‘Star City’ Season Finale With Creators Ben Nedivi and Matt Wolpert. Plus, Emmy Nominations!

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And we're live from the living room as Doug eyes up the match. Say spread. He's reaching for the buffalo wing. Perfect. Hang on. What's this? Oh, he's gone for a can of Pepsi too. Incredible. What a finish. Sensational combination. Look at the delight on his face. There's no doubt about it. It just tastes better. Match days deserve Pepsi. Food deserves Pepsi. Grab a pack of Pepsi. Zero sugar. For today's match, it's poetry in motion.

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Paint sports to have to clear the room. Stand up and walk now. Hello and welcome to the Watch. My name is Andy Greenwald. After all these years, I still retain no official title at the ringer and I'm here by myself. Our good friend, the man, the legend, Chris Ryan is continuing his listening tour of America and I'm sorry, what's that? Chris has actually left the country. Very interesting. Wow. Middle America. CR has tread north of the border. He claims to do a live podcast with some other show he's involved with the Kai. What's it called? The Big. The big pic. The small screen. It's called Movies now with Sean Fennesee and Amanda Dobbins. No, I hope they're having a good time up there. I do just want people to remember Commie Chris might not be as pure as some of the voters believe him to be. No, we miss Chris. It's a summer of a lot of travel. He will be back on Monday when I will be traveling, not for political purposes. And we will be back together next week. Special Friday show for you today. Oh, and before I forget, you can and should email us@thewatchpotify.com or check us out on the Watchpod underscore on Instagram, where Kai is just continuing to do incredible work highlighting me and my popular opinions. Special Friday show for a very good reason. Star City on Apple tv. You've probably heard us talking about it week after week. I don't know how many of you have taken the plunge or in this case, gotten on the orbiter into space. But on today's show, Ben Nadevi and Matt Wolpert, the co creators, co showrunners of Star City as well as the sister show for all mankind, join me. Great conversation, great guys, but I really just want to take this moment to implore you again. Whatever cred we've built up with you guys, we're willing to spend some real rubles on this one. This show is dazzling. And if you are someone who started to check it out who may be a little bit worried about the Soviet era wallpaper Period piece, the slow burn of the first few episodes. I can confirm that today's season finale is jaw dropping in all of the best ways. It hits all your familiar TV feels and it does things that I've never seen on screen and I loved it. So really excited to talk to them. It is a not super spoilery conversation. A lot of interesting stuff about just production these days and making television in Lithuania, which is where we're all headed if we're lucky. But if you haven't had time to check out the show yet, please do. All episodes are now streaming on Apple Apple. The other reason why I'm eager to talk to you guys today is the Emmy nominations were released yesterday and it is a special and magical time of year. And as always, the caveat being the Emmys are never going to reflect everyone's personal taste. We will get into some specific snubs that I think a lot of people around town are feeling, but they are a really interesting snapshot of what the how the industry views itself and what is being celebrated and what is being ignored. So I do want to get into a little bit of that and the main headline for me, and we'll get into some of the subheads, but the main headline for me is, I mean, this is a podcast about Star City. The Apple Corporation, that plucky startup from Cupertino, has forced itself really into the mainstream television conversation. Now, caveats abound. Apple is the richest company on earth, I believe, still, so they can force themselves into any conversation that they want to. They're not playing by the same rules as a lot of the other networks are in terms of what they decide to fund and what they don't decide to fund. The other thing worth noting is that, and this is shocking to me, I just actually learned this today, Apple's shows, of which we, you know, we love many of them. We discuss them about to get into them. Apple's shows do not qualify for Nielsen's streaming ratings because you have to have 1% of the television audience to qualify. That's actually what we're talking about in terms of niche programming. I believe they're at like 0.8 of a percent currently. So it is a very, very, very small piece of what is still a pretty diffuse pie. But the shows they are making are registering among some viewers, listeners to this podcast and clearly, clearly with Emmy voters. So while HBO Max had a typically huge showing with 122 nominations total and Netflix was second with 111, and I think some people thought that Netflix might overtake HBO this year, particularly if the final season of Stranger Things caught any kind of fire listener. It did not. But the real shocker here is that Apple got 89 nominations. And it's not just that it got 89 nominations. It's not like it just cleaned up in the like the secondary or tertiary categories. Your best drama listeners, your best drama nominations for 2026 are the Diplomat on Netflix. The Gilded Age on HBO Max. Night of the Seven Kingdoms on HBO Max. And by the way, we're not going to quibble over category fraud here. Night of the Seven Kingdoms was dramatic, even though it was also quite funny and 30 minutes long. It was submitted as a drama paradise on Hulu, which lol. But like a good lol. The Pit, the reigning champ on HBO Max. And then Pluribus, Apple tv, Slow Horses, Apple TV and fucking your friends and neighbors on Apple tv. Which honestly respect, I know and like a lot of the people who work on that show. And I'm sorry that I'm not joining you on the second and soon to be third season but wow that that drew some eyeballs. Especially because what often happens with, I don't wanna say fringier shows cause it's a pretty mainstream and well promoted show, but I never had the sense that it had crossed over into as much of a mainstream conversation as to warrant a nomination like this. Usually what happens is the most identifiable part of the show. In this case, Emmy winner Jon Hamm will get nominated. While the show itself might not get nominated for a few years. We weirdly, this is your Friends and Neighbors only Emmy nomination. Jon Hamm was not nominated, but I think that speaks to the outsized role that Apple is playing behind the scenes here. Now I'm not saying it's like old school Golden Globe stuff, I'm not saying it's payola, but Apple is definitely paying. They are paying a premium for really, really highly regarded content. They are making deals with big stars as they have since the beginning. They are optioning hot properties. But I think the more subtle thing that they're doing that is pretty impressive is they definitely are meeting audiences where they are and not putting up too much. That demands a lot of adventure. Now it's big enough of a service at this point to make that comment while also covering Star City, which as I said is a very, very niche kind of show and hopefully we'll be finding an audience. But you know, I think it's not just the success of your Friends and Neighbors, it's Margot's got Money Trouble, which was Submitted, which we thought was sort of like a literary adaptation miniseries, limited series, and is actually submitting and getting nominated as an ongoing comedy series. So Apple is here and Apple is not going anywhere unless Tim Cook decides to make cars instead. And then it'll all go away, but I don't think that's gonna happen. Specific numbers for shows. The Pit leads all nominees with 25. Any single person you've ever seen on the Pit was probably nominated. It's probably a safer bet Special shout out to. What are their names? Brittany Allen, who played the cancer mom, and Jeff Cober, who played Duke, the motorcycle guy with a heart of gold and lungs full of, I don't know, tumors. They were great on the season and interestingly, they had to self submit and still got a nomination. What that means is like even giant, well funded Emmy productions like the Pit and with HBO behind them, there's a decision as to who they are going to submit for each category. This actor or this actor. And particularly when it comes to guest slots, they had to pick and choose. I think they. I think institutionally they put up the actor who played Louis and he was rewarded with a nomination. But Brittany Alan and Jeff Kober had to nominate themselves and it worked, which is great for them and also a sign of the, at this point, honestly, truly unique monocultural dominance of the Pit. It is, I think, not based. I'm not. I know I brought up Nielsen earlier. I don't know what to make of any of those numbers. Generally, the. The Pit is the biggest show on tv. I would say from the perspective of the way we talk about TV on this pod, it's the one that everyone has an opinion about, everyone watches, and it's kind of steering the larger cultural project of the medium at this moment. So 25 for the PIT, 24 for hacks. A show that is nominated for comedy. The Bear was not. This was the final season. The Emmys have loved this show so fiercely and so dearly. I worry about how the Emmys are gonna do without it and the Emmys. The only thing the Emmys love more than hacks is honoring a final season of a show. So 24 for hacks. Really creating the possibility that between these nominations and the surprising number of nominations for DTF St. Louis, that HBO could score the rare treble. That's a term I made up for when a network wins the big ones. Drama, comedy and limited. FX made a big play for that a few years ago when they moved Shogun into the drama category and they won for drama and comedy. With the bear. And I think that was the year when Fleischman's in Trouble was up for Limited and they didn't win. Pulling for the trouble for somebody. Couple other nice things that happened, the nicest being a little show called Widow's cleaning up 19 nominations. And I think that if you had polled anyone a week ago, this wouldn't have been a surprise. But if you had polled anyone two months ago, everyone would have said Widows. What? It's an incredible story. Obviously, we love the show here. I think it's still my favorite show of the year. We had creator Katie Dippold on the show along with director Hiro Murai, and both of them are nominated. And. And sometimes it just feels good when something takes over the popular imagination. It takes over the industry. It has a huge approval rating from everyone. And then you get that kind of like, cascading effect of nominations. So it's not just that obviously Matthew Reese was nominated, but all your favorite characters, Wick, Patricia, all nominated, but also Dale Dickey, who plays Rosemary, nominated Betty Gilpin and Hamish Linklater nominated for guesting on the episode. And here's the crazy thing. Season one of Widow's Bay was so not on the Emmy radar for Apple that its first season spanned the eligibility window, which, correct me if I'm wrong, and I told you the email address at the top, I believe episodes from season one later in the season can be nominated for next year's Emmys because I don't know the production schedule, but there's a chance that I would say a good chance, considering it's July, that the second season of Widow's Bay will not be on the air by May. So I imagine that's not totally unprecedented, but it's still pretty cool and pretty wild to see. Matthew Rhys, by the way, a rare double nominee. Also nominated for the Beast in Me and Happy Home in Brooklyn because Keri Russell was nominated for the Diplomat. We love it when nice people succeed. Come couple other things. That was nice to see Yahya Abdul Mateen nominated for Wonder man, best actor in a comedy. Very, very high bar to climb. I think for Marvel shows to get Emmy recognition. WandaVision was the last to get any. Some would argue the last to deserve any. But Wonder man really, really was a good show. And I do think it probably got a little extra bump because just like with the Oscars over rewarding movies about movies, Wonder man is about the entertainment industry and how hard it is right now, even if you don't have superpowers. I'm wrong by the way, the Bear was nominated for comedy series this year, but a lot of the actors were not nominated. And this is for season four, meaning we have to do this whole thing again next year. IO Edebiri was the only actor nominated. I think Jamie Lee Curtis and the late Rob Reiner nominated for guest. Here are your comedy nominees. Abbott elementary, Funny show, the Bear that's funny Hex. Okay. Margot's got money's troubles. Sure nobody wants this. Only murders in the building, shrinking and Widow's Bay, which I think sort of has to be the favorite at this moment. The only snub that I would put there. Take out the one you like least and the rise and fall of Reggie Dinkins on NBC. Really deserved some love there. It's probably the funniest show on tv and the whole season is streaming on Peacock. Okay, a couple other snubs. Task was nominated in some categories. Actors were recognized. Mark Ruffalo, not nominated for drama series does beg the question if it would have fared better if it had been submitted as a limited. But as season two is currently in production in my beloved hometown of Philadelphia, not eligible. I do wonder if Task will build more institutional support in its second season. Partly because as was announced today Friday, we're in a shared universe, people. I mean I'm from this area so I know that things get really messy and incestuous. But officially Task is in the mayor of Easttown universe. Julianne Nicholson will be appearing in season two of Task playing the same character she played in Mayor. Who else could be showing up in the future? I don't know, maybe gritty other snubs. The big one in this room among the young people I work with industry. I still saying this as obviously a day one fan of the show worried that it was a bridge too far. Mainly because we are talking about a voting body that really likes your friends and neighbors. No disrespect to them, but your friends and neighbors. Like I was saying before and Margo's got money troubles. Meet the audience where they are. And I do think the majority of the Emmy voters are not going out all night with a bag of gear and like a classic train spotting soundtrack. Wait, sorry, that's my dream. I don't think people are going out in London the way that the characters are and so it doesn't mean the door is closed. There's one more season and as I was saying before, like Emmys love a finale story but I just think the groundswell of support that industry felt this year critically and certainly institutionally I don't know how hard HBO pushed them for Emmys in the past. I think that's something to build on and I would not be surprised to see like Marisa, Abela or Mahala nominated or Kit Harington nominated next year for the final season. If I could be mayor of Hollywood, I would have liked to have seen some love for the Lowdown, the great FX show with Ethan Hawke from the brilliant Sterling Harjo. But again, like, that's the kind of show where when you see these snubs list, I'm like, I just didn't really imagine a world where that was getting the popular support within the voting academy. But it is worth noting. I was really happy to see Beef Season two nominated so heavily. I know the second season was contentious to some, even people who loved the first season, but I think I liked the second season more. And acting nominations for Carey Mulligan and Charles Melton especially are super deserved. It's bad luck for Cailee Spaeny who maybe got forced out of a tougher category. The one nomination that I wish I could make happen in the acting categories, I mean, obviously Tim Symonds hitmaker like you can't make. Nobody wants this without him. But the other one would be Antony Starr for his five years as Homelander on the Boys. The Boys did have an Emmy moment. Shockingly, it was nominated for best Drama Series a few years ago and I think whatever cultural momentum it had then may have stalled a bit by the time the last season came out. But his performance was unbelievable and he remains one of the more underrated actors on tv and I'm excited to see what he does next. Night of the Seven Kingdoms. Really good. Thought maybe it would get some acting nominations. It didn't, but the great Dan Romer, who did a beautiful job on the score of that show, did get nominated. That was cool to see. I. I honestly like for all of the, the, the praise and the sort of dark arts that are attributed to HBO head Casey Blizz for getting into the conversation and racking up these Emmy nominations every year. The fact that he got this many EMMY nominations for DTF St. Louis creator Stephen Conrad, it's a fucking magic trick worthy of Hogwarts. Which is eligible next year, by the way. So kudos to everybody. The Emmys are a fun party. I wouldn't read too much into them, but it is a fun party and it's always better to celebrate the things they get right. I didn't even mention 18 nominations for Pluribus. Very hard to do as a new show on a network that has 0.8% of the television landscape. Better to focus on the good things than the disappointing things because there are always going to be more of those to find. So there you go. We are going to get into my conversation with Ben and Matt from Star City and I would just say again, do yourself a favor and watch the show. Particularly if you're finding that some of your other faves are going off the air for the summer or you haven't found a next thing to watch. It's really excellent and I was hoping we could do something dramatic like announce a season two pickup here on this podcast. But you know, much like Soviet state controlled media, Apple keeps this stuff tight, close to its vest. I don't actually know, but maybe that's empowering, guys, because maybe that means you can turn off this podcast. Just kidding. Keep it playing in the background for the, for the rotations, for the spins. What do we call them? Plays. And watch Star City. Cause you actually could affect the show's future. And that feel good. Doesn't that feel good to have an interactive, empowering moment. Thank you to Kaya and Kai for getting me through this and we will be back. Well, Chris will be back on Monday and I'm sure he will have some honestly provocative things to say about socialist life north of the border. And I'll be back to talk to you guys next week. So please enjoy my interview with Matt and Ben. Not that Matt and Ben. The Matt and Ben that makes Star City. I am so thrilled to be joined in studio now by Ben Nadevi and Matt Wolpert. You say the T. It's not a silent T. The co creators and co showrunners of the brilliant Apple TV series Star City, which we are talking about having just concluded the first season. Guys, welcome. Welcome to the Watch.

C

Thanks so much. Really happy to be here.

B

We were just discussing the fact that we briefly met each other 10 years ago and then you were on probation for a decade until you made the show and now here we are. So thank you.

D

Yeah, came out of hibernation just for this.

B

I'm really glad we get to talk about the season in its entirety. The finale is, I believe, per my notes, so sick. But I want to specifically get into how you pull this feet off. The eye of this needle couldn't be finer to thread. It's a spin off of an already pretty dense kind of niche sci fi show and except this one is set in the Soviet 1960s. So can you talk to me a Little bit about the origin of the project, both from, like, what sparked your interest in telling this side of a story that you told the other side of In For All Mankind. And then maybe there was a moment where you were like, oh, we could actually do this practically, you know, researching

D

For All Mankind the first few seasons. There's a lot that goes into that show in terms of, you know, the research, the history. Even though we're changing history, we kind of. It's really important to us to get it right. And the more we were reading and hearing about the Soviet space program, it was blowing our minds, what we were reading. It's the kind of stuff that you couldn't believe these things actually happened. And it wasn't stuff we could put into For All Mankind because the show was more focused on the American space program. And the difference really was that everyone sort of knew about the American space program. I mean, there are countless books, documentaries, articles about the Apollo program, whereas the Russian program, I mean, almost nothing is known. And even in our research, it was hard to find things out. But we just felt by. I think after a year or two of talking about it and just being in shock about what we were reading was. I mean, we had to talk. We gotta. There's something here. So, yeah, we were slowly talking to our partners at Apple and Sony about the idea. And we think there's something here. It's a different genre, it's a different show. And thankfully they kind of agreed.

C

Yeah. And then the irony was we got them hooked on it and we were kind of starting to develop the idea. And then Putin invaded Ukraine and we were like, so that kills that project. But we kept talking to Apple and they were like, well, we actually think this could be even more relevant now than ever. Which credit to them for that point of view. Cause that's a brave point of view to have as a network. And so we just kept working on it. And I think to Ben's point, the thing, we felt like it was very important to us that this project felt completely different and unique for all mankind. Otherwise, creatively, it wouldn't have excited us to do it. We don't want to just do like a, oh, it's for all mankind, but just the other side, it's just a mirror. That would have been boring to us. So the fact that the Soviet program was so secretive and that, you know, for all mankind, so little is known about what they were doing, it felt like we had a freedom to explore stories where you don't know what's gonna happen to these characters and these missions because of the secrecy.

B

When did you realize that it was an espionage show on top of everything else, really?

D

Early on, actually. Cause I think if there was something that defined that program and honestly, the country at that time was. Everything was being watched. And, you know, and I think that's. I think the key thing that separated it from For All Mankind early on was like, you know, for all mankind is focused on the astronauts and the engineers. That's the brunt of the beginning of that show. To us, this was the intelligence and kind of what was going on behind the scenes was fascinating. And it felt like an opportunity to kind of almost dip our toes into a different genre. I mean, even, you know, Reece Ifans, our lead actor. I remember he read the script, he said, I don't think I've ever seen a spinoff that's a different genre than the show it spun off.

B

Yes, totally.

D

And I think that was what attracted us. You know, I think we've. Look, since we were, you know, in college, I think doing a spy thriller in the Cold War is kind of a dream project for, I think, of

B

a certain age, perhaps. Exactly.

C

So we definitely, like, backed into that a little bit and we were like, this is our chance.

D

Let's use For All Mankind to tell the spy thriller. We always wanted to tell you on

B

behalf of all men in their 40s, thank you. But additionally, what was so exciting about discovering the show week to week in the early going was that, yes, you are playing with a play that is familiar and beloved. But I've never seen a spy show in which the, you know, it is people versus their own government, for example. And then secondarily, I've never seen a spy show in which a mole can flee to Venus. So it's really using the space, as our actor friends would say. That was pretty exciting.

D

Yeah. No, and, you know, there's a ton of spy shows out, right? I mean, it's the hot thing. So I think you're right. On some level, we knew right away we're doing a different kind of spy show. This is immediately because it's about space and the space program and spying. It immediately separates it from everything else. But also, I have to say, the type of spying that we were attracted to was not do. We didn't want to do like a James Bond type thing. I mean, that's not our thing. I think for us, you know, we love, I mean, like, Lives of Others is one of the movies that for us stands out as one of these movies that stayed with us all the time. And I think that the difference with that was it really explored the character, the dynamics of not just listening to other people, but the cost that has on your psyche and on the people. Not just the people being listened to you, but the people doing the listening. And I think that was fascinating.

C

No, it was like the humanity of these characters on both sides and the situation they find themselves in. And how. Like, how does humanity. How is it affected by living in a system like this? I think that's what we really wanted to explore, especially with the arena character. And what does that do to you when you're. When you're in somebody's life, somebody else's life. And, you know, that's why I love that scene in episode three where she goes into this apartment that she's been listening to for a long time, and then she's kind of having these flashbacks of things she heard. And it feels almost transgressive and exciting, but also she feels guilty, and it's just very messy and human. And I think that's kind of what we were trying to do with it.

B

Now, for example, was the arena character a way in for you? Did you have a particular. Not in terms of actor, but one of these characters, an anchor character that you were excited to explore? I am relatively ignorant of the deep for all mankind lore, so I know some characters are pulled from that show as well. I didn't know if there was one particular way in.

C

The arena character was one of those ways in because the Star City started to kind of take form as we were working on season four for All Mankind. And so we were consciously telling the story. We introduced her as an older character who was very kind of, you know, ominous and foreboding. And then we were like, now we get to tell the origin story of how somebody becomes like that. And so we were conscious of setting that up and then backing into kind of the more human part of her. And we actually wrote the pilot in Bulgaria as we were shooting those scenes. And so we were kind of steeped in that Eastern European feeling at the time. It was kind of a perfect timing for that.

D

A lot of borscht, a lot of meat and potatoes.

B

I feel like you guys have been very forthcoming in other interviews. You talked about the influence that the Chernobyl miniseries had. I wonder if you could talk a little bit about that, because, you know, the. Even just on the basis of the conceit of this is Russian, but spoken in British stage accents. That works like that. That is a proven track record. Now, that we understand that. I was wondering the role that that show played for you, both creatively, but also in terms of production and actually, like, as we were joking before, Boots on the Ground. Yeah.

D

A huge role. I mean, I'd like to think we're, in a weird way, part of the Chernobyl universe now.

B

Well, poor Adam Nogaitis must be like, I'm English, I know.

D

Yeah.

B

Would you like to see me in, like, a Men's national jersey drinking a pint?

D

Because, no, I did that. You know, first of all, that show blew us away like it did most of the world, and anyone who watched it, but I think more than anything, the quality of it, just watching it, how it really felt like you were in that place in time. So one of our first things when we were looking at doing the show was like, where do we do this? We're like, let's do it wherever the hell Chernobyl did it. And I think Lithuania quickly stood out, not only because that's where they did the show, but it's Eastern Europe. A lot of the people in our crew, their parents, they lived this existence. So you were talking to our producer, Lynetta, people we knew there who could tell us directly, no, no, that wallpaper's wrong, or that the toilet would not be in the same room as the. That, you know, they knew these details. And that added a whole other level to the production in terms of the accents. I think that was honestly one of the toughest decisions. I mean, early on in the process, we definitely explored and considered the idea of doing it all in Russian, because, you know, in the end, that would be amazing if you could pull that off. Right. I mean, that would be the most authentic version.

B

You find yourself in Tim Cook's office

D

just explaining like, no, no, no, trust me, trust me. Yeah. But, you know, the reality of it is just so impossible. And then even doing the Russian accents, which it's so hard to pull those off. And in the end, we struggled with it. And we actually called at some point, Craig Mason, just to be like, let's talk to. And we said, what went into that? Why did you decide to go this way? And he was very blunt with us. He's like, don't even think about it. Just do the British accents. And not even British accents, but I think for us it was European because we have actors actually from also non uk.

B

The great David Denchick.

C

That's right.

D

We wanted to work with him for years. We've been trying to find a role for him for five years.

B

Top of the lake, families like ours. He was just in. He's always great.

C

Oh, yeah. Tinker Taylor, he's just. And he's friends with Joel Kinnaman. And so we had met with him a while ago, and we've just been constantly trying to work with him. But to Ben's point, it was like we told Rhys Ifans, like, use your Welsh accent. Because there's regions within the Soviet Union, like someone from Moscow doesn't sound like someone from Siberia or from Kazakhstan or all these places. So felt like it added a layer of even more authenticity and capturing the sort of pastiche of the Soviet people.

D

There's even like a socioeconomic thing with the accents. I mean, we didn't dive into it too far, but it does convey something. The accent you have, like, the more posh you are. And there were these differences in Soviet society as well. So we tried to play into that as well as much as we could, but. But in the end, we didn't want the actors to be doing just accent work the entire time. These are incredible actors. I mean, we knew what we had and we said, let's make the best of who we have here.

B

So we covered a little bit the historical interest in the period and the details. And you're talking about how just by being there, you got the aesthetics and regional things right. I'm curious about how you pursued the cultural feeling. And by that I mean, this is something I talked about when we were reviewing the. Or discussing the penultimate episode. I kept coming back to that sense that Joseph Davies plays so beautifully in that brutal scene in his apartment of indignity, which is a very amorphous term to throw at an actor. But what the show builds over its season is that feeling of. Ultimately, that's what defeats you. You know, you can get angry, you can be sad, but that hollowed out feeling. And I wondered how you chased the verisimilitude of that emotion.

C

No, it really is the kind of inevitability of the state on some level. And that as much as you can try to tilt at the windmills of that, there is a futility to it on some level, but on the same side. One of my favorite scenes in the season is that scene between Sergey and the chief designer in the truck where Sergei is just beside himself. He's betrayed. You know, the state has really won over this guy. And the chief designer says, like, we still sent somebody to Venus and they can't take that away from us. And to me, that's the counterpoint to that moment. In the apartment, which is like a real low for him, is like he still did something that, you know, as a human being, he can have pride in. And I think that's the real struggle in that type of authoritarian system where there's. There's this Russian movie called Leviathan also, which is amazing. And that really captured that as well, where as much as one person is trying to fight against the power of the state, they're almost helpless. But you can still. It's human nature to keep striving at that.

B

I think it speaks also to the really brilliant job you guys did in constructing a season. Because the moment you're talking about, Matt in the finale with the chief designer and Sergey, is in some ways an echo of another scene of indignity in the pilot, where the chief designer gets his medal in an empty room and there is no sense that anything will be remembered or seen. And at least these two share something. And it's about being seen and heard and remembered. Right. In a communal way.

C

Exactly.

D

It's really the struggle of TV writers. I think that's what we're talking about.

B

Please, please see this. At least you're in a room together, weeping.

C

You know, Star City is an allegory for TV writers.

D

That's ok. Indignity. We say suffer in the system.

B

The dirty truth is all TV shows are allegories for TV writing. That's what the money is for. Is like, famously, that's David Chase and

D

now Weiner the suitcase. That whole episode is basically. Yeah. About the writing process.

B

He'll never let me out of this room. Sopranos Season 4 or whatever it was. I wanted to talk to you about two specific pieces of casting that certainly make the show what it is. One was Anna Maxwell Martin as Raskova, who's a type of monster I don't know if we've seen before on television. And that's saying something in an era where there's like literally a monsters universe on your streaming network. And Alice Englert as Anastasia, who is a type of heroine I'm not sure I see very often in the sense that she's sort of halting and uncertain, and a lot of it, what she gives is interior. Can you talk about the casting process of those characters and how they shaped of those actors and how they shaped the characters that you had that existed only in your mind?

D

I'm glad you picked out those two in particular, because I think those were the key. Some of the key casting in the show. And I think Anna, also, we've been a fan of forever. And it's insane to me how little known she is outside the uk.

B

I mean, she's quite famous in the deal.

D

Oh, no, she's considered royalty. Like acting royalty in the uk and outside her name isn't as familiar. But anyone who's seen her work would not be surprised by the performance she gives here. And nor were we. But I have to say, her approach to this character, from our early conversations, we knew she could do it, but I think what we all wanted is to do a different type of villain and not just play into the cliche of this. Cause it so easily becomes a caricature if you do this wrong. And I think the nuance she brought from, honestly, her background in comedy, I think more than anything, what we've learned over the years is if you've done comedy, you can do anything.

B

Yes.

D

Whether you're a writer, an actor, whatever. And I feel, because it gives you this flexibility and a freedom. And she'd be on set, like, cracking jokes, like making everyone laugh, like just fooling around. And then within seconds, okay, let's roll. And she's now with a gun in her hand, yelling and terrifying. That's the talent you're dealing with. And when you have that kind of talent, the key thing, I think, in your role is just to let them do what they need to do. And she understood early on what was entailed here and sort of like, as the season progresses, the layers come out more and more of that character. Whereas with Alice and what she brought, you know, to Anastasia, that was sort of the key casting for us. Cause, like, Anastasia's the one that starts the whole show. And you wanted someone that almost in the beginning is in the background. You're not even paying attention to her.

B

It worked.

D

She might as well.

B

Yeah, she's. Then you cast. Is it Katarina, the woman who's going to go into space? You cast that so brilliantly as well. She's so dynamic.

D

Exactly.

B

You can't take your eyes off her.

D

Exactly.

C

It's also, I think, with both of those characters, what's interesting to us is the arc over the season with both of them. Because with Lyudmila, we really put all our chips in on making her a monster in the beginning and making her the most intimidating person. Like how. But in our writing process, we think a lot about, well, how is that human being made into that? And her experiences in the war. And there's all these references. And then in the last two episodes, we were like, okay, roll up our sleeves. And like, okay, now, let's humanize her. Yeah, let's try to. But Anna, like, she was. I think this is something a lot of actors don't have. She has the patience to, like, be. Be the bad guy for enough time that when you humanize and you earned it.

B

Yep.

C

And I think with. With Alice as well, like, seeing her start to become more confident in herself and understanding the power that she actually does have, like, she probably has more power than almost anybody because of her. How famous she is, you know, and her face is everywhere. And she's starting by the end of the season to kind of come to terms with that. And you see that she just. That scene with her and David Denchick where she's, like, talking back to him in a more confident way, and he says, like, oh, you've grown. Like she is. And what's fascinating is Alice is so, like, the opposite of Anastasia. She's just this kind of, like, overflowing with joy and passion, and yet she captured that. That's all. Like, she just put that all ins inside the shell. It's really fascinating performance, acting.

D

Yeah.

B

I mean, go figure. But Ludmila Slapstick arc, season two, Is that weird? The outtakes, like an Emuji movie or something?

D

It was hard. There were times where, like, okay, we are doing a dark drama here set in the lady, and she would just be cracking jokes left, which in a way was a blessing, you know? Cause in drama especially, comedy is so appreciated.

B

Yes. But she is the one that I would not. I would not have expected. She's the cutup, that she's the problem. She's doing The Apatow alts 100%. The other challenge of the show, of which I'm sure there are many to me, would be how much of it has to come together off the page because you guys are here and you have a room, and you're carrying the spirit of what you think the show could be. But so much of it depends on very specific location scouting, on production design, art direction. Someone has to do building 12 and make it look like that and then shoot it to understand how it's working like that. I couldn't get over that. You built an emotional crescendo of an episode around Joseph Davies writing algebra. That's veteran showrunnership. Honestly, if you're just like, trust us. We'll pull this off. I can't decide if it's a question more about the process or about whatever confidence or skills you've gained in your time working on For All Mankind that allowed you to trust to that degree.

D

The run we've had between Fargo and for All Mankind was very helpful because these are two unique shows where every season is a totally new story, new characters, new world. In certain ways, that's unique to television. So I think it's prepared us for basically like, okay, jump in. How are you gonna. And to not be precious.

B

Yeah.

D

But as you know, I mean, this job is exhaustive. And we were doing this. We were running this at the same time as we were running for all mankind. And we were back and forth between Lithuania. Matt, he would be there, I would be here. We would be swapping every two weeks. We were constantly. I didn't know what time zone I was in at a certain point. I was waking up at three in the morning in la, been up all night. It was crazy. But at the same time, you know, I think we had such a passion for this show and this concept. We couldn't believe, honestly, that we were allowed to make this show. We constantly kept feeling like our KGB was like, are they gonna pull the plug? Are they really letting us do this?

B

So this was the Venera mission.

D

You really were writing yourself. Lithuania was our Venus. Yeah. And, you know, it's that thing. I mean, there's a quote I say a lot like Lena Waithe said this about showrunning, like it's being beaten to death with your dream. And I love that line because I think it captures what this job is, that, yes, we're doing what we love, so you can't complain. Oh, man, it's hard. Oh, we're flying to Lithuania. We're. We're creating these worlds and doing things that as a kid, I would be amazed that we're doing. But it is all encompassing. And if you don't feel strongly about it, you don't do the hard work, then it doesn't work.

C

And I think the other key to that is Ben and I had such a clear vision of what the show should feel and look like at the beginning. And then we found people that really got that vision. Nick Murphy, our director of the first two episodes, Paul Spriggs, the production designer.

D

Incredible.

C

Steve Oster, our producer over there, Brendan Oigama, the dp, all these guys and Nicole Fishnaller, our costume designer, they all were pushing in the same direction. And so when we weren't able to be there every second of every day, you had people you could trust. Because you can't do this alone. I mean, there's no possible way to do that. But it really is important if you're doing this, and everybody isn't working toward the same goal. It's not gonna be good at all.

D

In fact, what I appreciate about a lot of these people we worked with is there were times they would push back on us in terms of, like, I remember our makeup. You know, they were like. Because we. Early on, we said, no makeup. It's gotta be accurate. And then you get there, like, okay, maybe a little makeup. This is kind of. But she. This is giving Lithuania and winter. Hold on. I mean, maybe a little something. But they held our feet to the fire sometimes. Like, no, no, no. This is what. You said. You wanted the ugly, you wanted the real, you wanted the. This is. What's.

B

The truth is you asked for makeup because you had just gotten off the plane.

D

A. A little help here. Come on. Yeah, yeah. No, but it's an incredible team, and I think they all also saw what we were going for and were excited about it too.

C

Yeah, they bought in.

B

Yeah. See, this is kind of like, deeper showrunner shit. But I was so impressed with the way you guys played with time in your story. Anyone who had any passing familiarity with fra Mankind, even if they haven't gone deep into the seasons, knows that the show jumps forward and knows that there is a full spectrum of this alternate history to draw from. Knowing that going in and maybe even you guys knowing what the audience's preconceived notions might be. The fact that the episode, I don't know if it's four or five that ends with Irina discovering the perfume picks up instant, instant pickup. The next episode was, I thought, really bold and exciting and also really destabilizing, because then when Venera seems to be in absolute ruin, you jump. Then you jump. Seven months. And I wonder how much time you give to thinking about time.

C

Too much time thinking about time, honestly. But I think part of it is just you have to kind of let the story tell you what it needs and not fall into patterns. And so it felt like four needed to go right into five. And I think one of the things we've taken is, like, this show is a slow burn, but there's a version of this show that's a really slow burn where you don't get to the stuff that happens in Fort. Like, Irina doesn't find out till almost the end of the season who the mole is. And it's like, we felt like, you know, the story took us to this place of, like, let's get to each big moment and kind of, like, change the world so that you never Know where you're gonna. Where the ground's gonna shift.

D

Yeah. It's funny. Cause I remember episode six in particular, when we finished writing that. We're like. I mean, that's sort of the end of the season, isn't it? I mean, isn't that a great ending of a season? I'm like, what the hell are we doing now? Like, restarting the engine with two episodes left was quite a challenge. I remember because we felt like, yeah,

C

we were like, this could be a mistake. Yeah, this could be a big mistake.

D

Which is honestly the best parts of writing when you're in that place of, you know, this could work or not work, but let's go for it, you know, at some level.

B

This is specifically what I wanted to ask you about. Because in my experience, talking to writing teams, one of the greatest advantages of working with someone is you have someone next to you pushing you, being like, no, go bigger. Go bolder. You ask where you could go after ending the season in episode six, I'll tell you. You'll have an aggrieved wife rescue her husband from fucking space. Yeah. You don't get there. So I want. Is that a correct read on an aspect of your collaboration to push each other to go bigger?

C

Yeah.

B

Or bolder, maybe?

C

No, no, I think it is. It's that and it's someone you can check in with. I think there are constant moments. It's really interesting, though, because I think we both. We have such a similar point of view generally, but there's probably like 20% that we see differently. And then we have those conversations, arguments, maybe, where we work it out. But I remember in season two of For All Mankind, we were with the Gordo Tracy duct tape run. That was another moment where we were like this. We were sitting on set and watching these actors run around in duct tape and being like, there's a 80% chance.

D

This is awful and silly.

C

And yet we looked at each other and we're like, but when we thought of this, it was good. And yes, it might. And we can.

D

It's a check. It's a gut check with each other. Yeah. There's a moment like this. I rely like, we're not crazy here. This is gonna work. And I think in a way, I don't know how anyone does this job alone, by the way. You kind of need. I mean, the whole thing is collaboration. So we've had a writer's room of two since we began. So, yeah, it's incredibly helpful, especially with the two shows going at the same time. Especially when you are doing something like this, where, oh my God, episode six suddenly became a finale. Because I think the other thing with television, at least the way we do it, we never really know the ending till we're in it. And I think it's scary. Cause you're shooting the first few episodes, you have not written the last episode. And I think that fear actually does something interesting. That's the way to put it. It creates a lot of anxiety. You lose hair. No, it kind of allows you to react to what you're seeing happening on screen and in the dailies and with the actors. And instead of being like, no, no, do what I have set out, suddenly we're reacting to what we're seeing in the first two episodes.

B

I think that's the beauty of tv. It can be reactive, it can be intuitive. You can sort of. You can enter a flow state. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

C

No, that's exactly what it is. And it's. Especially when time is getting short, you know, and you're. I mean, I think almost every finale of both For All Mankind and, and Star City, we've written like, we've delivered it almost right when production or maybe even a little after. But there's something about the fear in your stomach and the sort of time pressure that you get out of your own way a little bit, you know, And I think some of our best writing has been in those.

D

What's the anecdote you would give with the baseball player?

C

Oh, it was El Duque on the Yankees. He had this thing in the world. I don't remember what year it was, but it was in like the late 90s, he said, like, I felt the pressure, but I felt no fear when he had like pitches for the first time in the World Series. And I think that's the, you know, the key to it is you can't get overwhelmed by it, even if you're under great pressure.

B

I mean, he also defected from Cuba, so I feel like he has a different relationship.

D

We went to a film school.

A

Right.

D

That was hard.

B

Alone together. Yeah. I mean, I think that it's so interesting that you guys, I mean, it's the role of the showrunner to understand what the characters are thinking at every moment and what the wallpaper should look like. But also you have to trust that the show that you've built that can succeed in miniature of arena touching wallpaper can also allow for a Venusian self sacrificial implosion. You guys did that too. And it was super earned and incredible because I have never Seen that before.

C

Yeah.

D

And make it feel like the same show. I have to say that that's what I mean, because it's one thing with For All Mankind. It's getting to a point where, you know, frankly, we weren't like sci fi guys before for all Mankind. I mean, everything in Hollywood's like, what do you write? And we started in comedy. Fargo was sort of comedy drama, so it was kind of perfect for us. But then For All Mankind came up like, we're not sci fi guys. But I think in a way, it's not just a sci fi show. And I think coming to this, it was like, wait, is this a spy show? Is this a sci Fi show? I think if there is our bread and butter, it's like, we can't define it.

A

Wrong.

D

Yeah, exactly.

B

Wrong.

D

But I think what was important to us is whenever you're in a space mission on this show, and we kept emphasizing this, even in the designs of the ships, how the ships look, we didn't want to feel like a different show. We wanted to feel like this is a different kind of prison up there. And, you know, the thing that guided us a lot was, like, in a way as difficult, you know, for all mankind. You know, space is dangerous. And on this show, I feel like what's more dangerous is getting back from space.

B

Yeah. And I love what you just said, because I was thinking there was a moment in watching the finale where I was like. My first thought was, my God, what is that cabin smell like? But my second thought was like, how could anyone, let alone two people, survive nine months in a tin can? And then I realized, you've given us a show that answers the question. Because they've spent their whole lives in some version of isolation, they're more prepared

D

for it than anyway, than anyone.

B

Totally. It's really cool. Thematically, most of my questions that I have remaining are about, like, what more do you. I know you can't confirm or deny anything. I imagine that you have thoughts about what future seasons of the show could entail. Do you envision it similarly to For All Mankind and that we'll get like, go Gorbachev 80s? Or are we focused more theoretically on these characters?

C

I think one of the things that we're most excited about is not doing the time jumps on both a personal mental health level and also just on a creative level that we don't have to deal with prosthetics or anything like that. But it really is like you were saying with episodes four and five, we want to keep in this world and just keep telling this story in the immediate sense. And it's been so great to see how many people out there are really responding to the show and loving it. And I can't wait to keep telling those stories.

B

What's the real estate market like in Vilnius? Or can you convince Delta to do a direct flight? Like, I just want to make this easier for you.

D

I would chill for a direct flight.

C

That would be. That would be a game changer.

B

Your mile status must be pretty illegal.

D

That's the one thing that was keeping me going. It's like, can I get lounge access? I can tell you about every lounge in the Frankfurt airport.

B

Oh, is that.

D

Yeah, Frankfurt. If you want to learn about the Frankfurt airport, that's like. I think that's like hell, in my opinion.

C

No, Frankfurt. Frankfurt's airport is hell on earth.

D

Yeah. I will say, if you want to experience hell, that's the closest you're going to get in our Earth.

B

Because my experience in covering and talking to Tony Bourdain and then also people who worked with him. What was so interesting, although in retrospect kind of makes sense, is that near the end of his, not just his life, but, like, making the television show, is that he would get to the most exotic place and then send someone out for Pizza Hut that like, he's like, I don't have to be that person all the time. I need to carry some comfort with me. I wondered what your Frankfurt airport or Vilnius.

D

We had a reference to this in For All Mankind too. Or like, whenever I'm traveling overseas, there's always one day where I go to get McDonald's.

A

Yes.

D

And I think. Or am I allowed to say McDonald's again?

B

I mean, this is one of you saying it already.

D

So we were actually shills. McDonald's Corporation. This is what this whole. Really, that's what Starseed is all about.

B

Genuinely. It's what those cosmonauts would want.

C

Oh, 100%.

D

Like, it would be dazzling. And when the first McDonald's opened, it was like euphoria.

B

Better than going to Venus.

D

Yeah. So even. But there is something about the taste of home. And it's strange when you're in Lithuania in the winter for months. And I love the food, I love the culture, but I have to say there's only so many variations of meat inside potatoes or potato inside meat that a human can handle.

C

They had discovered donuts recently in Lithuania, and. But the problem is they were then trying to make it like the Lithuanian version of a donut. Pickled herring in a stuffed donut. And I was like, this is not.

D

We're not quite getting it, guys. You're not quite getting it.

B

This is really helpful context for me, because when I was feeling, oh, I'm homesick in London, should I go to Dinh Tai Fung or Egg Slut today? You know, it's not exactly the same.

D

No, it's funny, too, because when we talk about Lithuania, like, a lot of the people here, it almost felt to them like, we're going to Siberia. And it's actually a beautiful first world country, part of the UN Part of Europe.

C

I fell in love with that place. It's such. Vilnius is such an amazing city in Kaunas. And, like, it's really a beautiful country, and the people there are so nice, you know, and it's. It was. It was a great experience other than all the, you know, the. The travel was honestly what killed us.

B

Did you ever catch any British actors being like, ugh, I've got an hour and a half to Gatwick, Staring down the barrel of that commute or whatever?

D

They all.

A

They all.

D

It's funny because they all kind of fell in love with it in their own way. Being away from their homes. And being away from your home sometimes does also you create more of, like, a unit, a family unit there, because you have to rely on. Yeah, but the place, I mean, you know, it's also. I had always wanted to go there because my grandparents had met there in the ghetto, actually. And I remember when we first got there to scout it, the guy who was showing us around, he kept saying, like, I can't wait. He looked at me and he's always like, I can't wait to show you the ghetto. Look what. You'll see what we did with the ghetto. It's amazing. And I was like, what did you do with the ghetto? And we arrived and it was like. It was, like, fancied up, you know, like gussied up.

B

There's a Gucci.

D

Look at this. Look at what we did with your ghetto. Like, yeah, it's wonderful. It's beautiful. But it was a bit surreal because, you know, now the hippest part of a lot of these old Eastern Europeans are the ghettos, because they were like, you know, cobblestone streets, really narrow, really cool. And now they're the center of life.

B

You should have walked around being like, my culture is not your costume. This is like telling my grandparents generation. They're like, yeah, I mostly hang out on the Lower east side. And they're like, why?

D

Yeah, get out.

B

You exist because we got away from there, right?

D

What's wrong with you? That's hilarious. That's exactly what my grandparents are saying. Like, get out of there. Go to the.

B

What? Go to where the golf club is.

D

It's what we did this for, you idiot.

B

All right, so can't confirm or deny anything, but the hope is there will be more Star City. In the meantime, there is more for all mankind. And that's. That's next on your docket, is that correct?

C

Yeah, we are heading to Bulgaria to shoot some, and we're toward the end of the last season.

B

Yeah, it's really crazy, I gotta say. I did get. No disrespect to a show that I admire and I will return to, but when I did hear from your publicist that you were going back to Eastern Europe, I was like, oh, yeah. I didn't realize that you had, like,

D

multiple stops, multiple Eastern Europe. Yeah, we've been.

B

You're across a lot of the former wartime.

D

I'm not kidding when I say we are soon to be the experts on Eastern European film spots.

B

Incredible. Well, that's pretty much where we're all gonna be filming soon anyway.

D

I mean, it sounds unfortunately.

B

Unfortunately, getting in early.

D

It does sound that way. But it's quite a feat in this time and day to finish a show, any show, from the beginning. Cause even when we were pitching for all mankind, honestly, I don't think that show gets made at any other time and place when it was. It's such a weird idea. Huge sci fi based on no ip. And. And the fact that we're now getting to the end of it is quite incredible. I mean, so we definitely feel the weight. I mean, we also feel the exhaustion and burnout that I think a lot of the showrunner creators feel as they're getting to the end of their shows. But it has been cool because it's a show, honestly, that's been shooting in Los Angeles for the most part since the beginning, which is also so rare.

B

You guys nailed it.

D

I know.

B

We got luck, right?

D

We lucked out. I know.

B

Last one's on the gravy trait. I know.

D

And honestly, it does sound like the last few weeks on set, you kind of felt like, are we ever gonna shoot here again? And that really was.

C

Yeah, it was emotional.

D

Yeah. Cause this crew, these people we love, that we've worked with, have done so much. It is that feeling of we can't just let this go. So hopefully, hopefully, things turn around here.

B

Did you tell them about the Frankfurt

D

airport that will help la.

B

That will help the LA in the transition. But, guys, thank you so much. I can't say enough about this show. I think it's really a special show and I think the accomplishment is just incredible. Really. Congratulations.

C

Thank you very much. Thanks for a lot of fun.