Andy Greenwald

And we're live from the living room as Doug eyes up the match. Say spread. He's reaching for the buffalo wing.

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Perfect.

Chris Ryan

Hang on.

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Andy Greenwald

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Chris Ryan

Gemini and Chrome, that's new. It can help you with practically anything

Andy Greenwald

on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50 page restoration block.

Chris Ryan

Or finally break down that long article

Andy Greenwald

you've had open for weeks.

Chris Ryan

Gemini and Chrome is here for it,

Andy Greenwald

ready to make anything online make sense.

Chris Ryan

There's no place like Chrome. Check responses.

Andy Greenwald

Setup required. Compatibility and availability. Various 18.

Chris Ryan

I need support staff to clear the room.

Andy Greenwald

Stand up and walk now.

Chris Ryan

Hello and welcome to the Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor@theringer.com and joining me in the studio, ready to celebrate 250 more. It's Andy Greenwald.

Andy Greenwald

250 more episodes of the Bear Season 5.

Chris Ryan

It's great to see you and I am excited for this dialogue that we're gonna have today on the Watch podcast which you can email@thewatchpotify.com youm can follow us on Instagram @thewatchpod and you can watch us on YouTube at ringer-tv where we share space with the prestige TV podcast. And you can also watch us on Spotify where I hope you listen to us.

Andy Greenwald

We don't share space. We hold space.

Chris Ryan

We hold space for Joe and Rob. It's great to see you. It's really great to see you. It's good to have Kaya back. We have a full house today and a full show.

Andy Greenwald

You have a lot of expectations for today, I think.

Chris Ryan

Here's the laundry list.

Andy Greenwald

All right.

Chris Ryan

The to do list. Opening banter so far, crushing it. We may do Dragon.

Andy Greenwald

I mean, we can discuss a little bit. I have some questions.

Chris Ryan

Dragon, Bear and Star City. How about that?

Andy Greenwald

Yeah. I mean, those are the things I watched.

Chris Ryan

Yeah. You also watched some other stuff. You had a robust cultural weekend.

Andy Greenwald

I did. There was a lot. I mean, that was a lot of television, man. I still got it, you know.

Chris Ryan

And you know what? Can I tell you something? Yeah. The industry is. It's not the industry. The agency. Straight bangers and mash. Just tucking into it. Dude.

Andy Greenwald

How far did you go, I'm at four now. Okay.

Chris Ryan

It's just good as shit, man. The Bureau, that was a good story.

Andy Greenwald

I know. They really knew what they were doing.

Chris Ryan

They say it in English. It's awesome.

Andy Greenwald

So much easier. Can I give you just a little glimpse into my headspace before we get started?

Chris Ryan

I'd like nothing more. In fact, this podcast is essentially built around that.

Andy Greenwald

Well, so I don't know if this has ever happened to you, and I don't know what this means specifically, but I was, you know, I was lining stuff up. I mean, really, this morning was devoted to a very important task, which is collating our various songs for our much anticipated annual barbecue playlist, which definitely will now soundtrack one of the weirdest barbecues of all time. So that's not out yet. We will release that via our Instagram.

Chris Ryan

Because of the music or because. Because of the nature of America? The country?

Andy Greenwald

No, because of the. Because of the interesting collision between where our personal muses have led us recently.

Chris Ryan

I can only do so much, Andy. I mean, last year I had lot of aggressive music, and you said that I would have ruined anyone's barbecue. So I tried to make it soft and NPR friendly for you.

Andy Greenwald

Ruined is not the word. Also, soft does usually not involve Ice Age and Salem, but okay, to each his own. That's not my issue. My issue was I spent a. You know, my head was really in that game this morning, and I was trying to collate my thoughts about all the various television we were going to discuss today. Was really excited to just kind of check out the AQI down here in Los Angeles.

Chris Ryan

Oh, yeah, right.

Andy Greenwald

And do you think it's actually raining?

Chris Ryan

Or is this God crying on the bottom of the city?

Andy Greenwald

Or did they shoot the hoses so high that it's only now, like. Yeah, so all of those things were happening. And, you know, also, it's Monday morning. I was boiling up some eggs, you know, and then was distracted briefly by some London communication on the WhatsApp app. And I was like, hmm, should probably lift the toaster, because it seems like I'm really overdoing these English muffins. Shout out to Nooks and Crannies, our former sponsor.

Chris Ryan

Yeah.

Andy Greenwald

And so you were scrambling some eggs, or were you? No, I was boiling, like, hard boiling some eggs.

Chris Ryan

I'm using an English muffin.

Andy Greenwald

Okay, well, here's the thing, Chris. There was no English muffin. It was actually a kitchen towel that was fully aflame in my. I had set fire to a kitchen

Chris Ryan

towel, like, by putting it on the Toaster.

Andy Greenwald

No, no, the toaster wasn't involved. That's you with you. With me?

Chris Ryan

Yeah.

Andy Greenwald

I had lifted the lid of the pot with a kitchen towel because it was hot. Placed it what I believe to be a reasonable distance from the pot.

Chris Ryan

I see.

Andy Greenwald

And then just fired up some messaging and then just was kind of like vibing with the smell of Los Angeles inside of my kitchen. Maybe that. Maybe the real issue is we are so desensitized.

Chris Ryan

It is. It is probably at this point you could just like all I do in my. In my house now is burn foam. Just to feel.

Andy Greenwald

Exactly.

Chris Ryan

Just to feel something.

Andy Greenwald

So I immediate. I immediately took an N95 mask and put it on the cat and then drove in to see you. So I.

Chris Ryan

Are you sure that. Are we okay at your house? Like, the embers are out.

Andy Greenwald

You know me very well. I doused that towel so intensely in the sink. There was no more flame.

Chris Ryan

Good.

Andy Greenwald

Before I left, I then disposed of the towel. And yet just now on the 5 Freeway. Sorry, no free ads on a freeway.

Chris Ryan

I. That's like the World cup stadium on Los Angeles. Los Angeles Road.

Andy Greenwald

I was on Los Angeles Freeway. And my thoughts are so. I am not this creative in my script writing as I am when anxious and driving to work because I imagined that one little smoldering ember was still inside of the towel and was now spreading to whatever no doubt highly flammable substance was in my trash can.

Chris Ryan

Yeah, your Calabrian chilies. What have you.

Andy Greenwald

Yeah, no, those are where they belong. I sent the. It's coming home, Chris. When it comes to the chilies. So that's where I am today.

Chris Ryan

You are worried that your house is engulfed in flames or maybe it's a fresh start. Okay, where would you like to start today? I mean, would you like to start with one of the three shows? Do you want to tell me a little bit about your cultural weekend? Would you like to save that for After Dark?

Andy Greenwald

We. Well, by the way, also, you know, we didn't. Maybe we were waiting for kya, or maybe now we're afraid to do it in front of kya. But we didn't do After Dark last Thursday where we were going to discuss the wedding of the century of New

Chris Ryan

York City with socialism or. Oh, Taylor. Right. Because we did talk about DSA last week. I don't want to lead with Taylor.

Andy Greenwald

No, I don't either. I'm saying. So that's probably our After Dark sorted.

Chris Ryan

Yes. Well, I mean, this is why we don't have a show on Thursday. We have Somewhere to be.

Andy Greenwald

You're just telling people now. Wow.

Chris Ryan

Okay, let's start with House of the Dragon.

Andy Greenwald

Yeah.

Chris Ryan

You know what? Just say it at the beginning. You went and saw the invite. It's only in seven theaters.

Andy Greenwald

Oh, we wanna say this at the beginning.

Chris Ryan

Sure. Cause it's only in seven theaters. And I think it's worth. Andy's movie corner is always a delight. So you give it a shout out.

Andy Greenwald

I mean, what a great movie.

Chris Ryan

Yeah, it will be rolling out, I think, over the next two weeks.

Andy Greenwald

I had a very unexpectedly spontaneous Los Angeles experience where I didn't know the movie was out. I then saw that it was. It's playing only in theaters that can play it in the 35 millimeter projection film format. So it's here at the Vista and it's probably in a couple other cities. And I just. There I was just a young. Nope. Just a man without a calling. And I went into the theater. I saw a movie I knew very little about. I think it's phenomenal. I loved it. And then Hollywood, baby, as soon as it was over. Olivia Wilde and Seth Rogen appear to be interviewed by someone who's coming for your crown, Sanaa Lathan.

Chris Ryan

Letter. I would love nothing more than to do battle with Sanaa Lathan from America's Host.

Andy Greenwald

I do want to talk about the movie, but.

Chris Ryan

And I do.

Andy Greenwald

I think she's a wonderful actor and I really like her. But I did feel a little bit like you don't see us auditioning for Love and basketball. Do you know what I mean? Like, there is a reason why it's generally you or Sean on a director's chair at the front of these things. Do you know what I mean? Because you usually don't begin your Q and A's by being like, man, whoa, am I right? Wow.

Chris Ryan

Maybe we should.

Andy Greenwald

Honestly, that would probably translate better anyway. I just couldn't believe that we can still make funny, engaging, emotional adult movies.

Chris Ryan

I think it's a phenomenal movie. It's a grown up movie and anybody listening to this should see it. There's a big picture episode in the can coming. I don't know exactly when. Sean's playing a little fast and loose with the schedule right now, but we did a pod about it and I love that movie.

Andy Greenwald

That's why you're saving your takes. Look at you.

Chris Ryan

It's not really saving my takes. It's just like 150 people got to see the movie. I don't want to spoil it.

Andy Greenwald

It's just us here. You can just Us gals, you can legal something. Sean's not listening. Sean can't hurt you here.

Chris Ryan

He does listen.

Andy Greenwald

I know.

Chris Ryan

Yeah. And then he stops when we start talking about TV shows, which we're gonna do now. Let's talk about House of the Dragon. I thought that one way to look at this episode, which I talked about with Mal and Joe, in depth. And I'm happy to answer any questions because now I am the lore master on the show.

Andy Greenwald

Okay. How's Mal doing?

Chris Ryan

Fine.

Andy Greenwald

Good.

Chris Ryan

Oh, because of anything in particular from this episode? So, spoilers.

Andy Greenwald

You said you could answer questions.

Chris Ryan

Oh, yeah. She's doing great. Spoilers for the second episode of House of the Dragon, season three, which, in some kind of calculus, could be viewed as the actual season finale for season two. So I saw much debate about this online, about whether or not, like, the first episode would serve as a better finale or the second episode. I think that in a way, we arrive at a very good stopping point for a certain story in that Rhaenyra is now back on the Iron Throne. But just in general, like, I wanted to do a little gut check for you because I have given. I have created a permission structure for you that we don't have to talk about this every week and that you don't. You shouldn't feel like you're in George R.R. martin Memorial State Penitentiary with me. What did you think of the episode?

Andy Greenwald

First of all, I watched too much television this weekend because my first reaction was it was a hideous end to the Chief designer. Like, I know that what's going on with the Soviet space program is a little. They're playing a little fast and loose security protocols.

Chris Ryan

Can we get Rhys for two days? Because Rhys Evans is currently one of the stars of Star City.

Andy Greenwald

Well, he's free for future seasons of Star City, let's put it that way. He's not going to be called back to Westeros anytime soon.

Chris Ryan

I have to say that the Otto Hightower ending.

Andy Greenwald

Yeah.

Chris Ryan

On this episode where he was two times, basically, Raniera had to take two swings at the.

Andy Greenwald

I believe he's called a two pump chump. I believe that's what that means. No.

Chris Ryan

Wouldn't she be the two pump jump in this case?

Andy Greenwald

I wouldn't comment.

Chris Ryan

That would be like one of my. That's a new Fear Unlocked is that I was going to be beheaded, but the first one missed.

Andy Greenwald

You've never had this fear before. No, you haven't done. Clearly, we had different middle and high school reading lists, because I do remember quite a lot of historical Textbooks discussing how the guillotine and wasn't always the model of efficiency that we believe it to be.

Chris Ryan

It works 50% of the time.

Andy Greenwald

That's exactly right. That's exactly right. That's rough stuff.

Chris Ryan

So that was. That was terrifying. But I thought, I thought a useful way to look at this show increasingly. And maybe this is. You could say this is cope. You could say this is like me trying to create, like, a language to talk about the show. But I think the more you look at it as this kind of like maximal, Maximalist opera, it kind of works better.

Andy Greenwald

Explain.

Chris Ryan

Well, because, you know, the people talking in rooms, broken characters trying to put together a broken world of Game of Thrones, the humor of Knight of the Seven Kingdoms, like, I think those are more approachable. And Game of Thrones, the reason why it was such a huge gateway for so many people was that those characters were not altogether different than ones you would see on Sopranos or, you know, like other television at the time. They were wearing capes, they had shields, but they were fathers and sons and daughters and brothers and sisters even, you know, and, and dragons.

Andy Greenwald

Eventually.

Chris Ryan

Eventually. But I think that they backloaded all that stuff and they backloaded a lot of, like, the hard, hard fantasy stuff that is in that text and led

Andy Greenwald

with, of course, yeah, family.

Chris Ryan

And, you know, I think House of the Dragon, every show probably is served well by this, where you can kind of figure out, like, what's the way to watch this and how should I be, which way should I lean when I'm, like, leaning it? You know, like, if I'm, if I'm, if I'm enjoying the show, what is the best way to sort of like, interpret it? And I do think seeing this as an almost like, heightened, kind of over, over dramatic in a good way show helps my enjoyment of it.

Andy Greenwald

I, I find that interesting and I find that. I find that compelling. I think when you were, you were saying that you were monitoring the debate about, like, where the season, season two ought to have ended or could have ended. Is it generally understood, like, what is the. In terms of the people who are really invested in the show, which clearly I am. I am not. But, like, is there a feeling of disappointment about what the second season was? Is there? Okay.

Chris Ryan

Yes.

Andy Greenwald

All right.

Chris Ryan

Almost universal.

Andy Greenwald

Fair.

Chris Ryan

Yeah, I, this, this America can agree on.

Andy Greenwald

That's really nice. That's really nice.

Chris Ryan

That was an abrupt season finale.

Andy Greenwald

It sure was. And look, I think there's, there's the type of criticism that we can do that, you know, when we talk about Shows that we're struggling with or that we're having mixed reactions to that can be categorized as constructive. There's the type of criticism that we do that is ultimately kind of a dead end, which is the things that we wish it could be. I don't really have a lot of that for this show because it is so just committed to a not being for me, which is fine. But I really do feel that it is entirely for people who are already within the coalition, let's say. So, like Mal and Joanna, who I adore. And when I hear you guys talk about the show or I hear them talk about the show, I. I'm always more interested in their perspective on it than I am on my own or even on the show itself. Because, for example, when on the Pod you did with them, Joanna was talking about the arrival of the Northmen. Yeah, the Starks. And she was talking about who these people were, what they represented within the world at this time. How exciting it was to see this on screen. How you could read so much into Daemon's reaction because he knows the history of them. And. And I thought, well, how nice for them. Like, when you drive past a quinceanera in downtown Pasadena. Do you know what I mean? I'm like, this looks like a beautiful day. I'm going to continue driving now. I was not invited. That's pretty much how I feel about the show at this point.

Chris Ryan

Outside looking in.

Andy Greenwald

Outside looking in. So, that said, there are threads here that I do find compelling, even within this episode. Like, if you were to think about it in terms of the larger Westerosi project, kind of like the Heritage foundation, you know, it's been. They're finally getting what they want. Rhaenyra claiming the throne with tears and snot running down her face after this nightmare of a day. Sure is in a vac. That's interesting. That's compelling. That's different than what we've seen. But my biggest. I mean, the biggest note that I took was the scene when, prior to flying to King's Landing. And I'm gonna need your help explaining why. They couldn't have just done this at any point. Are they just afraid of the one really big dragon?

Chris Ryan

Vhagar. Yeah.

Andy Greenwald

But she has, again, not unreasonably taken to her bed because her son is dead. And Daemon comes over and starts just. Just riffing. I mean, he just starts talking. He basically starts talking to her about prophecies, the way we would talk about spy novels and bars in the early 2000s. You know, like, no, you don't know what Len Dayton did in the third trilogy. And he's talking about the Song of Ice and Fire and the prophecy. And he's basically saying if all of this is true, that there's going to be someone who we know is Daenerys, who takes over the world eventually. Then you gotta get up, you gotta get back up, and you gotta get on your dragon and fly because of the story we have to fulfill. And I'm sitting here being like, this must be how the people locked in a room in Watford feel when they're writing this show. They're like, we gotta make the fucking story donuts. Because this is all fate. There is no emotional reason to do it. He's saying, go do all this so Daenerys can happen. Now, not only did we know Daenerys happened because we watched Game of Thrones, we also watched the last season of Game of Thrones, and it didn't work out great.

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Mm.

Andy Greenwald

So I wish that there was a. I wish in that moment of low emotion or real emotion that the reason for doing things was more tangible than there's a really good story I heard that many people enjoyed on hbo.

Chris Ryan

I think if you connect what he's saying, that it's a very wise way of looking at things that I think it presents a storytelling problem, but not a character problem. And I think one of the things that's been cool about this. First of all, I think Emma d' Arcy's doing a wonderful job this season.

Andy Greenwald

I agree with that. In a very different.

Chris Ryan

And that's like a very. That was what I was talking about, the operatic part, like her sitting down and the Reflection. Claire Kilner directed this episode. I think she does a wonderful job with the show. And the Reflection, in the blood of her taking the throne, her kind of looking both like a child, but also a broken man, like her father in the Throne, I thought was great. Allison showing up. You know, it's a very like. It's like Verdi. It's like, you know, like the person comes and sees their father killed right at the last second.

Andy Greenwald

Yeah.

Chris Ryan

But I think that the interesting moral problem, or not even moral, but like the problem solving problem that it presented, that character is you are incredibly important both as a war fighter, like, because you have a dragon.

Andy Greenwald

Yeah.

Chris Ryan

But also you are essential as a figurehead.

Andy Greenwald

Yep.

Chris Ryan

So if you are the. If you are the thing that this guy saw in his vision.

Andy Greenwald

Yep.

Chris Ryan

You actually can't do. Because we have to wrap you in bubble wrap.

Andy Greenwald

Yeah.

Chris Ryan

And that's why she can't go fight Aemond is. This is my interpretation of it.

Andy Greenwald

This is also why Joel Embiid can't do back to backs.

Chris Ryan

Well, the prince is the princess who was promised. You know, like it was. It was like the idea that the reason why Jace, while a bit dumb, was right was that she probably would have caught some harpoons out there in the first episode of the season. And if she goes down, this whole thing goes down. Because this isn't based on a political coalition or an alliance of families of like. You know what? This guy really has a lot of good ideas about how to run Westeros. This is a bunch of people have agreed on a myth or an idea or a dream or whatever.

Andy Greenwald

And a figurehead.

Chris Ryan

Yeah. And so she's got. It's gotta be her.

Andy Greenwald

They've gotten really good at doing the action stuff. They've gotten really good at making the dragons look good. But again, I think the thing that I just find unsatisfying and makes me think that ultimately this show is the Westerosi version of. I mean, I think you fed me this. I think you were right. Of like a Rings of Power type show, which is like. Or a Star Trek, whatever. The current show is on Paramount where it's like, if you love this stuff, you're going to find a lot to like here. And it might be a different storytelling, but for me, all of the interesting emotional storytelling is in parentheses between what is now endless scenes of overpowered video game heroes slicing through red shirts. There's just so much. Oh, here we are. Let me stab eight people through the throat. There's only Chris. I know you were surprised by what happened to Otto, but in my experience, there are limited ways to open up arterial veins.

Chris Ryan

Sure.

Andy Greenwald

There just aren't so many. You know what I mean? Maybe there's some.

Chris Ryan

Should we do a top five throat slashings in TV history right now? I mean, box cutter's gotta be number one from Breaking Bad.

Andy Greenwald

Oh, that's a good one. Yeah. Well, I mean, first of all, they're all good. You know, we live in a golden age. But you know what I mean? The reason I was thinking of that was when you were talking about the important. The bubble wrap nature of Rhaenyra. But it's also just weird to me, but necessary for storytelling that Rhaenyra and Daemon, who are essentially the soon to be incestuous king and queen of this reunited realm, they're like riding. They're riding to King's Landing on the back of their nuclear bombs. Like Doctor's Strangelove. And then they get off the bombs and they're like, no, we'll just stab. Do a little bit of stabbing. Oops. We got cornered. That seemed foolish until it all worked out.

Chris Ryan

Yeah. Joe pointed out something similar. So I was glad to know that that wasn't just like our casual eye being like, why did they do that? But I guess ultimately that's why Alicent had sort of gotten the gold cloaks, you know, Daemon's old crew on side. I think a good illustration of what you're talking about in that. I think it's a well done, well acted scene. But there is a scene in between Daemon leaving his army and getting back to Rhaenyra where he meets Alys Rivers, who is the witch.

Andy Greenwald

Who is that? Gale Rankin.

Chris Ryan

And that's Gale Rankin and that's the witch who ruled.

Andy Greenwald

I like this part.

Chris Ryan

Shotgun with him through the.

Andy Greenwald

With the weirwood, with him in the tree and her. It was a weird throat that's like

Chris Ryan

probably the most emblematic of like, did you guys miss schedule, this shoot? Like, how did this wind up that you have the most. One of the most dynamic characters on this show is kind of in isolation.

Andy Greenwald

Were you talking about the tree?

Chris Ryan

No, Matt Smith. And so Matt Smith and Gail Rankin are wonderful performers. And here's Alice, a mysterious woman with deep ties to Heron hall in some way.

Andy Greenwald

Yeah.

Chris Ryan

And Damon, who is, you know, dedicated to Rhaenyra. He is, but she may not be endgame for him. She may not be his one and only.

Andy Greenwald

Oh, you think he has some other nieces?

Chris Ryan

No, I just mean, like he was married before, you know, like he. He obviously has a thing or connection with Alice.

Andy Greenwald

Yeah.

Chris Ryan

That's a very, I think, significant scene in the larger narrative tapestry of this show. I think that will be a turning point. Did you read it as such or were you like, this is another like a room tone, two people talking about what they did and what they're going to do kind of moment.

Andy Greenwald

I feel the way I felt from the beginning with the show, which is why probably listening to me is diminishing returns. I cannot for the life of me see where the story is coming from. And what I mean by that is like looking at the fuel reserves of what we have to tell what's powering another season and a half. Right. I think they said that it was gonna be four seasons of story here, partly because giant ass dragons aside, the relative randomness to the casual of when they can and can't do things. Like everyone was so paralyzed for so many episodes of the show last season and then they just flew in and took the. The throne and now she's there.

Chris Ryan

Aemond was lured out to go to Harrenhal.

Andy Greenwald

Yeah but I that the amount he

Chris Ryan

finds a new gf but in order.

Andy Greenwald

Oh, that's right. Do you think he's going to be okay?

Chris Ryan

Aemond? Fine. But he's got.

Andy Greenwald

He's got a little.

Chris Ryan

But he has a new. New new agent in Alice.

Andy Greenwald

He got stuck a little bit in the back there.

Chris Ryan

I think he'll. He'll make it.

Andy Greenwald

I was glad to see a Targaryen actually get stabbed.

Chris Ryan

Yeah.

Andy Greenwald

I can't believe I just said that. Well, you got me just when I think about. But I thought that was nice. I just mean that like we began at the. We began. Remember. Remember when the. Remember when the battlefield on the show was the womb. We began with them as children just to get to a point where one of their children was distracted so they could go back. Like that is a. That is a lot of television made out of what feels like not a lot of real estate.

Chris Ryan

Sometimes I think it's. It feels and play is a little bit like the way it feels to read nonfiction where you're like. You're reading like I was reading like the Rick Atkinson Invasion trilogy. It was like Africa, Italy, okay. D Day and like I love them but there's 15 pages of. And then the men packed the socks and then the men packed 80,000 cans of tuna and the men packed underwear and the men.

Andy Greenwald

This is the part I'd like.

Chris Ryan

But that's a lot like you're. And you're kind of like, ah, yes, a storyteller might be like everything they needed they packed away.

Andy Greenwald

Right. It's a history, not a.

Chris Ryan

You know what I mean? And I think there is a dedication perhaps an over in the beginning. Ironically enough, since George R.R. martin and Ryan Condell had this sort of schism, there was in the beginning maybe an over deference to showing every step of the way totally in and. And no more so nor never more so than when they did a four episode preamble of these girls as teens.

Andy Greenwald

Y.

Chris Ryan

Because well, for whatever reason but they obviously didn't want to just be like here's grownup Allison and grown up Renera and their last moment of peace and now they're going to split.

Andy Greenwald

I. I think it's. It look it. It is interesting from a perspective of someone who is a fan of the industry and a. A. I mean we watch it like to see a show.

Chris Ryan

Just.

Andy Greenwald

No, I'm serious.

Chris Ryan

Like LinkedIn.

Andy Greenwald

Fan of the industry.

Chris Ryan

Fan of the industry, man.

Andy Greenwald

Well, that's because I'm just. That's just glazing Mickey and Conrad again. Can't help it. I. No, but that, like, who are some

Chris Ryan

of your favorite guys in the industry right now?

Andy Greenwald

Oh, my God.

Chris Ryan

Josh d'. Amaro.

Andy Greenwald

Josh d' Amaro is killing it right now. What about Gunner? You know, no one talks about Gunner anymore now that Paramount's buying Warner Brothers. But for a minute, Gunner was king. He was gonna have his own little fiefdom of networks. Then Ellison came over the top. I don't think we've heard the last of him. He's gonna take Harrenhal. I think I do find it interesting when shows, because of their. Whether it's because their actual quantitative success or the necessity of the project for the bottom line of the corporation or whatever to keep going as it fixes itself and rewrites itself and redirects itself. And I think that you couldn't get anyone on the record to say this, but if you. It would be fascinating at some point to read a postmortem of the show with Ryan Condal or with George Martin or both of them, ideally, or with other people in the room talking about how they. How the goals changed and what mistakes they feel were made. To get to this point, I don't mean to be, like, walking back or being overly negative about what I said last week, which was an episode like the Battle of the Gullet episode is in many ways, I think the best case scenario for what this show is. I'm not trying to wish it to be something else, but to bring it full circle. To answer your question, I enjoyed the scene you're talking about because I think that Gayle Rankin's slight, playful smirk on her witchy face is the closest this deadass, solemn show has come to any sense of humor or vibrancy. Yes, that's right. I do enjoy that. So I enjoy Matt Smith and Gale Rankin sharing the screen. At no point was I like, aha, this is a door opening into what the show's gonna be. Because I do not understand what the show is going to be unless I've signed up for a History of Westeros class.

Chris Ryan

You may have.

Andy Greenwald

Apparently, I have.

Chris Ryan

You may have.

Andy Greenwald

And I've been truant, and you're not allowing it.

Chris Ryan

I thought Larys and Aegon were like a kind of breath of fresh air, even though obviously both deformed men, one whose skin is still burning off apparently, yeah.

Andy Greenwald

So you think it smelled like my kitchen this morning? A little bit.

Chris Ryan

They are also completely on the same page in how they are acting. So there is just a much more of a naturalistic style going on between those two. Most of this show is like, I have walked into a chamber and I am like my queen, which, by the

Andy Greenwald

way, is also the bear season five. But I can't wait to talk about that.

Chris Ryan

We can, actually.

Andy Greenwald

It's just people walking into rooms going, hey, can I ask you a question? What a golden age of people walking into rooms to talk to someone else in the room.

Chris Ryan

Oh, because television's got so many other ideas than walking into rooms.

Andy Greenwald

No, we always come back to the classics. You're not wrong. You're not wrong.

Chris Ryan

Anything else you wanted to hit from HotD before we move on?

Andy Greenwald

No, I just. Can you explain? Rhaena's the one who ghost rode the dragon and now is like, I screwed up.

Chris Ryan

Yes. And she went to the Vale. She went back to the Vale, where she was basically on an extended babysitting gig with some of other Rhaenyra's kids and was just trying to get them out of harm's way. And because she hadn't claimed a dragon yet, she was given this sort of belittling task. She goes out there. It's the veil.

Andy Greenwald

Yeah.

Chris Ryan

She finds Sheep Stealer, who's.

Andy Greenwald

And we've all agreed that's his name.

Chris Ryan

Feral.

Andy Greenwald

Yeah.

Chris Ryan

Trains him.

Andy Greenwald

Yeah.

Chris Ryan

In so much as she claims him, but can't get him to do anything. She wants half of what she wants, but then the other half is kind of like, well, whatever is down there is getting lit up.

Andy Greenwald

She does the thing. He does the thing that she wants. He just does it across the board.

Chris Ryan

Yeah. And then he.

Andy Greenwald

Both sides it.

Chris Ryan

She flies him back to the veil, Right. Says to Jane, what's up? Can I get some refuge here? Jane's like, nah.

Andy Greenwald

Right.

Chris Ryan

And she's like, well, I have a dragon. I'll protect the veil. And she's like, I just won't look for you.

Andy Greenwald

Yeah, you can be there.

Chris Ryan

You can have that hill that we're going to pretend isn't there. Is that what you were asking?

Andy Greenwald

What if someone did that for us in, like, Somerset? Like, you don't. I'm not going to go over here where this cottage is. You could just hang out, rough sleep

Chris Ryan

out in the meadow somewhere.

Andy Greenwald

I'm going to turn your Charlie Rose bit back on you for one second. And Raina, I know you from where

Chris Ryan

she's one of the Kids?

Andy Greenwald

Whose kids?

Chris Ryan

She's Bayless sister, right?

Andy Greenwald

Oh, Bayla. Yeah.

Chris Ryan

And Bayla is Corlys's granddaughter. I mean, it's all mixed up. You got to look at the family tree. You can do the work. You can get the map of Westeros out. You can get the family tree out. You know, if you want, you can Google. Google your ass off, Chris, and find out what happens.

Andy Greenwald

Man, I'm 49 years old. Like, I, you know, can't Google. First of all, I still ask Jeeves. I'm going backwards.

Chris Ryan

Yeah.

Andy Greenwald

I'm not Googling. It's just. I'm not doing their AI nonsense. It's not even a good search engine anymore.

Chris Ryan

You don't Google?

Andy Greenwald

No.

Chris Ryan

What do you use?

Andy Greenwald

I use my brain computer. I just have a certainty about things. It's like what we used to do. We would just be like. Do you remember how free it was to like, be at a bar and to start talking about some cartoon we misremembered from the 80s and being like. No, I'm pretty sure that was real.

Chris Ryan

That we were young, our brains were sharp, fresh, and often superpowered. And we were like, I have complete recall for all of this shit.

Andy Greenwald

All space and time. Yeah.

Chris Ryan

And now I'll be like, do you remember that thing you said yesterday? And then I will. I will sundown and not be able to remember A, what was said yesterday, but B, why I brought it up in the first place.

Andy Greenwald

Yeah, it's true. We did have a beautiful moment last week, though.

Chris Ryan

This is.

Andy Greenwald

This is a positive spin on this where I texted you something that I just remembered you had said on the pod and I thought was so charming and you said, who's this? No, you knew me.

Chris Ryan

I had no recollection of saying that.

Andy Greenwald

No memory.

Chris Ryan

Yeah. This is what happens when you. When you are on microphone five days a week is. I just can't remember.

Andy Greenwald

Do you think that you.

Chris Ryan

And honestly, that would be good. Like, I hope I do. Like, I would love to be brought in front of Congress. And I can just say, honestly, I don't. I don't know.

Andy Greenwald

Yeah.

Chris Ryan

But I do not recall.

Andy Greenwald

But Kai and Kaya have an archive. Like, you're gonna get undone. Senator. Senator Cassidy's gonna.

Chris Ryan

That certainly looks like me. But I just don't remember saying.

Andy Greenwald

I'm just picturing like. Like Sheldon Whitehouse and like Blumenthal being like. And so you characterize the events of January 6th as once.

Chris Ryan

Are those guys still senators? They are. Yeah, they are.

Andy Greenwald

Oh, I thought you meant like. I thought you were like dissing them.

Chris Ryan

No, I was just. I couldn't remember if Sheldon was still rocking it.

Andy Greenwald

Yeah, Sheldon's. He's still. He's still. You know what else?

Chris Ryan

The great state of Rhode Island.

Andy Greenwald

Yeah.

Chris Ryan

Who are not participating in the fair of fairs in Washington. All the states.

Andy Greenwald

Rhode island is not. Anyone else.

Chris Ryan

Not the commie corridor is not participating. Pretty much.

Andy Greenwald

That's sick.

Chris Ryan

Yeah.

Andy Greenwald

So that's. That's. That's New England pretty much.

Chris Ryan

And Pennsylvania.

Andy Greenwald

Has A.J. brown weighed in on that? I'm just trying to like, unite the streams here, you know? You know what I'm wondering though? There is a remarkable archive of you now and your takes and, you know, piece by piece, your personal history, even our shared history.

Chris Ryan

Sure.

Andy Greenwald

They're gonna Samoan your ass.

Chris Ryan

Oh. Make me like, make an AI bot out of it.

Andy Greenwald

There's gonna be. Don't you think it might be a decent to good hanging just AI Chris. Am I wrong? Like, I feel like has this whole thing.

Chris Ryan

Do you think Anthropic could win back the federal government if they were like, the new guy. The new agent is Chrissy. And he just.

Andy Greenwald

If it wasn't.

Chris Ryan

This guy loves Lioness.

Andy Greenwald

If it was just you laughing if

Chris Ryan

every time you're like, chrissy, what's this rash? And it's just like, you know what? In Lioness Season two, Episode four, Joe, played by Zoe Saldana, asks the same thing.

Andy Greenwald

First of all, listeners know that there was a period in 2004, 5 and 6 when you watched so many episodes of House MD I would ask you medical advice.

Chris Ryan

True.

Andy Greenwald

And you pretty much told me if it was or wasn't lupus. And you were 100% right. It was never lupus. Have I just blown the lid off this thing?

Chris Ryan

I'm sure. I'm sure. Like, I don't think we're the first people to be in danger of getting completely digitized and then obviated.

Andy Greenwald

Not me. This is all an act. This isn't even me. You guys don't even know my real name.

Chris Ryan

So you actually love House of the Dragon.

Andy Greenwald

You don't know what I like. So I constantly zag to defeat the machines.

Chris Ryan

This episode is brought to you by FanDuel predicts. You can predict the summer soccer showcase action all the way to the final match with FanDuel predicts. All you have to do is sign up to get your $25 bonus. From the opening game to the final whistle. Stay locked in with every pass, every goal, and every moment that moves us closer to crowning a champion. Sign up now for your 20 bonus on FanDuel Predicts, go to FanDuel.com predicts to sign up. That's FanDuel.com predicts to get your $25 bonus. Disclaimer offered by FanDuel Prediction Markets LLC, a registered Futures Commission merchant. 18 and over. Restrictions apply. See terms@fanduel.com predict bonus offer terms. So we had initially talked about doing the Bear in chunks, like doing three, three, two. Uh, we're not doing a show on Thursday. We've both finished the series.

Andy Greenwald

Yeah.

Chris Ryan

Due to the nature of which they released the show, obviously a binge. But also in, you know, the first seven episodes have been made made available to the press. And then the final episode went up on Friday. Thursday.

Andy Greenwald

Right.

Chris Ryan

Thursday night. They.

Andy Greenwald

I mean all the episodes went up concurrently. So the first time.

Chris Ryan

So that was when. And then I watched it on Friday. Right. And I think that as we sort of saw on our previous conversation about the first few episodes. Were you very catholic of. You were like. You said we were going to do three. I did three. And then I was like, I watched all seven and I have a completely different opinion. Let's just finish it.

Andy Greenwald

That's what happens when AI hallucinates. Just doesn't even listen to the prompt.

Chris Ryan

I'm sorry, I just need your Social Security number before we finish this.

Andy Greenwald

That does sound challenging. Have you ever considered murder?

Chris Ryan

So let's talk about the rest of the season of the Bear. This is season five of the Bear. So spoilers for the entirety of it. Spoilers for all of the Bear. Just fair warning.

Andy Greenwald

It does seem anecdotally that especially with an eight episode runtime this season, which is the first eight episode season, I believe, since the first it had done 10 for the past few seasons, it does seem like people just binge the show.

Chris Ryan

It does.

Andy Greenwald

I mean, I can't speak for everyone, but I don't know many people who savor it. Especially this season, which was so.

Chris Ryan

It was not. I do not. I will go to my grave. People at F Effects, even Christopher Stor could tell us, like, no, no, no. I. It's episodic. Like, I want people to like watch it and take it some time. No, not this year. I. This was a tasting menu of a season. You were supposed to sit there for the whole thing. That's what it's about one day. Well, then with a coda. And I think that you. It's meant to be enjoyed as much together as possible. So with that being said, after watching the first three episodes and Being like, I am as close as I ever have been to sending this back to the chef. How do you feel about it after watching the complete.

Andy Greenwald

After enjoying the complete meal, I thought that episodes seven and eight were compelling and lovely and a nice coda to a series that now I feel confident saying, should have ended two or three years ago. I thought that the show kicked into action when the cooking actually started.

Chris Ryan

So that's episode five, really, right?

Andy Greenwald

Five or six?

Chris Ryan

I believe so. Five is when they start, they open, but nobody has shown up. Right.

Andy Greenwald

The moment that the season suddenly had a pulse to me was when Carmi cooks the lamb and pours a little tonato on top of it.

Chris Ryan

But it's Chekhov's tonato.

Andy Greenwald

It was Chekhov's Donato, that tuna. I mean. And to that point, I appreciated the moment when it all suddenly seemingly goes wrong in seven. Because breaking plates is a lot better than spinning plates, which is really what the show had been doing for upwards of 20 episodes.

Chris Ryan

Or did you just come up with it?

Andy Greenwald

Yeah, I wrote that one down. I wrote that one down. You were right. Did you see my eyes?

Chris Ryan

No, but I was like, that's really good. If you're just. If you're just dealing.

Andy Greenwald

No. Every so often in my notes app, there's like a line where I was like, put me back in coach. Cracks knuckles. Get that Grenlin column going.

Chris Ryan

I can tell.

Andy Greenwald

I can tell every so often. No, I mean, honestly, this is one of those times only because the.

Chris Ryan

You wish you had, like, 2,000 words

Andy Greenwald

because the totality of it is deserving of it and the relationship to the show is complicated enough that I think no matter what we talk about now, it's not really going to capture the full extent of it, because I think there's very little way to express the nuance necessary to say that. I think it is impossible now. Maybe in a few weeks or months, with some hindsight, that might change, but I think it is impossible now for me to think of this series as a success. Separate and apart from the fact that the first two seasons are two of the best seasons of TV of this century, is that enough? Honestly, probably. And it was certainly enough to give me some pleasure at the end of this season. But the sheer amount of time spent with characters, as we were joking about before, I don't know if everyone listens to each segment. But with House of the Dragon, the majority of this season, up to the moment when it kicks into action, is people. One character walking into a room saying, hey, can I ask you A question, and they talk about something that happened in the previous episode. There is no momentum from scene to scene. There is no build. There is no individual story other than Oliver Platt and fucking Brian Koppelman driving around Chicago yelling at people about air rights. A story that also goes nowhere just to kind of get out of the claustrophobia of the restaurant. I thought it was extremely frustrating, and I think you could. You could capture all of that. And I do want to talk about the positive things of those two episodes. I don't want to get too far off the path with that. But the arrested, paralyzed nature of the show is captured best in the absolute petrification of its main character. From, I believe, midway through season three until he puts on a tie in episode 508. Jeremy Allen White is a bizarrely stoic Easter island statue of himself standing in the background of this season of tv. Now, is that a story worth telling where Sidney takes over and everyone else steps up and he learns that he actually has a team behind him to catch him if he falls or trust falls. That's a meaningful story. Did he have to be on the show to prove it? Did it have to take this long to get there? I genuinely don't know. And that's when we start to go into the place where I don't necessarily want to get into, which is, who asked for this and what argument did they make to do it? Because it was such a struggle to get to a place that I think was deserving.

Chris Ryan

Okay, so I'll try and hit some of your points, and we can just make this into more of a back and forth rather than like a. And allow me to retort kind of thing. I'll say that beyond you called it compelling, I found seven to be deep, deeply moving. You know, like both, because I think this is what I alluded to last Thursday. There's an authenticity, I think, to the characters and the performances. Whether or not they are always being put in a position of maximal entertainment value or interesting storytelling is completely up for debate. And your mileage may vary with that, but the behaviors and the emotional states of a lot of these people ring true to me. And some of their experiences ring very true to me. And to watch them get some kind of catharsis, but also, honestly, to watch them actually in action again, doing what they do.

Andy Greenwald

Yeah.

Chris Ryan

The first time in a long time. To see them kind of, like, be together and moving around and helping one another and hurting one another and yelling at one another, but also, like, improvising and finding solutions and fixes I found it really, really effective. And honestly, the Carmi stuff was like, secondary to me. I. I found myself just really, really blown away by Eben Moss Backrock this season.

Andy Greenwald

That's where we should go.

Chris Ryan

And the Richie character. I think you could make an argument that this show is more about Richie and Sid than it is about Carmi.

Andy Greenwald

In terms of journey, in terms of transformation. Absolutely. Yes.

Chris Ryan

Now we can. Here's the magic trick. Richie goes from a guy screaming about incels and, you know, Blade Runner and can't control himself and is essentially like keeping the place alive, dealing coke in the alley.

Andy Greenwald

Right.

Chris Ryan

To a six week stage experience at Ever. Where he. Is that. How long he's there?

Andy Greenwald

Shorter.

Chris Ryan

Shorter. However long, but not very long. He's at Ever and he comes out the other side with a completely different worldview and a completely different set of priorities. We can debate whether or not that's realistic.

Andy Greenwald

It's realistic. It's the Chris Ryan story.

Chris Ryan

Absolutely.

Andy Greenwald

Look at him. I mean, Bill Simmons finishing school.

Chris Ryan

That's right. It only took 14 years. I always thought that his character this season expressed himself through action, even if that action was doing the, like, table.

Andy Greenwald

Like the EMDR kind of therapy.

Chris Ryan

Yeah, that kind of like, I heard this on a podcast. I think I'm supposed to do this kind of coping mechanisms. And his conclusion of going to Japan and getting to see the Ninja museum and going with Jess, but also like even that moment with him and Carmi in the freezer where he's just like, I've never been on a plane. And that was like. That felt earned. I felt like I'd been on the road trip and we finally got to the Woodrow Wilson rest stop together.

Andy Greenwald

I. What was the other one? Joyce.

Chris Ryan

Joyce something.

Andy Greenwald

Yeah, but Joyce was a man. We found out. Did you know that?

Chris Ryan

I did not know that. We're talking about New Jersey Turnpike.

Andy Greenwald

Sorry, I'm distracting. Evan Moss Bacharach's performance absolutely is the beating heart of the show. The transformation of Richie is a beautiful thing to watch, and it's also something that I don't want to take for granted. One thing that happens when you have a show in your life with the consistency of the Bear is that you begin to blur the lines between actor and character and you just begin to assume that they show up and are just, you know, it's second nature to them. You almost forget about the magic trick of acting and watching not just where he started that character and where he ended that character and realizing that he was holding something consistently the whole time and Then you see an interview with him or you see a video clip of him talking to someone and he's a distinctive looking guy and he looks different when he is not being Richie. I mean, he is completely subsumed into this character and understands him on a cellular level. And the wins of the show, I mean, to be clear, like, I've never really had a problem with the pathos of the Bear. Like, it is a big, sloppy, bloody, rare steak in terms of its emotions.

Chris Ryan

It's got an open heart.

Andy Greenwald

And him excelling and making things happen for people. And the recurring mantra in seven of I got you and how you kind of fake it till you make it when you speak to people you care about that you keep repeating it and then they do have each other, that they do dig deeper and find something. Well, it was meaningful, I mean, and it was effective and I really, really enjoyed that. I think I had trouble with the. How long it took to get to a place that was already. We were already on the precipice of it, if that makes sense. But I did think that there were some smart decisions looking at the show through his lens, like there was more. There were more places for him to go, whereas I did feel other characters were kind of just playing the hits or whether that's the opportunity they were given on screen or the performer themselves, I'm not sure. One thing that I didn't love in the season, for example, was, like, Lionel Boyce, who plays Marcus, who I really like. The journey of the character overall, which was becoming more and more morose and serious and dramatic, and then culminates in him basically having a personality transplant for 6 and 7. Now, I understand it's because his father's coming and he's feeling pressure, but I also just felt the heavy hand of. We need some friction to occur in this just absolute love fest that is

Chris Ryan

the Bear, I think, between him and Lucas specifically. But I think it was also like, you can't. There's no jeopardy if. If all these people are essentially like

Andy Greenwald

deep down geniuses who all get along geniuses.

Chris Ryan

But also like, you know, Marcus's whole problem in the kitchen has been how deliberate he is. Like, they've always wanted him to go faster. They've always wanted. And what this last service or the last service of the Bear shows is like, this is the maximum amount of nothing goes right. But when nothing goes right, like, the creativity is actually sparked. So that's where, you know, Carmi thinks because he's dropped this lamb, the last lamb, that the entire night is ruined. But it's actually like unlocks him once they get his back to create brioche out of nothing and finish off Marcus's last dish so that the Michelin star guy, who's just a guy, just a guy can have like the dessert of a lifetime. And everybody gets to basically be the best versions of themselves during that dinner. It's like the idea of having a cigarette and beer soaked outdoor party patio next to a Michelin starred tasting menu is. Would that work? Does. Is there a place like that? I don't know, but that sounds pretty cool if it.

Andy Greenwald

And if there is, it would be in Chicago.

Chris Ryan

And it allows the facts to be the facts. You know what I mean? Instead of asking us to be like all these guys turned into like matri Ds from heaven. Like they are like, no, I'm the guy who like when everything's kind of going wrong, I'm like, dude, let's go out and smoke a cigarette. You know, like, that's kind of fun. And I thought that the reason why the season worked for me, even if it felt repetitive to you, like where you're like, it's just people walking into rooms and asking each other how they're doing or like, what did they think of what just happened five minutes ago? First of all, that's basically what offices are like. Like they are very repetitive of like just going like, hey, like, did you see that thing? And what are you going to do about this thing? Maybe that's not great television, but it did. It wasn't crazy to me that it was happening. But where the third and fourth season, especially the third, if I'm remembering correctly, had a lot of like really intense close ups. Isolation. Can't really tell if this person is

Andy Greenwald

in the same room.

Chris Ryan

Not on the in the morning show level, but like it's about like almost trying to get interiority by boring into people with the camera. This season got into interiority by putting like people on like a stage base together. I mean, the restaurant is shot completely differently. It looks like a soundstage to me. And I thought, I thought that they got where people were at in their lives by doing. Rather than saying for me, to your

Andy Greenwald

point about Michelin star dining, like, I think that one of the interesting moments of tension in 7 was the images of people going into the dining room. And then we see their perspective and we see people enjoying themselves and celebrating. And then that's. That's countered with or juxtaposed with Richie being like, get the fuck up, get the fuck up. Which is a feeling that actually doesn't really engender a nice experience in a restaurant when you are being rushed out. And the idea that like 10 minutes per chorus, 90 minutes. I don't know if people would walk away being like that was really a special celebration. But that tension was interesting even to

Chris Ryan

they might if they were like, and now do you want to go outside

Andy Greenwald

and smoke a blood blow rails with some hams? I thought look to use the show itself is so drenched in food culture and that I think it actually is appropriate to use metaphors in this case. And I don't know if you've read or anyone listening has read some of the recent reviews of the French Laundry. Now, the French Laundry is an urtext of this show.

Chris Ryan

She said the God TK the God

Andy Greenwald

TK Thomas Keller, who helped Carmi truss a chicken in a flashback that was reused liberally in the season as well. The thing about the French Laundry when it opened was that it was so quietly confident and revolutionary. And every dish felt like it came from the mind of a genius. And it was an incredibly special experience because you traveled for it. You know, you're up in the Napa Valley and you part of mid course meal, you walk through the garden or you go to the kitchen. And a lot of what people in America think of as the finest of fine dining or destination dining comes from that. He then became Thomas Keller, became a celebrity, and people would, you know, spend enormous amount of money to eat there. And then he kind of franchised the bakery thing and he opened Per Se in New York, which tried to give you the French Laundry experience at a mall in Columbus Circle. And recently, both Per Se and the French Laundry have been re reviewed by New York Times critics and by San Francisco Chronicle critics. And they've been pretty rough. Basically being like the salmon cornetto is a brilliant idea, but it's also like someone showing up at, you know, Freeze London and I'm like, I've painted a Titian. Like someone already did that. Like this is part of our culture now and we're responding to it. And there's a freshness issue here. So I think you are right to point out that when the show's magic was when people, these beautiful actors and these beautiful characters and the sensitive, emotional camera was digging something out of the raw ingredients that we were given on the screen. And then the show kept going back, hoping to get a similar flavor pop from those same scenes. And it was diminishing returns. I would. I would point out the scene Robert Townsend, who's given one of the best performances in the history of the Bear in his like four or five appearances as Sidney's father. The scene where he. Where the two of them are at the diner in the finale is a beautiful scene. It's completely successful and it's pure bear because it is so naturalistic and so emotional and clever and lovely and lived in. And you're like, was there a script or are they just. Are they just having a good time? And you could feel it work and it still works sometimes. And then there's a scene where like Marcus and Carmi are talking and Marcus is just in order to explain himself is basically saying what I only imagine is Chris Storer or one of his writers experience turning on the Criterion channel. Watch it live the night before. Like Marcus is suddenly trying to explain himself through the prism of some dark foreign movie he saw the night before. And I'm like, this feels phony to me. This feels staged and artificial and is trying to mine something out of very little. Everything you are saying, I appreciate and speaks to the love that I have had for the show, but I feel frustrated.

Chris Ryan

Yeah. Maybe I'm just a little bit sappier. Or maybe Sid saying fire Brussels to Tina. Really?

Andy Greenwald

That got you?

Chris Ryan

Yeah, man. I think that like there are different examples in pop culture of things that will hit you. And I know for instance, that like you're very like susceptible to examples of fathers and daughters, for instance.

Andy Greenwald

We don't know why.

Chris Ryan

Yeah.

Andy Greenwald

I just mentioned Robert Townsend in IO Debery scene.

Chris Ryan

Let's talk about the conclusion of the show a little bit.

Andy Greenwald

Okay. One major thing from the conclusion of the show.

Chris Ryan

Yeah.

Andy Greenwald

I really respect Sydney packs internationally the way I pack.

Chris Ryan

Yeah.

Andy Greenwald

We have the same opinions about one of every over the counter drug. Easily reachable just for confidence. And more than that, half a Xanax is really all you need. She's right. You know, I thought that was a really good point. For sure.

Chris Ryan

I thought that was good too. I felt bad for. That's a long flight for Richie to be in coach at the window.

Andy Greenwald

He's in coach, but he's at the window. And he's got a lovely companion guy.

Chris Ryan

He's got Jesse in middle. Although I couldn't tell if is that a three seater or a two seater?

Andy Greenwald

Run the tape.

Chris Ryan

Let's go back, guys. In Economy plus or what do we do? Comfort plus.

Andy Greenwald

I mean, I think Pellegrino could. Here's the way I saw it. I bet Pellegrino could have flown him Comfort plus. And there is a Direct flight, Chicago to Tokyo. But did they also invite Jess? Did he get comfort? And then he said, you know what? Instead, give me two economy seats.

Chris Ryan

Right.

Andy Greenwald

And in fact, one full bar of zest.

Chris Ryan

Like, we're just, we're totally down to work with you on however you want to do this.

Andy Greenwald

Whatever you need.

Chris Ryan

The conclusion is that Carmi goes, follows through with his decision to leave the Bear.

Andy Greenwald

Right.

Chris Ryan

Sid and Richie and the gang are going to continue to do the restaurant. Ibrahim's idea to franchise the beef has come through. There is a very lovely moment where he calls the character that was played by Rob Reiner and says, as you wish. I'm glad you caught that call back to Princess Bride. There's lots of little, like, eggs, Easter eggs in there. Go fast mojito boats or go fast boats mojitos.

Andy Greenwald

Yeah.

Chris Ryan

But there's a WI fi password.

Andy Greenwald

There was also some cute little nods, like when Dee Dee asks if. No, it's not Dee Dee. Who asks if Sid and Carmi are in a relationship.

Chris Ryan

Somebody asked Pete that and he's like, there are theories.

Andy Greenwald

There are theories out there. I mean, there was a little self awareness.

Chris Ryan

And I think even their hug at the end was like, is this happening? And then it was just like, no. These guys just like, that's good. So the Bear, the conclusion of the Bear as a restaurant. I, I, I think that there is like a, a real obvious feelgood aspect to that. I want to talk to you about Carmi's fate.

Andy Greenwald

Wait, I, I have one other question about the, the, the, the restaurant. The moment when we find out the fact that it wasn't Starman, wasn't Starman, that it was the guy that we all thought it was from, God knows. Season three, Season four. I don't remember. The snow night, I believe is four. Middle of season four. I thought that was well done. I like that. I think that really tracked with the heart of the show, that there's something beautiful about restaurants, but something that is also very temporary and fleeting. And you can't create magic. You can just move on to the next night and try it again. And so this beautiful night was not the one that will be memorialized in the review. But did you feel there was any kind of, I'll say the word, cowardice in the. No, you didn't get a star. You got two. Did you feel like that was. Yeah. Cause it's just like everybody, it's, look under your seat. Everybody gets car keys. Did you feel any of that or were you just in your bag about the Brussels Sprouts still. And you were feeling it, like, what

Chris Ryan

do you want to have happen to these people?

Andy Greenwald

I mean, I kind of wanted them to be like, no star, but it's like a promising review, and now you can go build this into the next one.

Chris Ryan

I think that I'm being intentionally provocative to have some sort of validation in that they've made the star such a thing that's going to keep this place open.

Andy Greenwald

Right, Right.

Chris Ryan

Like, their price point is probably too high.

Andy Greenwald

Yep.

Chris Ryan

I thought that by the end of it, culinarily, like, they arrived at a place that was like, the middle ground between the beef and Carmi's kind of, like, overworked stuff.

Andy Greenwald

That's true.

Chris Ryan

So doing coke ribs.

Andy Greenwald

And that's the French Montana tape that I was telling you about.

Chris Ryan

Doing, like, Sydney's mother's ribs. Tina's Brussels sprouts, You know, the banana foster banana sun. The sundae that Marcus is making. Like, the things that these guys are all making are to, to grab a phrase from the Top Chef judges. They're cooking their food, they're telling their story.

Andy Greenwald

You know, they're putting their heart on a plate.

Chris Ryan

They are. And so I did not mind that the end of a series had a happy ending. You like?

Andy Greenwald

Yeah. I wanted the rage.

Chris Ryan

You want Carmen to be like, we got two stars, but I'm staying now and I'm still the boss.

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I know.

Andy Greenwald

Let's. This is what you wanted to ask about.

Chris Ryan

So, I mean, this has been probably amongst. Among people. Talking about the bear is like, ending it on seven or in halfway through eight is an enormously satisfying thing. The birthday cake for Richie's daughter, like, the whole cast gathering, Hartnett zooming in.

Andy Greenwald

You know, like, Bob Odenkirk showing up.

Chris Ryan

Odenkirk. I thought that that was really nice. Yeah. And I, I really liked that they did not make Claire the, like, I gotta go see about a girl, you know, like, I know it was referenced of, like, did you call her yet? And he was like, I'll call her tomorrow.

Andy Greenwald

I, I. For as much as I am ragging on the show for its fast sprint towards emotion at all times, I thought the restraint shown in the end was very, very lovely. I really thought that that was a nice gesture to.

Chris Ryan

And I'm glad Carmi didn't wake up the next day and turn into fucking comic relief Robin Williams. I'm glad that he's still haunted and still not a great hang and has his issues, you know?

Andy Greenwald

Yeah.

Chris Ryan

I thought that maybe almost to a point of, like, its detriment where it was like, I kind of wanted a personality transplant for this character by the end. And he's going into what is ostensibly a job interview at the end and talking about, like, his trauma.

Andy Greenwald

I want to talk about that, and I also want to discuss. I mean, we're not people to say it, but who's the bigger Chicago legend? Weatherman Tom Skilling or Bonnie Hunt? Tbd.

Chris Ryan

We can't decide that Mulaney's coming from that crown, man. He's playing Wrigley.

Andy Greenwald

That's true. That is true. I don't want to leave like the cooks. I don't want to leave a bad taste in people's mouth here. Like, at its best, this show was such a brilliant and beautiful exploration of therapy, but with drama and with professionalism and work and the realities of living in a city and being alive right now, that I thought that the place where it ended, which was a really deep sense of the things that matter, go on. Whether it's Marcus saying goodbye to Luca, and you understand that people sometimes move in different directions, but they are. They have a bond, and they will be happy to see each other again, whether it's Claire and fucking the, you know, the store players, minus Brie Larson just showing up for a day. And the celebration being.

Chris Ryan

Who is her name? Is that Fanny? Franny.

Andy Greenwald

Francine.

Chris Ryan

Francine.

Andy Greenwald

And that it being a celebration for Richie's daughter that brings everyone out because ultimately, getting together for family and lifting each other up is something.

Chris Ryan

Yeah. If you find a physical space to make everybody feel special, that's the goal of the restaurant. Not all restaurants.

Andy Greenwald

No, but of life. And you get the sense that the restaurant itself could go away. You get a sense that people could come and go and leave and Carmi could leave, but they have built something that is lasting if it is tended to. And I think that was a beautiful summation of what the show always was. And as someone who briefly had a podcast about TV shows ending like that needs to be celebrated.

Chris Ryan

Don't sell yourself short, man. If architecture school doesn't work out, you can always come back to podcast.

Andy Greenwald

So all of that was. Was wonderful. Did you specifically Carmi leaving or not leaving? I think there was some confusion of the fact that he is interviewing for an internship and monologuing about his feelings. And then it is intercut with a. The birthday party and scenes with him back at the restaurant. So is the implication that he is back because this is still a family and his friends are there, but he himself is no longer chopping onions?

Chris Ryan

I did not think that he was like that. That interview went poorly. I'm back at the restaurant.

Andy Greenwald

Did you think as management that the interview went well?

Chris Ryan

I don't think that. I don't think Mulaney set him up to succeed. That the Mulaney character being like, just share your shit. That's what's hot right now. I was like, I didn't. I don't know if that's the case.

Andy Greenwald

Yeah. In 2026. I don't know if that's the best way to get a fast track internship by.

Chris Ryan

But I thought that the idea of this guy who wants to express himself through art or express himself. He wants to find a new ally for his creative spirit. I don't know anything about architecture or what kind of apprenticeship you have to go through or if Carmen's been to college. I didn't.

Andy Greenwald

I don't think he did.

Chris Ryan

I don't think he did.

Andy Greenwald

He's had quite an education.

Chris Ryan

I don't know, like what you can do if you've not been well.

Andy Greenwald

What do they say to him? What does Sidney say? What skills do you have? And he says, none.

Chris Ryan

None of them. Yeah.

Andy Greenwald

Not true. He is a pretty good cook.

Chris Ryan

Yeah. I mean, I think he could always like cook. Sling burgers, you know? Like.

Andy Greenwald

Do you think that in the year 2026, franchising a sandwich shop for ghost kitchens is a mind blowing idea? When they were all like, holy shit. Oh my God. Did you think that was so you didn't.

Chris Ryan

I thought that the two. I thought that the cheese computer Uncle Jimmy was a necessary like, get out of the. Get out of the restaurant. Do some. We gotta have something else. Aside from like only shots at the restaurant. I. I thought that the scene where they go to get. To get the air raids from that lady and like there's a Ray is somewhere. They're like, fuck you, Ray. That was kind of funny, but like also like, ultimately it was like, can you imagine? They got to the end of the show and they were like, that's a bad idea to Ibrahim.

Andy Greenwald

Yeah. And they were like. And you got no stars and the restaurant's closed.

Chris Ryan

And I guess we wanted different.

Andy Greenwald

Birthdays are canceled. No, no. Last. The last thing I'll say. And then I do want. I want to make a bigger point about it is I hated the music. I think that was the other thing that took me out. I hated the Tron essence.

Chris Ryan

I liked it.

Andy Greenwald

I think it needed to relax.

Chris Ryan

I thought we. I thought they overdid. The needle drops three and four. And I thought I am in general pretty deaf to like, cool needle drop. It has nothing to do with what's happening.

Andy Greenwald

You know, like, you're gonna love Supergirl, from what I understand.

Chris Ryan

But my point, like, I just think that they've got. We've gotten away from like building out emotional textures of stories with original music because people are like so drunk on like. And did you see the playlist that I made? You know, it's like the bears. The official bear playlist on Spotify is awesome. I listen to it all the time. It's a great collection of music. I thought they relied too heavily on 3 and 4. And I thought getting out of the way and having a albeit reminiscent of Social Network or Manhunter or Thief or whatever was cool. It got out of the way of the characters and let them do the storytelling.

Andy Greenwald

I think that overall this is one of the most significant shows of our professional covering TV existence. I think that at its peak, it was the most electric experience you could hope for. It was fresh, it was bold, it was thrilling, it was so ambitious. And also I think in terms of just the uniqueness, I was dinging it for this last week. But I do think that the spirit of the show, I mean, shows always take on the characteristics and the character of the people in charge of the shows. That is something that you can honestly say after working behind the scenes of some things for good or for ill. And the spirit of the show being one of found family and inclusiveness, being celebrated by Chris and his colleagues, including his real life partner, Gillian Jacobs, who's on the show, and good friends and people who've become close friends, is a beautiful thing, especially in this fallen, soon to be AI apocalypse that we all live in. But I do think that in many ways the legacy of the show is the other side of the praise that we'd given it for a long time, which is when it premiered. And we were like, wow, this came out of nowhere, has been in our life consistent, will be consistent in our life every year, hit its deadlines, show up, make stars out of actors, not the other way around, and kind of go on too long and frustrate. That's a legacy. That's a classic television legacy that one can be proud of, honestly, and one that we don't get enough of. We don't get a lot of these days. When things arrive now, everything is so bespoke and crafted and labored over and then years in between that we rarely just have this specific experience where you get something. It is wonderful. And then there's some bumps on the way, but it stays true to itself.

Chris Ryan

It's pretty rare. I mean, like we it was more common probably when we started doing this podcast, you know, where we were like, Damn, Homeland Season 5.

Andy Greenwald

That was the Showtime model.

Chris Ryan

Yeah.

Andy Greenwald

Wow.

Chris Ryan

But I this is one where I don't really have an intellectual argument against you. I'm just like, meant a lot to me, made me feel things.

Andy Greenwald

Yeah.

Chris Ryan

I don't think that the last couple of seasons were on the level of the first two seasons, but I thought in some there were large stretches of three where I thought the filmmaking was breathtaking. I thought the filmmaking generally across the board was top of its class.

Andy Greenwald

Yeah.

Chris Ryan

And that the conclusion of it really was like very cathartic for me in a way that I did not expect for it to happen.

Andy Greenwald

So it is 47 episodes they made, which is shocking since 2022.

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Chris Ryan

do you want to talk briefly about Star City before we get out of here.

Andy Greenwald

Yeah. If you have the time.

Chris Ryan

I just want to say one thing that's sort of an odd thing to lead with with this show, and I hate to say it.

Andy Greenwald

Okay.

Chris Ryan

Because I want to bring Hollywood back. Whoever the mayor is.

Andy Greenwald

Doesn't matter.

Chris Ryan

And whoever in this room supports whichever mayoral candidate. We don't know.

Andy Greenwald

We don't know. We don't know who still might be writing in. Some of the people who we thought were fallen off the ballot.

Chris Ryan

Where'd they shoot this?

Andy Greenwald

Vilnius, Lithuania.

Chris Ryan

Got some really good extras in Lithuania.

Andy Greenwald

Do you ever lose the narrative thread thinking about how every extra on screen, most of them don't understand what's being said in the scene because they don't speak English.

Chris Ryan

When Irina arena is following the American agent to the buses.

Andy Greenwald

Yeah. A lot of faces.

Chris Ryan

And they're walking all through what's supposed to be Moscow. A little bit confused about how far Star City is from Moscow because it seems like people are making multiple trips per day.

Andy Greenwald

It's kind of like where I live to the Sycamore Studios. You know, like, I complain about it, but I can get there.

Chris Ryan

Yeah, but you don't have to, like, get cleared at security in multiple places.

Andy Greenwald

Honestly, LAFD is stopping me when she's

Chris Ryan

following the American agent through Moscow and then through the bus station and onto the bus and different buses.

Andy Greenwald

Yeah.

Chris Ryan

There's a vibrancy and a life to that that I was like, what did we forget how to make shit like this? Like, I understand that those people may have gotten paid, like, two rubles, and I don't want to.

Andy Greenwald

Yes. Not the currency of Lithuania, but I think they take your point for now.

Chris Ryan

Not funny. Not funny. I just think that that's the kind of thing where I would be like, that's a pretty normal people shadowing one another in spy stories. Like, we see that all the time popped off the screen, as did, Obviously, the last 15 minutes, which were extraordinary.

Andy Greenwald

To your point, Spoilers for episode five, six. Five six six. Yeah, to your point. What we appreciate in filmmaking, wherever it is shot, is anything that takes advantage of, maximizes, celebrates where it's being shot. Location shooting is a crucial part of compelling filmmaking. That's like 101. Like, it's a super basic comment, but we don't have as much of it as we would like because it is incredibly expensive. You know, when you are making a TV production, one of the first things they say are, what are your standing sets? What can we reuse? What can we amortize from season to season should the show get renewed. And then maybe if you've made sure you're going to use these sets for your five or six days, maybe you get two days on location. And so you're limited in the beginning. And then you're even more limited if budgetarily you are in an more expensive place where you have, you know, the ruble doesn't go as far as it does.

Chris Ryan

There are unions, labor, which. Which are good. Unions, traditionally. Very big in that part of the world, though.

Andy Greenwald

Very good point. Should we delve into that? How many cans of tuna did you pack for that conversation? I don't think it is a blow against Minister Jon Voight's campaign to bring filming back to Los Angeles to say that it looks really good. Yeah.

Chris Ryan

I would rather this not be shot in North Hollywood. It looks really good where it is.

Andy Greenwald

So that is incredible. And I think that the texture adds so much in every scene, and not just on location, but the production design. Because there are moments even I am not. I am loving this show. But, like, there sometimes when, like, Raskova and chief designer are having the same argument, I'm like, oh, that's a different color taupe in the background. It's electrifying. And if I pause and rewatch it and they're just saying the same things, maybe it wouldn't be as rich of an experience.

Chris Ryan

The other thing that I hit my head against on this episode, that I think this is worth a longer conversation and maybe with the creators.

Andy Greenwald

Yes.

Chris Ryan

When Anna Maxwell Martin in this episode does her thing, this is what I.

Andy Greenwald

Yeah, I think we want to say the same thing.

Chris Ryan

At one point she goes, sorted out.

Andy Greenwald

Very good.

Chris Ryan

And I'm like, that's a British lady.

Andy Greenwald

Did you just figure that out?

Chris Ryan

No, but it felt culturally right. British.

Andy Greenwald

Right.

Chris Ryan

And. And I. I have. I wonder whether or not there are. There are any. There are people out there who feel like there's something lacking from, like, a quintessentially Russian soul here. Like, there is something. Well, almost like we are writing in the idiom or in the voice of, like, a certain kind of British.

Andy Greenwald

First of all, I think you're getting confused because that is also what I shouted at the sports bar on Sunday on Saturday, when England couldn't put it in the back of the net against Panama in the first half.

Chris Ryan

That's right.

Andy Greenwald

So maybe that's a low block that's partly confusing. I think that I look forward to, if we do get the chance to talk to those guys who made the show, there is both an appreciation for the detail of the Soviet bloc, but also there is a very convenient monster. I mean, chief designer calls her a monster in the sense that, like, I am no scholar of the Soviet space program, but the degree to which this one woman is empowered to end the lives and the billion ruble investment in a mission to Venus because of what it may mean for the security apparatus in her career is wild. It's excellent for the story because every episode pushes everything into the center of the table in a way that I admire.

Chris Ryan

Every decision that gets made by a character on this show immediately winds up affecting the next decision somebody makes.

Andy Greenwald

Immediately.

Chris Ryan

No Chief Designer being like, this is a secret mission, so it's not gonna be on TV and nobody's gonna know we did it. And her being like, hence why I can fucking kill these people. And we can just be like, they died in a training accident in Siberia. Like, there is consequences to every action. And that's why it's such compelling television. And I don't mind that it's an hour and five minutes. Like, I'm like, oh, my God. And how, like, he told Anastasia, she knows. Like, it's like everything kind of like, is building towards this tension that I think is masterfully woven together. I don't remember For All Mankind feeling like this, but maybe I'm wrong.

Andy Greenwald

And I do wonder where the specter of the for all mankind storytelling will kick in. One of the things that might be giving us all this pleasure in terms of, like, wow, I can't believe how fast they're moving, how they're running right at every problem, might be because Star City Season 2, which I think is not an impossibility, will pick up in the late 70s, possibly, like, this might be our. It may do time jumps in the same way, which we may have mixed feelings about because they have found so much fertile soil here. Or is the fact that we're responding to it to this degree because they are not letting the grass grow beneath their feet, as they say. Sure, possibly in Russia, I really couldn't tell you, but I do. The end of this episode is nuts. I mean, it is. I don't know if anyone listening this deep into the podcast, even into this deep into this segment, are still on the fence about Star City. But if I were to tell you that the sixth episode of the first season of a show ends with a KGB security official demanding the pressure be cut on a manned space mission to Venus that is so metal, honestly, didn't

Chris Ryan

even know you could do that. From the ground.

Andy Greenwald

Here's my real question. Is there really no tape delay?

Chris Ryan

I don't know.

Andy Greenwald

Do you know what I mean?

Chris Ryan

Like, there's some strong radios.

Andy Greenwald

I want to be clear about something. And I'm sorry to make this personal for a moment, but, you know, thanks to our good friend and colleague Sarah here, we were able to live stream on a private YouTube link my daughter's bat Mitzvah to my parents back in Philadelphia. This is 2026. This is the YouTube Google Corporation. And that took. There was a two and a half minute delay.

Chris Ryan

Yeah.

Andy Greenwald

Because my daughter was swearing.

Chris Ryan

Maybe like. The idea is that the Kremlin is invested in the space program. I gotta wrap it up there so you don't.

Andy Greenwald

Okay. Because I do think it would be a much longer watch if they were like, open the hatch.

Chris Ryan

No.

Andy Greenwald

And then a day and a half

Chris Ryan

they have like crystal clear, like, Nextel Chirp with these guys. Thanks to Kai and Kai. We'll be back next Monday, everybody. Enjoy your fourth. There will be an Andy Greenwald will publicize.

Andy Greenwald

You might as well. You've given me some songs. I'm adding my songs.

Chris Ryan

We make our annual playlist publicize things that take place on other people's Spotify profiles. That's that. Like, I. I have my own. No, I'm just kidding. Of course I'm gonna do that. We have a. Our annual barbecue playlist, which I only found out last year was to be played at a barbecue. So I just thought it was cool songs. But apparently it's not. You don't. Nobody wants to listen to post hardcore while grilling.

Andy Greenwald

You do. This can be. This is like a window into your experience.

Chris Ryan

But I sent you some. Some real cool dad rock.

Andy Greenwald

I will say there has never been Ice Age. Yeah. What? It will be so clear who contributed which songs. And I think people will have a good time with that.

Chris Ryan

We'll send that out on our various social feeds, including TheWatchPod, Instagram. Everybody have a great weekend.

Andy Greenwald

We did it, America. We did it.