a mailbag. Not this week, I guess. The following week. I'm trying to, like, plot out, like, because I'm going to go away for a little chunk, but we're going to. We're going to have some stuff for you. We're going to. We're going to. We're going to do a special, I think, on Anthony Bourdain coming up.

Andy Greenwald

Okay.

Chris Ryan

And in honor of the movie Tony the watch@Spotify.com the Watchpod underscore on Instagram, ringer-tv on YouTube where we share. Share a little shingle with Prestige TV, who have been covering Cape Fear.

Andy Greenwald

It's like our own Little Heron Hall.

Chris Ryan

It is.

Andy Greenwald

Who owns it?

Chris Ryan

Joanna is the Alice Rivers, I think. And, yeah, that's what we do. We cover pop culture and mostly TV on Mondays and Thursdays. I'm Chris Ryan. Have I mentioned that?

Andy Greenwald

Yeah.

Chris Ryan

We've been podcasting pretty much nonstop for an entire month, so it's starting to get a little gamey here.

Andy Greenwald

We're going to get you through it. I want to thank you. A nation thanks you for dressing in the colors of lettuce to celebrate what we've lost as a country.

Chris Ryan

Not me. I was at Taco Bell all weekend. Just stay in line.

Andy Greenwald

Stay in line. They have to let you eat.

Chris Ryan

Just.

Andy Greenwald

Just, like, the Jordan Peele meme of, like, one trickle of sweat.

Chris Ryan

Today on the show, Andy and I are going to talk about the following. The Doomsday trailer, the X Files possibly being a movie as well as a TV show. We're going to talk a little bit about some Netflix numbers that popped out to me. And we're also going to talk about the release of the classic, cool cult classic television show the Prisoner on the Criterion Channel.

Andy Greenwald

That sounds like a healthy lineup.

Chris Ryan

It is.

Andy Greenwald

I look forward to talking about it with you.

Chris Ryan

Perhaps the most important thing that's happened to this podcast since Donald Trump's reelection. Apparently Rachel Cusk is writing a novel about Natalie Portman.

Andy Greenwald

Yours. Okay. For years.

Chris Ryan

For years.

Andy Greenwald

I start with shit like that. And you're like, why don't we save that for the special segment at the end?

Chris Ryan

I can't even say that that could feasibly go into After Dark. That would be like a crime.

Andy Greenwald

This is all I want to talk about.

Chris Ryan

Literature. And you know what I've always said. Yeah. When it comes to the two Rachel's, I'm a Kushner. That's just how it is.

Andy Greenwald

Two tribes. There's also a Ms. Rachel, I believe.

Chris Ryan

Yes. Yeah.

Andy Greenwald

And she's on the Netflix top 10, God bless her.

Chris Ryan

And. But you're a cuss guy. I really need your comments on this.

Andy Greenwald

You know, I have dabbled on both sides of the aisle.

Chris Ryan

Yeah, but I feel like you're not. You, you don't have a house at Creation League, if you know what I'm saying.

Andy Greenwald

No, I got, I, I, I did do a timeshare there and I got host because that book was.

Chris Ryan

That book is good.

Andy Greenwald

No, it's not.

Chris Ryan

That book's cool.

Andy Greenwald

It's magic. By the way, the best part about this podcast just, I feel like in real time, there's breaking news. Judge granted a temporary restraining order to pause the Paramount Warner Brothers merger. But let's talk about Rachel Cuskins.

Chris Ryan

Well, no, but, like, what do you want me to say to that?

Andy Greenwald

Nothing.

Chris Ryan

Because, like, I'm just on the. We live. We're just.

Andy Greenwald

I'm on the front foot.

Chris Ryan

This is great. Do you. What judge? Judge Rory Bean. Who did that?

Andy Greenwald

What judge? Who appointed that judge? Men of people. Okay, so let's do a little backstory here. I feel like Kya is going to appreciate this as well.

Chris Ryan

Are we leading with this? Because I was going to say, you want a doomsday? Then we can do.

Andy Greenwald

Okay, doomsday. Then we can do Rachel Cusk. Doomsday for Natalie Portman, AKA Jane Foster, formerly Thor. How about that? There we go. Okay. Okay, let's do doomsday. But I do want to talk about

Chris Ryan

the other thing they Dropped the doomsday trailer this morning.

Andy Greenwald

They,

Chris Ryan

and I will say they have got some cheek putting this out the Monday after Odyssey. I'm trying to think of what this would be like.

Andy Greenwald

Sure.

Chris Ryan

This would almost be like, you have like the crazy amazing weekend with your stepdad who just buys you all this stuff for your birthday. And like, alcoholic dad shows up on Monday and is like, hey, I got a bobblehead at the Dodgers game that I snuck into, like, is really struggle meal hours over there at Disney. No offense, guys, but I don't think you can keep selling us the same shit.

Andy Greenwald

Look, the concern level has gone up considerably. Yeah, I'm going to be seeing this movie. I look forward to talking about all the buildup and all the nonsense. But I saw thanks to our friend Mina Kimes that the ice bucket challenge is back. I would like to suggest a new challenge. Marvel put real people in an actual room challenge. The fact that after all of these years and after all of this money and after all of this hype, we're back in the purple halls of nowhere, dog. It's just negative space that's super, super dark.

Chris Ryan

And you can tell like as there has been reporting to sort of at least suggest this. These guys don't know what they're saying. They don't know what scene this is. They don't know when the scene is happening in what two movies stretch that they're in this, like, in indefinite servitude in Atlanta to shoot. Like, they have no ide.

Andy Greenwald

And it's funny because it does. No one will be more happy than I would be if, like, secretly the bones of this movie were strong.

Chris Ryan

And we love the stuff that this movie is going to be about is like a generationally good comic run.

Andy Greenwald

The Jonathan Hickman stuff. Yes. Okay. But here's my feeling watching this trailer because I have been relatively, I think, bullish on this movie. This weekend I was with my children. We were walking in a lovely neighborhood in the northeast of Los Angeles. And across the street, we saw some branding for a place that caught my eye. It was like bright eye catching, had a little cartoon iconography. And I was like, oh, is that a new. Is that a change? Is that something I'm supposed to know? Is that something the kids might like? And I got closer and it looked like a Japanese eatery of some kind. And you know me, I love the foods of the Far East.

Chris Ryan

Yeah.

Andy Greenwald

And I was like, this seems exciting. And I got closer and it had like a cute name and the image of like a cat eating something that looked like sashimi. And I was like, what could be more interesting than this? You have my attention. You have me. Then I got closer, and I saw that it seemed to be an entire store dedicated to selling slices of raw fish inside of cooked tofu skin. Okay, now, who among us doesn't love Yuba? You know, I do.

Chris Ryan

I feel like that was.

Andy Greenwald

But my thing. Hold on.

Chris Ryan

It was a little fair. You set that up so that you could show that you knew what Yuba was.

Andy Greenwald

Do you think anyone who's listened to this podcast for 10 years thought I didn't know the name of tofu skin?

Chris Ryan

Go ahead.

Andy Greenwald

Come on.

Chris Ryan

Go ahead.

Andy Greenwald

My point was, I don't think people want this as much as the store's optimism thinks that it does.

Chris Ryan

Yes.

Andy Greenwald

And that is how I felt being, like, carried along. The hype wins for a few months, and then the reality of Gambit versus Shang Chi in a dark room.

Chris Ryan

So I would.

Andy Greenwald

I don't know if that's what I want or originally.

Chris Ryan

With all due respect to all the characters featured in this. In this trailer, my initial reaction was like, oh, they're doing. This is the trailer for, like. Like, the newer characters. The. Your. What was the Florence P. Movie?

Andy Greenwald

That was Thunderbolts.

Chris Ryan

Thunderbolts.

Andy Greenwald

Did you ever see Thunderbolts?

Chris Ryan

Yes. Yeah. Wasn't that, like, your favorite movie of the year?

Andy Greenwald

I thought it was the most emotionally engaged. It's the most. Yeah, it was the truest emotional movie.

Chris Ryan

Did you send, like, a weird emo text where I was like, I had real feelings and tears watching that?

Andy Greenwald

I did not say tears.

Chris Ryan

That was about people working through their trauma and pain. My favorite subject.

Andy Greenwald

That sounds like me. That does sound like me.

Chris Ryan

I didn't say I thought it was fine. Yeah, but you see a bunch of people like Neymar and Shuri and Ant man and Elena and all these people, and you're like, okay. Like, this is actually when you kind of think about what's happened to this cinematic universe, like, these are the. These are the guys I sort of expected. And there's a brief Cyclops, which I assume is Marsden.

Andy Greenwald

Right, Marsden.

Chris Ryan

And get Gambit, you get. You get these glimpses of people. But I was like, oh, I bet they're going to save the homies for, like, the next trailer. Right? Like, they have to. They have to have, like, Thor and Hulk and all the guys in the next. Whatever the.

Andy Greenwald

Go on.

Chris Ryan

And they had to give away the, like, Steve's back.

Andy Greenwald

They had to give away the Steve one because they had nothing. I mean, Thor is the star of the trailer because he's the only remaining star of the movies that were popular.

Chris Ryan

Right.

Andy Greenwald

And the corny. The corniest thing is that it's not just that your man Steve's back. It's that they just redid the beat that made everyone scream on YouTube that he's worthy.

Chris Ryan

Yeah.

Andy Greenwald

They just did it again.

Chris Ryan

Yeah. Now it has been. Has it been 10 years?

Andy Greenwald

No.

Chris Ryan

How long is that?

Andy Greenwald

Well, seven calendar years, but Covid. So really, it's only been about three or four years. Okay. By my math.

Chris Ryan

Okay. I just. Ben Bradley and all the President's. Ben voice. They haven't got it. Like, whatever. It's a really good story. It's a really hard story to tell. The Secret wars thing that they're probably trying to do here, I, I, I wonder whether or not I'm reacting to, like, maybe. Maybe the thing they're gonna show me is Doom. Maybe. Maybe Doom will save this whole thing.

Andy Greenwald

Ironically, because they showed you the Thing. What, the Thing?

Chris Ryan

Doom?

Andy Greenwald

No, Ben Grimm. The Thing.

Chris Ryan

Yes, they show me the Thing, but maybe doom.

Andy Greenwald

Sorry, that's a little Marvel wordplay.

Chris Ryan

Maybe doom is what's gonna sell this whole project. And maybe. Maybe, like, his accent.

Andy Greenwald

Uh, no.

Chris Ryan

Did you.

Andy Greenwald

I mean, I don't know. Did you like his accent?

Chris Ryan

I didn't know if you had any.

Andy Greenwald

Me watching the studio shows on the World Cup. Yeah, sure. I like that one. Less that one.

Chris Ryan

Yeah.

Andy Greenwald

Look, I mean, they have. They're in an interesting bind where they have.

Chris Ryan

They.

Andy Greenwald

They have not been shy about telling us that, like, one of the planks of this movie is the Thunderbolts. One of the planks of this movie is the. The 2000s Fox X Men. And one of the planks of this movie is the Wakandans and the Fantastic Four. And they're like, that's the big tent that we envision for this party. And to your point, I don't know if it's enough. Now, they've also done the same thing. They've tried to be cute in the same way they were with Infinity War and Endgame, where they're like, spider Man's not in this one, but it'll be in that one. And I think that they have tried to suggest that this will tee up true craziness with everyone back in the next one, but so far, they can't give away. You said Hulk and the gang. I think the story is that Hulk, Spider man, these characters are not Deadpool. I imagine Deadpool will be in this movie, and I imagine that this true sign of desperation will be signaling that in the next four weeks.

Chris Ryan

Or like an excessive amount of Deadpool voiceover, you know, or the Deadpool cut of this trailer. Yeah. Although I don't. I don't know where Ryan Reynolds stands right now. They're playing that weird Mayday movie with him and Kenneth Branagh.

Andy Greenwald

They're just like, do you know what they should do?

Chris Ryan

Dumping that on Apple tv.

Andy Greenwald

You know what the real power move would be? They put Deadpool in the movie and, you know, it's multiversal, whatever. And Deadpool pulls off his mask at one point and it's Justin Baldoni.

Chris Ryan

That would be a curveball.

Andy Greenwald

That would be. Wouldn't that be so sick? Would you be so engaged with that content?

Chris Ryan

I would really.

Andy Greenwald

You would love that.

Chris Ryan

Make me really excited to see.

Andy Greenwald

And then Lady Deadpool would be his Mrs. Baldoni. I don't know her name. Last comment. Because I think this is something we should be tracking between now and December when this movie is released. You have been. You have been bold. You have been brave. You have put the Russo brothers on fraud watch years ago.

Chris Ryan

Yes. Ever since they ruined my beloved novel Cherry.

Andy Greenwald

Yeah.

Chris Ryan

That I liked so much when they. When I was like, these guys again. They don't have it.

Andy Greenwald

So they. They. They came back.

Chris Ryan

They sure did.

Andy Greenwald

And looks like they spent a lot of money in some dark sound stages in London.

Chris Ryan

Yeah.

Andy Greenwald

Yeah. Look, who among us wouldn't want to spend time doing that? But okay, they.

Chris Ryan

They. It's interesting to think that this will become more of a, like, expiring year contract, that these two movies that are supposed to save the MCU will become more of a. Like, how do we get off the doomsday thing? You know what I mean? So crushing so that you can get to X Men. Because that's what this. It's like if, If X Men, if they cast X Men right and they do it right, that will give this whole thing another 10, 15 years maybe of oxygen. But if they don't. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know how much longer Disney's in this weird spot. Like, I'm not predicting that they're going to ramp down the MCU and put it into hibernation for 10 years or something, but they've got to start making things that people actually love again.

Andy Greenwald

Yeah.

Chris Ryan

And they have not done that in a long time.

Andy Greenwald

Well, that's just not. That's not just Marvel. That's their cartoons. That's everything. Yeah. The Moana thing is an abomination. Yeah. That was ridiculous.

Chris Ryan

But Star wars is in the mud. Moana.

Andy Greenwald

Yeah.

Chris Ryan

You know, like these live action adaptations of cartoons. Like Josh tomorrow. Come on, man. Give me a call. I'll help you out.

Andy Greenwald

Do you. I believe the. Well, the rumor is that at Comic Con the X Men cast will be announced.

Chris Ryan

So I got hoodwinked by a tweet this weekend. Where I didn't retweet it.

Andy Greenwald

Hint. By a tweet. My life.

Chris Ryan

But it was like breaking down who's like, who in the X Men? Like, they hears the rumored casting and it was like, Cooper Hoffman is Cyclops. Sadie Sink is Jean Grey. And it keeps going. And then it's like Erica Kirk as Emma Frost. I was like, damn. And I was like, wait,

Andy Greenwald

you leaned in though. It's definitely a way to engage, right?

Chris Ryan

Yeah.

Andy Greenwald

J.D. vance's new baby. Somebody.

Chris Ryan

Yeah.

Andy Greenwald

Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of. There's a lot of smoke around some of the names that I imagine that they are not inaccurate, at least in terms of people having been engaged in. Like my guy Charles Melton, apparently joining the cast. Odessa as Beast. Oh, Odessa Zion as Rogue.

Chris Ryan

Oh, I'd seen Cailee Spaeny as Rogue. Interesting. Different algorithms.

Andy Greenwald

Was that also the Turning Point USA cast list that you seem to be. Okay, it's fine.

Chris Ryan

You know, I just wanted to mention that X Files, the rebooted X Files.

Andy Greenwald

Yeah.

Chris Ryan

Which is coming from Ryan Coogler, is it got announced over like the last couple of days that he's shooting the pilot on 65 millimeter film and that it's going to be a two hour pilot that might hit theaters. And I wanted to ask you about whether or not in your experiences, you know, obviously working as a writer and talking to people, do people seriously think through and think about the theatrical TV hybrid model? Because this is something that is legendarily not really worked. Right. Like people like a certain story because of the way it's told in a certain medium. There's a real like, logic to X Files shows now, their movies. I happen to really like the X Files movies.

Andy Greenwald

Yeah.

Chris Ryan

But they. I wouldn't say that they gave X Files like a whole new birth, you know, like, of. Of life.

Andy Greenwald

I think it's a good question. I. No one thinks or talks about that in terms of like actually a hybrid. Hybrid strategy.

Chris Ryan

Because every once in a while like somebody comes along and they're like, I'm going to do Dark Tower and it's going to be five seasons and two movies that.

Andy Greenwald

That doesn't work. But what does work, I think, and this is, I'm sure they've talked about it, this would be a good topic for the big picture too, is there has been a blurring of lines and maybe I don't mean of standards, but of like putting things in theaters as a way of getting enthusiasm, of building excitement, of signifying something important or major works. And has worked increasingly, I think, as the movie theater, to the degree that it is surviving, is surviving as a place for true unbridled hype and communal experience. So Stranger Things finale, I think premiered in theaters, or at least it was a theater opportunity experience that weekend. I think you were away when I talked about this, but a Netflix, formerly YouTube, then Netflix show that my daughters loved called the Amazing Digital Circus premiered its final episode in theaters a week before it went on Netflix.

Chris Ryan

That is like 25 million, right?

Andy Greenwald

Yes. And some of those millions were mine. No, some of those dollars that added up to the millions were mine. I am not a Stubbs, so I had to pay full boat and that works. So I think in this case, which is a reboot of a property with real cultural legs and memory from a filmmaker, one of the few filmmakers who can open movies.

Chris Ryan

Sure.

Andy Greenwald

I think it's incredibly smart way to get people watching the TV show, especially if, as you said, they're filming it anyway and it's going to look amazing on people's nice televisions. Why not?

Chris Ryan

Yeah, I have no, I mean, I want to see him, Ash Patel and Daniel Deadweiler.

Andy Greenwald

It's such a good cast.

Chris Ryan

Find aliens like, like that can happen in any way. Part of the sort of thrill of watching and even going back to watch X Files is the variance from episode to episode because they were still operating in that 20 per year, 20 per season model. And there's some duds, There are some funny ones. There are some good monsters of the week. There are some great serialized stories. And you know, I don't know whether this will be like an eight episode kind of prestige feel or whether they'll try to recapture some of that original energy. I would have to imagine if Coogler is like spending time with it, it's because he likes the totality of X Files. And not just like, I hope so Fox Mulder's sister got disappeared. You know.

Andy Greenwald

She did.

Chris Ryan

She did.

Andy Greenwald

She did. You know who else's sister disappeared was John Sugar from the television show Sugar.

Chris Ryan

Honestly, the tie in is right there.

Andy Greenwald

It's Avi. I just got chills.

Chris Ryan

Yeah, Sugar Files.

Andy Greenwald

If the X Files. No, but the thing is the new X Files. Get the case. And we're like, oh, my God, Detective John Sugar is going to be outed as an alien by the X Files. But actually the case is, who the fuck greenlit this where he's an alien? And so the investigation is coming for is a Hollywood story. I like that. Yeah, Good, good, good. X Files. Great.

Chris Ryan

Netflix releases its last biannual. What we watched report. Moment of silence for that.

Andy Greenwald

Explain this to me. It's last.

Chris Ryan

They had been releasing biannual reports about what? You know, they're, they're for the sake of transparency. Their. Some of their data on. On.

Andy Greenwald

Right.

Chris Ryan

What shows were being watched at what capacity, where all that stuff. And I think that the idea was that that was supposed to be a nod to not only transparency to customers, but to creators and also to investors in Netflix. It's like, check out the incredible number we had on Stranger Things.

Andy Greenwald

And particularly if it's things like the ones you just mentioned, which are properties they own.

Chris Ryan

Yes. And now they have announced that they're going to go to an annual model. I think the reason this jumped out when I read about it in Deadline was because I know that Trump had sort of been like, why are we doing quarterly financial reports anymore? Which seems like that would benefit somebody like Trump, but not.

Andy Greenwald

Well, isn't he, isn't he too busy selling early market, moving tweets to social.

Chris Ryan

So I, you know, I'm not saying that Netflix is trying to manipulate the market. And as much as I know, I think this, this became of note because we're in this weird moment with Netflix where for our purposes.

Andy Greenwald

Yeah.

Chris Ryan

We have not gone to it as much, you know, like, for what we cover. Yes. Like, there are still entertaining content on the service and they're, they're obviously putting themselves a little bit more in the center of the live television experience by doing all these wrestling and comedy. And, you know, they've got NFL games that they have NBA games.

Andy Greenwald

They had the Home Run Derby.

Chris Ryan

Yeah, they had the Home Run Derby. So they're in the mix now. And that is a bigger deal to them than Ripley, right?

Andy Greenwald

Yeah, sure.

Chris Ryan

But I, I found it very interesting that, you know, not only some of the highlights over the last four years, which Deadline accumulated some stats from, like, basically the era that they were doing biannual reporting. And, you know, there are some interesting things, like among the top 20 shows over the last four years, Eric Bana's Forest Ranger show, Untamed, which nary a person I think other than me watched

Andy Greenwald

say more about that.

Chris Ryan

Well, I like mountains and I like national parks.

Andy Greenwald

I like Eric Bana. Is it a scripted series or does he just go to mountains?

Chris Ryan

Honestly, it probably would have been better and if it was the latter. But it is a scripted series and while I enjoyed it, it is, it gets, it's a real. Like this should have been a three episode show or a two hour movie, but instead now we have four or five episodes that are about like your complicated relationship with your daughter.

Andy Greenwald

Now hold on. Now I'm interested.

Chris Ryan

I think also given the fact that we kind of dropped off Squid Game after season one.

Andy Greenwald

We did.

Chris Ryan

And I could never really tell how popular it was. It is insanely popular and is the, I believe the most recent. There's two seasons of Squid Game in the top three shows of the last four years. Adolescence is number two. And it speaks to like what a phenomenon that was. And I would be shocked knowing that if they didn't figure out a way if not to like bring back that specific character group to do something anthology around it.

Andy Greenwald

I believe it's happening. Yeah.

Chris Ryan

I mean it just is. Like this was lightning in a bottle.

Andy Greenwald

There were rumors that the friend of our pod dear friend Kate Winslet was circling a role in a second season of Adolescence. Really? I don't know if. I don't know that's based on anything. I mean I believe I got that from Turning Point USA as well. But

Chris Ryan

so those are some of the, you know, adolescence. Adolescence. The gentleman did very well over the last four years. Basically all of Stranger Things is in the top 20 for the last four years. From this year and from January to June, this is their top 10.

Andy Greenwald

Okay.

Chris Ryan

His and hers.

Andy Greenwald

Which by the way, I'm shocked by.

Chris Ryan

Me too.

Andy Greenwald

Not, you know, not because we're not stakeholders in Bernthal Holdings Ltd.

Chris Ryan

I'm, I'm, I'm legitimately like, I had no idea that this was a, essentially a blockbuster. It's above Bridgerton.

Andy Greenwald

It was not well received, I would say by critically, but clearly audience, that's

Chris Ryan

the Tessa Thompson John Bernthal thriller. Bridgerton, I Will Find you, which I think is one of the Harlan Cobin shows. Stranger Things Season 5, the last season, which I guess technically came out in 25, right?

Andy Greenwald

I would hope so because otherwise Stranger Things Season 5, Getting Half the numbers of his and hers would be catastrophic.

Chris Ryan

Well, I don't know if it's half the numbers or is it like a decimal point below, but I'm just reading.

Andy Greenwald

Or is it that most people were so excited about the show, they watched it the Minute it came out.

Chris Ryan

Yes. And I also like Netflix's way of calculating its popularity. Could have to do more with, I mean, they say it had 56 million, I think, views.

Andy Greenwald

Sure.

Chris Ryan

I think there's another 50 million who watched it the day it, you know, it came out. And season five also was broken down into such like a long stretch out runaway. I don't know what that is. Teach you a lesson. I don't know what that is. One piece. You know what that is.

Andy Greenwald

Well played.

Chris Ryan

Man on Fire, which, to my, my great regret we did not discuss, was number eight, Ms. Rachel, number nine, and the Night Agent season three, number ten.

Andy Greenwald

Okay.

Chris Ryan

Do you, do you, do you look at that and divine any great learnings?

Andy Greenwald

Not particularly. I mean, I think that everything that we recognize on here, I think tracks to us as what works on Netflix. And certainly we know, one of the reasons we know that is because they make a lot of shows that feel like these shows that fit into certain boxes, things that will work better on their service. I think the bigger conversation here is more about what you were saying in terms of how they are evolving their service and the future that they see for it. The A side to this B side story about how they're going to change their reporting is they missed their earnings again and their stock tumbled considerably this week. It was, it dropped. Their stock dropped 9.5%. It's the, it's the second straight miss that they've had. And the financial reporting of which I'm responsible for none and I don't fully understand, said that it was mostly to do with a reassessment of what the company's strengths and plans are after the failed Warner Brothers bid, which I think perplexed investors and sort of mixed results for what they care about in terms of the expansion. That's why the other story this week that was bubbling was people were asking Netflix, when are you going to launch a fast service? When are you going to launch an ad supported service? When are you going to.

Chris Ryan

They have some ad tiers and now they've talked about having some always on channels on Netflix.

Andy Greenwald

Right. So what? Seem there's two ways to look at it. One way to look at it is Netflix is a juggernaut and can experiment with almost anything. And it is still kind of de facto streaming TV for most households. And that's an advantage that the other companies can never reach, a gulf they can never reach. The other version of looking at it is they're trying anything. They are trying anything to try to get some purchased like get their boots on the ground of something sustainable because the go, go, go. We will just keep spending to show growth, to get investor confidence that inevitably hits some sort of a ceiling. And again, this is not me concern trolling Netflix, but it is interesting in terms of its identity and the way we always approach it from what we do here is what is the scripted television like? What are their calling cards? What is their business in that? And I wonder if internally, what the ratio of. What's the Venn diagram of Netflix's value and growth areas when you're actually in the boardrooms? Is it, how do we expand into live programming and sports to become the de facto hub? Is it, do we do a commercial tier? How loud are the voices saying, no, no more Stranger Things original shows on Broadway. Literally, though, like, in terms of like merch and K Pop Demon Hunters and becoming a brand in that sense, I don't know. But it's an interesting moment to see a company that is absolutely dominant struggling. And I'm putting that in quotes, it is not struggling, but in terms of

Chris Ryan

its identity, it's just positive now. It's just one of those, if I remember the most recent thing I read, it was like, Netflix is actually making money. It's just that it's stock price and it's like perception to the town and to Wall street is a little bit rusty right now.

Andy Greenwald

And when you return to opacity, when you get less transparent, let's say with your, with your data, which is what they're doing by going from twice a year to once a year, that will make people skittish.

Chris Ryan

I think my big learning from this is there is now a Netflix genre and that it's not quite CBS but bingeable, and it's not quite like Apple, but a little bit faster and dirtier and, and you know, I, I, there's something about this, the cre, the, this sort of like, there's a lot of grabby thrillers.

Andy Greenwald

Yeah.

Chris Ryan

There's a lot of genre stuff, but genre stuff that isn't like, I, I don't find particularly like what I go

Andy Greenwald

to for genre, like the Coban industry.

Chris Ryan

Yeah. Or maybe even Night Agent, which I think, like, I watched a little bit of the first season and thought it was fine. And, and that was, but the idea that it's a juggernaut show is kind of surprising to me. But it's interesting because you and I spend so much time talking about these HBO shows and talking about these Apple shows and, you know, other streamers, and this is really Obviously, like, dwarfs a lot of what we talk about in terms of how many people are watching this, but I don't really find many shows there to talk about and, or to really like, interrogate. And maybe that's my failing as a, as a commentator, you know, but there maybe is like a transition here where you're seeing the end of the Peter Friedlander era, who was there when they were putting up Ripley, and maybe some of their international purchases were more interesting. Yeah. And he was there for a very long time. Now he's at Amazon. And I don't think they really care about whether or not they win best Drama at the Emmys. I mean, like, I think adolescence is really nice for them. I think Baby Ranger is really nice for them. Baby Ranger has done historically well for them over the last four or five years. But I don't really see a ton of stuff on here where they're like, oof, wish we could be competing with White Lotus this year.

Andy Greenwald

You know, the other thing that they've abandoned for the most part is third seasons and increasingly like two seasons is starting to seem like a lot. And, and that is because they are so cutthroat about the data and they're like, the numbers go down.

Chris Ryan

Well, they're abandoning those for the shows that we might watch. They're not abandoning it for like Ransom Canyon and Virgin River.

Andy Greenwald

No, but, but those shows don't get seven years.

Chris Ryan

There's a couple that do well, like

Andy Greenwald

Lincoln Lawyer, I think, just got cut down after five, and that's a huge show for them.

Chris Ryan

Yeah, but they, they have like a kind of weird, like, middle aged CW kind of show where it's like a guy who has a general story.

Andy Greenwald

You know what the CW stands for? Conventional Wisdom.

Chris Ryan

Yeah. They have like those shows where it's like, she's a divorced mom and he, he bridles horses.

Andy Greenwald

First of all, Minka Kelly deserves paychecks, so I think that's awesome. 2 Inside Baseball on this. Years ago, when Netflix was getting into scripted, I remember there would be interviews with Tina Fey and they'd be like, oh, Tina, you've only made shows for NBC and now you're making this case. It was Kimmy Schmidt.

Chris Ryan

Yeah.

Andy Greenwald

And they were like, what are you learning? You know what, what insights are you getting? And she's like, they tell us nothing. We know nothing about who's watching our show or what they think about it. We just deliver it and we don't have to do 21 minutes anymore. We can go longer. I don't think that's necessarily the case anymore. But I recently was having a conversation with the head of a studio who works with Netflix and his point was they remain incredibly opaque about algorithmic data, about like, who, what, when. The thing that drives every decision they make is next, next, next. That is their note. And you can tell by the shows that they make is will you end on a beat so undeniable that people

Chris Ryan

are going to have to watch the

Andy Greenwald

next thing, the next one. And it's interesting to. I would, I would put this out to our audience too. If you're watching a show on a different service, maybe even one that drops shows weekly, but you start to feel that cadence, look in the trades and see who is bidding on it. Because there are examples out there of shows that were expressly developed for Netflix or for that model that have ended up on other services on Apple or whatever.

Chris Ryan

Yeah.

Andy Greenwald

That don't do it. Yeah. And I wonder if that changes your interaction.

Chris Ryan

And on the flip side of that, I will say Tina Fey, her most recent creation for Netflix is the Four Seasons, oddly has lots of like grabby, kind of like, are they gonna break up moments where like most of the show is like, people making kind of like affectionate mid funny jokes about Thanksgiving dinner. And then at the end it's like, but whose baby is this?

Andy Greenwald

You know, like, did you watch the second season?

Chris Ryan

I did, yeah.

Andy Greenwald

We don't talk about this.

Chris Ryan

Well, because there's like a kind of television watching experience that I have with my wife where we watch half hour comedies as a kind of a come down, like a bedtime routine. Yeah, like, as like a. Oh, I.

Andy Greenwald

It was weird in retrospect. It was weird when you invited me over that time, like the sort of like, let's settle right, right in the middle, guys.

Chris Ryan

Yeah.

Andy Greenwald

What's on tonight?

Chris Ryan

I mean, I, I invite. That's what the invite's about.

Andy Greenwald

Truly. I, I have watched into season two of four Seasons, but I like you. I'm like, I, I don't really have anything insightful to say.

Chris Ryan

You're different than me in that. I don't think that you want to watch television to feel completely brain dead. Like, I think you're always like, is this good? And I'm like, I don't really care. You know, like there is a kind of television that I will watch that is essentially like watching pain dry.

Andy Greenwald

Yeah.

Chris Ryan

And sometimes I just need to turn it off, man. It's on a lot.

Andy Greenwald

The brain.

Chris Ryan

Yeah.

Andy Greenwald

Yeah. I'm trying to think if I. No, not really. I mean, I Think that the equivalent for that for me is, like, ending the night with, like, my younger daughter's really, really obsessed with, like, treasure hunting. The last 10 years of the Simpsons talked about this. So she'll be like, there's a funny one in episode.

Chris Ryan

I'm like that with svu. Yeah.

Andy Greenwald

Are you?

Chris Ryan

Yeah. I'm like, there's a cult in this one. Let's go.

Andy Greenwald

That's nice, though. We. I feel like that there's some servicey elements we could be exploiting in this.

Chris Ryan

How to watch svu, a deplorable person. Let's talk about how's the dragon? I was very curious to know how you would feel. I don't even. Did we talk about the last one together, or was I gone?

Andy Greenwald

I think I referred to it in passing.

Chris Ryan

You were gone, and then I was. I think I was.

Andy Greenwald

Talk to Joe about it.

Chris Ryan

Yes.

Andy Greenwald

And I believe I use the words fucking interminable.

Chris Ryan

How did you feel about this one?

Andy Greenwald

Even longer.

Chris Ryan

Yeah.

Andy Greenwald

It is a absolute struggle for me, and I don't get a lot of pleasure out of it. However, I do have three points of light because I do like to be positive. Is there anything about this episode that you would like to highlight or shout out? Because the feeling that I dislike most that the show services mostly now is this, like, inexorable churn towards plot points. And I feel the weight of characters interacting just to get to the next plot point with very little room for brightness or light or even a feeling of, obviously nothing about the show is improv, but any kind of spark as opposed to churning towards the gloom and doom that we are headed towards. And I find that just that is a television experience that I do not enjoy.

Chris Ryan

I wouldn't get your hopes up about this being an upbeat show. So, I mean, like, obviously there's. There's going to be probably a degree to which the. The. The storytelling and the tone of the show mirrors what its eventual conclusion is. I will say that the reason why I've been a little bit more forgiving or into these last couple of episodes than you is that I am far more interested than this in this particular. Particular set of characters that have been kind of introduced over the. Maybe this season especially. I wish they were the original lineup. Like, I wish this had been three seasons with these people rather than three episodes as they've kind of broken out of the Targaryen Valyrian.

Andy Greenwald

Yeah.

Chris Ryan

Camp and started to bring in Starks and different people coming to petition Rhaenyra. And, like, I'm like, that Guy's interesting. This person's interesting. What's. I kind of now wish that this entire show had been a little bit more outside the walls of King's Landing.

Andy Greenwald

Listen.

Chris Ryan

And I can see what they're trying to do. I think the Rhaenyra, like, I. In some ways, I think what they're doing with Rhaenyra is more surehanded than what they did with Daenerys. I don't even know if this is a controversial statement, but depicting how someone starts to become undone.

Andy Greenwald

Absolutely. And, you know, that is in a positive note because she has reclaimed the throne and has had not just a number of episodes, but that one episode in particular that was the real season standout.

Chris Ryan

Yes.

Andy Greenwald

There's room to maneuver a performance towards something and not indicate. You know, I think one of the nice things about My God, Emma d' Arcy performance is that it's not telegraphing. It is quite present, almost to the point of, like, you kind of feel like Daemon being like, you're still hung up on that.

Chris Ryan

Well, she's being suffocated by, like, the fact that every. Every conversation she has opens up a trap door of another problem.

Andy Greenwald

Yes.

Chris Ryan

Yeah.

Andy Greenwald

But, yeah, I think that's a very smart observation about something that this show does is. Is able to take more interest in,

Chris Ryan

like, Ormond and Daeron, the Stark Wolves, Criston Cole and Gwayne specifically being, like, guerrilla army. Even, like, random scenes where it's like, Jeyne of Arryn, you know, Jeyne, Arryn of the Vale or whatever her name is. Like, she's, like, kind of got something.

Andy Greenwald

She's got spark.

Chris Ryan

But I think it would be cool. There's probably not enough plot to have done what's the Veil been doing the entire time the show is going on.

Andy Greenwald

Well, exactly in what you said, there's not enough textual plot. Like, yeah, a creative enterprise that was differently enabled and empowered could come up with a good story.

Chris Ryan

Sure.

Andy Greenwald

You know, to set there in the backdrop of something. But that's not the show.

Chris Ryan

It's an adaptation. I mean, what are you gonna do? Right?

Andy Greenwald

Well, there's some things you could do, but that is not the remit of this show. And I'm not gonna sit here for the next year.

Chris Ryan

Sunshine and graham crackers. What's going on? What is your love?

Andy Greenwald

I said, because. Let me just do one more kidney punch before we get started. Just that I'm watching the show week to week, and there are moments where I'm like, man, they're hanging some of these actors out to dry. And the dude who plays Aemond, and when he got his script, he's sitting in his trailer and he's putting on his wig or they're brushing out his long locks.

Chris Ryan

I think it's wig.

Andy Greenwald

And it's like, we don't know.

Chris Ryan

I mean, I would imagine it's a wig.

Andy Greenwald

It's probably a wig.

Chris Ryan

Really damage your hair, bleaching it like that.

Andy Greenwald

And people do things for their art, Chris, you know, and he's like, okay, what am I gonna do today? And it's just like, Aemond wakes up half nude, screaming about dragons and hell in a haunted bed. And he's like, yeah, I can see that. He's like, all right, go. And he's like, no, mother. Like, can we get a little more on the. No. And it's like, dude, Targaryen, he's not

Chris Ryan

gonna be managing a fantasy Premier League team. Like, I don't know what you want him to be doing.

Andy Greenwald

That's not what I wanted to be doing. It's just like, first of all, we are fucking back in the haunted house again with the trees.

Chris Ryan

I am not a Harrenhal guy.

Andy Greenwald

It's so boring. But second, it's just like Grace Rankin

Chris Ryan

and Alice, and she's.

Andy Greenwald

Gail Rankin is here on my list.

Chris Ryan

Sorry, Gail Rankin.

Andy Greenwald

But it's just like, there are incredible performers elevating almost every scene. And I think that if you just look at the bones of it, some of these scenes are pretty thankless in terms of the opportunities for actors to do what they do best and to enliven something. So I wanted to shout out three performers on this show who I look forward to seeing every time they're on the screen. And one I have to highlight because it is a zero to hero arc, which is our guy, Fabian Frankel as Criston Cole. I'm not, you know. You know, I'm. If nothing else, I'm accountable.

Chris Ryan

And how much of this Is Detective Grasso?

Andy Greenwald

50%.

Chris Ryan

Yeah. The key for House of the Dragon characters is for them to appear on episodes of Task.

Andy Greenwald

The key for House of the Dragon characters is for me to have seen them be good in other things and then look forward to seeing if they're able to just like, flash like a signs of life, come rescue me kind of thing. Criston Cole is a thankless part I felt, for the first two years. And because of that, I don't think we thought much of the actor playing him, which was unfair, as it turns out.

Chris Ryan

You should speak for yourself.

Andy Greenwald

You were a little Bit with me until you heard him talk like he was from, like, an upper Broomhall.

Chris Ryan

I thought he was cool.

Andy Greenwald

You thought he was cool?

Chris Ryan

I thought he was interesting and cool, yeah.

Andy Greenwald

What was the coolest thing about Ser Criston Cole? I'll wait. Just like. Just riff a little bit.

Chris Ryan

Pretty loyal. Loyal guy.

Andy Greenwald

He does work above his, like, his duties. You know what I mean? Like, he's willing to.

Chris Ryan

He goes the extra 10%.

Andy Greenwald

He does, yeah. This season, putting taking him out of the claustrophobic court and making him be a warrior in a Tim o' Brien novel basically works for him. I'm absolutely watching him through the eyes of seeing what he was capable of doing as another deeply misguided soldier in Task. But I thought this episode in particular, like, when his arc is kill your horse, help your friends with his leeches, and then convince everyone to go on a suicide run. That's something an actor can work with. And I thought that he has, like, his. What I mistook for, like, lack of charisma in this episode, you realize, is kind of a steady, slow burn. And I thought he's great. And I enjoyed the scenes with Gwain because we love Freddy Fox.

Chris Ryan

Absolutely. They have the best, I think, among the best chemistry, like those two. And then Larys and Aegon.

Andy Greenwald

Yeah, I agree. And it is a constant reminder. And again, I don't want to sit here as I do for weeks and years and seasons of these shows being like, oh, we know better, because we

Chris Ryan

see something obviously, just for the crew. I have stipulated that we do not need to do this. I think you're interested in the project and how they.

Andy Greenwald

And what I mean is, I've decided to truly. I know I don't always sound like it, but I'm trying to look for the helpers. Look to the helpers. And, like, when you see good, interesting actors with chemistry paired off or so much of the season devoted to them, that is not a fluke. I think that the people making the show are empowered to do that because they are also interested in seeing what the people who can deliver can. Can do. So I really like those scenes. Big Tom, Glenn Carney, guy who plays Aegon, like, he is just. Even with only one ear and one kind of stumpy ear hole. One of the more charismatic actors on

Chris Ryan

the show have had season tickets since Rogue Heroes.

Andy Greenwald

Yeah. And I talked about this. I saw him in All My Sons in the West End, and he had a very, very brief appearance. He has the smallest part. And when he comes on, he just. He's Just a lefty reliever coming in, just throwing gas.

Chris Ryan

Just West End, big time. To me, that's okay.

Andy Greenwald

Well, I love theater and you like action shows, but that's. We make it work. What's your take on the Aegon storyline?

Chris Ryan

It's hard to talk about because I've read ahead. So I like it. I like that they are pairing him with another person who is now deformed and is kind of like, this is the way the world sees you and this is the way you can still get ahead. Each one of these plot lines, each one of these planks of the show at any given moment does not have enough going on for a full episode.

Andy Greenwald

It's true.

Chris Ryan

And the way that they've chosen to do it, which is cross cutting across these, say, five story lines that they've got going, I think it's probably the way they can get to eight episodes of television and eight hours and 40 minutes or nine hours, however long the runtime winds up being. But to your point about who are you saying that. Oh, maybe it was Aemond, where you're just like, what am I doing today? It's like they don't really do much different from episode to episode. I mean, for as much as I love the Rhaenyra episode two episodes ago, she is pretty much doing the same exact space.

Andy Greenwald

It was a different way of looking at that. Yeah.

Chris Ryan

And I like it. It's okay. You know, but there is not a. There is neither a propulsion because it's such a breakneck show.

Andy Greenwald

Right.

Chris Ryan

Nor is there a concept of what it needs to be to be episodic, to keep this thing kind of feeling light. And I'm committed to this and I like it. And I kind of just want to see how they execute some of the stuff that I think is coming or some of the stuff I know is coming. But it's really weird. It's a very specific kind of writing that I don't know if it would work if there wasn't this sort of like, carrot being dangled of, like, there's some big battles coming.

Andy Greenwald

And I do think my feelings about. I mean, the assignment of the show was always gonna be challenging because it was the inverse of Game of Thrones. And the challenge of the show is what are you gonna do when the dragons aren't the main characters of an episode?

Chris Ryan

Yeah.

Andy Greenwald

And I think that I prefer it, though. I prefer that generally. But I think the show has struggled to answer that question successfully week to week over the season.

Chris Ryan

So you would rather have people be like, Ah, Syrax, my beautiful beast. You know, like, keep going.

Andy Greenwald

I would pay to watch you do that longer. No, I'm not arguing four more dragons. I'm saying that House of the Dragon season three, despite being functionally better than season two in many, many ways and much more professionalized and capable of higher highs and honestly, a higher floor as well, I think week to week, I think that it is suffering post Night of the Seven Kingdoms because, oh, this

Chris Ryan

is like dropping Doomsday after the Odyssey.

Andy Greenwald

It's exact. Thank you. It's just more that, like Night of the Seven Kingdoms almost casually introduced us to different archetypes, different arcs and different emotions that we heretofore did not know were possible in Westeros. And House of the Dragon is still saddled with storylines like I will teach the child to stab an innocent man in the heart that will show him the way of the world. And I feel like that is a lesson that we have all learned repeatedly over the last 15 years on television and otherwise. And so. But that is what the show is. I mean, that is the world that they're existing in. And I think it's trying to iterate honestly and in good faith. The last performance you mentioned is Gayle Rankin, who is a really good actor from Perry Mason and from glow, and she's playing Alys, the Witch Queen of Harrenhal. And again, this might be like prior fandom. I just think she's a cool performer, but she has a little bit of twinkle in her eye. Like she does have some wit. When all these people keep coming to attack her and she's lying to them, that suggests some life or some plan.

Chris Ryan

When the last group of raiders come, I think she kind of lets herself get taken captive to entice Aemond to regain his spirit. Sometimes I'll be like, oh, I don't know what to say about this. And then you jump in and I'm like, that's right.

Andy Greenwald

Because I like to save my friend. It's like that human. Was it the human giant sketch about the most successful moving company in New York where to move the piano, they put a child underneath it. And then the mother shows up and goes, my child. And lifts the piano because there's no strength greater than a child in peril. That's what's going on here. Just real quick, that's a Lannister that shows up with Aegon.

Chris Ryan

Yes.

Andy Greenwald

And that's the Lannister who was on the boat.

Chris Ryan

Yeah, it's Tyland or Jason. I can't remember which one One got their head cut off, so he's definitively dead. We are getting into a dangerous period with this show where if they don't show you the body, it probably means the guy's still alive. And they've done that twice this season. They did with Corlys and once with this guy.

Andy Greenwald

Yeah, yeah, you want habeas corpus.

Chris Ryan

I'm just saying, like, this is why the Stannis freaks from Game of Thrones still are among us, where they're just like, we never saw it, brother.

Andy Greenwald

So this is actually this. This came up the other week. We were texting this. The Stannis Melisandre stuff is so interesting in retrospect because we, and I say we, like the audience of Game of Thrones, spent so much time with those characters. And in the new parlance of television, which is really about return on investment, it's like, well, what was that for? What was the point? And it's such an interesting and more contemporary framing that just invalidates 40, 50 years of television.

Chris Ryan

Sure.

Andy Greenwald

Now you could make the case. I don't actually know this, but, like, I think that the Stannis story was already ended in the books when they were telling it on screen.

Chris Ryan

So people were like, oh, I can't wait to see, like, how we know

Andy Greenwald

that he's not a real film.

Chris Ryan

Tender film version of what I've been. Yes.

Andy Greenwald

So. But we also still enjoy the time spent on it. It's like Red Wedding and Steven Delane was really good in that part, but, like, the Melisandre thing was still questionable. And then she shows up later because

Chris Ryan

there's like, the woman that never popped up in the show that was supposed to be maybe Catelyn Stark.

Andy Greenwald

Oh, Lady Stoneheart.

Chris Ryan

Yeah. Yeah. That's not Melisandre.

Andy Greenwald

Can I say, though, that, like, in retrospect, my favorite thing of our, we had a real rich Thrones adventure. We were on television, we were talking about it, and still every time Jason or Mallory would be like, well, you know, they're not doing Lady Stoneheart. I'd be like, can you just talk me through that again?

Chris Ryan

And they're like, it's not Lady Stoneheart level, but Nettles is supposed to be, you know, is in Fire and Blood.

Andy Greenwald

You say, you know, I do not.

Chris Ryan

Yes, sir.

Andy Greenwald

Who is Nettles?

Chris Ryan

Nettles is basically being folded into Reyna's storyline, I believe.

Andy Greenwald

Who is.

Chris Ryan

It's just another character who's like a dragon rider.

Andy Greenwald

Greg Nettles.

Chris Ryan

Yeah.

Andy Greenwald

Is he a pitcher?

Chris Ryan

Craig.

Andy Greenwald

Craig. Craig Nettles.

Chris Ryan

And I think he was A utility infielder. Yeah, Like a kind of Jose Okendo type.

Andy Greenwald

I think we both closed our computers. No way of knowing, but. No, but like the Lady Stoneheart thing where I'd be like, oh, my God, I'm still shaken up by the Red Wedding. Like, that was one of the most intense things ever on television.

Chris Ryan

Stoneheart.

Andy Greenwald

And they're like, well, you know, Caitlyn comes back, I'm like, maybe it's good to do an adaptation and cherry pick a little bit. But. But anyway, you get what I'm saying in terms of our conversation about House of the Dragon, because it is a history quote, unquote, because it is being made now. There isn't room for these little narrative. I don't even call them flights of fancy, but it's like little exploratory runs, you know, what do they say when watching the World Cup? They're like, oh, a lovely little questioning run.

Chris Ryan

I think that's why the Aegon and Larys storyline is so pleasant to watch, because it has so many Thrones echoes, because it feels like Brienne on the road with Jaime or whatever, you know,

Andy Greenwald

but it also feels, again, I could be very much mistaken about this and please, you won't spoil it. I know, but like, it does not feel connected in a way that it feels like it is moving in some. Towards something unexpected or new. Yeah, that's probably not the case, but I do just generally, that's probably one of the causes of my lingering allergy to the show, is that you just don't feel that spark of people discovering something as writers or performers or whatever. It's more claustrophobic.

Chris Ryan

So we got three more.

Andy Greenwald

Yeah, yeah.

Chris Ryan

Which feels like it's really a rich vein for us. Do you want to talk about the Prisoner?

Andy Greenwald

Yeah. Set this. I love it. I love it when a 4pm text comes with some good ideas.

Chris Ryan

Yeah. So the Prisoner is a show from 1967 and 1968 from England that has been a little bit of like a cult classic in the TV world for decades. It's popped up here and there on physical media. There's some, like a UK dvd, there's a Blu Ray, there was a box set. I think Arrow might have done it. It's just one of those shows that if. If we were a proper country, we would probably be able to create a criterion channel for television. And maybe that's a project you and I can do on some late summer Dead week is like, what would we put in, like our first 10 or 15 or 20 shows and it's not always the best, but it, you know, these, Criterion does these physical media releases for films and obviously gives the films like a kind of unified aesthetic in terms of their graphic design. And now it's become this kind of almost like this label or brand that people are like, I blind buy the thing on Criterion because it means film excellence. It means like true exploration of what's great about the cinematic arts. And we don't really have that for television. And a lot of that is because television has largely been a function of selling advertising over the years. And there's all these complicated rights issues. And it's like a studio made it, but sold it to a network that then offloaded it to this other network or streamer. And this is why we wait around decades for Homicide to show up on streaming. Or My so Called Life still isn't on streaming.

Andy Greenwald

Right. Like it's music rights too.

Chris Ryan

Right, it's music rights. So this show, the Prisoner, is a little bit different than say Homicide or Misel called Life. It's more of a, I would say, Acquired Taste is also a cult classic, you know, and it is hugely influential. It's a 17 episode run, I believe, of two seasons, two series. It was created by Patrick.

Andy Greenwald

One series.

Chris Ryan

One series. So 17 episodes, one series. Patrick McGoohan, who's the creator, is also the star and he worked with David Markstein, who I believe directed a lot of it. And it is essentially a sci fi spy show. It's the easiest way I can describe it and has been credited for having a huge influence on X Files, on Twin Peaks, on the Truman show, on Inception and on the Matrix.

Andy Greenwald

I would throw another one in there after watching it last night. Which is the good place. Yeah, like intensely so.

Chris Ryan

Intensely so. And I, I think it's like just a really cool thing for people to check out. It was very funny last night. I was watching a couple of episodes and I had initially sort of been like, do you. To my wife. I was like, do you want to watch this, this show, the Prisoner with me? And she was like, what's it about? And I told her and she was like, no, no thanks.

Andy Greenwald

She was like, why don't you invite Andy over to wind down with that one?

Chris Ryan

She heard it in the other room and she was like, is this old timey? And I was like, no, it's old.

Andy Greenwald

Yeah.

Chris Ryan

And she was like, I thought it was new. And they were doing old timey. And I was like, no, I mean, it's just the. He's like, is that Old timey now, I guess. Yeah, but the cutting style, the art direction, the music, it's very much of its time. Yes, but it's also, I mean, you can see Nolan editing patterns in the Prisoner. So it stands to reason that Nolan has twice gotten pretty close to remaking it as a film, as has Ridley Scott. So this is a really interesting show. The entire series is up on the Criterion channel, if you have it. But I just thought we could talk a little bit about this as like a touchstone in modern television.

Andy Greenwald

It's also worth noting the show was remade in 2009 for AMC.

Chris Ryan

Ian McKellen, Jim Caviezel.

Andy Greenwald

Jim Caviezel was not particularly well regarded, certainly not in the shadow of its predecessor.

Chris Ryan

Right.

Andy Greenwald

I was really thrilled to do this because as someone who grew up reading TV Guide for the articles, this was a reference that dominated.

Chris Ryan

Yeah.

Andy Greenwald

I don't think it's possible to overstate how influential. Not even the show itself because it was hard to watch for a number of decades, but how influential the idea of the show was that it was a hallmark of any even half assed article name checking when the Times TV has been bold or interesting. And so when Twin Peaks came out at the end of the 80s and early 90s and I was obsessed with it, the Prisoner was back in the conversation.

Chris Ryan

Yeah, because Mark Frost was like, there's no Twin Peaks without the Prisoner, basically.

Andy Greenwald

But what's interesting, and I think that I'd seen clips maybe or had sought something out or maybe it was on pbs, but I definitely have never been able to sit down and watch it like I just did yesterday. And kudos to Criterion because it is on Criterion. It looks amazing, it looks fantastic. So that's really exciting too to see it in the way that. Even better probably than it's ever been seen before. But it was very interesting to see something that is so deeply influential to artistically minded and aesthetically minded art and television in particular. But it is not a one to one in any sense. There is nothing. Because the Twin Peaks thing is it's David lynch on television. But then the idea that there was even a small safe space on television for something that didn't feel right, you know, that felt off, that felt confusing, that didn't hold your hand. You owe that to the Prisoner, I think, above anything else.

Chris Ryan

And the setup for the show is very, very straightforward. In a brilliant pre title sequence which they replay, which is wordless, a spy resigns from MI6 or whatever and drives home to his place in Westminster in a very normal car in A very spy car. And he goes into his flat and he's packing, right, Is gassed and falls asleep. And when he wakes up, he is in a seaside village, place unknown side of the Iron Curtain, unknown side of reality, unknown. And in this village, everything is accounted for. It's a very good place. Like Andy mentioned. Like, you know, you go to the labor exchange and you get a job and you go do these things. And there's like a kind of political class and there is. Senior citizens are taken care of there.

Andy Greenwald

There's a little cafe and stuff, beaches.

Chris Ryan

Everybody is wearing these sort of brightly colored, like kind of very geometric patterned capes and cloaks and stocks and frocks. But, you know, obviously this rough and tumble spy is like, where am I? What's going on? Who's in charge here? How do I get out of here? And I'll just say in the first episode you are introduced to the idea that not only is there constant surveillance and a lot of subterfuge going on in this village, but a. A blobby white balloon floats over the village and is capable of sucking people into it and killing them as it continues.

Andy Greenwald

That was the part that engaged my nine year old the most. Oh yeah, the horror balloon.

Chris Ryan

Yeah.

Andy Greenwald

And grown men running from balloons. Yes, I think she liked that.

Chris Ryan

But, you know, there's parts of it that are cut and feel like, I don't know, like late 60s mod culture films.

Andy Greenwald

You know, the other thing that I would say that you should watch just for reference is Austin Powers.

Chris Ryan

Sure.

Andy Greenwald

Because there's something of that to it.

Chris Ryan

Very, very, very, very influenced, I think

Andy Greenwald

probably by this, Patrick McGoohan's performance, especially in the first one too, where he just like, just yells at everyone.

Chris Ryan

Yeah.

Andy Greenwald

And so the other interesting thing about it is, you know, it is intentionally surreal and the surreality is both aesthetic and cultural, like for the like, Mad Carnaby street vibes, but also very much about like surveillance and who do you work for and who sent you and what is truth and. And things that happen in the first few episodes that probably don't register as much to us in like a post Google Translate society. But like, someone speaks French and then someone responds in German and it's like, where do your allegiances lie? Who is responsible for this? Which is much more Cold War coded. But the other thing that I found really interesting is there is no. This is when it gets into like James Joyce territory. Did you know that there is no agreed upon order to watch this series? Yes. So the second episode, the one that Aired second, the one that Criterion calls episode two. Episode two, it's called the Chimes of Big Ben, was the fifth produced episode. And instantly when you watch it, you are once again discomfited and unclear about what's going on for reasons that are intentional. Like, that's the vibe of the show. And one of the conceits of the show is that our main character, Number Six, is being bossed around and surveilled by the person who is nominally in charge. Number two. There is no number one. Number Two just says, like, you could make this all go away if you told me why you resigned. But in all 17 episodes, number two is played by a different guest star.

Chris Ryan

Yes.

Andy Greenwald

So number two is always different. So you can be forgiven if you're a little bit confused, but then you keep watching episode two. And Patrick McGoohan's number six has a completely different personality than he did in the first episode. He's much funnier and he's much more charming and he's much more willing to sort of play along, honestly, more like a spy. And it makes it a more pleasant watch. But it's also like, is this the fifth episode or the second? What is time? And is that on purpose? So there's a rabbit hole inside the rabbit hole.

Chris Ryan

Yeah. And I think it's a different era of making television where they maybe. Maybe they got a note that was like, this guy needs to be nicer. You know, like, this guy needs to be nice.

Andy Greenwald

And because of that, and not just a note, it's of an era when BBC or whoever put it, I think it was BBC broadcast it because I don't think there were any other channels.

Chris Ryan

Yeah.

Andy Greenwald

Was like, we're going to put this one on next.

Chris Ryan

Sure.

Andy Greenwald

Because that's what we're going to do.

Chris Ryan

Yeah.

Andy Greenwald

But it is. Here's the thing that I really liked the most about it, and I wish that there. I wish that you could take this piece and inject it into contemporary television. I have no idea. I've not done the deep research. I have not watched the whole series. I have no IDEA if Patrick McGoohan and his collaborators launched the series knowing, quote, unquote, the answers, if they had a plan, you know, just like the vocabulary that sprung up around Lost. What I do know is that there is such a swinging sense of fun and discovery and gamesmanship in a playful way, not like in an aggressive, I'm going to frustrate Reddit way. That is so welcome. And one of the reasons I think that exists is because of the way that it's shot and scored because contemporary television is so dependent on. In the same way movies are, I think, as well, of, like, having the way that you film it, cut it, and most importantly, score it, indicate heavy importance.

Chris Ryan

Sure.

Andy Greenwald

Like, this is ominous now.

Chris Ryan

Well, there's also, like, a real emphasis in television, I think, on coverage and making sure, like, you got that shot, that shot, that shot, and that way also, if they want to meddle with it or if there's a supervising producer or whatever, they can go in and do their show. Whereas there, especially in this first episode, like, I can't imagine there was that much coverage because everything is this, like, high angled shot through of a Welsh village. You know what I mean? So it's just very. It's a very disorienting and pleasantly disorienting show.

Andy Greenwald

Apologies to our friends. And it was not BBC. It was ITV.

Chris Ryan

Oh, didn't know they were around in the late 60s.

Andy Greenwald

A little bit independent.

Chris Ryan

Yeah.

Andy Greenwald

But do you know what I mean, though? This sense that, like, one of the things that contemporary shows do and there's a reason why you do it, is like, you want to give people enough rope to keep climbing. So you want them to know that they have a plan, that there's something to be revealed. But there's a playfulness. This does actually segue from our House of the Dragon conversation that there is a playfulness possible in discovery that for all the things the show does. And I'm not saying it's for everyone, and I'm not saying it's, like, linear or like a good hang all the time, but there is a sense of playfulness that is kind of infectious if you can get into it. Like, you don't need to be doing your homework necessarily. You just kind of have to go with it. And that's not a bad feeling to have with tv. It is not so common anymore.

Chris Ryan

Before we get out of here, can we do it?

Andy Greenwald

Can we talk about it?

Chris Ryan

So let's talk about Rachel Cuskai has

Andy Greenwald

been waiting for an hour of this nonsense.

Chris Ryan

Did you know that we were gonna talk about this today? No, but I'm thrilled. This is a cool story anyway. Okay, so there is a new Rachel Cusp Book. What's it called?

Andy Greenwald

Portrait of M. Life of M. Life of M. Can I. Can we set up Rachel Cusk a little bit?

Chris Ryan

Yeah, I think we better.

Andy Greenwald

Should we? Rachel Cusk is a very culty British novelist. Kai, have you read these books? Do we talk about this?

Chris Ryan

I have not, no.

Andy Greenwald

Okay. I feel like We've asked you this before. I apologize. She's kind of known.

Chris Ryan

Have you read any Rachel Kushner? I love Rachel Kushner. That's why she's still here.

Andy Greenwald

You know what?

Chris Ryan

That's why she sticks around, is because she and I know Mars Room for Life.

Andy Greenwald

Kai and Sarah are.

Chris Ryan

No, Mars Room was too dark for me.

Andy Greenwald

I had to. Kai and Sarah are a big outline trilogy. They just don't want to talk about it. She has sort of risen to a certain kind of prominence for her incredibly chilly reported autofiction books.

Chris Ryan

Yes.

Andy Greenwald

Her books are a vibe. Her books are an experience. This trilogy that starts with the outline basically follow her just like going to literary conferences and just sort of talking to people like Greek men who take her out on their boats to tell them about their failed sons, you know? And she's just like. Then she talks about her footage. Shithead. Her ex husband is. And you're like, more. More. So I know I'm selling it, but they are. So there's such a vibe. Like there's an entire book that I read about how she and her then husband took their kids out of school to live in Italy for a year. And then they go to like a bunch of. They go to look at frescoes and abbeys and she's like, everything sucks.

Chris Ryan

It's great.

Andy Greenwald

Can't sell it enough.

Chris Ryan

Where have I heard that kind of attitude?

Andy Greenwald

I can't imagine why. But what's incredible then is this. Is this was reported this week. Is that her. She has many fans, you know, including Natalie Portman. Including Natalie Portman. Who. Part of her. Natalie Portman's public facing brand is like lifting up novelists and she likes books. And who among us? You, Jezelnick. All the greats do it. And the implication here is that Natalie Portman was like, let's hang out or like, write about me.

Chris Ryan

Yeah, I can't really get. So the reason why this is a little bit murky is because apparently there are galleys of this book, which is a. According to one article on a site called Unherd and then aggregated by the usual trades is an unflattering portrait of Natalie Portman.

Andy Greenwald

Who could have guessed? Yeah.

Chris Ryan

And there are galleys of this book and there is an embargo on the reviews, I suppose. So it's like a very strange, like, social media discourse about it where people are like, I see. Like this site decided to break the embargo. But I will save my opinions for when, like, the real time comes.

Andy Greenwald

Yes, but it.

Chris Ryan

I'm unclear as to whether Natalie Portman basically was like, yes, you can embed with me. Or if this is just about their on again, off again relationship, because they

Andy Greenwald

both live in Paris now and they

Chris Ryan

both have this sort of mutual appreciation for each other, or did until Rachel Cusk wrote what is apparently an unflattering novel about her. But I gotta say something, man.

Andy Greenwald

Say it.

Chris Ryan

Shout out to Natalie Portman. Okay. Because. Okay. This is why they don't fudgeing talk to us anymore. This is why.

Andy Greenwald

Oh, celebrities. Yeah.

Chris Ryan

Are like, sure, I'll make a pizza, but you can't spend more than 12 minutes with me. You know, because they don't want to be observed. They don't want their weird shit.

Andy Greenwald

Yeah.

Chris Ryan

Broadcast out into the world. So they want to get asked what their Letterbox 4 favorites are. And then they keep it moving, you know? And, like, and. And. And when you see any life in them and everybody's just like, wow, an iguana. You know, like, this is, like, how they get treated. So for her to be like, what?

Andy Greenwald

What?

Chris Ryan

Where can we go here with this relationship? Why don't I have this, like, absolutely. Scalpel sharp.

Andy Greenwald

Yes.

Chris Ryan

Mean writer, hang out with me and then write a novel about me is fucking cool. Like, it may not work out well for her, but I admire her doing this.

Andy Greenwald

What's incredible is the analogy.

Chris Ryan

It's very French that she did this.

Andy Greenwald

It's very French.

Chris Ryan

Yeah.

Andy Greenwald

The analogy that I was thinking is, like, if I was a big fan of, like, in cooking, like, Wusthof knives, I'm like, I love cooking with these knives. I really enjoy them. It's a good product that does what it's supposed to do. And they're a part of my life every day. That step from that to being like, I wonder what it would be like to cut myself with these knives.

Chris Ryan

Yeah.

Andy Greenwald

Is a bridge too far.

Chris Ryan

Well, it would also just be like, any. Anything that we like. And you watch. I like watching Lioness. I don't want anything that happens in that show to happen to me.

Andy Greenwald

I know. You know, I will say, apropos of the early. The jokes you were making, like, when you texted me this, my brain autocorrected Kushner. I thought it was Rachel Kushner. And then I was shocked because Rachel Kushner, from all of her public, I mean, her books are quite intellectual and can be tough, but, like, every interview, she's just like, Kim Gordon and I went to get tacos in Echo park, and it was sick.

Chris Ryan

Yeah.

Andy Greenwald

I feel like she would be a really cool Hang.

Chris Ryan

Yeah. Rachel Kushner is welcome to write a book about me. That would be dope.

Andy Greenwald

I think it would be great. Do you think. Which mode would she use? The women in prison mode or the spy woman going to investigate caves in Bordeaux mode? Which are.

Chris Ryan

You can't possibly comment at this time. This is just an exciting development. We'll be tracking it as maybe more official reviews come out. I am really hoping it doesn't turn out that it's like this was misinterpreted and it's not actually about Natalie Portman. Whatever it's about.

Andy Greenwald

I just think of all the writers

Chris Ryan

on Earth, Monica Bellucci, and, you know, we just didn't know.

Andy Greenwald

Of all the writers on Earth, there is no writer alive that I would trust more to turn directly to camera and say, no, it's about that bitch than Rachel Cusk. Like, that is the one you want. Also, let me just say kudos to us because I do get a sense sometimes that there is, like, within our family of podcasts, like, we do tend to cover some similar things. Like, I imagine the Doomsday trailer will filter its way through Midnight Boys and Big Pic and, you know, House of R, everybody. Yeah, this is where you come for the discourse about Rachel cusk, about Jill.

Chris Ryan

Dr. Amanda may disagree.

Andy Greenwald

They are well read literary figures. But I feel like. I just feel like we are carving out a very specific lane for ourselves to enjoy and sometimes, Kaya, where we can really.

Chris Ryan

I've not seen you this activated and animated in such a long time.

Andy Greenwald

This is the most interesting story.

Chris Ryan

This is your House of the Dragon.

Andy Greenwald

This is the most interesting story of the week.

Chris Ryan

Thank you to Kaya, Kai and Sarah for producing us today. We'll be back on Thursday.

Andy Greenwald

We gotta get to the agency and it's really just more about finishing it.

Chris Ryan

I'm sorry, I was. I had five place matches to watch. You know, it just came. It just came up.

Andy Greenwald

Up.

Chris Ryan

I want it to be done for today, but I think we did a good show either way.

Andy Greenwald

I think we did a good show and also we did a good World cup, so I think it's okay.

Chris Ryan

See you guys on Thursday.