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Chris Ryan

I need support staff to clear the room.

Andy Greenwald

Stand up and walk now.

Chris Ryan

Hello and welcome to the Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor@theringer.com and joining me in the studio fresh off a nine hour Twitch stream with Jaylen Brown, it's Andy Greenwald.

Andy Greenwald

What do you mean? I just had a colonoscopy.

Chris Ryan

What's up, brother?

Andy Greenwald

Great to see you.

Chris Ryan

Good to see you too. It's the Watch. It's Monday. A lot to talk about today on the show. July 4th, Taylor Swift's wedding. England. Mexico. Where would LeBron James live in the Tri State area if he were to become a sixer? House of the Dragon. The agency. Star City.

Andy Greenwald

Good God.

Chris Ryan

But I only have an hour to talk to you, so. I'm just kidding.

Andy Greenwald

That's exciting.

Chris Ryan

It's great to see you. The watch@Spotify.com thewatchpod on Instagram, uh, ringer-tv on YouTube. You can watch us and listen to us on Spotify, which I hope you're doing, but you can also find us elsewhere. I wish they simulcast us on BBC World Service.

Andy Greenwald

I think that could be arranged. I think we have a fan base over there.

Chris Ryan

Um, how are you? How is your. How is your England Mexico experience?

Andy Greenwald

I mean, that was one of the greatest sports events of my life. Yeah. I mean this sincerely and I understand what it would do to cheapen the nature of the event, but I wish there was World cup every day for the rest of my time on this cursed earth.

Chris Ryan

Specifically, I want knockouts, But I want three of them a day that start at nine and end at like 8:30.

Andy Greenwald

Yes.

Chris Ryan

And I want both the Cinderella teams to win, but also for the best players to keep playing.

Andy Greenwald

Yes. And I want both teams to do their celebrations at the end because I love all of them.

Chris Ryan

I had a leader who could make that happen. Hmm. Only a guy would step into the void and say, it's me.

Andy Greenwald

This is actually about me.

Chris Ryan

I can fix it. Only he can fix FIFA.

Andy Greenwald

It's true.

Chris Ryan

Yeah, it's true.

Andy Greenwald

I mean, when you have. It's just a shame to see yet another institutionally clean organization lose its guardrails. You know what I mean? Like, just historically, FIFA has always been so delightful.

Chris Ryan

Seriously. I mean, it is truly, like. It's like the heart recognizing its counterpoint in another.

Andy Greenwald

It's beautiful. These two deserve each other.

Chris Ryan

I just want to say, we were recording this at 10am on Monday. So the USA plays Belgium in a couple of hours. Insanely bad sports karma. The worst Bruin masterclass is incoming.

Andy Greenwald

I think that's likely. Let's. Let's focus on it.

Chris Ryan

I think it's good. Like, look, every country would do it if they could. Yeah.

Andy Greenwald

Also, it is.

Chris Ryan

It is by far the most shithouse sport in the world. Like, people have won on handballs. There have been hunters that kidnapped people to win World Cups. I'm just saying.

Andy Greenwald

I just want to say, as a longtime football fanatic, at least as far back as June.

Chris Ryan

Yeah.

Andy Greenwald

That was a bullshit red card, which. Who's Baligan. Yeah. But I agree. I usually like to.

Chris Ryan

I agree with him on some points.

Andy Greenwald

I just think nobody's wrong 100% of the time.

Chris Ryan

It's true.

Andy Greenwald

Okay. I mean, show me who among us. This is a television pod that is increasingly just a friendship pod, which I think is good for us. But in terms of the television, the World cup is the best television of the year.

Chris Ryan

Yes.

Andy Greenwald

And I genuinely like most of the time. And I'll make this about me, because I rarely do that. I feel bad for me, like, when my children won't watch sports with me because I like watching sports. I feel bad for them that they are not watching this. I felt bad. If you're listening to this and last night you were like, oh, the Legally Blonde prequel is on Amazon. Let's fire that up. What are you doing? What are you doing with your life? That was so wild. My two favorite countries in the world to visit at each other's throats.

Chris Ryan

So it does come back.

Andy Greenwald

The Andy Bowl.

Doug

Yeah.

Andy Greenwald

Come on.

Chris Ryan

And ultimately. Ultimately, sure. On the record right now.

Andy Greenwald

Yeah.

Chris Ryan

Who are you cheering for?

Andy Greenwald

Who am I cheering for the most?

Chris Ryan

Who were you cheering for?

Andy Greenwald

That's England.

Chris Ryan

Yeah.

Andy Greenwald

I've been there more recently, and we

Chris Ryan

have sides of the argument

Andy Greenwald

trying to secure the LA vote. Incredible. Incredible. The other thing that I want to say about this match, though, it was incredible drama, incredible television, incredible sport. But it was also a match that began airing at 2:00am GMT.

Chris Ryan

Yes.

Andy Greenwald

And we were texting with people.

Chris Ryan

That's what they called the time zone in England.

Andy Greenwald

Oh, look at you. Man of the people. Greenwich Mean Time. Um, we were Texting with people who were awake for this match and I gotta say in England. In England, yes. And I got barely me. I gotta say if the situation was reversed and whether it was the USMNT playing in a, in the middle of the night for us or if it was the Eagles, because I tried this last like the whole super bowl season of the Eagles. They began that season playing a spirited contest in Brazil that I learned about via text messages from you and Zach when I woke up in England the next morning.

Chris Ryan

Yes.

Andy Greenwald

So like I'm just saying I don't have that gear and I don't know if it's a particularly like an age thing.

Chris Ryan

Do you think the reason the English were able to stay awake is in fact gear?

Andy Greenwald

Well said.

Chris Ryan

Have you thought about that?

Andy Greenwald

Well said. Do you think that all the lads down at the pub weren't just, they weren't on the Guinness all night? I'll just say this more than that.

Chris Ryan

I would not be shocked if the last season of industry, the final season of industry is about a coked out trader who arrives at work at 7am and accidentally caused a financial crisis straight

Andy Greenwald

from the pub, from the session. Yeah, okay. Yeah. But do you think you have it in you just purely on vibes, like just natural, the natural stimulant of enthusiasm?

Doug

Yeah.

Chris Ryan

Because honestly the thing that was almost more intoxicating than the match itself was the buildup. The buildup was so I, I, I. It is a real like I will never quit this app moment was storytelling chops of the world's collected meme makers as, as we and also I mean you when you watch Harry Kane s sing a narco corrido like you really are kind of like in the loving embrace 2. Two of the best sentient intelligence, two

Andy Greenwald

of the best meme creating cultures. I would say the Morrissey bowl as I heard this match referred to.

Chris Ryan

Yes.

Andy Greenwald

Any final thoughts? I believe Jordan Henderson played for Liverpool, your beloved Liverpool.

Chris Ryan

Yeah, that was our like basically the closest we think we had to representation on this team.

Andy Greenwald

So for people, representation matters, Chris. For people who aren't up on the World cup and have not hit. Skip, Skip, Skip. Jordan Henderson's performance last night was elite. He did not enter the match as a player. He was capped in the sense that he received a yellow card for talking

Chris Ryan

shit essentially brought to provide veteran leadership

Andy Greenwald

and vibes and what the payoff on that, the return on that ticket was he got a yellow card for talking shit from the bench and then in the celebration he slipped and broke his wrist.

Chris Ryan

He was on an advertising hoarding during Wonderwall. And when he was trying to get down, he fell and seriously broke his

Andy Greenwald

wrist, like, had to be airlifted to a hospital.

Chris Ryan

I needed oxygen. I mean, everybody needed oxygen. I needed oxygen.

Andy Greenwald

Yes.

Chris Ryan

But. Yes. And thus Liverpool's World cup ends.

Andy Greenwald

Yeah.

Chris Ryan

It's amazing what other pop culture stuff I will say. And I'm sure Sean and Amanda will hit this, because I'm stealing Sean's point. I. I was. I. I saw him over the weekend, and he made this point, which is essentially that you can tell that the World cup is. Is mega because, like, Minions was down bad.

Andy Greenwald

Oh, was it?

Chris Ryan

And. And Supergirl continued to be down. Like, I don't. I think this is actually, like.

Andy Greenwald

Yeah.

Chris Ryan

I. I personally forgot that I did House of Talk the Thrones when it came up on my feed. I was like, damn, I did that. That show is on tonight.

Andy Greenwald

In your defense, in order to combat altitude in the House of R studio, you were absolutely gagged on Beatroot in Viagra. Like the English national team.

Chris Ryan

Yeah.

Andy Greenwald

Performance matters and everything. Yeah. I mean, look, we're about to.

Chris Ryan

So I don't know, maybe people haven't seen what was an honestly, like, awesome episode of House of the Dragon that I am excited to talk to you about.

Andy Greenwald

I also did. I watched that episode. Any of the knockout round matches this weekend. So I think it's gonna be interesting. Do we have conf. I heard prior to the weekend that Illumination Animation Entertainment Corporation confirmed that the Minions at no point worked for Adolf Hitler. Do we have.

Chris Ryan

What?

Andy Greenwald

Yeah, they were asked about this.

Chris Ryan

Are the Minions a period piece?

Andy Greenwald

Yes. This is the thing. Okay. We'll get back, but I wanted to know if you think they've worked for Carmine Infantino. But. Yeah, so throughout. Carmine, isn't it Gianni Johnny. Yeah. Why did I call him Carmine?

Chris Ryan

Because you're racist against Italians. I don't know.

Andy Greenwald

Let me know next time they make the Mundial, okay. Oh. Carmine Infantino was the publisher of DC Comics. It's actually worse. I'm both racist and a big dork. This is my Super Bowl.

Chris Ryan

You gotta do the Bill Simmons. I'm half Italian, so it's okay.

Andy Greenwald

I promise you, I am not. But I did sleep at Holiday Inn Express last night. Oh, my God. There you go. That's why I thought that. Anyway, the Minions have. It's been established that these small little yellow friends have been in existence throughout history. And what they do is they find a menacing, evil power and bootlick and do whatever they can to serve whoever has been evil throughout history. So there's, like, funny little shorts where they're helping a mean caveman and then the caveman dies, and they're like, ooh. And they go help someone else.

Chris Ryan

So they're. They're eternal.

Andy Greenwald

Yes. And this movie that came out this weekend that I also completely forgot about, I believe is a period piece set in the silent film era.

Chris Ryan

Okay.

Andy Greenwald

Like, you know, it's. It's really weird if you.

Chris Ryan

I can't believe it only made, like, 35 million, frankly.

Andy Greenwald

I want to protect you from, like, if you peel back the onion here.

Chris Ryan

This is. This is the line that I draw.

Andy Greenwald

Okay.

Chris Ryan

And I shall not pass. I'm not going into the Minions verse.

Andy Greenwald

But so I see it.

Chris Ryan

I see, like, the Minions out on the highway.

Andy Greenwald

You see the big one coming up over Universal.

Chris Ryan

Like, I'm. I'm familiar with their vibe. I know that, like, somebody who did they. Somebody sang Bohemian Rhapsody in Minion. They're. They're saying, like, there's lots.

Andy Greenwald

Who. Who said that?

Chris Ryan

The Internet. It's like, there are jokes about Emily Blunt speaks in Minion in disclosure day and stuff like that.

Andy Greenwald

Did she.

Chris Ryan

Are you. Are you googling Carmine Infantino right now?

Andy Greenwald

No, I know everything about Carmine the late great.

Chris Ryan

But, yeah, like, I, I. My only point was just that, like, it was sort of amazing to see an event. An event become so massive.

Andy Greenwald

Yeah.

Chris Ryan

And I think between World cup and people simply using data centers to power their Taylor Swift wedding. Snooping.

Andy Greenwald

Yeah.

Chris Ryan

Like, everybody stayed home this weekend or, you know, went out to July 4th parties, but did not go to Minions and did not go to. Did not go see Obsession, probably because everybody on the planet already saw it.

Andy Greenwald

So this is a headline. Again, you missed this because you could just chalk it up to the world cup or your lovely holiday travel that we did together, but Minion. This is a headline from deadline. July 2nd. Dateline, July 2nd. Minions and monsters director makes it clear. Minions never Dateline.

Chris Ryan

Burbank.

Andy Greenwald

Minions no deadline. A bunker underneath Berlin. Minions never worked for Hitler.

Chris Ryan

Okay.

Andy Greenwald

Now, did they take a meeting?

Chris Ryan

Do you have the phone call?

Andy Greenwald

They were tech events.

Chris Ryan

You have the phone call?

Andy Greenwald

Who? I mean, it also then opens up the follow up. So were they with Mussolini?

Chris Ryan

Yeah, exactly. What were they doing in the 40s?

Andy Greenwald

Minions and monster co writer. Director. By the way, do you know the guy that created the Minions is named Pierre Coffin? See if you. How deep does this thing go?

Chris Ryan

Because he's buried under that money dude.

Andy Greenwald

For real, though. He. It was a wild fan theory. After 2015's, film Minions revealed that they served Napoleon in the 19th century, leading, quote, many to wonder where they were during World War II. Many, many people are wondering the other

Chris Ryan

side of the French Revolution.

Andy Greenwald

It. It's a little bit unclear, but it does say the first Minions movie had them, quote, hibernating in a cave from 1812 to 1968. Convenient.

Chris Ryan

Oh, actually, you know what? I don't think I actually know. I saw Napoleon, and I can't remember what. What did he do during the French Revolution?

Andy Greenwald

Wait, you're saying you saw Ridley Scott's Napoleon, but you don't remember the minion's role in the film?

Chris Ryan

No, I don't remember Napoleon's role in the revolution.

Andy Greenwald

I want to tell you for the record, that movie would have done double the bo if in the Ridley Scott director's cut. Hold on. Shut the whole podcast down.

Chris Ryan

I've seen the director's cut. For all I know, Minions are all over it.

Andy Greenwald

Are they in the director's cut of Kingdom of Heaven?

Chris Ryan

Yes.

Andy Greenwald

Who would they work for in the Weyland Yutani universe?

Chris Ryan

Paul Reiser.

Andy Greenwald

A billion years.

Chris Ryan

Paul Reiser is essentially a minion in Aliens.

Andy Greenwald

This is such a. Do you know how much money we're making for someone else right now? If you redid the entire Ridley Scott filmography, including fucking matchstick men with Minions in it. Okay, just.

Chris Ryan

All right, I'm. I'm just letting you cook.

Andy Greenwald

I can't. It's too. It's too rich a text. But it would be exciting.

Chris Ryan

I just wanted to give you some space here because you're cooking. Well, you're racist. You're doing. You're doing alternative history. Minions are showing up in. In Blade Runner.

Doug

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Chris Ryan

What do you think of Taylor Swift's wedding?

Andy Greenwald

Rutger Hauer, the rain falling on him, and then the Minions slowly ease him into the soil. It's beautiful. Okay. Sorry. What.

Chris Ryan

What did you think of Taylor Swift?

Andy Greenwald

Sweating. Wow, you are sweating. I. I'm worked up about this. I think that if. Also, it's the new lighting that you were not allowed to talk about. If we survive this period of history, the World Cup, I mean, I might not survive that. I do think that this abomination in Manhattan will be looked back as a nadir. I do like a real bread and circuses moment. I find the whole thing really awful. Really, really tacky. Really awful. I know that doesn't jive with the. With the. With the General.

Chris Ryan

You know, I was. I was where you were at at various points.

Andy Greenwald

I know. But then what you did was you focus grouped it. You went out into America.

Chris Ryan

You know what I did when is. When I saw the guest list, I was like, this is. This isn't grotesque. This is just weird. I mean, it is grotesque in a lot of ways. But like, I was like, this is

Andy Greenwald

just strange because when you saw George

Chris Ryan

Stephanopoulos Blandino at her wedding, you know, but even Travis Kelsey is Travis Kelsey Friends.

Andy Greenwald

No.

Chris Ryan

Fox refereeing expert.

Andy Greenwald

There's a version of this that is like, it's actually when you are this rich and this famous friendship is a meaningless umbrella term. And that's what you. I think the end result of that is like, we were so happy to be married by our Cristiano Ronaldo has

Chris Ryan

just got like a single tear going down his face while he listens to us. Before Portugal, Spain.

Andy Greenwald

I hope he listens to us. That's what you get when you have an invitation or whatever it was that said, like, oh, no, the postscript. It was like, we were married by our good friend Adam Sandler.

Chris Ryan

Yeah.

Andy Greenwald

I challenge you to define the word friend in that sentence. I imagine that you both enjoy the filmography of Adam Sandler. And I'm sure both of you at some point were introduced to Adam Sandler at a party and you were like, holy shit, you're Adam Sandler. And he was like, zooby Doo or whatever.

Chris Ryan

I'm trying to imagine what my Adam Sandler would be.

Andy Greenwald

Do it, do it.

Chris Ryan

You were married by my good friend Jon Bernthal.

Doug

This is.

Andy Greenwald

Right. And he's just like, okay, God damn,

Chris Ryan

I didn't know true love was here.

Andy Greenwald

Right. We all have our version of like Adam Sandler, like the. Oh, shit, wouldn't that be funny? Mine was the late great Carmine Infantino. He could have talked about when he brokered the deal to have Spider Man Superman cross over once in 1982. Do you know what I mean? I find that Madison Square Garden. All due respect to the mayor of New York, Jalen Brunson, but that's not a particularly intimate or romantic venue.

Chris Ryan

No. I mean, there is obvious technical reasons why they did it because they. Probably because they filmed it and they're going to sell it. Which is also strange.

Andy Greenwald

Also strange is a politic word.

Chris Ryan

Yeah. And I know that there was like, you know, everything about it was secure. And that was the one way that they wouldn't have helicopters taking pictures. And they had the security levels.

Andy Greenwald

Sure.

Chris Ryan

Outside. And that you could basically get a filming permit that would then shut down Midtown.

Andy Greenwald

Sure.

Chris Ryan

On July 3rd. Which I'm sure was annoying, but, you know, under Big Zo, everything just seems to just keep rolling.

Andy Greenwald

And that's.

Chris Ryan

It does work, you know, it's true. Yeah. I. I think that was my. I looked at the list of the people who had been confirmed to have attended and I was just like, this is just so random. Like there are just so many people where I'm like, this guy from ncis.

Andy Greenwald

It's a party for famous people. I'm. Congratulations. Have a nice weekend.

Chris Ryan

Okay. Let's talk about House of the Dragon. I guess.

Andy Greenwald

Okay.

Chris Ryan

On Talk the Thrones, which I adore doing with Mal and Joe. And they did a great job explaining some of the kind of in depth. More textual readings of this episode. I declared this the best episode of the series.

Andy Greenwald

Yeah.

Chris Ryan

Do you agree with me?

Andy Greenwald

I thought this is the ego.

Chris Ryan

Same praise, I guess, kind of not

Andy Greenwald

at all the ego of the very siloed. I was like, zag. This was a great episode of tv. Apparently not a zag. Apparently. I think conventional wisdom, I think for

Chris Ryan

maybe there are people who are like. That was. There might be people who are like. That was boring. And there might be people who were like, but what about X, Y and Z happening outside of the castle walls or whatever?

Andy Greenwald

Right.

Chris Ryan

I just thought this, this episode had what some of the other episodes lack, which is subjectivity.

Andy Greenwald

Yes. Well said.

Chris Ryan

And I find that ironic because even though I have not read Fire and Blood, I think that's the text this is based on. That is famously or not even. That is written from multiple perspectives, sometimes conflicting accounts. That is a quasi historical document about this time.

Andy Greenwald

Right.

Chris Ryan

And the show has not really leaned into that. It's never leaned into. This was kind of perceived by this person in this way. And this was really like the first, in my mind, the first time we ever got to watch the events of a episode take place solely from the perspective of a character who's going through something.

Andy Greenwald

An entire episode. For sure. Yeah. I would take it a step further. I remember from over a decade ago now when we were doing after the Thrones and with. With Jason and Mal and especially in their role as big fans of the. Obviously of the franchise, but particularly of the books, that one of the things that made the book so indelible and attracted such an enormous audience, even before HBO got interested, was the very, very specific way in which they were written, which was in quite long subjective POV chapters. So that during A Dance of Dragons or whichever book it was. Is that a book?

Chris Ryan

That's what we're doing now. I think House of the Dragon is the Dance of Dragons.

Andy Greenwald

We. Oh, yeah.

Chris Ryan

It was like a Song of ice and Fire.

Andy Greenwald

That's the series.

Chris Ryan

Okay.

Andy Greenwald

Doesn't matter. I'm already discrediting myself. My point is the books that I haven't read are broken up and there's like a lot of Catelyn Stark perspective.

Doug

Yeah.

Chris Ryan

There's a Tyrion chapter.

Andy Greenwald

There's a Tyrion chapter. And that brings you, you know, it brings you the subjectivity that I think is really, really appealing when you are reading a book, but also can be really, really precious when you're watching a TV show.

Chris Ryan

Yeah.

Andy Greenwald

So my guess is that this is a meaningful episode, not just for the House of the Dragon superfan, but for the Westeros literati as well. Because this is. I don't know if it's close, but at least is tacking towards what drew them in in the first place. And I found it really, really compelling. And I also found it really. Reassuring isn't the word, but like. And I think I actually. I'm gonna say something. I'd like to punt it to the end of our conversation just because it really speaks to the challenge of adaptation at all. From medium to. Across mediums. Watching this episode, which had, like, not just warmth and subjectivity and interesting and unique perspective, it also had flickers of wit. It had more thematic elements to it, political elements that I found really, really compelling.

Chris Ryan

It's what, like, the sound design was incredible with like the. The ticking and the rats scratching and all that.

Andy Greenwald

And I felt like what you could perceive in this hour of television was everyone in every department taking their shackles off and being like, no, no, we know how to do this in a more traditional or enveloping way, but we are making a show that has a God's eye, fixed perspective and we are doing other things. And to see them, yeah, the God's

Chris Ryan

eye has to be very far away because you got to shoot the dragons. And the dragon seems to be. I think Game of Thrones was like, the dragons are like the kind of the carrot at the end of the, you know, like, down the line for. And the stick was sort of the brutal truths about families and politics. This show front loaded dragons, obviously, and, like, made the bet that it could take advances in VFX and depict the dragon warfare in a way that hadn't. They hadn't even been able to do in Thrones.

Andy Greenwald

I don't.

Chris Ryan

I don't know if I agree that they've succeeded necessarily, but what really struck me about this, and I don't think I articulated this quite well enough on the episode that aired last night was I kept saying tempo. And it is a fast episode. They. People speak with a quicker tempo.

Andy Greenwald

Yeah.

Chris Ryan

But what I admired so much about what Claire Kilner, the director, and Sarah Hess, the writer did with this one is, in any other episode of House of the Dragon, a lot of these scenes would be conducted by two people standing in a static position in a room. And the blocking was pretty vanilla. And the, like, acting was kind of almost like coming back to the direction of Single Single master, like, over the shoulder, like, conversation stuff. And far be it for me to ask for, like, West Wing set in Westeros. But almost every scene in this episode was either a walk and talk or someone moving around a room in a way that felt unconventional for the show. Yeah. And even something like Alicent coming to visit Rhaenyra. And Rhaenyra's like, how did you make all these decisions when you were kind of operating as the real head of the head of the state? Um, I thought that Allison wandering around the room and being like, this is so weird being here with you. Like, we're teenage.

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We.

Chris Ryan

We were best friends. Now we're kind of enemies. But I'm also counseling you. Like, this is really strange. And Rhaenyra being kind of doubled over with menstrual pain and, like, you know, like, everything that's happening inside of her head and the paranoia that she's got, Even the staging of something like that, where it's just two people who remain relatively static, there were little. There were little kind of flourishes that really made those scenes come alive.

Andy Greenwald

Think about. I think that's very well said. And think about how. Think about the effect that the dragons had on people in Game of Thrones. Like, people on the show, like, because they hadn't seen them or they thought they were mythological or enough time had

Chris Ryan

passed, or they just feel like they're never gonna come back.

Andy Greenwald

And so the what the fuck wasn't overlooked before they started torching everybody. What was cool about this episode in the absence of dragons and just generally was that Rhaenyra physically was the what the fuck? Because she is someone who was an idea. She was a cause. She was a shadow, a danger, a threat.

Chris Ryan

She used to be a prophecy, and

Andy Greenwald

now she's just a lady walking around a house. And everyone's like, what do you. What? You know? And she's making decisions. And it was like a workplace comedy. The scene with Alicent where Alicent is like, well, you Killed my father.

Chris Ryan

Yeah.

Andy Greenwald

Was not. Not funny. Do you know what I mean? And I think that was. And it was self aware enough for that. I. The thing that I. It's something that I noted last week and then I was happy to see played out differently this week. Last week, because of the necessities of plot and moving things forward. The two most powerful people in the realm, Rhaenyra and Daemon, hop off their all powerful nuclear bombs and then just walk through the castle.

Chris Ryan

Yeah.

Andy Greenwald

And they are thus at risk. And then the stakes shift accordingly. The same thing was happening in this episode, but for much smaller stakes effects, which made it a little bit more, I don't want to say relevant. It just made it more palpable. It made it more engaging to me that her being there and making these decisions and all the decisions in front of her being bad was much more interesting in the sense of like she is supposed to be up on high and now here she is, brought low and heavy as the head, et cetera, et cetera.

Chris Ryan

And that there is this like sort of spectrum of ideology that runs through the sort of cohort of people that have brought her to power or helped her get to power. And you've got people like Messaria who are like, well, I kind of believed in you because I thought that you were going to be the person to change the way things ran for common people. And then Daemon's like, I believe in you because you're the person who's going to bring the Targaryen line back to its customary place as basically demigods and, and paying no mind to law or whatever, you know, and we should just go around burning up the rest of the world until we get to almost fantastical places, more fantastical than where we were now. And the way in which that information is conveyed was so much more witty, artful, but also like, forget the. The idea that these two people are like, there are men with wings, like in a, like a land beyond the sea kind of stuff. It was just very fascinating to see these two who are like, well, on one level you're the only one who understands me, but on another level, you're pulling me right into the direction that Targaryens of the past and Targaryens of the future get pulled into where they think they're gods and that, that way spells doom. So I just thought all of that stuff was so well dramatized. I want to talk.

Andy Greenwald

I want to talk about the place, the city on the edge of the world where men have wings. First of all, Book Me a ticket sounds awesome. And are they eligible to play for the usmnt?

Chris Ryan

They have wings. They're very good playing. We don't have a lot of wingers. We don't have a lot of wingers. Oh, that's good.

Andy Greenwald

Maybe we misheard. Maybe it's where men are natural wings. 3&D stretch wings. They could play for the Sixers, too. This was something that I said probably too many times when we covered Game of Thrones, but I just felt that it was always important to. Not just not to serve what I wanted to see in the show, but to balance the scales of what the stakes were and what people were fighting for or fighting against. And that was to let us know what else they could be doing, make us understand the choice to continue to march towards King's Landing when you could, in the case of the original Game of Thrones series, show Arya going east, show what life is like in these other places. Is it better? Is it worse? Why do they keep coming back? Give us a sense of Dorne as being like, it's pretty nice. Why don't you just stay here?

Chris Ryan

Yeah.

Andy Greenwald

So that when Daemon says it in. When Daemon talks. Just what you were saying. When he is grandiose in this episode, it is night and day from when he was grandiose in the previous episode. In the previous episode, he's reciting a prophecy that sounds as romantic as a to do list. In this episode, he's saying, here are all these things that are possible for us now. So what will we do? What? When you can do anything, what will you do? This. That absolute dogged march towards the Nightmare Throne is tough when you don't understand the psychology of why characters are doing it, other than the fact that they have always done that or they have been told they are meant to do.

Doug

Yeah.

Chris Ryan

And she's blinded by a sense of destiny that I think is undermining her ability to maintain alliances, which is really well depicted in the scene with Corlys, which they, like, finally brings to Steve Toussaint off the bench and let him, like, do a cool scene where he expresses an emotion that he didn't even express when, like, his wife gets killed. You know what I mean? Like, he gets to say everything that's been, like, happening inside of his. His person for, like, the last two or three years where he's just like, you've got to be kidding me. I am asking you for one thing.

Andy Greenwald

Yes.

Chris Ryan

I have essentially, like, backstopped you in this entire time against better judgment.

Andy Greenwald

Yes.

Chris Ryan

And I am saying like, you know, we both know how things happen in bedrooms here. Just call these guys Valorian. That's all I'm asking. And she doesn't, because she doesn't want to bring in questions about, like, oh, so now even bastards get special dispensation, even though that's exactly what her sons have gotten.

Andy Greenwald

Also, look how nice it is when plot lines intersect.

Doug

Yeah.

Andy Greenwald

Like, what he has been doing the last three episodes is the precursor to this conversation. So it carries episode to episode. And I do not mean this as faint praise. It's kind of an echo of what I said after the premiere, which is the people making the show are very good at their jobs. I think that the overall mission statement may be slightly off at this point, but the fact that they were able to execute a battle that big and then do the very basic stuff like overlap plot threads in ways that create satisfying, knotty circumstances, I don't want to discredit that. That is good work, and it pays off when you can just take a breath in an episode like this.

Chris Ryan

I would love nothing more. I have not seen the. The. The next episode. I would love nothing more than if the next episode continued with this pace of momentum and especially this sense of subjectivity. I don't know if this show has enough Runway to start hopping around and really diving into, you know, the interior life of Ormond Hightower. I know he is in the scenes from next week rather heavily, and he certainly pulled a fast one on Renera this week.

Andy Greenwald

Yeah, want to talk about that?

Chris Ryan

But you don't hire James Norton just to do like three scenes where he smells perfume and then walks away. So I'm. I'm excited for the emergence of that conflict to. To come to the fore maybe next week. But I have. I've really come back around on this, I think. You know, I wouldn't necessarily say it gives me anything close to the feeling I got watching Night of the Seven Kingdoms or especially peak Game of Thrones, but it's a. It's becoming more of a pleasure to watch, I think. What, what, what hopes do you have for it going forward?

Andy Greenwald

I mean, I think it is an. It is an old school TV move, back when TV shows had to make 22 episodes a year.

Chris Ryan

Or let's do one about this and let's do one from her perspective.

Andy Greenwald

Yeah, let's see what else we can do. Yeah, let's see. Let's take this thing out on back roads or see it on the autobahn or see if it floats. You know, like, let's Just see what it is that we have here. It is a luxury in this age of condensed seasons and years between them and expensive post, you know, post work that's required. So I feel seen, I feel heard. I really enjoyed watching the episode. I think that the nuance that they were given, that these characters were given for this one hour will pay some dividends going forward if it goes back into the churn of plot. But I also think the show is what it is. So I feel, I feel happy that we got here.

Chris Ryan

I guess it just, I thought that this episode, if you're not gonna have. Part of the reason why season two kind of fell flat was because everybody was like, okay, when's the battle coming? All right, like, I understand if it's gonna be quiet loud, quiet loud. We have to kind of build up to this battle. But like the way in which it's quiet is so snail paced and so kind of morose and sort of strange and daemon with the tree and all this stuff that's happening and, and you're just like, okay, okay, okay. And then they don't do the battle, you know, and now the beginning of this season was almost too much battle. Yeah, I was almost like, that's cool. But like it's been two years since this show ended and we pretty much jump in and start a massive naval battle with a character with many characters whose motivations I have somewhat forgotten. You know. Now obviously you can do your homework and find out, but I think that if they are going to have episodes where they don't have massive army on army dragon on dragon conflict, this is a really good blueprint. But I don't, I mean, obviously the show is done, so I don't, I don't know.

Andy Greenwald

But we're, we're, we are still, God bless us, you know, we still are covering television on this podcast week to week in an old fashioned model. And the truth is the majority of people who ever watch House of the Dragon will watch it when it's done streaming on, you know, the patio of David Ellison's mega yacht or whatever the case may be. And it may be that much like when, you know, when you said things like, oh, what's my reading order for Jonathan Hickman's Avengers? It'll be like, what's the best way to watch House of the Dragon? And it may well be to watch it in these chunks. And one chunk will be treating last season, season two, as ending two episodes into season three. And then maybe it'll advise you to take a walk around the Block, take a break and then pretend it's starting over here. And that will be a different experience. And that's okay. It just is clearly imbalanced in terms of the story, in terms of how it was delivered to us. Couple things, a couple bullet points for this episode, if I could. One, I found it amusing that Dan Fogler is now on the show.

Chris Ryan

Yes, that's funny. I was like, what?

Andy Greenwald

I mean, it was just funny because he's a fine and amusing and good actor and he was doing a passable. He was doing a fine English accent. It was totally fine. He was good. It was just like a what? It was kind of a lean in moment. And part of me was like, did we actually run out of British character actors? Because Knight of the Seven Kingdom, Star City, and Star City took them all. And they were like, oh, my God, we've called the Royal Shakespeare Company.

Chris Ryan

We've done Levine.

Andy Greenwald

Yeah, is that where we're headed? And I'm kind of here for it. I thought that was amusing. Do you think that King's Landing is ripe for a DSA candidate in the next election?

Chris Ryan

I think that's what Massaria wants.

Andy Greenwald

I think that's what she wants too. But she is still, you know, she's just like, allying herself with the Eric Adams administration, being like, no, no, we can do some work here in the margins.

Chris Ryan

Change from within.

Andy Greenwald

I. I did really, like, again, speaking of things I never thought I would see in a Game of Thrones show, I never thought I would see that cinematic staple giving out turkeys in the hood, like on Thanksgiving. I really enjoyed that scene as well. I Also, across 15 years of this show now, one of my favorite things of this world, one of my favorite things remains, every so often, when someone has a normal name and then you get a line, like an ADR line of, you still have to kill Darren, which just sounds absolutely banal.

Chris Ryan

The hiding a child thing was pretty good.

Andy Greenwald

Oh, because they hid. Because they hid that kid.

Chris Ryan

They hid that kid because Ormond put that kid in the. In the Pierre coffin somewhere. Well, he's not dead, but he just hid him somewhere.

Andy Greenwald

The real one.

Chris Ryan

Yeah.

Andy Greenwald

Yeah. But also, it's not that hard when only nine people have blonde hair. You just have to get some bleach.

Chris Ryan

Yes. But it's like he's also playing on the fact that Alison hasn't seen this kid in years. So it's not like he's hoping that people don't realize, like, what he's done until it's too late.

Andy Greenwald

It's Also, he's really showing deep ball knowledge because he also knows that people haven't watched or thought about the show in two years, and I don't even remember how many kids she has. So with a blonde kid, I was like, oh, guess there's another one. And that's him. He's just. He's just. The sh.

Chris Ryan

Is actually like, a little bit of a runner for fans out there who are like, what? I think he plays a different role in the text. I don't think his actions are different, but I think he's a little bit more present, or at least people have a better understanding of what's going on with him. And I think that they were like, we haven't cast him yet. You know, like, so it was sort of strange. And there's a couple of characters that it doesn't seem. Seem like they're going to introduce because they've sort of maneuvered things so that they can do away with certain. Certain characters, but we'll see.

Andy Greenwald

Like Bob.

Chris Ryan

Kenny. Yeah.

Andy Greenwald

Stevie.

Podcast Sponsor/Ad Voice

Yeah.

Chris Ryan

Christopher Sanchez.

Andy Greenwald

I. I also did want to say, like, in. In. In the hopes that we can unite one of the more popular shows or worlds we cover on the show with one of the more divisive. I did enjoy Top Chef's King's Landing.

Chris Ryan

Which one's divisive?

Andy Greenwald

Well, I feel like sometimes people are like, I rock with these guys when they talk about obscure ass spy shows on Britbox. But the fact that they devote 10 weeks every year to cover season 23 of Top Chef might.

Chris Ryan

And are you about it as passionately as anything in the world.

Andy Greenwald

It's the only thing I care about. That's the only thing keeping me on, to be honest.

Chris Ryan

On Earth.

Andy Greenwald

The case, truly. The King's Landing episode of Top Chef where all the noblemen were there for the tasting, and then they brought. And they. But they did this. They did the fine dining. Like, they all placed it at the same time. And everyone kind of recoiled, like most people do at fine dining restaurants these days.

Chris Ryan

Tom would have been like, did you mean to caramelize the rat?

Andy Greenwald

Yeah. Well, Tom would have been okay with the rat, but there was a little okra on the plate, and he didn't like it. Right. Now.

Chris Ryan

You didn't need another starch.

Andy Greenwald

I thought that too many starches on the rat.

Chris Ryan

I solved two problems at once.

Andy Greenwald

Rats and the rich.

Chris Ryan

And needing a protein for the evening.

Andy Greenwald

Yeah, did need a protein. I. I enjoyed it. I. I like the line. I'm awash with dilemmas and uncertainties that's just being alive in America, brother.

Chris Ryan

Let's talk a little bit about Star City, which we usually say for the very end because I think we assume it's a. Not an acquired taste but a niche offering. And, and you know, it remains in and around like the bottom of the top 10 of Apple, which we don't

Andy Greenwald

know what that means.

Chris Ryan

I don't know what that means. I would like it to be in the top five or the top three because I want it to be renewed because I want to keep watching this show. This was an interesting episode because it was a true testament to just my deep pleasure that I get from watching it. This had a year time jump to

Andy Greenwald

start, I don't think. I think it was into the next year. It was referred to as last summer. I think the implication based on the end of the episode was that it's been about nine months.

Chris Ryan

Okay, I believe you.

Andy Greenwald

Gotcha.

Chris Ryan

And it's worth noting that I think it's becoming a little bit harder to avoid if you're reading about this show. The For All Mankind character echoes, which I didn't know were is as extensive, but I think it's pretty cool and interesting. This was a very melancholy episode of television.

Andy Greenwald

Yeah.

Chris Ryan

You know, like a real, like this is, this is what a sort of authoritarian regime leaves behind in its wake for the people who try to participate in different parts of government and different parts of society and like get broken because they, they try to fly a little too, too close to the despot sun and I. And in that it was great. I thought that the, it essentially followed the same rhythm or rising action as the previous episode. So instead of. And this is spoilers for the season of Star City and for this episode. But instead of the loss of the Venera crew, we got the possible rescue of them or the possible signs of life. I still thought it was gorgeous, the Rachmaninoff playing as they, as they break down these algorithms and start, you know, doing secret channels to Anastasia up in this in the space station.

Andy Greenwald

But also it's like there was a not insignificant montage of beautiful classical piano music while a man wrote algebra with a pencil.

Chris Ryan

Yes.

Andy Greenwald

Thank you, Apple. Like truly like that. I cannot believe they got that through. I don't know how they pitched it. I don't know what it appeared like in the script. But that's, that's not even the first thing to go. That's the thing where you're like in the room, you're like, it would be beautiful, but we will never have beautiful things in this life. And it was great.

Chris Ryan

Again, I feel like I'm a broken record, but I've said that there's been moments on the show that really play the espionage greatest hits. I thought Irina going to, going to Raskova's apartment, that brief look into her life of like kind of wearing this sad tracksuit and having something in the oven. And then her revealing to Raskova that, like, she's been tasked with bugging her and she's like, you should bug me. And then we're also going to like, run a. Run a double on Petroski who's taken over Star City. Was awesome. You know, even if you've seen it

Andy Greenwald

before and it was choosing who you work for and why and who's running who and how. No one ever. Everything is an op. I will say, just as a sidebar, last week you were wondering if Raskova was veering a little too English when she yelled. Sorted out. I think discovering her in her flat dressed like she was in the Verve in 1997 was a real tell as to where her. Her allegiances lie.

Chris Ryan

She's listening to urban hymns.

Andy Greenwald

But it was caught me at a moment. He caught me at a very bucket

Chris Ryan

hat time of my life that the drugs don't work.

Andy Greenwald

Truly, it was beautiful. Please continue your.

Chris Ryan

I mean, we could talk more. I just. My, my headline from this episode is Joseph Davies. He plays Sergei and he obviously gets like a kind of cool moment at the end of the episode. But his reaction.

Andy Greenwald

Yes, thank you so much.

Chris Ryan

To the entire process of trying to apply for a professorship somewhere, like at a college somewhere, which would obviously be a step down financially for him, but would be a break or an escape from Star City where he has essentially been demoted to the sub. Sub basement. And they keep moving his stapler, you know, and then finding out not only that his apartment has been burgled or rousted, but that the guy who was enticing him essentially to make this application was probably spying on him or working against him. And Davies reaction to finding his apartment in this state, because the apartment is really the only, like his like cooking and his music and his books. It's his private world is the only thing that he has got that is like for pleasure in this life, I thought was like, really legitimately, like heartbreaking and a beautiful piece of acting. And he's, he's probably the fifth or sixth build actor on this. And that character actually exists in the for all mankind universe. So I think for some viewers, they're like, this is extraordinary to get to see this guy as a young person. And apparently Davies's performance echoes the older actor's performance as Sergey as he gets older. But I thought it was lovely. And in an episode where a lot of the main faces, Tanya, the cosmonauts, the chief designer, are largely off screen.

Andy Greenwald

Yes.

Chris Ryan

He really stepped in.

Andy Greenwald

I love that you shouted him out, highlighted him. I agree. His performance is brilliant and it's understated and it does what the best acting can do. Because we who have likely hopefully never had our inner sanctum, our private lives, like, tossed like that. He. You could imagine.

Chris Ryan

This guy's got a lot of Zinn.

Andy Greenwald

Oh, no. Found some more. Yeah. How old are these lozenges?

Chris Ryan

Texas Chainsaw Massacre 2 on 4K.

Andy Greenwald

He wasn't fronting about physical media. He really. He's really about this life. If they quietly let themselves out, I think that our gut supposition about how we would feel would be one of anger or sadness or about the mess or whatever our natural pathways of emotion are. What he communicated in that moment was such deep indignity.

Chris Ryan

Yeah. He puts his hand over his mouth to, like, stop him from. Stop himself from actually expressing an emotion.

Andy Greenwald

And the camera captures the broken vinyl records and things. And it is a violation. And it is just one indignity stacked on top of another.

Chris Ryan

It's like, I only have this.

Andy Greenwald

And you've put me in prison already and you've stripped me of my work and of my purpose, and you've stopped listening to me and you've removed. Isolated me from my colleagues, and now you've taken. This was beautiful. And the performance was so gripping that I did. I hadn't googled him before and realized, like, Adam Nogaitis, he was briefly in Chernobyl, but where we had seen him before was. Andor where he's one of the prisoners on Narkina.

Chris Ryan

Oh, shit.

Andy Greenwald

And I'm not saying that, like. Although I feel like basically this podcast is constantly in service of this idea that Tony Gilroy is uniquely able to draw out nuanced performances from British stage actors. But this performance and the role the character plays on this show is cut from the same cloth as to what Tony did with andor where it's like the private lives of public facing genre storytelling is. It's an incredible feat.

Chris Ryan

Do you think Andy Burnham should just cut the dole and just say, we've been able to outsource funding for the arts to Tony Gilroy, who will continue to put British stage actors in giant sci fi epics?

Andy Greenwald

I would bring it Up. But I think Andy Burnham's too busy. Would be viral Instagram. Things where he's like, they're like Stone Roses or Urban Hymns. He was asked that. Stone Roses.

Chris Ryan

I think he's calling Carmine Infantino about

Andy Greenwald

Kwanza's Red Card and about Martian Manhunter's role in the original Crisis on Infinite Earth. Yeah, I thought that was incredible. I thought it was incredibly beautiful. And I would say to your original take on the episode, I think this may have been my favorite episode of the series to date. I thought it was. It's not just that I thought the tone was so elegiac and interesting. It's. It's of a piece of the conversation we were just having about House of the Dragon, which is like when you have a show that has a mandate in the sense that, like, it was pitched and sold as a companion piece, as a spin off, as a way to back. And also for a lot of people,

Chris Ryan

like, you know how this story kind of ends because we already into the. The. I don't know, like the 20th century, 21st century, on the other hand. Yeah, so.

Andy Greenwald

So. So I think that when you accept a job or you, or you're even the one who pitches it, like the larger assignment is manifest and it's. And servicing that takes up reasonably so quite a lot of your creative oxygen and your practical budget. So finding the little pockets and the little space to make something that is special and stands on its own is even more precious and even more rare. And last week when I was talking about the show, I was saying I did feel a little bit of for all mankind mission creep. Not to diss that show, which I have regrets that I've not kept up on. But my feeling that kind of kept me out of it was that there was this inevitable drumbeat of history, history, history. And it was telling us about it as it was breathlessly trying to catch up to what it wanted to say. And last week there was. I had that sense of like, well, now we're onto this next mission. Now we gotta do this. The fact that they took a beat that for a show that was notable for. In episodes five and six, picking up the action seconds after the previous episode ended, like Irina in Tanya's apartment. Which was surprising to me that they did that. But it felt reasonable and interest. Not just reasonable, it felt exciting. That after this incredible cliffhanger of a crescendo of the previous episode that we begin months later, it's just a. It is a really masterful use.

Chris Ryan

Oh, and they also just sewed it up by having Raskova's report. Kind of basically yada yada, what happened.

Andy Greenwald

You know, it's a masterful use of off speed pitches, let's say, you know, of like, oh, now, oh, something has changed. And again, like I. There was not a single moment in watching this episode that I thought the Venus mission was lost. Because these are three. Two. No, with Chadia joining it. I mean, she was not initially in the cast, but the other two are two of the leads of the show. And I'm not saying the show is so sentimental that it can't kill main characters, especially as it turns towards the 21st century. But that story wasn't done. You don't have. What's his name?

Chris Ryan

Sasha.

Andy Greenwald

You don't. Not just Sasha, the other guy.

Chris Ryan

Nagatus.

Andy Greenwald

No, wait, Thalia. Sasha. You don't have. Thank you.

Chris Ryan

Sasha's honest. Dahlia's husband.

Andy Greenwald

You don't have them fall in love accidentally and then leave Earth without some resolution.

Chris Ryan

Yes.

Andy Greenwald

So I knew they were coming back. The question is, how do we get there? And I just think it's remarkable when you have creators who are like, let's see. Let's solve this problem and see it as an opportunity. I thought it was totally pleasurable to watch.

Chris Ryan

Were you psyched to get a little George Bush cameo?

Andy Greenwald

I am always wondering what the Bush family is up to in an alternate history where they can sort of shake free of right and left, you know, and just be good sense versus no sense, you know, apparently it's an underrated presidency according to historians.

Chris Ryan

I wonder if in for all mankind George W. Just stays as the Rangers

Andy Greenwald

owner and then becomes a painter. Yeah, I mean, be great.

Chris Ryan

Hopefully we're gonna have Matt and Ben who created the show on if hopefully this week. And I unfortunately won't be here for that episode because I'm gonna be in Toronto. But Andy is gonna hopefully be talking to those guys this week.

Andy Greenwald

Yeah. Is this time for some other housekeeping?

Chris Ryan

Sure.

Andy Greenwald

Well, I think that if we are able to line this up, this is

Chris Ryan

exactly where Kya likes to keep all of our important show announcements at minute 52.

Andy Greenwald

I totally agree about Star City. You guys clip this, right? This is gonna be good. That we will hold the episode till Friday when the season finale comes up.

Chris Ryan

Yes.

Andy Greenwald

But also I was gonna. I had an idea. Let me know how you feel about this because you're gonna be traveling, so really I could just do it.

Chris Ryan

You could do whatever you want, but

Andy Greenwald

I don't feel comfortable with that much freedom.

Chris Ryan

Do you want me to drop questions from space and hope that they land

Andy Greenwald

at the right place. But all the other podcasts find the questions and they get mad. I wondered if it would be useful to do a prompt if there. I don't know if anybody cares about this stuff, but if there's any like super specific like industry type questions of like working in the minds questions for

Chris Ryan

me, those guys or for that.

Doug

No.

Andy Greenwald

Or just like we could do an

Chris Ryan

all ask Andy anything kind of.

Andy Greenwald

Is that I within reason.

Chris Ryan

Do you do whatever you want to do?

Andy Greenwald

But you know what I mean. Because I don't know, maybe that's interesting to people.

Chris Ryan

Yeah, there's some actually like there are a fair amount of question for Andy's in our inbox.

Andy Greenwald

Okay, well, I'm happy to tackle that.

Chris Ryan

Where's your favorite piece of steamed fish you've ever had? You know.

Andy Greenwald

Well, that's a great question. Cafe Deco is amazing. Western's laundry, though actually often has. It's kind of deep in Arsenal country now, which is feeling a little iffy for me.

Chris Ryan

Oh, do you want to announce your Tottenham Hotspur lifelong fandom?

Andy Greenwald

I don't need to announce something that's been part of me from the very beginning.

Chris Ryan

I think an ask Andy anything pod would be.

Andy Greenwald

Will you slip in some questions that have been lingering?

Chris Ryan

No, just things you wanted to know. I got. I think I know the whole story.

Andy Greenwald

You're good.

Doug

And we're live from the living room as Doug eyes up the match day spread. He's reaching for the buffalo wing. Perfect. Hang on. What's this? Oh, he's gone for a can of Pepsi too. Incredible. What a finish since sensational combination. Look at the delight on his face. There's no doubt about it. It just tastes better. Match days deserve Pepsi. Food deserves Pepsi. Grab a pack of Pepsi. Zero sugar for today's match. It's poetry in motion.

Chris Ryan

Hey, it's Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile. Now I was looking for fun ways to tell you that Mint's offer of unlimited Premium Wireless for $15 a month is back. So I thought it would be fun if we made $15 bills, but it turns out that's very illegal. So there goes my big idea for the commercial. Give it a try@mint mobile.com switch.

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Chris Ryan

Do you want to talk about the Agency at all, I think. I wonder whether or not, like, if you want, I know you're up through three, right? Yeah, I am through five. We both think this season is extraordinary. We have had somewhat similar conversations as we've chipped away at this second season. And they've basically been like, it's funny to watch this very, very, very thrilling and expertly made cover song of a song we adore. And I think that that has disoriented us. But I will say that I am fully loving this season. I would like to ask you a question. Is any of the methodical way that we are going about this tied not only to the fact that somewhat we know the story in the broad strokes because we watch the Bureau, but also that Paramount has not announced its season three renewal.

Andy Greenwald

It's not just that Paramount hasn't announced a renewal. It's that they dropped the entire season over a weekend, which is not what they did with season one. And correct me if I'm wrong, I have not seen any press. I don't mean, like, I haven't seen, like, wraparound ads on buses. Have the people involved in the show.

Chris Ryan

I do not have a grand theory of this, but I will say that I have seen on social media, various places, a kind of wave of Michael Fassbender on the hardest scene from Steve Jobs. And I was like, why the fuck is that a blog post? And I'm like, oh, because they're asking.

Andy Greenwald

Oh, he did do an interview about it.

Chris Ryan

Well, no, they did junkets. But I think so much of junket stuff now is a guy going in and he's got Katherine Waterston and Michael Fassbender. He's like, I have to ask them about these five movies that they did. Like, I can ask a couple of Agency questions. But then it's like, when you were playing David and Prometheus, did you think that you were both and that stuff then gets aggregated? Yeah, but then the editors of these sites or these algorithms can just be like, nobody's watching the Agency. We can just publish all this Prometheus and Steve Jobs stuff. Now, I don't. That's not like a conspiracy or anything against the show, but I do think it's something interesting about it. Used to be kind of like, you would go to these things and you would be like, I have 10 minutes. And I can be like, what did you. Why did you. What drew you to this role and all that stuff. And now it's like, I have 10 minutes. Hold a dog, try a hot wing, and Tell me about these three movies that have nothing to do with the agency. So I don't know if it's working for them or not. But like I, I do find that I have anecdotally heard from people out there.

Andy Greenwald

Yeah.

Chris Ryan

Who are like. Yeah, like I don't like starting shows that aren't going to finish.

Andy Greenwald

Oh, for sure, we've heard that.

Chris Ryan

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, this is a, a dense, complex adult thriller that I think is hitting its stride and clearly was a massive investment to get gear and Wright and Waterson and all these people to do it. To say nothing of the British actors who are all sometimes playing Americans who are also.

Andy Greenwald

They shot the show in London, Kenya and Morocco.

Chris Ryan

Yeah, like that's like 2019 money.

Andy Greenwald

It's wild.

Chris Ryan

And we have the merger coming and we have no definitive news yet. And it's been five weeks, it's been a minute, a couple weeks. A couple weeks since this came out.

Andy Greenwald

Do you feel like I am slightly to blame because when we had the entire cast of the agency available to us and I only asked Katherine Waterson 10 minutes of questions about her role, role in the HBO avant garde theater show the Third Day, I think that

Chris Ryan

might have contributed to some, some soft numbers.

Andy Greenwald

I don't regret it. Fascinating show. I think that's really well observed. I think

Chris Ryan

I, I think this is an interesting conversation in relationship to Star City too, which also has not been officially renewed to my knowledge. I know that Matt and Ben created the show. Talked about like, we're not going to do decade jumping. We're going to keep it in the

Andy Greenwald

70s and tell the story of Star City specifically. Not get into the Mars, like what,

Chris Ryan

what's it like for a Russian like on the other side of a scene that you've already seen in For All Mankind. But I do think that there that like it would be a mistake to just say like we have the roadmap for a five or six season show. Presumably Michael Fassbender committed to that going into this.

Andy Greenwald

Yeah, I mean, I think, well, a couple things. I think it would just because, well, more than a few things. Libero is one of the great television shows of all time. Everyone should check it out. The way that each season builds the world out while also diving deeper into the possibilities already presented by the characters we thought we knew is extraordinary and just worth watching. Whether you love tv, want to make it anything. So the thought of assembling this kind of Avengers and then not getting to do that level of work, knowing what could happen for Jeffrey Wright's character for John Magaro's character like that is a real shame because it's the best of new TV in the sense of its ambition and old TV in the sense of, God, I love that guy. I didn't even notice him for two years. That's a real shame. I'll say that my interesting experience with this season is that I am finding it incredibly. I mean, I love the story because I love the story. I love watching Richard Gear be in a TV show. He's just cooking. I'm finding it incredibly engaging, both because the story is engaging and because of the pace of the storytelling. I am finding it a little.

Chris Ryan

You're also passionate about ethical diamond mining.

Andy Greenwald

Thank you. Well and accurate South African accent work, which, frankly has been absent from our screens for some time.

Chris Ryan

Since Lethal Winter, perhaps before Blood diamond, you know, who knows?

Andy Greenwald

Certainly before Blood Diamond. So congrats to Michael Fassbender for bringing that back. I have found it a little ham fisted at times this season.

Chris Ryan

Okay.

Andy Greenwald

Both in the sense of, like, the John Magaro character. Owen, like, being bad at doing spy stuff. And that's sort of textual. Like he's not good at it.

Chris Ryan

Yeah.

Andy Greenwald

But then also the people around him being like, I just trust you for some reason, Steve. Let's go to the Central African Republic. That's like, we gotta. We gotta get the show on the road. But also, that was weaker to me than some of the other things that are going on.

Chris Ryan

And weaker to you than the Bureau version of it, for sure.

Andy Greenwald

I think the other thing that. That frustrates me slightly. I do enjoy the Butterworths. Writing an American cast, talking about American cultural perspectives.

Chris Ryan

What's up, Snowflake?

Andy Greenwald

Yeah, it's like you libtard Snowflake. I'm like, why don't you listen to me talk about the English national team for 10 minutes, then we can see our square. There are moments that I just feel like are missed opportunities, but the sort of missed opportunities that could become gold over the course of a longer run. Like. Like Jeffrey Wright is so. He's such a brilliant actor and he's funny. This show is not written so much for him to be funny. So that when he gets like a small crumb, like the scene when Fassbender asks him to give him control of Gremlin, the agent they're running in Iran, and he goes, let me think about it.

Chris Ryan

I thought about it.

Andy Greenwald

That's funny. And like, I wish we could have a little bit more of.

Chris Ryan

That's the guy.

Andy Greenwald

No, but him he makes it funny.

Chris Ryan

He does.

Andy Greenwald

And the show is written.

Chris Ryan

And I love the whole like the Katherine Waterston pulling the guy into the one blind spot and him then going and getting the device. Of course it's a blind spot. Yeah.

Andy Greenwald

I love that. I wish there was more room for that, but I sometimes feel like that that's the kind of spontaneity that comes from more fluid productions as opposed to something that is. So we have this much time. We are doing it on this budget, we have this blueprint and we have these very busy screenwriting brothers and we are going to execute.

Chris Ryan

Yeah.

Andy Greenwald

Sometimes I appreciate that efficiency in terms

Chris Ryan

of Tom Hardy's trying to kill one of them.

Andy Greenwald

It's possible. We don't know what's going on off screen. Anyway, all this is to say we will circle back, we will cover those.

Chris Ryan

So we have Thursday's show will be. Or Friday's show release will probably be Star City finale related and some Ask Andy anything stuff. I then think you're out the following Monday.

Andy Greenwald

I am. We have a lot of travel this summer.

Chris Ryan

We do. And I'll do some exciting work that day.

Andy Greenwald

You should. You should do it. You should do a follow up.

Chris Ryan

But maybe, maybe next Thursday. Are you back next Thursday? We can finish the agency.

Andy Greenwald

Do you think we should. Would you want to spend some of Monday fact checking my answers to the questions about me and just being like that was a lie?

Chris Ryan

No. I think you're like a dazzling broadcaster and I'm sure you'll really do a great job with whatever you decide to do on Friday and wherever you decide to take this show going forward.

Andy Greenwald

Thank you.

Chris Ryan

Thanks to Kaya, Kai and Sarah. We are going to wrap up there. We have explained the short term future of this show sounds so dark about two thirds of the way into the podcast. So just go on, scroll on back if you want and we'll talk to you on later this week with some more Star City stuff and some more exciting television.

Andy Greenwald

Are you bullish on the long term future of this podcast?

Podcast Sponsor/Ad Voice

Sure.

Chris Ryan

Sure.

Andy Greenwald

Wow. Okay, great.

Chris Ryan

Bye, guys.