Chris Ryan

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Andy Greenwald

Yep, headers.

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Andy Greenwald

Stand up and walk now.

Chris Ryan

Hello and welcome to the Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor@theringer.com and joining me in the studio, it's final service chef, it's Andy Greenwald.

Andy Greenwald

Oh, 86 my takes.

Chris Ryan

Andy, it's good to see you brother back here in the home of Burning Insulation in downtown Los Angeles. And I feel good, man. I feel super powered.

Andy Greenwald

If you hear a little frog in my throat, it's not hard living. It's pure ammonia fumes.

Chris Ryan

It is Thursday. What day is it? Thursday the 25th. So we're recording this at 10am the bear will release its final season at 6pm Pacific, 9pm Eastern. We're going to talk about some of the first few episodes, but more broadly about the Bear as a project.

Andy Greenwald

Probably spoil if we spoilers through three because that's the project like.

Chris Ryan

I think a lot of what is broadly available about what this season is about is is out there. Caterpillar eyebrows going up and down. We're also going to talk about the first episode of the second season of the Agency, but I think both of those conversations will be broad enough that people don't have to get too nervous about spoilers. Couple things for you at the top. We're going to talk also because the Bear and the Agency wind up being binges. Yeah, we're going to talk a little bit about the binge model. I also want to talk to you about the DSA rising in New York City Great. No, I'm just kidding. Oh, I was very excited going up in rural France. No, I wanted to just say that you can email us@thewatchpotify.com and you can follow us on Instagram @thewatchpod. And you can watch us on YouTube Ringer TV along with the Prestige TV podcast. And you can listen to us and watch us on Spotify or wherever you get podcasts. How you doing?

Podcast Producer/Announcer

Great.

Andy Greenwald

Couldn't be better. How, how has the tenor been of our, our feedback from the fans on the more bespoke platforms like email? Like, are people, people digging it?

Chris Ryan

Because, yeah, I think a lot of people are just like, here are my 2 cents. I would say that's generally, generally where we're at is like people being like, you either you forgot to say this or I like that conversation. I'd like to add this as my $0.02.

Andy Greenwald

So we are really running with my father at a film festival strategy.

Chris Ryan

More of a comment than a question.

Andy Greenwald

I respect that. I was only saying it because my favorite feedback that I got from the more traditional, you know, I'm more rough and tumble, like in the Coliseum. You know what I mean? And my favorite thing that was recently posted on our on Facebook, on our Facebook was, wow, does Andy not know Toy Story 4 was released in 2019? And I'd like to turn to the camera and say I absolutely fucking didn't.

Chris Ryan

Sorry, what did you say it was?

Andy Greenwald

I said, I said that I lumped that movie clearly unfairly in with Lightyear and Covid releases.

Chris Ryan

Yeah, yeah, I noticed that when you said it. And I was protect you by maybe asking for an edit, but I was like, let him learn from his mistakes.

Andy Greenwald

No, I appreciate that. Yeah, leave me out there for the second half. Even though I gave up a critical

Chris Ryan

era, even though there may be a

Andy Greenwald

concussion, even though Brazil scored three goals, I have to learn from this goalkeeper.

Chris Ryan

Oh, man, the World cup rolls on. What else rolls on? You know, the superhero comic book movie era. Rol it. I, I, I highly recommend people read Sean's newsletter today about Supergirl and the state of superhero movies and the era that we have been living through. It's a really great piece. I have not seen Supergirl yet. I, I have been taken aback almost with the, the sort of not negativity because it's part of the job and, and Lord knows I'm sitting across the table from one of the greats when it comes to serving it up. But it's like, I think people are ready to be done with this and they're certainly ready to. There's no more. No more passes. We're all out of passes.

Andy Greenwald

Well, you sent me Owen, the veteran critic Owen Gleiberman's review for Variety.

Chris Ryan

They've always said Gleiberman. Interesting.

Andy Greenwald

Well, much like my Toy Story 4 dart throw to Sing, I just.

Chris Ryan

Glieberman. Gliberman.

Andy Greenwald

You know, I hesitated. I hesitated.

Chris Ryan

I sent you Owen Gliberman or Owen Gleiberman's Variety review, which is an old school fucking back of the head pan. It's a real like, let's take Tommy out to get made.

Andy Greenwald

No, Millie Alcock walked into a room and there was nothing but Mylar on the floor. So.

Chris Ryan

Yeah, and I. And I said it to you and I was just like, man, the knives are out for this one.

Andy Greenwald

No, you actually said, because you are a very good texter. You said Mortal Kombat, Voice Fatality. It was a great text. Great text.

Chris Ryan

Thank you. And you were like, I feel sad about this.

Andy Greenwald

I do. I don't know why. I have no skin in this game. I have no shares of Warner brothers, Discovery, Paramount plus NORAD, Northrup, Grumman Corporation, but. And I'm not even a D.C. guy, you know, as you know. Yeah, Shout Out Joe House. But I feel like there is still something about Big Jim Gunn's approach to the D.C. universe that I, as a comic book fan, wanted to work. Now, I'm not saying it's all done. Like, if this movie is a miss and tanks, they are pretty pot committed to this project. I thought it was very interesting that another story that was in the trades this week as the review embargo is breaking of Supergirl was that David Ellison went down to Atlanta to the set of man of Tomorrow to sort of, you know, have a little chat with Peter Safran and James Gunn. And so at least optics suggest that

Chris Ryan

he's still about maybe Superman flying up to the reflecting pool and taking a big drink of the.

Sponsor/Ad Voice

Of the water.

Chris Ryan

Like, that's good water. There is no algae or bleach in it.

Andy Greenwald

Superman saved this pool. Superman, no, Lois Lane being the next 250th, the next guest on Usher Vance's Storytelling Hour. I too will pat your knee. It's great.

Chris Ryan

Does she have a pod?

Andy Greenwald

I don't know what that was.

Chris Ryan

Okay. Katie Miller. Are you thinking of Stephen Miller's wife?

Andy Greenwald

No. Did you see the clip? This is how online are you or are you not? I feel like Kai's laughing.

Chris Ryan

You don't want to know where I'm online.

Andy Greenwald

Do you know, like, what is Adam Friedland sent you. Is there a whole other Internet?

Chris Ryan

You know, what happened the other day is almost instantaneous to its publication. I was notified by a friend who will. I'll leave him anonymous for a moment at least, who is just like, are you aware. And it was Taylor Sheridan on Joe Rogan for two hours. And within the first 10 minutes of this podcast appearance, Taylor Sheridan talks about a deaf, possibly autistic horse that he has that sees ghosts, blames the Qataris for indoctrinating young children with trans ideas, and also, like, takes a giant drive by on Trump and the rule of, like, how he's not respecting the rule of law.

Andy Greenwald

This is awesome because one thing, you are closer to the Sheridan verse than I am. But one thing that is often said to me from people who are remotely in the orbit is his politics would surprise you. That's actually true. People have said that to me. It's not as cut and dry as you think.

Chris Ryan

Exactly. I think he believes in.

Andy Greenwald

I think he believes in personal liberties.

Chris Ryan

I think he does. I think he does.

Andy Greenwald

And who among us. Yeah.

Chris Ryan

Anyway, I didn't mean to interrupt you.

Andy Greenwald

This was much more exciting.

Chris Ryan

Like, you're going to be a tearful.

Andy Greenwald

Anyway, also big picture. Longtime listeners will notice that I was about to get like, real deep in the weeds of the possibilities of like, you know, multi panel comic book storytelling. And you were like, a man was on the Joe Rogan show talking about

Chris Ryan

horses and his horse sees ghosts.

Andy Greenwald

Yeah, no, it's just that I still. Superman was a flawed movie, as you know. I mean, Guardians of the Galaxy movies, while entertaining, were probably also flawed in similar ways. But I like his approach to the adaptation of comic books to another medium where he does run towards the things that make comic books specific and unique and often a little bit weird. Like, there's also a flying dog. Like, also they can be brightly lit, brightly colored. Silly things can happen with a. You know, it can be broadly colored in terms of the color palette as well as the pathos. And I like that. And I also just felt that for. For what it's worth in this fallen world that is, you know, now that Krypton's gone, that he was. It really did seem like he was building a cinematic universe. I don't want to say in an autourish fashion, but in a very, very idiosyncratic fashion, that these are the projects that he wanted to use to introduce something as opposed to just bringing out the big guns and sitting back and watching the box office rise.

Chris Ryan

I think it's worth Noting that he was brought on with Peter Safran at a moment when the DCU was still in mid flight. You know. So for instance, Supergirl was coming out of the Andy Machete Flash movie, I believe. And it was. Sasha Calle was playing Supergirl and it seemed like there was going to be a Supergirl movie.

Andy Greenwald

Yeah.

Chris Ryan

And I believe that might be Anna

Andy Greenwald

Nagira's script, the original script.

Chris Ryan

I'm not sure she. I believe she retains soul.

Andy Greenwald

She retains full screenwriting credit and even got a specific shout out in that OG OMG's review.

Chris Ryan

Yeah.

Andy Greenwald

Everything I've read about this movie suggests that this is not one script.

Chris Ryan

Yes, I would, I would. I probably agree with that. The funny thing about this is, is like when Gunn took over his. His big, big idea was we're never going to make one of these unless the script is absolutely rock solid.

Andy Greenwald

Yes.

Chris Ryan

And I just wish like Jiminy Glick was there to be like, really, Jim? Because it's fucking hard, man. They make these, they make these fucking dates. They're like, you got to come out this day. It's not shot yet, it's not written yet. It's like, but we need a DC movie on July or June, June 28th. And it's like, all right, lots of things can go between now and then,

Andy Greenwald

but also they're daisy chaining them in the sense that like they didn't. They. You could say that it's a vote of confidence or you could say it's the opposite by introducing Millie Alcock's Supergirl and her connection to the fucking superdog at the end of Superman and then immediately either boosting or just signaling that Superman is going to be in this movie. Also that these are all one thing again. And I do think that Gunn's statement that we're not going to do this without a solid script is just absolutely sensible. You know, that's our friend Damon Lindelof. That was his plan to with Star wars. Very, very specifically. We're not doing this to meet a fan expectation or a release date. We're not doing this to satisfy a fictional history or meet a trilogy. The stated goal of that sadly now gone project was we are going to make one singular quality film and anything else good could spring from that.

Chris Ryan

Now there's maybe five movies in the history of superhero movies that fit that criteria.

Andy Greenwald

I totally agree. How can you make a single solitary scripted statement of a film that also requires the viewing of many, many other films? I mean, that is also why comic books tend to be ongoing issue Six. Issue six could be really good, but you kind of have to read 5 and 7.

Chris Ryan

Yeah, but that takes like two minutes to do that to read those.

Andy Greenwald

Yeah, you swipe it on the app real fast.

Chris Ryan

I mean, if you're just like, I'm going through it.

Andy Greenwald

The reason I'm being defensive about Ana de Garra's script is I don't know if, you know, she is a beef with French school graduate.

Chris Ryan

I don't think that this is representative

Andy Greenwald

of her talent nor the Quaker light within her, which we see and we share. But I guess I just felt kind of bummed for two reasons. One being, overall, I would like this to be fun. I would like it to have a personality. Because I think these types of movies make a case for their continued existence if they have some creative spark or verve and aren't just boilerplate onto the next one. And two, I do hate when a vitriolic online discourse is met by a. On the other side of the battlefield met by a good faith critical panning.

Chris Ryan

Yes.

Andy Greenwald

And then. And then you're not even, you know, the people who hate Millie Alcock or hate a movie about a superpowered woman.

Chris Ryan

I just want to let you know, I don't hate this because I'm a misogynist.

Andy Greenwald

Exactly. You hate it because of the script written by a woman.

Chris Ryan

Yeah, I haven't seen it. It could be good.

Andy Greenwald

Keep say more about that.

Chris Ryan

Well, I just think there's plenty of opportunity for like, this could to be like. There is a little bit of like, I think a tide building that is led by everybody kind of having their head turned around by obsession in back rooms and the enthusiasm for some of the original movies that are coming and even stuff earlier in the year, like the drama where people are like, I want to go to the movies and see different stories that I've been seeing for most of my life or stories that look a little bit more like my story, or stories that are just about different corners of the universe, are different kinds of people. And I think probably unfairly, movies like Supergirl, which have been probably in some form of gestation for several years and had no idea that someone was going to make Obsession and have it turn into the Hoodie and the Blowfish album on us. Like, I think they're probably like, this has nothing to have nothing to do with one another, but you can't help but pull them together and be like, the page has turned, man, and you're yesterday's news.

Andy Greenwald

One thing I like about, unlike the DCU thus far, one thing I like about the Ringer Corporation is that we do provide content for different age groups and fan bases because I was alerted via Instagram that. That Danny Heifetz didn't know Gwen Stefani was in no doubt. And yet you just.

Chris Ryan

I don't know that he's representative of any generation. He's a very specific kind of person. But you.

Andy Greenwald

So are you. And you just specifically dropped a cracked rearview Hootie reference about a 2026 film. So, you know, we gotta be who we are.

Chris Ryan

It's my. The reason I actually mentioned that is like, there is a certain point where you're like, is this people seeing obsession for the third time? Like, I like who hasn't seen it that wanted to see it.

Andy Greenwald

Do you think that there is fatigue and then we can move on? Because, like, we haven't seen the movie. And, you know, I'm curious because I

Chris Ryan

think the next stopped us before brother.

Andy Greenwald

Get ready for the rest of the year of podcasting. Like, I think the next DCU movie is Clayface.

Chris Ryan

Yes. Which I'm very excited. Which is, you know, which is as of now.

Andy Greenwald

Yeah.

Chris Ryan

Before Dave flies over to Atlanta to take a look at the cut. As of now is a like a hard R horror movie.

Andy Greenwald

So I wonder if the mistake here. And again, it's premature to call it a mistake, but it seems to be a absolute heat check moment here for the. For the gunaissance. Was the mistake too much Kryptonian James Gunn content back to back? Because that's what he was passionate about. And I think someone is clearly pumping the brakes on let's just have two Batman at the same time. Which I think is smart for people who aren't following the story the degree that we are. The Robert Pattinson Batman movie, the sequel, directed and written and directed again by Matt Reeves, just went into production in London many years after the first. But during the interregnum between movies, there was talk from the Gunverse that there

Chris Ryan

was going to be like a fun

Andy Greenwald

and zany Batman, that this one is like an elseworlds different multiversal Batman that he can do what he wants with. But we're going to have a Batman that's going to hang out with Millie Alcock and David Corns with Superman. And that's going to maybe be based on Grant Morrison's recent run where Batman's son is Robin. And I think they're probably like, let's chill the fuck out. Which I think is probably good advice. But I wonder, broadly speaking, to your point about the desire for something organic, authentic, perhaps slightly democratic socialist. Do you think that the element of these movies that might not be hitting anymore isn't the, like the canonical fealty and the demand and the homework, but the shininess? Like, is there something like, do you think there would be an appetite for a little bit more rough and tumble diy, like the Safdie brothers Nike commercial aesthetic in a Supergirl movie? It doesn't have to be Supergirl. I'm just wondering if the shiny CGI thing is.

Chris Ryan

I don't know why it's tracking where it's tracking. From what I can understand by seeing the trailers, I'm like, I don't really know that there's a ton more in this movie that isn't in the trailer that sounds like this is a girl who's got some trauma, who's got a bad attitude and wears a blondie shirt and she has a standalone fight with a guy and saves her dog and then learns the power of family.

Podcast Producer/Announcer

Right.

Andy Greenwald

I mean, green light in the room, right?

Chris Ryan

But like, I got it, you know, and then once you sort of get to that point where you're not feeling. One of the things that's sort of been always like, I've been hitting my head against with a lot of these comic book movies other than Nolan's Dark Knight, James Mangold's like Logan, like a couple of others, is that they are pretty visually dull to me, you know, so part of the reason why people read comic books is because they're fucking cool to look at. And we've made dozens of movies that look like shit. And I think people might just be getting tired of that.

Andy Greenwald

That's. I think that's a, a more specifically correct way. What I was trying.

Chris Ryan

That's just my eye. Maybe there's a bunch of people who are like, I look at two dimensional video games all day and this is cool. Like, you know, I mean, I, I

Andy Greenwald

liked Gun Superman because it was brightly colored like that. Like, honestly, I was like, this is different.

Chris Ryan

I had to just get one quick fire reaction from you before we get into the larger conversation for today, which is that there was a truly, like, the egg just cracked. There is no, there's no like sourcing to this yet. It's in the lower rung of. Of the Internet movie world reporting. But that Zendaya is in talks to be the new Jason Bourne, whatever that looks like.

Andy Greenwald

Yes.

Chris Ryan

And you say what?

Andy Greenwald

I say this would herald an incredible new phase in my parenting relationship to my children. One that I think could probably break Things the right way, finally, for me,

Chris Ryan

you know, because they like Zendaya.

Andy Greenwald

Like is a very soft word.

Chris Ryan

But you didn't, you did not take your children to see the drama. And you said, and why is that?

Andy Greenwald

Do the Charlie Rose.

Chris Ryan

Do it.

Andy Greenwald

I did not. I did not. But nor have I shown them the Bourne quartet. You know what I mean? Sure. And by quartet, I mean there are only four Bourne movies that you and I canonically recognize because the titular Jason

Chris Ryan

Bourne movie where he plays a bare knuckled fighter in Eastern Europe.

Andy Greenwald

Never heard of it. Yeah, didn't happen.

Chris Ryan

I like Alicia Vikander in that movie, though.

Andy Greenwald

I like her in everything. But just, you know what? Just watch Irma Vep on HBO Max if you want your Vikander fix.

Chris Ryan

I served that up to you.

Andy Greenwald

You really did.

Chris Ryan

You are excited by this.

Andy Greenwald

I mean, there's nothing to be excited about. No, but there are. There are enough. Like actual. It's beyond rumblings. Like I. We've heard, we know people like, who are in the mix for a next Bourne movie. The conversation that I heard was primarily about, like, the last time around, getting Matt Damon back involved. That this would be Edward Berger directing it. Yeah, yeah. And Edward Berger was attached to direct it. And that there was, you know, that there was a script and that. My sense is that that script had a little bit of baton passing potential,

Chris Ryan

but those always work out.

Andy Greenwald

Look at Mission Impossible. What was the one with the first render one? Was that three or four?

Chris Ryan

The Impossible four was the one that

Andy Greenwald

was supposed to be the baton pass.

Chris Ryan

Khalifa.

Andy Greenwald

Yeah. Anyway, yeah, I would have to say

Chris Ryan

that watching Matt Damon on the Odyssey press tour, it's unlikely to me that he is going to get in Bourne shape anytime soon. And I mean that with all, you

Andy Greenwald

know, is he not still in a dissection like this?

Chris Ryan

Like, he is like, I'm so tired. He's like. And Pattons and Alan are like, yeah, mate, that was kind of brilliant. He's like, I had to walk up a mountain, nine takes with an IMAX camera on my back.

Andy Greenwald

Wow. Humbling.

Chris Ryan

Yeah.

Andy Greenwald

I know you've been doing weight training recently. Do you have any perspective on that?

Chris Ryan

You do. I mean, like, I'll be joining him soon, I'm sure.

Andy Greenwald

With an IMAX camera strapped to your back for upcoming podcast.

Chris Ryan

I'm very excited for this.

Andy Greenwald

It also is smart for Zendaya because one of the keys to her absolute fame and dominance is not just that she's one of the best actors of her generation, it's that she has very Cleverly chosen blockbusters, classy blockbusters to associate herself with. And that was.

Chris Ryan

She is actually having maybe the platonic ideal of a Hollywood, a 2020s Hollywood star's career where she is kind of going across the spectrum in terms of the size of the role she's taking. But she's never like off the poster, you know, like, she's always going to be there. She's working with really interesting filmmakers. And more importantly, rather than just being like, just sign me up for whatever you want to make. Like, it seems like the drama the Dune Odyssey, a Ronnie Spector movie with Barry Jenkins, was supposed to be her next thing that's shooting in the fall. And if she does this.

Andy Greenwald

And Spider man, which is going to be the biggest movie of the year.

Chris Ryan

Right, Right.

Andy Greenwald

Pretty good.

Chris Ryan

Pretty great.

Andy Greenwald

I know that you have some takes to get off about Taylor Swift's upcoming wedding, but we could save that for After Dark.

Chris Ryan

Sure. Okay. Because I. I know you do too, because this is the socialist and democratic social.

Andy Greenwald

This is the one space where I know my children will never hear what I say. On a podcast co hosted by Simmons is on. That is true that that broke the seal for them.

Chris Ryan

We have the bear and we have the agency. The bear has, as of recording, yet to be released. The agency is entire in its entirety. The second season is up. Let's talk a little bit about the binge model before we get into the specific shows. And now I can't help but hear Jiminy Click every time I speak. Let's talk a little bit about the binge model.

Andy Greenwald

There's nothing I love more than Jiminy Click. So it's fine. Do it.

Chris Ryan

Did you ever see the one with him and Larry David?

Andy Greenwald

Yes. The one with him and Bill Hader may be along with the Eastbound and Down outtakes, my most watched YouTube clip where haters is crying not a star's name. Is this as good as it gets?

Chris Ryan

I guess somewhere someone's got numbers that suggest that this is the best way to do things for any given, whether it's Netflix, you know, for fx, Hulu's purposes under the Disney umbrella. They have always released the bear as a binge.

Andy Greenwald

I believe they have. And initially we took that. Sorry to cut you off. We took that as a reflection of their we don't know what we have attitude towards the show for the first season.

Chris Ryan

Yes. I think it was kind of like, would you guys like to check this out? Well, go for it. I think that the show has evolved over the years, over the seasons, and this is the fifth and final season into one that writes and shoots to be watched in. In a one huge binge, one long sitting. So I would highly recommend people. And I've seen seven of the eight you've watched. Three of the seven that were made available. Seven episodes were made available for critics ahead of time. We have not seen the finale. I would encourage people, if they like the Bear, to watch as much of the Bear as they can in succession, because I think that's the desired effect comes from that experience. As far as the Agency goes, both because of the complexity of the plot, the sheer number of characters. I know that that show came out last year. Right.

Andy Greenwald

24. 24.

Chris Ryan

Again, kind of a House of the Dragon thing where you're like, ah, right. And this guy I would know from where you know, because, like, you just have to. You have to, like, really assemble all the. All the pieces on the chessboard when you're watching the Agency. And I remember now with the Bureau. The Bureau, the show that the Agency is based on, I did watch that in a binge. We did pretty much watch five seasons of TV over the course of, like, two or three weeks.

Andy Greenwald

Well, it was the pandemic, sure.

Chris Ryan

But you could keep all the characters in place, you could remember all the storylines. There were certain things that would emerge that you were like, I can't believe this. That might have a different feeling if you waited a year or so to watch it. So there are different. Different angles to this whole thing. But I guess I would start by saying let's take the Agency, because I think we should talk about the Agency first.

Andy Greenwald

Yeah.

Chris Ryan

But broadly, like, do you think that this model works for a show like that?

Andy Greenwald

I want to pick up quickly just when you're talking about how we watched it. Like, one of the great pleasures of the contemporary era of television is the opportunity to rediscover and to unearth and eventually, I think a lot of people do this. I don't but, like the rewatch.

Chris Ryan

And so we have too much new stuff to watch.

Andy Greenwald

Right. But, like, Laburo was so delicious because it was all there for us. We were late to discovering it. I believe all five seasons were completed by the time we started. And you know, when you have a show in your life with your partner, with your life partner sitting across from me, it can be so fun to just soak in it for weeks. And. But that said, you also alluded to this. It does change the relationship with the show. And there are incredible things about Labureau, the way it would subtly reset every year and be widen the aperture to be about also a different part of the world or a different hotspot or to see the larger game board. I feel like appreciating that would have been different in the moment. Not necessarily better, not necessarily worse. But the show contained enough richness to allow for both experiences. What I don't and also I don't begrudge people who are like, well, I've never seen Mad Men. Oh, here it is. Let me dive in. That's great. What I don't understand, and I hope someone might what's our email address? Thewatchpotify.com Someone please let us know about this because season one of the so

Chris Ryan

we did get some cool emails about why CEOs do get paid. What they get paid.

Andy Greenwald

Oh, how they work hard and deserve it. Kind of great. That's sorted then. By S O R D I D I do want to talk about why I think the binge model is horrific.

Chris Ryan

Okay.

Andy Greenwald

But specifically with the agency. What I don't understand is it is in many ways a feathered fish of development. In terms of Labura was a massive, massive hit within France and respected internationally. The rights to it were bandied about and claimed with a great fanfare by Showtime a few years ago. And the idea was that George Clooney and his producing partner Grant Heslove for Smokehouse, were going to develop this, and maybe Clooney was going to direct it, et cetera, et cetera. This was going to be Showtime's really, really big we're still in the game kind of thing. During the development process of the show, Clooney clearly fell off of it, as did the existence of the Showtime network. So it got folded into being like a premier offering of the new Paramount streaming service, the Butterworth Bros. Jez and

Chris Ryan

John Henry Butterworth write the show. Jez, an accomplished playwright and very prolific screenwriter.

Andy Greenwald

They write every episode and run it. I think Joe Wright directed some of the first season.

Chris Ryan

Yes. And Neil Berger, who is a longtime Hollywood director, directed this first episode. And I will say, without even getting into it, this first episode looks like it cost $200 billion.

Andy Greenwald

To be clear, Clooney and Heslov remain producers. Heslov directed on the first season. It's not like they went honestly. But the first season was released with

Chris Ryan

a little bit like, you look at a script and it's like, well, now I need an EP credit, because I looked at it.

Andy Greenwald

What town do you live in, guys? Windhorst fingers the opening credit of almost any show we cover. And you can Figure out some pretty interesting, let's call them passive income opportunities. Um, but the cast is so starry. Michael Fassbender, Jeffrey Wright, Jody Turner Smith, Katherine Waterston, Richard fucking Gere. The first season, which was really excellent, was a traditional release model. They released it in December of 2024 and it ran until the end of January 2025. It seemed to do well enough. Yes, they had greenlit a second season. It is so profoundly not a cheap show to make. So I have to say I was shocked to discover not only was the show back with a. Apparently, you know, not. Not a robust marketing and promotional effort, but it was back as a dump on Sunday, all 10 episodes. I still think talk me out of it or maybe just take the opposing viewpoint here. I take that as a insult to the people who made it and I take it as a sign of a lack of confidence in the show from the Paramount people. That is my takeaway. I do not have any facts to support that. That is how I perceive it. So am I old fashioned in taking something that way?

Chris Ryan

I can see both sides in it. Okay, so I can see he's running. First season comes out. Michael Fassbender, huge movie star or big movie star star, studded cast. You develop word of mouth by releasing week to week, maybe once the second season is done. They're like our fans are our fans and we want to service them and meet them where they are and give them 10 hours of stuff to watch as soon as the clock ticks.

Andy Greenwald

It's not a big tent strategy.

Chris Ryan

It's not a big tent strategy. But like, how many times have we gone through these TV shows and we were like, is Widow's Bay and the Pit are the two shows of the last three or four years that I can think of specifically that have had week to week acceleration?

Andy Greenwald

Well, I think you're right to bring that up.

Chris Ryan

Often than not it's people being like, man, I feel like I'm so behind on this.

Andy Greenwald

You know, I think you're right about that. I saw, and I'm sorry I can't credit this appropriately, but I did see an article basically saying it's. It's not accidental or it's not. It's not coincidental. I should say that the largest, like week to week growing shows, if you just look at the growth, not necessarily the overall audience over the last year or two years have been on Apple and the, the argument, and it included Cape Fear in that, which is also apparently growing week to week, even though it's, you know, priced At a different point, sure, clearly had different expectations than, than Widow's Bay did. But the argument was essentially that because Apple is a boutique service, it has very relatively humble, let's say, subscriber base, but unlimited coffers. They can afford. This strategy of letting people find their shows and letting word of mouth build Paramount. I don't have the numbers, but I. Paramount is in a lower tier than the dominant streaming services. It could just be that they don't have that patience or they don't have the business strategy to let things develop that way. I'm open to that possibility. As we were, as I was complaining about the other day. All of this is so frustratingly opaque. I find it, I find it incredibly annoying as a fan of building week to week, as a fan of how I enjoy watching this stuff, especially a show as dense as the Agency, I wish it was otherwise. And also I just find it indicative of larger cultural shifts that I'm powerless to stop, but I hate, which is just the overstuffing and overindulgence of everything.

Chris Ryan

Yeah, I think that the, the only counter I have to that is that I can see binging in the same way that people are like, I get my news from newsletters and I don't go to websites anymore. So basically this idea that you find your fan base and you service them to the max, rather than. We want you to subscribe to our network, our premium cable channel, our streamer, and we want to develop a relationship with you where we parcel out things over the course of a year and you have to wait till Sunday to watch this. And that works for us. And I think it works for TV shows in terms of especially new shows to build them up over the course of a season. But for the pure corporation customer relationship, they may just be like, this is what people want.

Andy Greenwald

Well, it's algorithmically stuffing them with what they think they. What they feel confident that they know they want. And you know, I want to talk specifically about the show, of course, but one thing that I've been noticing recently with just how my kids and their friends engage with things when we suddenly had unlimited options, like when suddenly there was Spotify or even, you know, before that, wink, wink, Napster. Right. Like it was mind blowing for us as people who used to have to search out things and we had a lot of appetite for what was next, what was behind the next door? Who influenced this? How can I find out more? Because knowledge was at a premium and access certainly was at a premium this generation, at least in my experience with My kids. And again, like their peers at the moment, the ceiling of that being currently 13, maybe that changes. There is no searching. There is no. Everything is fed to them.

Chris Ryan

The difference between I'm gonna go get that, like at a store and bring it to me in a box.

Andy Greenwald

Yeah. I mean, you know what I mean. If my daughter opens YouTube and YouTube already knows everything she probably wants to see, then her worldview is limited by that. And maybe it's too grandiose to say it, but I do feel like the binge model is deeply connected to that or has become entwined with that in terms of expectation. Like, oh, well, you know, I opened up the service and it knows. I watched the first season and here's the new season. So I will just stay in my wall EPOD forever.

Chris Ryan

Yeah. I mean, we can talk more specifically about this show.

Andy Greenwald

Let's talk about the Agency.

Chris Ryan

The bear itself is, I think, made this season. Specifically, I think is made as a four hour episode of television. I think there are some episodic breaks, there are commercial breaks that are in the actual episodes.

Podcast Producer/Announcer

But.

Chris Ryan

But I think that if you think about the seven episodes that I've seen, it feels like a complete statement. The Agency is as traditional as prestige TV gets in its construction. These are 47 minute episodes. We'll talk about the first one here because I had a revelation while watching this.

Andy Greenwald

Whoa.

Chris Ryan

I admired and liked watching the first season.

Andy Greenwald

Okay.

Chris Ryan

There is something, and I cannot quite put the metaphor together, but it's almost like watching like a thing that I love in another room or something. Like there is. There is an element of. For as excited as I was to see the Bureau remade or interested in it, I was like. But it just feels like I've seen that scene in a different language with different characters. This is a really strange experience this episode. And we can get into a little bit of the discussion about what it is initially starts. And it's tracking along relatively close to the Way Season 2 of the Bureau starts.

Andy Greenwald

Yep.

Chris Ryan

Correct me if I am wrong, but midway through this first episode we are introduced to a new character.

Andy Greenwald

Yeah.

Chris Ryan

In the universe of this show.

Andy Greenwald

Right.

Chris Ryan

And listener. The heart rate went up. So basically like we're. We're. We're picking up. Right. Two months after the first season left off story time wise, Samia's kidnapped and is. Is being held hostage in Africa. Martian is a Des now working a desk job at the CIA's London office

Andy Greenwald

and is fully a double agent.

Chris Ryan

Is now working for the British, which kind of inverts what the Malitrue character. And the Bureau is working for the Americans.

Andy Greenwald

The French agent working for the Americans for similar reasons. To save his love.

Chris Ryan

And where the second season or the, you know, where the Bureau is a little bit more concerned with Syria and goings on in the Middle east and Jihadis. This is now getting more and more into Russian paramilitary groups and the Ukraine war. And we are introduced to a character midway through the first episode who's known only as Viking, who is a former US Marine, although one who's got a bit of a fabulous side to him. A former US Marine who is now working as a henchman for this Russian paramilitary. It's basically Wagner group, but they're calling it Valhalla in. In the show. And I was like, oh, this is what I wanted. I wanted a curveball.

Andy Greenwald

Well, now, to be clear, the leburo has a similar. It is a French national.

Chris Ryan

Yes.

Andy Greenwald

So the, the, the thematically, the person who we're chasing is one of ours is the same.

Podcast Producer/Announcer

Yes.

Andy Greenwald

I did find. And maybe this is also what you're responding to. I leaned in when it was a ex US Marine. At the moment when the show, I think, is beginning to engage less with the, like, perfectly curated museum piece of Le Bureau and actually digging into what it would mean to be about the CIA right now.

Chris Ryan

Yeah.

Andy Greenwald

And there's a. To me, the most interesting and most declarative section of this episode, and clearly we're talking about only the first of season two, is the conversation between Jeffrey Wright's character and Richard Gere's character where they're like, man, we used to kick ass and people used to be afraid of us. What the fuck happened? Yeah, I, I thought the, the, the collision between that plot beat taken from the first. Taken from the French show, but added to the, the very nowness of it did elevate everything.

Chris Ryan

Yeah. And I think rooting it in, there's. There's a bit of a. A strange experience watching the Agency, where the Central Intelligence Agency's office in London is populated by United Kingdom actors playing Americans.

Andy Greenwald

Yeah.

Chris Ryan

With the exception of, you know, there's. There's several Americans in it, but Dominic.

Andy Greenwald

Dominic West.

Chris Ryan

Dominic west and Michael Fassbender are. And the guy who plays Grandma. Right.

Andy Greenwald

Yeah. And the kid downstairs in Tech who is just like an Absolutely. Like that is one of the most English faces you could ever, ever capture. Like, that guy would break so quickly under CIA questioning if you put a Greg Sausage roll in front of him.

Chris Ryan

That's right.

Andy Greenwald

Or mention having a few drinks at Spoons.

Chris Ryan

So there's like this odd feeling, but. But I. I did like the idea that this Viking character has emerged out of, like, fringe, like 4chan manosphere, and then through the lens or through the prism of, like, Aryan brotherhood, white power, white nationalism in America to somehow find. Find himself in Africa working as a merc for a Russian paramilitary group. It's just a really nice, like, curveball on making it more like, what would these characters from these countries be?

Andy Greenwald

Yeah, I think it's a really, really complicated production in ways that I think are almost difficult to parse because it is British screenwriters adapting and a very, very French show. But more than that, a very, very, like, 2015 show for a contemporary American television audience about contemporary American geopolitics. Some of the adaptations work incredibly well. Some are more stilted, some are still finding their way. I found myself in this episode more drawn to the most familiar plot from people who had watched the original series, which in this case is Dany in Tehran. Yeah, I think Saura Lightfoot Leon is awesome and exciting in the role. And the peril of that feels a lot more pronounced because she's the agent in the field. That was also beat for beat what labiro did. And with the setup of who's going to get turned, who's going to become a source, all of that and the way that the Martian character is going to play with it, I still find the show is almost like. And this may be why I'm also worried about its future. It is so aggressively complicated and chilly. I'm super into that. But it is dense. And I still think that.

Chris Ryan

I think this is the same conversation we had two years ago. I think we're both responding to Fassbender and they. They made a choice to centralize, to make him this. The. The choose him as the actor. I think that he and his. This period of his acting has settled in on, like. I have, like, a Michael Fassbender guy that I play who is like a

Andy Greenwald

cold, heartless sociopath who likes racing cars and.

Chris Ryan

Who likes racing cars. And then on the side in. In Frank or in, you know, in this or that, I might play somebody, like, kind of more funky and interesting.

Andy Greenwald

But it is funny that, like, when we noticed him, we. I mean, like, audiences suddenly were like, who the hell is that in Inglourious Basterds? Because he was everything you're saying.

Chris Ryan

But I remember the first time I really became engaged with him was hunger, the Steve McQueen movie about, you know, Ira Hunger Strikes. And I was like, this guy is on another level. It feels like he's the next Daniel Day Lewis, but he has kind of settled into the killer Prometheus kind of Assassin's Creed guy. And in this show so far, I think maybe lack some of the soul of the character from the original series. Now, that's okay. If they let the big dogs in the pen off the leash.

Andy Greenwald

Thank you.

Chris Ryan

And that's right. Gear Waterson.

Andy Greenwald

Yeah.

Chris Ryan

And if they let those people cook. And there is, like, little. Little spots of daylight that, like, you don't put. You don't. It's like you don't get Jeffrey Wright to have him throw one inning in the seventh. You gotta let this guy out. Go. And I think that's coming. And I think you can see that emerging because he is charged with the mole hunt.

Andy Greenwald

Yes.

Chris Ryan

I'm very excited to keep watching this.

Andy Greenwald

I mean, some of the best moments. It's so odd. Some of the best moments of the show are the little throwaways, like Katherine Waterson's birthday party.

Chris Ryan

Yes.

Andy Greenwald

You know, the things that the Butterworths are inventing for these people are riveting and exciting, and I hope they do that. I think the best comp. And this is kind of surprising to say would be Mad Men, because Mad Men built a cast of real characters. Broad, funny, surprising, warm. Around Jon Hamm's central performance, which was defined by. This is not a criticism of Jon Hamm in one of the iconic television roles of all time. But that role was defined by its tightness and its insularity and its reticence and everything else warmed it up or surprised it. I think that's the best case scenario for the show because Fassbenders Martian is essentially like a blunt object. And the one moment that I didn't like in an. In a episode that I was otherwise like, ooh, the clues in the crossword puzzle. Inject this into my veins. Was when he is so stressed out about the lack of rescue for Samia that he then F1s his Ford Focus to the top.

Chris Ryan

Nearly off a garage.

Andy Greenwald

To the top of a garage. And then screams in frustration. And I was. This seems like an actor note.

Chris Ryan

Yeah.

Andy Greenwald

Than it does a character note.

Chris Ryan

I just have to stress again that this show looks like it cost $100 million to make. On one episode.

Andy Greenwald

It looks so good.

Chris Ryan

They stage a giant shootout in Khartoum. I don't know where they actually shot it.

Andy Greenwald

But more than that doubles for cartoon these days.

Chris Ryan

It, I think, is shot kind of maybe anamorphic. Where. I mean, like, I thought that the birthday scene also was so full of life and so well done. And also was just so great to have Martian trying to pretend to be a human being while also watching all these people flirt and have champagne and like turn 40 and all this stuff. And he's like, you know, dying on the inside because he's a double agent who's desperately trying to save the love of his life's life. More of that, man. Keep putting Fassbender in amongst real people and keep putting him up against brilliant British character actors who will, like, undo him a little bit.

Andy Greenwald

We should have this show. We, as viewers of television, as two

Chris Ryan

white men in our 40s.

Andy Greenwald

Thank you.

Chris Ryan

Deserve.

Andy Greenwald

Could something finally be for us? Hello? No, but generally, like, there is so much fucking money in the international streaming television space and this libero still exists. I mean, that's the challenge, right? It's still competing with the original in terms of what you could watch on any given Tuesday. But a high minded, high quality, high cost, elegant international spy thriller should just be on the checklist of what is on these services. They are hard to do. There's too much talent here for it to go too sideways. And I hope that the rest of the season, which some people listening may have already watched, fulfills more of its promise, both in terms of an inheritor of the original, but also as its own thing. And then, like, let's keep going.

Chris Ryan

Yeah. There's this experience that I. I have not been able to articulate, and I think that it's kind of fun. We've been talking about television together for 12 years or whatever it is. 13 years.

Andy Greenwald

14.

Chris Ryan

14 years I didn't.

Andy Greenwald

That's true. One year I didn't really watch TV and talk about it much with you.

Chris Ryan

And then I don't really count the Andy Greenwald podcast.

Andy Greenwald

That's fair. And would you like a list of the guests who did count it. We'll run it on the side of the screen. Kai, I.

Chris Ryan

We've spent so much time trying to be like, this is why this show is good and this is why this show is bad. And sometimes you just turn on a TV show and you're just like, I'm not changing the channel, brother.

Andy Greenwald

Yeah, that's generally you with Paramount Plus. No, that is your default home screen.

Chris Ryan

There's plenty of shows. I. I am not watching Dutton Ranch. I am not watching plenty of things on Paramount Plus. I. I stopped watching Mob length. I was just like, I feel like I got it.

Andy Greenwald

Yeah, you feel like you got the land. You got the lay of the land.

Chris Ryan

But there is something about like I just think the agency is just really, really, really well made and I would probably be head over heels for it if it was the first time I was seeing this story.

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Podcast Producer/Announcer

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Chris Ryan

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Andy Greenwald

Let me just get my ical for a second, move some things around.

Chris Ryan

Look, there's a lot of TV right now. There's House of the Dragon, there's the Bear, there's the Agency, there's, there's, there's so much to love. And Is there?

Andy Greenwald

Yeah.

Chris Ryan

So I've watched the seven episodes. I'm not going to spoil anything. There are a lot of what you would hear from me that would be a spoiler. Is now widely available in the reviews that have been published today in the trades. By the time this goes up, I think the season will have gone up, but I don't have anything to say about the finale because I haven't seen it. I guess I should let you go first.

Andy Greenwald

The reviews have come out and the reviews seem to have devoured them, as the FX press room would like us to devour them. So reviewers are like, boy, the seventh episode's really great. And boy, the other episodes really build up to it. I really think it's important to have a conversation about. Sincerely, Charles Barkley voice About what's happened to the show over the last three years. And it was a massive bummer to watch the first three episodes of the season. I think that there are really strong arguments to be made about the joys of insulated, siloed, collaborative, community based filmmaking. Like when you work with your pals and you work on something that you're passionate about, great things can come from that. And the first few seasons are a testament to that. Certainly there are still moments when watching the Bear where you see flickers of that affection that the cast and crew have for each other. The deep, almost wordless understanding that the performers have or that Chris Storer, the creator and director, has with people that he's known in his real life and he's now put on the camera. That's all wonderful. The flip side of that is when you completely make something for yourselves and with yourselves and don't talk to anyone about can choke the life out of something and feel like the most insular drain circling exercise imaginable. And I found these three episodes to be a continuation, to be fair, of what's happened in the last few years, which has been an almost outright disdain of traditional television storytelling. Now I don't want to be here and be the William F. Buckley of streaming television standing athwart, you know, the fucking Disney plus logos yelling stop. But there is a reason why television, whether you deliver it as a binge or not, is often broken story wise a certain way. Why storylines are spaced out over time, why conversations are had in vibrant writers rooms about where do we go next? So this does not feel like more of more and more and more and more of the same thing. So the fact that the first three episodes of the season aren't just the same characters feeling glum about the potential professional opportunities ahead of them in the same spaces. Only now it's all over the course of one service. Only now it's all over the course of one dark rainstorm in the super, super claustrophobic Michael Mann fever dream stage set of the restaurant. I found it. I was just sort of choking watching it. Like I did not get pleasure out of it of seeing these people say the same things to each other in sort of stagey, non story advancing ways. I was really frustrated, really, really frustrated and, and, and not to make this too inside baseball, but like, and I would say this to Chris is a great guy and we love talking to him and hopefully we'll continue to talk to him in the future. This is in no way personal, but I do find it odd that the show two years ago stopped having any conversation at all with the outside world. They don't do any press, they don't talk about it. They didn't even set up what this season was. It's just like here's another bunch of hours and it feels so disconnected from the relationship that I had as a fan, not as a podcaster.

Chris Ryan

So, you know, I think that's a worthwhile conversation to have and maybe that's where we can leave this discussion. I was much more positive on what I've watched, but I was feeling like nervous at the Three episode Mark. I don't know if your attitude is going to be changed about it, but I think that this season of television would be greatly. Would greatly benefit from not even like a cover story on Jeremy Allen White where he walks us through everything, or a promo binge where they're playing with puppies, talking about their five favorite meals they've ever had. Like, there's lots of reasons why that stuff is actually pretty tired.

Andy Greenwald

Agree.

Chris Ryan

But I do think that it would have helped this season or helped you watch this season if they had come out and said, this is about a day in the restaurant.

Andy Greenwald

If they had come out and said, let me explain how our menu works.

Chris Ryan

No, but like, being serious. If it was like, hey, so this is about the pre, pre service portion of a day, a chaotic night at the restaurant, and the culmination of everything that we have been talking about on this show. And that we are shooting it essentially as a relay race. Like, that goes like increasingly up in terms of intensity to a kind of mirror of the early seasons of the, you know, the chaos of.

Andy Greenwald

Sure.

Chris Ryan

Of the handheld. Sort of like Carmi doing crazy things and yelling at people and then pivoting it to being like, well, what would happen if Sydney was running this restaurant? And what happens on the night where they're actually working collaboratively? I think that would be a good thing for people to know going into it. Maybe nobody cares and maybe is like the bears back and I'm going to watch it. Or watching the bears three years ago.

Andy Greenwald

Yeah. And this is the vibe that I, I know that I'm going to get from this restaurant. Even though now we're using scraps of offcuts, like, to. There's a moment when people start yelling again, as they always do, and it plays off of Sidney's face. This is, I believe, in episode three of the new season. And her face is then intercut with images of all of these people shouting at each other in previous seasons. Yes. And I'm like, we're really just recycling that as opposed to generating new content. Like, I think there's an argument to be made that when Carmi was locked in the walk in freezer two, three seasons ago, that he never came out. These are all dream sequences because every single person has been stuck and frozen since then.

Chris Ryan

Yeah.

Andy Greenwald

Now again, I would love to. Maybe we'll have the opportunity to have the conversation. Like, is this. Because this was always one story. And then FX and the cast and crew, everyone's having such a good time. They're like, let's make three more seasons out of this one story. That's the evidence in front of us, but that they're having the same circular conversations, that every character is basically locked in place, and that the only variation so far in this new season is an expansion, an IP expansion of Friend of the Ringer, Brian Koppelman's character in the form of his daughter. Like, that's the big addition so far.

Chris Ryan

To be fair, I don't think that's his daughter. I think that's like somebody who owes him a favor.

Andy Greenwald

Oh, another quant comes in, plays by Elsie Fisher. I'm like, this part of the show is not as compelling to me as I think the people making the show think it is. Similarly, Matty Matheson being intellectually and emotionally a child and beloved by everyone is diminishing returns to me, even though, again, I think the people making the show find this incredibly delightful. So anything to push the ball forward. Instead, we get a Hans Zimmer score on top of it, which is like, honestly felt like shaving incredibly expensive olive truffles over Kirkland Mac and cheese.

Chris Ryan

I liked the addition of an original score instead of constant needle drops. And I love the music of the Bear. And I have a. I have the playlist that is all the songs from the Bear. But I thought that doing an original score for the season and nailing down the camera and making everything like the sensation that you're supposed to get is that Sidney is giving people a sense of calm, right? And so the camera needs to calm down as well. And so that there are push ins and there are, like, quick cuts, but essentially, like, from what I could tell, like, there is very, very little of the usual, like, bare kind of chaotic handheld in somebody's face giving you a panic attack camera work. It's all like on an axis, you

Andy Greenwald

know, just like, I don't think, and I don't think the show agrees with me, and I think there's room to grow here. But just like I don't think that a tweezered antiseptic restaurant that serves a set tasting menu is necessarily better than a sandwich shop, I don't necessarily think three extra seasons of Lionel Boice proving he can be a morose, dramatic actor is better than the kind of sweet, slightly more humorous character that he played in the first two seasons. Now he's staring at a candle again, you know, and locked in a room with Will Poulter. Now, obviously that might change, but I don't know if that's. That's a different tone, but now, it's been the same tone, and I don't know if it's necessarily better. Similarly, I think Chris is a phenomenal director and an incredible accruer of talent, and he understands the actors that he knows and loves so well and has brought out shades of people that we had never seen before, even in the show, like what Oliver Platt's doing, what Evan Moss Bacharach is doing. That's still what Abby Elliot does. These are things that I didn't know these actors who I was familiar with could do, and I love seeing them do it. I also know he is absolutely sincere in his filmic knowledge and his love of Michael Mann and everything, but this vessel that he has been given by the. By the gods at Disney and FX isn't a Michael Mann movie, no matter how much music and neon light you put on it, you know? So my frustration is because I think more than anything, the organic joy of this show for absolutely three full seasons, even if the third season was a little bit shakier, was such a special, special thing. Now, special things don't go on forever in the television or the restaurant industry, but these last two seasons of just so aggressively being something else, I'm finding. Well, you can. I'm frustrated. I'm gonna watch more, of course.

Chris Ryan

Yeah.

Andy Greenwald

And this is where binge drops can burn you. Because by the time some people are listening to me say this, they're gonna

Chris Ryan

be like, how could you say that if you haven't seen Seven? You have no idea.

Andy Greenwald

Yeah, but I'm trying to engage with it as a honest steward of my relationship to what has come before.

Chris Ryan

There's a strange thing that's going on with this show. Obviously, we've talked a lot about the method of its release, but I think its deepest pleasure is still the pleasure of any TV show, which is the durational aspect of it and the relationship you build to the characters. And for as circuitous as this road has been to get there, I found myself deeply invested in Marcus, in Richie, in everybody's well being. I don't know how else to put it that way. You know what I mean? Like, I usually don't have, like a this person needs to be okay feeling when I'm watching a TV show and caring about characters in that way. But it does hit you that we've been talking about this show for a long time. We've watched a lot of hours of this show. I think that we have complicated relationships with the show because on one hand, it's like the best TV can do. And on the other hand, it feels like it didn't quite live up to the potential of the first two seasons. But I think that this fifth season proves its. It proves its necessity for existing.

Andy Greenwald

I love that. I can't wait to see it. I think. I just cannot believe that the Carmi character has just been bubble wrapped essentially since season three, locked in the same exact emotional stasis that he's been in. And then when you have him finally say what he needs to do at the end of season four, the creative decision then is to pick up the next day where he's still bubble wrapped, hasn't told anyone yet. He doesn't tell anyone else until an hour in. And then let's get people going to where they need to go. And maybe that begins in episode four. And I'll find out this weekend, apparently, because I'll be watching the rest of the series.

Chris Ryan

I mean, you just let me know where we're gonna be on Monday morning.

Andy Greenwald

You know, I know where we're gonna be here. Unless another factory catches fire.

Chris Ryan

It was lovely to talk to you.

Andy Greenwald

I can't wait to. I'm very engaged in continuing this conversation.

Chris Ryan

Okay. Do you feel like when we disagree that somebody has to win? Do you feel like you need me to come over to your side of the force? No, no.

Andy Greenwald

Do you think.

Chris Ryan

No, I mean, you know, I don't. But you're so articulate about your critical opinions.

Andy Greenwald

But that also helps me because I know you're wrong. And so I have empathy, you know, because sweet, simple Chris.

Chris Ryan

Yeah, it's just watching Rogan and Sheridan,

Andy Greenwald

he's just like, just dreaming of deaf horses, you know?

Chris Ryan

We're gonna get out of here. Thanks to Kai and Sarah for producing today. We'll be back on Monday. We'll probably be talking some combination of House the Dragon or the Bear or whatever the agency, like, whatever, whatever. Andy gets Andy fired.

Andy Greenwald

No, no, no.

Chris Ryan

Whatever. Get Andy. I want you. I want you to be all those things. Fire me up, Steve O to my Knoxville.

Andy Greenwald

You know, so you're just sitting on the sidelines being like, too old for that shit. Well, I'm getting just probed by a dragon. I mean, it's felt like that for the last few years.

Chris Ryan

Everybody have a good weekend. We'll see you soon.

Podcast Producer/Announcer

This episode is brought to you by Paramount. In the world of espionage, truth is a moving target. And every decision carries a dangerous consequence. In the HC season 2, Martian has a new mission as a double agent. Twice the lies, twice the risk. The lines between ally and enemy blur like never before, and survival depends on trusting no one. Starring Michael Fassbender, Jeffrey Wright, Jodie Turner Smith and my man Richard Gere. Don't miss The Agency Season 2 All episodes now streaming on Paramount.

Chris Ryan

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Podcast Producer/Announcer

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Chris Ryan

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