A

I need support staff to clear the room.

B

Stand up and walk now.

A

Hello, and welcome to the Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor@theringer.com and joining me in the studio tearfully singing Talk tonight instead of Wonderwall, it's Andy Greenwald.

B

It's terrible.

A

It's not coming home.

B

It turns out it is not coming home. Thank you for having me on the Bill Simmons podcast, Chris. I appreciate it. Yeah, it's nice to be here, I

A

guess I should say. I got to host the Bill Simmons podcast yesterday. I had Ian Wright and Anthony De Bundo and Sean Fennesee on. We talked about the England Argentina match. We talked about the Odyssey. De Bundo and Ian Wright had a lot of thoughts on the Odyssey and did they. And Sean. Ben thought Donna Stuchol was a coward.

B

The Great Zag.

A

Yeah, I.

B

First of all, congratulations. Thanks, man. No small achievement. It's a great podcast.

A

It is.

B

Would you like a constructive note?

A

Sure.

B

I just think.

A

Did you listen?

B

I. I started it.

A

Oh, yeah, yeah.

B

No, it's good. It's. It's. Listen. It's good. It's good. My note, though, is the next time that he gives you the keys to his choice ride, I think you got to be a little bit more like the parking garage attendants and Ferris Bueller. Sam.

A

So you think I played it too safe?

B

I think you got to open it up. You know what I mean?

A

Do. When you say that.

B

Yeah.

A

Do you mean I needed to open it up like, me personally and just start going, like, bing bong. It's Wayne Jenkins? Or do you think, like, is it morning Zoo it up? Or do you think the guests were too conservative?

B

No, no, no. I just think, first of all, great question, great phrasing.

A

Yeah.

B

You would have done numbers if you had done cr. Side talk. I don't know. I just feel like I want. You did bring some of yourself to it, clearly, because you brought soccer and you brought Sean Fennesee and the Odyssey.

A

Yeah, I like that.

B

You like that stuff.

A

Yeah.

B

I'm just trying to think of, like, maybe some more personal, like, a deep dive into Len Dynton's, like, later works.

A

So you want it to be included, is what you're saying.

B

No, no. You wouldn't talk to me.

A

Yeah.

B

You would talk to, like, Len Dyton's son, Ben Dighton or something. I just don't.

A

Here's the thing, you got to learn about being political in this world.

B

Yes.

A

Yes.

B

Yeah.

A

You and me, we're the. We're the primary but when you get to Bill, it's the general and you got to pivot to the center, right.

B

Because I'm running to your left. That's totally right. When you get to the general, that's

A

what I turned into Haley Stevens.

B

Totally true.

A

Your heads will get that one.

B

It's totally right. Okay. Well, I thought you did a great job.

A

Thanks. No, thank you.

B

That is exciting and we have a lot to talk about.

A

Did you actually listen? I can't tell.

B

I started it, but then I was sitting in my car and I was going to like, crush more of it on like 4x. And then you saw me sitting in my car in the parking lot and

A

I was like, what's up, man?

B

The thing you usually do, which is check if I'm weeping, which was cool. I wasn't. Can you imagine if every day you're like, it's gonna be that kind of crying again?

A

Andy, What a day. On the podcast today because we'll do some watch After Dark about our weekend in Philly and our experience with the World cup as it comes to a conclusion.

B

That's all coming at the end. Oh, man, I'm chomping at the bit.

A

If you want to do it now, then After Dark can be in the morning.

B

Tell the people. I think that's going to happen now.

A

Most of America, the co host here, so you can. You can make the decisions, too.

B

Isn't After Dark going to be the norm for most of America once daylight savings time becomes permanent? Did you read about this?

A

I did read about this. I mean, I've been reading the news this whole. This whole month.

B

No wonder you're so cheerful. Okay, finish. Finish the rundown.

A

I'm in a good mood.

B

I know, and I'll tell you why. Yeah.

A

Because today we're going to do the best TV of the year so far. Okay, we've reached this sort of like, you know, obviously it's quite late in July. It's an odd time to be doing the best TV of the first half of the year because it's more than half of the year is over. But now that we got all the Emmy shows kind of out of our system and under the wire to be considered for awards consideration. And we have hit a little bit of a dead zone where, you know, you've got House of the Dragon still running. People may be catching up on things like the agency, Cape Fear wrapping up, and then kind of not a lot other than like Ted Lasso, the Will Ferrell show, the Hawk. You know, I talked about this with Joanna. But, like, they're. They're taking. Taking July and August off out here in Hollyweird, and I wanted to just kind of put a marker on, like, okay, what do we think? What's the best of what we've gotten so far and whether we think it's a good year? There may be some surprise entries in there of shows that we have not had a chance to really discuss that deeply.

B

Oh, right, you want to fold that into this, because there's a show in particular I want to talk about, but it's. It's on my list.

A

I know that you have a comprehensive notes app that covers your entire life, and if you would like to structure this show on the fly, we can.

B

Bananas, ground turkey, olive oil, clean glasses, and then some notes about the rise of Alamo on Euphoria season three.

A

But yeah, we could do World cup and Philly right now.

B

No, let's do. Okay, so let's do World cup at the end because we do have a lot to talk about. Obviously. I am wearing a shirt to support La Furia Roja Espana, which has been my team from the beginning.

A

Elite. If you immediately changed, your entire vibe was like. It was like the tiki taga.

B

It always has been. I don't use large plates at home ever. Only pequeno.

A

Do you like a tin fish?

B

Yeah.

A

Yeah, sure.

B

Who. Who doesn't?

A

I'm not allowed to have tinned fish in my house.

B

Really? What?

A

Yeah, my wife doesn't like the smell.

B

So you're. So you go outside like an alley cat at all?

A

I mean, like, I don't really dabble. Yeah.

B

Oh, come through. We'll crack a couple tins. Like when I'm in England and they're like tinnies on the train. I thought they meant like some beautiful Portuguese squid, you know, Are you popular

A

on trains in England?

B

So popular. Well, breakfast is more hard boiled egg season. You know what I mean? Okay, we'll do that at the end. But I did want to say that we had a lovely brief encounter, much like the film in Philadelphia this weekend where we watched England's last victory. And it was. It's great to see you.

A

Yeah. England, Norway. We watched A Bad Brother and it was awesome. What a vibe.

B

Can I just. I feel like this is. This is important for the listeners to understand that, like. So I flew across the country. I went straight from the airport to Bad Brother and to walk into this wonderful public house crowded. And I spotted you at the end of the bar and you're chatting with Nick, who's Awesome is the owner. And now I know what it's like to be friends with Norm and walk into Cheers.

A

Well, Norm was a little bit antisocial.

B

Okay, so you are Wellbutrin Norm, like super popular and chatty.

A

And I was like, I don't want to talk to anybody. I just want giant mugs of beer so I can avoid going home to my wife.

B

You're resisting what I'm trying to say.

A

I understand what you're which is that

B

you are the king of these Fairmount streets. And it was very cool to be basking in your aura, frankly, just for a short time.

A

It was a great place to watch the game and I appreciate you being there. And then I went out and saw my buddies from this band called the Shyness Clinic who were very active in the late 90s in Boston when I was living there. And I lived with some of them in Mission Hill in Boston in the late 90s. They got their band back together for the first time in more than 25 years in. And it was incredible to see them. They played at the Yuki Hall. They played New York and Boston as well. And it was awesome to see them.

B

Those are great guys. Do you think we should bring back our late 90s zine that we talked about making?

A

I think that this is the scene, literally is literally.

B

So you went and you saw a great show, great friends. I brought my older daughter to visit my. My aging parents. And the one thing that I was eager to tell you was I was sort of hopeful that there might be some new opportunities for cross cultural dialogue because my daughter had been in New York with her other grandparents who took her to see Ragtime, the musical that is back on Broadway.

A

Dr. O season.

B

So I, you know, my father has strong opinions about musicals and Doctorow. So I mentioned that she had seen. And my father went on a, I would say, quite repetitive rant about how only in this recent iteration of the show at Lincoln center has the New York Times given it its due. The New York Times had it out for that show. A fine show. While he kind of just sort of really dug in on that point, I noticed on the bookshelf, like, he does have obviously many books, but like every

A

issue of the New York Times ever,

B

Cat Cross index for Frank Rich's wrong opinions. I went to the bookshelf and I pulled down what turned out to be a first edition of E.L. doctorow's 1975 novel Ragtime. That sponsored. That sponsored. Inspired this musical. And I was like. To my daughter, I was like, look, you Know, look, triangles of literature or whatever. And the first thing that I realized was the problem. She took the book. She was interested.

A

Yeah.

B

She turned to the back cover and 70s hardcovers, as you remember. The author photo often is the entire back. So it's fucking Ed Doctoro, Jim Henson ass, corduroy and beard full, bald bait. Just looking like, yeah, I wrote this shit. I'll do it again next year. So immediately she was like, I don't know about this.

A

Right.

B

She flipped through it, and this is, by the way, on the way over, she was like, maybe I'll read the book. It's so interesting. American history, all this.

A

I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's all happening. Maybe one day watch Ken Burns Civil War.

B

Maybe one day you'll have a podcast. And so she. She sort of looked through and then, like, put it aside. And I was like, oh, I guess she didn't want to really delve into the classic. So I opened it up, and like, you. You forget, you know, we're from a different era, different generation. And beginning of chapter two, and I'm. I'm. I'm slightly misquoting here, but I believe the beginning of chapter two is. Mother and father were displeased that Houdini's visit had interrupted their coitus. Like, that's really what literature was.

A

Yeah, for sure. Yeah. I mean, like, you get to, like, three page descriptions of a phallus by John Updike, and you find out some things about yourself as a reader.

B

What's exciting with Updike is you're not sure whose phallus it is until, like, the third paragraph.

A

So a lot of guys playing basketball.

B

Exactly. The steam room was quite large back then. So is he talking about others? Is it a mirror situation? So, you know, culture moves on. It's all right.

A

I have a couple of things about culture to ask you about before we get to our list. Number one, one of the central creatives at the foundation of this podcast, someone whose work we return to over and over again, Tony Gilroy, whose words they function as, like, the intro to this podcast. When you hear Stand up and Walk, that's obviously from the Bourne Legacy, Edward Norton in the Crisis Suite. He's got a new movie coming out. It's his first theatrical feature since Clayton.

B

Right. It's the Bourne Legacy.

A

Since the Bourne Legacy. Right. Excuse me, Are we going to have

B

to replace the opening of this podcast with Pedro Pascal being like, I've always loved the cello. Do you think that would give the same kind of.

A

I think we would have even more deeper completion rates.

B

I mean, look, this is.

A

This is.

B

This is the Ringer's number one Yale Doctorow podcast already.

A

I'm sure Brian Curtis is like, well, that's actually true.

B

He's coming for our crown.

A

But I was wondering if you saw the behemoth trailer. This is his film about a classical musician who plays in film in orchestras, but also primarily in film scores. And that cellist is played by Pedro Pascal, as Andy mentioned, also starring the film Ava Victor, Will Arnett and Olivia Wilde, who we just saw in the invite. What did you make of the teaser? Because it is very much a teaser. I think there's like three lines of dialogue in it.

B

I think that it is a. Look, you already said it. We are deeply in the tank for Uncle Tony. We're very excited about this movie. We've had the chance to talk to him about it. He is very excited and passionate about this project and very bullish on how it was turning out when we, when we heard from him. And I love that Searchlight was like, yes, we see your vision here. We understand that this is not canonically part of the Reed Richards expanded universe. And yet we are still going to release it into theaters. And they're steering into. It appears that in the marketing that they are steering into what the movie is, which is a very, very kind of heady, emotional, psychological, not exactly thriller, but drama that makes music. And also like a deep, deep love of movies and how movies used to get made, which is very autobiographical for Tony because his father Frank is a famous writer for the stage and screen. I thought, looked, I thought, I think the marketing looks up to the task, which was exciting to see.

A

It'll probably, I imagine, Fox Search later. It's probably going to be a late fall awards season release.

B

It's scheduled for December, which gives it Runway to be in a festival. Good. I would imagine. I defer to Bill Simmons podcast guest Sean Fennesee for that bit of info. Did he drop any of that yesterday?

A

I feel like I insulted you a little bit.

B

Not at all. You would not want me talking about the Odyssey on a podcast presented by millions because I haven't seen it and don't really have a take. Did you read it in school?

A

Did you guys read the Odyssey in school?

B

Oh, well, we were both at Quaker schools, but some were a little more rigorous, I guess, than others.

A

A three sport athlete, so, you know, didn't have a lot of time for Cyclops.

B

Did you pay for nerds?

A

The only Cyclops, I acknowledge was that umpire behind me. Am I right?

B

It's good. Did you pay for some nerd to do the papers for you?

A

No, I was probably the nerd doing the papers. Did you. But did you actually read the Odyssey?

B

I believe I read the Odyssey in college. In college, but for fun.

A

No way.

B

No, no, no. Come on.

A

I'm just trying to steer that moment there where I was reading, like, the letters of Robert Lowell and Elizabeth Bishop, and I was like, this is gonna be such a lucrative life for myself.

B

I can really. If you squint, you can see the path towards profitability.

A

Thirty years later, I'm just like, yeah, John Travolta was really bad in domestic disturbance.

B

Bing bong. Good stuff.

A

There was another trailer that I wanted to ask you about, but I don't

B

know if you've actually seen it last behemoth take.

A

Oh, sure.

B

I did have another question. So do you feel like this is. This is a heat check moment for Will Arnett, dramatic actor? Do you do. When you see.

A

Isn't. Is this thing on? Is the heat check right? Well, we've now. We've now entered the hot zone.

B

Do you think?

A

I don't even know what that term would be. It's like when you let a heat check shooter just keep shooting.

B

Right. So my point was that like, he.

A

I guess that's like Cam Thomas, you know, who's now out of the league. It's like, just keep, keep chugging it up there, man. You got it.

B

Unlike Will. Unlike Will Arnett, Cam Thomas does not have a podcast to fall back on.

A

He easily could, though.

B

Do you think? Yeah. Do you think the NBA needs more

A

X player podcasts just as much as they do Will Arnett podcast.

B

Yeah. That's the take you should have used on Bill. I. I just wondered if, like, I, I thought it was interesting that and I think Olivia Wilde, you and I both think was incredible in the invite.

A

Yes.

B

So I'm excited to see her acting in this movie. And I think it's. He cast people, you know, it is a very, like, 2025. I don't. Tony doesn't work like this, but in terms of studios, like, greenlighting people, I think coming into, like, being in 2025, being like, oh, Will Arnett's probably going to get an Oscar nomination for Is this Thing On? Pedro Pascal is going to be in the number one movie of the year, Fantastic Four.

A

Well, they both replaced other actors on this movie.

B

That's true.

A

So Pedro Pascal replaced Oscar Isaac, who was initially attached to them. Barnett came in For David Harbour.

B

Right. So. So Moon Knight and Red Guardian were originally going to be in it. Yeah. And we ended up with Mr. Fantastic and Jobe.

A

Yeah. Okay, Win, I have a question for you that I did not prepare you for. So I don't know if you have an answer.

B

I'll take some coffee.

A

Have one sip.

B

Will we?

A

I'll use we.

B

Yeah.

A

Will we be breaking our Ryan Murphy fast? Oh, our embargo to check out the shards. His adaptation of Brett Easton Ellis is.

B

I'm so glad you asked this question. Yes. Yes, we will. Yes, we will.

A

Did you watch the trailer?

B

I didn't actually.

A

Okay. It doesn't. It did not scream Brady's Danellis to me.

B

Did it scream Ryan Murphy?

A

More than that. More than Brady Snellis. I think that there are like the Brady Stone Ellis of. It came through in the voiceover narration about what these characters like to do, which is hump and do coke.

B

Get after it.

A

Yeah. But I haven't read the shards. Is it any good?

B

I didn't finish the shards. I was. I went back to, you know, poet. Epic poetry speaking. That actually is not the. If you're putting your arms around my collegiate experience reading experience. It really did toggle between Freddie Sonellis and Homer. I am a big fan of Brady Snellas novels and sometimes apologist of his novels. And I usually have had the get up and go to finish them. Even the weaker ones. I couldn't do it with the shards.

A

What would you say is the best?

B

Best. What's your favorite Rules of Attraction? I love Rules of Attraction. And the movie's pretty good too. But

A

what's. Did you do one where it's like. No, it's. I sometimes get like mid to late Macinerni and mid to like.

B

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

A

Confused. But is which one set? Had one set in Japan.

B

Oh, that's that. You mean you're talking about McInerney second novel, Ransom. Yeah. Which. In which an incredibly handsome guy named like Mac, Jack and Ernie, like goes to Japan to like study the purity of karate at a dojo and like sleep with women. We used to be a proper country. Okay. Are we allowed to say that? That book is so insane and it is 100% just been memory hole.

A

Do you think if we pitch that to Paramount plus right now we would get greenlit?

B

Paramount's the studio that's interested, I'll tell you that much. So all this is to say, really, I think maybe the only Ryan Murphy project that I've really enjoyed was the O.J. american crime story, O.J. season. And we.

A

I like the. I liked what I. I think I, I think I finished. I like the Versace one too.

B

Oh, yeah, that was. Okay. So, but particularly I thought the OJ One. And to, and to a different degree, the, the Versace one, I just thought that was a perfect combination of subject matter and artist or story and storyteller, because the OJ Story is tawdry. And I think Ryan Murphy is a poet laureate of particular. Particular flavor of like California tawdry. So I think the marriage of him with Brady San Ellis is a potentially a really good one. Like, in the sense that they, I think, would operate well together.

A

Yeah.

B

So I am interested.

A

Okay. Well, that'll be something new and fresh for us and we, we could use a refresh.

B

It also has your preferred Homer. Homer gear.

A

It's got Homer gear and Kaia Gerber, am I right?

B

Two of your favorites who just did it on their own. You know what I mean?

A

Just like, look, as a Nepo, I can't really blame him.

B

It's true. Do you guys have a meeting that's you go to.

A

Hey, Kaya, what's up? Cool.

B

What are you reading? She's got a copy of your dad's, like, 1981 video guide open.

A

Okay. So do you want to call this the best shows of the year or do you want to call it our favorite shows of the year? Here's the thing that I've been struggling with, Andy. Okay. The unknowability of the totality of television, you know, and also maybe, maybe not wanting to know everything. And, you know, because it's like, it's like I think that there are going to be some things that get left out here. There are going to be some things that we.

B

This list that we're going to.

A

I mean, you could, you could make arguments that something should be get in. Should get in there. But I have, I have felt more challenged this year than usual by staying on top of, like, everything that's relevant in television.

B

Do you have like a list of. Not to put you on the spot, but do you have like a woulda coulda's list? Like things that you kind of hoped you hope to engage with or things that you feel remiss? Because I'll tell you one thing, my conscience is clear. Is it crystal?

A

You don't care?

B

No, I didn't say I don't care, but like, I. Hit me if you have some. Because I'm curious.

A

I mean, like, it's like riot girls, like the Sally.

B

Oh, yeah.

A

Yeah, you know, like, I feel bad for not seeing that, like, we've been criminally behind on or really ignorant of dark winds. I really only watched the first few episodes of Interview with a Vampire, so I'm not prepared for, like, the Vampire Lestat, like, things like that, where I know that there are things of people, I really respect their opinion, love, and I just haven't caught up on it. And I think probably they look at us and they're like, damn, those guys. Like Star City.

B

It's true. What about. Maybe we'll get to it when we finally can get to it. But I do find. I do find what's happened to that show the Gold so interesting in that we really, really, really love the first season of it. They made a second season of it, which was released in the UK last year and I believe is now coming to our shores via PBS Masterpiece or something in the fall.

A

I have to tell you something that is so specific. Last night I had a couple of glasses of no Shame in it.

B

And this was after you recorded the Bill Simmons?

A

Yes, it was after. And then I. I tucked into bed because I knew I had to come in here and chat with you.

B

You need to rest for that.

A

And about midway through London Falling, the Patrick Raden Keefe book.

B

Oh, yeah.

A

And right as I was like, getting into bed, the. The Gold case comes up in the book.

B

No.

A

And I was just like, the streams are crossing. Let's go.

B

Did you sit bolt upright in bed? Yes. Was Phoebe alarmed? No. That's cool.

A

Yeah. I was like, this is what it's all about.

B

I'm just. I'm just trying to think, though, of any example of something that was relatively available, like the season, season one. And now it's like, you have to. It's like, oh, I. I used to get this product at Albertsons or Acme or whatever your local supermarket is, but now it's only available by bespoke delivery from, like, the tinned fish shop, you know, outside of Seville.

A

I almost wish we could go back to, like, going to, like, websites like iraqgoals.net.

B

that was you, dude.

A

That was me. That was my spot.

B

Correct. Coles just.

A

You could. Because that's where I used to watch, like, live streamed soccer.

B

That's also where you were like, you ever heard about a show called Black Mirror? Yeah. And I was like, no. Is it in the uk? And you were like, not yet. It's only on this website.

A

It was like, basically you had to like, download episodes of Black Mirror off of BBC from, like, Torrents and stuff.

B

Is the statute of limitations clear on that?

A

Do you think they can come for me? If they want, but I think I can think of a few defense attorneys who would take my case up.

B

Okay, well, I think this is also smart because I think we've learned in recent elections that, like, Gen Z voters, they don't really care. What they care about is how you own it. You know what I mean? Like, own your problematic past or posts, as the case may be for you.

A

How do you want to do our best of here?

B

What did you do?

A

I have a long list of 17 shows.

B

Oh, damn.

A

I have a numbered list of 10.

B

I have a numbered list of ten. I bet we have tons of overlap. As listeners of the podcast, I was wondering.

A

Ordinarily, I would count us down, but I think that it might be a little bit more interesting if we sort of said we stipulate that these are the top five, which I think would probably, for both of us, the same things. Would you like to tell me your top five?

B

Of course. I'm looking at it and I'm like, who wrote this list?

A

I'll tell you what my top five is while you think about yours.

B

What's weird about my list, because we were discussing before we started, like, how I use the Notes app, is that my list is, like, the Pit Almonds. You know what I mean?

A

Almonds is a great show.

B

Almonds are really good for you. Okay. Yeah.

A

Why don't you go and as far as I know, not like smothered in parasites.

B

As far as you know.

A

Yeah. Number one, I have Widow's Bay.

B

Me too.

A

Number two, I have Industry.

B

Okay.

A

Number three, I have Star City.

B

That's my number three, too. Yeah.

A

Number four, I have the Pit.

B

Wow. Okay.

A

What is that? Okay.

B

Yeah, we're Spider man meme right now.

A

And number five, I have Knight of the Seven Kingdoms.

B

Okay. We are exactly the same, boy, except at number two, instead of industry, I have beef.

A

Is industry in your top five?

B

Top five? No. Top ten? Yes.

A

Interesting.

B

Yeah.

A

Okay.

B

I am who I'm being consistent.

A

Is there is. There is Widows Bay, Recency bias. Is it the. It's the shiny new car on the lot. What is it that makes it the number one show for us so far?

B

I think that it's a combination of all the things we love best about tv. I think that it's without question, we are. I know this is true for me, but I think it's true for us collectively. In the podcast. We really get excited about something that is getting everyone excited. We get excited about the potential for surprise even in this over indexed media landscape. We get excited about the, it's a very pure old fashioned kind of joy of sharing the good news that there is something really wonderful out there that you can discover and adopt. And the week to week release of Widow's Bay reminded me of the week to week release of The Pit Season 1. It did remind me of like those first beautiful few weeks five years ago or four years ago when the Pit, sorry, when the bear dropped. So that collective euphoria is definitely part of it. But the other thing about it was no show that's been out this year so far brought me a as much joy, but also just made me so deeply, deeply impressed in the sense of like the, the, the aesthetic and writerly and producerial and directorial achievement of it was just at such a high bar that it just, it just made me very happy.

A

Yeah, I, I think that there is always going to be an extra 10% of, of juice that comes out of being like, wow, new people, new characters, actors who I'm familiar with in different roles, like getting to express themselves in different ways. And I think the totality, the realization of the world that, that Katie Dippold and Hiro Marai brought to us was just, just astonishing. You know, they came on the show, we talked about that. I, I, I kind of had like a moment of revelation when Hiro was talking about, you know, putting, working with Katie to build out the visual world of that show. And you know, and I often, I think get seduced by the by camera movement or you know, you know, expressive lighting or whatever. I think that are the tools of the director or the ways that a director might sign their name and to hear him talking about, you know, set design, production design, costume design, building out like a thematic and consistent kind of way to see this whole thing that to me is direction, you know. And Katie is obviously like the creator of the show and a brilliant writer and I think brought her sensibility of kind of the Mike Schur sitcom era and molded it with some of the best elements of not mystery box television, but genre television.

B

Absolutely. I couldn't agree more.

A

For me, industry took the biggest swings, took the most chances, broke the most hearts, bloodied the most noses, ruined the most bank accounts. I think I will just never ever look at this show as anything less than among the best things that have come out this decade and what it's done with the characters, I think once we get done with it next year and take a step back and see like can you fucking believe when you go back to episode one and you see Yasmin and Harper on their first days at Pierpoint, where we leave them, and especially where we left them in this previous season, it's an unbelievable journey, and it still feels plausible, it still feels real, it still feels very, very current. And it's thrilling to look at, and

B

it's thrilling to watch separate and apart from. You know, I thought the season was incredible and had incredible highs and also had some, to my mind, lows. So it's in my top 10, but not my top five. But I think the way that I think about the show and the thing that fills me with the most excitement about the show, and this is recency bias, but I think Mickey and Conrad would appreciate this is when you watch as much World cup as I've been watching for the last few weeks, as we all have, hopefully, you know, especially

A

when you get Rojas.

B

Well, I'm listening purely in the Catalan feed. Yeah, the. My favorite thing is when the English announcers are calling the matches and, like, someone just immediately dribbles and shoots over the crossbar and they're like, you'd like to see a bit more cleverness, a bit more invention, a bit more optimism there, you know, when whoever has the ball. And that's what I think about when I think about industry, where I'm like, okay, they. They've. They've. They've got the ball. They never fail to try something.

A

They do not try to defend a one nothing lead.

B

They do not park the bus. No, they do not even have a.

A

And they could. You could do yet another season of crazy investments over here at Pierpoint and Eric swinging his bat on the floor,

B

you know, like, they do not have an emergency brake on the vehicle that they're driving. And what. What do we root for, you know, when we watch things? So I think that's unique and thrilling.

A

We didn't get to talk about the Star City finale together.

B

Excuse me. Beef erasure.

A

Well, I was just. I don't know.

B

I will go to Star City. I just want to say. Sorry, I'm acting like you were a vegan.

A

Yeah, go ahead. Go ahead and talk about beef.

B

No, I just. I just want to say again, like, my admiration for this season has already.

A

The industry's not in your top five. My bad.

B

Yeah, Yeah. I just think that Lee Jung Sin Sonny, who. Who created the show, like, is using contemporary television at such an elite level. And what I mean by that is, like, the Netflix model and the Netflix largesse and the auteur showrunner model to make something and like, the celebrity star machine in terms of who he's casting and who he has access to. And like, Phineas is doing the music, but to do it, to make something that is so such a tightrope walk of farce and searing emotional social drama that's about right now. And the way that we live through screens and internationally all at once, I find thrilling. I just thought that show was incredible.

A

Yeah, it's in my. It's on my. It's on your long list top 10. Yeah, but it's not. It's not in. It's not in my top 10.

B

I'm glad we didn't. I'm glad, though, you were gonna. I did want to talk Star City because we didn't get to talk about the finale. Your thoughts are not on the record.

A

They're. They're not. I think that my. My big takeaway was, like, the extent to which that functions as both a series and season finale. You know, I think obviously, there's final moments that suggest, like, you know, the story going forward. And obviously there's a timeline that for all mankind has laid out with several of the characters from Star City that suggest story to be told, yet to be told. I really, really, really, really want a second season. I would love to see it, but, you know, if you were just gonna do, like, a short novella about, you know, the Soviet side of this story, this would be the perfect one.

B

But don't you think there is too much. I know that you want it, so I'm not asking you to be devil's advocate here, but, like, because the show so brilliantly privileged the inner emotional life of characters versus, you know, the narcos, Wikipedia, even fake history model of just showing us cogs in the larger machine that, like, there's almost too much still left on the table to feel good about a resolute. Like, I think I. I want it. I know you're not arguing otherwise, but, like, I want the second season not because I need to know what happened with the Venus program, but more like these particular people at this moment in this fake history, what happened to them.

A

Yeah, I want to see what happens with Anastasia and Sasha. I want to see what happens with Erin. Yeah, absolutely.

B

I also want to say, because I got to talk to the showrunners, Matt and Ben, but I didn't. I don't think I get to talk too much specifically without them. And I did see someone saying the usual, like, oh, we just. We glaze the shows that the showrunners come on to talk about. And I don't.

A

It goes the opposite way, guys. We glaze the shows and then we ask the showrunners, because that makes us

B

interested in talking to them. I want to be really clear about something. Like, I didn't. We didn't invite them on. And then I watched the finale and it was like, oh, I guess I'll just dance around some stuff. Like, I fucking love that. When it came down to the decision to do we make the single most emotionally compelling finale possible, or do we listen to the bright boys in the science consulting department and say, like, oh, actually, Anastasia probably couldn't jump from orbit and land in Finland to rescue her arranged marriage husband? They said, fuck logic. We're going with our heart here. Like, that's what it was interesting to me. And so you could talk all you want about how the show does not have fealty to the historical record of Finlandization, where Finland sent people back who tried to come over from the Soviet Union. Or you could just be like, that's so sick. And it would also

A

maybe Finland's, like, relationship to Finlandization be different if Russia. If the Soviets had gotten to the moon. I mean, can't they explain anything away by having this ripple effect coming off of their moon landing?

B

Also, if you genuinely watch that show and you're like, this would be better if it was closer to the historical record or to the logistics of orbital space travel than, I don't know, touch grass, nerd.

A

Watch tv. I don't even know who we're talking to. But the entire act, the entire show is an act of suspension of disbelief. Yes, it's Soviets speaking in colloquial English and at points, like, acting way more like English people than probably Soviets.

B

Have you heard we often. Small sample size this. But, like, do you have any anecdotal experience in your life of people being like, oh, should I check that out? And then liking it, despite having some skepticism?

A

Star City specifically. Um, yes.

B

You've converted some people.

A

Yes.

B

Good.

A

Yeah, we, we, we.

B

We.

A

We converted Tracy Letts. Oh, yeah. I mean, I don't think he was skeptical. I just think he was like, I. I would never have thought to check this out were it not for your enthusiasm.

B

So how come he doesn't want to be third chair of this podcast?

A

I think you.

B

I police this side of the table too fiercely.

A

I think that there's room for one big, big personality on that side of the table. I would be interested to see the vibe between you two.

B

We get Along.

A

Yeah, no, you get along great. But I think, like, yeah, I'm Chris Paul, man. Everybody gets a shot.

B

Okay.

A

I don't need. I don't need to say what I think.

B

Famously, beloved teammate Chris Paul just celebrated in every locker room he's ever been in. Right.

A

He just demands a lot.

B

He gets it.

A

The Pit, I guess I've diminished here because of its consistency. I got excited about Windows Bay. I get excited about Star City. I think industry just took me places that I never would have guessed it would have at the beginning of the season. The Pit essentially iterated on its first season, did the very wise thing of not having. It didn't have a mass shooting. It didn't have, like, a mass casualty event. It was just like, this was a very hard day. This is about doctors needing their own medicine, you know, And I thought it was. I thought it was remarkable. And especially as the last few episodes, I thought were extraordinary.

B

Yeah.

A

It's no criticism that it's at fourth here. It's just where it wound up. Was it at fourth for you?

B

We have the same top five, except

A

for Night of the Seven Kingdoms. I would love to know if there was any influence on this season of House of the Dragon by Night of the Seven Kingdoms. I'm sure that's not how TV production works, where I'm sure they were basically done. House of the Dragon by the time Night of the Seven Kingdoms was airing.

B

I think they overlap. They don't film in the same place. House of the Dragon films at my beloved Leaveston Studios near scenic Watford, England. And I think Night of the Seven Kingdoms was back in Belfast, if I'm not mistaken. Yeah, I actually think. And I haven't rewatched since it aired earlier in the year, but I feel like Night of the Seven Kingdoms, despite getting Emmy attention and being nominated for best drama series in its first season, is almost underrated. And I feel even more impressed by its achievement in the light of this season of House of the Dragon. I'm not trying to, like, rage bait or pit them against each other, but

A

it's just you and me, man. You know? Don't worry about that.

B

But now Tracy's listening, and he's, like, leaning in, you know what I mean? And I want him to respect this take. We didn't really talk about it. It's totally fine. I don't have a lot to add to the conversation about this week's House of the Dragon episode, but I was noticing the way that it feels in ways good and frankly bad that the show has so clearly ventured out beyond the pier, so to speak. Like, whether it's the lack of George Martin or whether it's the. Like a.

A

You mean off the text?

B

Not just the text, but just like this.

A

It's still relatively, like, close to it.

B

Yeah. I just have no. Like, taking the. Making the aesthetic decision to do the Rhaenyra POV episode was a bold swing that I didn't know was in its playbook. And that was exciting to see. And we were joking to, like, casting. Casting. What's his name, the American guy? Dan. I keep. When you say, like, Dan Fogelberg as Fogler. Fogler. Sorry. Yes. As Torrin, the new Master of Coin. Like, these are some. These feel like aesthetic choices that are outside of what I would have expected.

A

It sort of breaks from the orthodoxy of the first two seasons or kind

B

of the template that was set by Game of Thrones. And remember, one of the weirdest things about House of the Dragon is that it has the same theme music. It is so intent on telling you, it's Sunday. Remember what it feels like. Let's get back to that. This week's episode was fucking interminable. But it also had, like, these moments. Jesus Christ. But, like, I turned it on after England, and it was just like watching those last 10 minutes again for two hours. There's the scenes inside of Tumbleton where it's just like, oh, Martha Stewart's Westeros, where the color palette is totally different. And I have wanted things like that on the show, but it feels so like. I understand why often production design on Westerosi shows have been conservative, because it is hard to say we've always done it this way, but what if we did this? It is challenging. Sure, Knight of the Seven Kingdoms felt effortless in the way it was like, no, no, it's gonna be this now. And I'm not saying it was as bold of a turn as even some of the decisions scene to scene in House of the Dragon this year, but it launched itself and asserted itself as its own thing so quickly that I'm very impressed by it.

A

I greatly prefer this version of this story where we're getting outside of the essentially the two family castles. I was actually curious whether or not there's a term or if there is an exercise when you're in a writer's room where you're kind of diagramming how these are the two main characters. And then from these two characters, these two characters will come, and then from these two. Not necessarily like, they begat them, but how, you know, now that we've got like Ormund and, you know, Aegon and Larys are over here and we've got like all these different tones and all these different, like, kind of aims that these characters may have what they want out of all of this. And, you know, that has come at the expense maybe of the Valyrian family tree where I think Corlys has been sidelined since his. You know, if you're not going to mint my kids, then you can go fuck yourself. Like, we haven't had as much of him. But I really enjoy. I am enjoying this version of this show much more than the first two seasons.

B

Yeah, without question. I just think that, like, everything about the show, including my own reactions to it, feel very reactive and still like in the light of what we are used to or what we've come to expect or what we've enjoyed before from this type of storytelling or this specific IP world where Night of the Seven Kingdoms was like, hey, man, it's just a tournament. Let's chill out.

A

Yeah, right.

B

Let's just. And like, I don't remember the last time it had been since Game of Thrones, honestly, where I was like, I just fucking love this new character. I'm psyched. This is awesome. Let's just hang out here.

A

This was a new character that you loved.

B

Many specifically. I was thinking about what's his name? I'm not gonna remember all these people's names.

A

The Baratheon. The guy who.

B

Daniel Ings.

A

Yeah, Daniel Ings. I bet that you and I are gonna have some variants in our bottom five.

B

Great.

A

I want to hear yours.

B

You want me to go 6 to 10 or 10 to 6?

A

6 to 10.

B

6 to 10.

A

Let's keep going the same direction.

B

NBC's Rise and Fall of Reggie Dinkins.

A

Great pick.

B

7. HBO's Industry. 8. The show that I'm most excited to talk to you about today, HBO's the Dark Wizard.

A

Love you. Yeah, I do the work.

B

Slowly, but I do the work.

A

I never expected you to watch it. I was just like, this is great. Check it out. If you. If you miss 100 foot wave.

B

But you're also like, check it out if you like things that are great. Yeah, and I did. I like things that are great. Number nine, the Disney Corporation's Wonder man.

A

I have that on my long list.

B

And then I put the agency at number 10. Only because I haven't finished it. And it could be a. It could be a grower still, but Agency Season two. But just in terms of like my engagement with It. It deserved a spot.

A

My number six is the Bear. Look at you. Yeah, the bear. I think those last two episodes make the beginning of the season a little bit more cohesive to me. I think if you look at it in totality with Gary, the standalone episode with Bernthal and Evan Moss, backrack, between Gary, between moments in the first few episodes of the final season, and then specifically episodes seven and eight, I just think it was a wonderful send off. And I really, I think perhaps there's some sentiment, but I also really admire how the visual style of the show evolved. The stillness in some ways that it achieves in the last season compared to the frenetic nature of the first season. And I thought that there were some really beautiful performances, specifically from Bachrach in this final season.

B

He's amazing. I do think you're right to highlight something that I think is probably gonna be overlooked a little bit, which is for all of the, I think, fair criticism the bear has gotten in recent seasons of, like, story narrative, character paralysis. I think it's important to differentiate that from the observation that the creative team did clearly look at this as an opportunity to do something different in terms of the filmmaking.

A

Yes.

B

Like we are going to do a season that is going to be this and it will feel distinct in the terms of, like, how much time passes, the music choices, the camera movement and all that. That you can't just say it was more of the same in that regard.

A

I also wonder whether time will be a little bit kinder to this series if you binge it, if you rediscover it, if you rewatch it. I don't know in our landscape now if that's something people are doing with shows of recent vintage like this, but I do think that looked at as a whole, as a total meal, it's going to be a better experience than. Is it. Are they going to get out of this kitchen? Or is like, he going to quit? Is what, like what's going to happen next? Like, you know, I think now that I've seen the entire thing, I appreciate it more.

B

I think that's really interesting because the show is about time. I mean, two seasons were just about a ticking clock, and when it is now, it has now been set free from the bounds of the Mad Titan Kronos and just wanted to bring it back to the Odyssey if I could. And it may have a different. It may be a different experience.

A

Yeah, we can talk about Dark wizard in a second. It's my number seven.

B

Nice.

A

Number eight. Shorzy, as usual, and number nine, the Agency. Almost done that been taken away. Thought this season has been excellent pacing wise, much improved over the first one I think also like, you know, as is the case with the Bureau, you see these supporting characters become. They could have their own show. They could have. They have. There are as novels worth of interesting material for these various supporting characters. So the Bear, Dark Wizard, Shorzy the Agency and my last one is something very bad is going to happen.

B

The I wondered if that was going to make it happen.

A

Netflix series about a cursed woman. And I thought that was great. And a really interesting kind of partner show to Widow's Bay in that it was trying to play with horror over like a long form story, which is one of the most difficult things to do.

B

Yeah, I couldn't. I watched the first episode and admired it and couldn't. Couldn't do it because of just the ratio. I thought it was very cool and it was very visually compelling. And as far as my limited. Between my fingers peeking out knowledge of horror, I was like, oh, she's nailing it.

A

Yeah.

B

But it just wasn't leavened with the comedy nor should it have been. It's its own show. But that was a bridge too far for me.

A

There's a lot of bleeding out of their eyes. Let's talk a little bit about in depth about Dark Wizard. What prompted you to revisit this? Yeah, did you watch the first episode?

B

No, I never. I.

A

What prompted you to turn it on?

B

Well, a couple things. You. I mean sincerely, you were like, it's really good. Yeah, I. My reasons for not engaging with it were really stupid and pithy, which was. I was like, I think I've given enough of my time to Wizards Name Potter on the HBO network recently. Which was a killer text to send once.

A

Did you send it to me?

B

You were among the recipients. You know, I sometimes, sometimes recycle material. I had no reason not to do it other than just like time and because it didn't feel the urgency of scripted or whatever. And then. Yeah, when I was traveling I was like, there are four episodes of this and it's probably, you know. You know, there's a certain way that you can engage with a documentary that is like perfect for airplanes.

A

Yes.

B

So it was where you get off

A

the plane and you're like, I am an expert in this subject. Yes.

B

I can't wait to tell everyone. Yeah. Also it's good. It was kind of undercut by the fact that I did have working WI fi on this airplane. But there is like a really Interesting. Like Faraday, Cage of the Brain. That happens when you start watching a documentary in which you are blessedly ignorant of everything in which you're like, now I can't use Google anymore because what if I accidentally find out what happens? So before we can we do like a few minutes of table setting? Because I want to just try to get people to watch it who happens and then we could do some spoilers.

A

This is a four part docu series directed by Peter Mortimer and Nick Rosen who have made several films and I think some other series about alpinists, you know about. About mountain climbers. They made a film called the Alpinist that you can watch on Peacock, which is extraordinary. And I think one thing that's sort of this in the the Dark wizard follows a man named Dean Potter who is an infamous climber from the late 90s and early 2000s. Kind of a contemporary of Alex Honnold. And Potter sort of made Yosemite and the valleys below the mountains and El Cap and all the famous mountains in Yosemite his playground. And was kind of a punk rock icon of mountain climbing as it entered the mainstream consciousness through the proliferation of video cameras and then more and more high end cameras that could capture that kind of action. And he was also basically the face of Patagonia as it became more than just like the stuff you wore when you were camping. It was like a lifestyle brand as well. And I think was, you know, featured in several photographic campaigns for Patagonia. He is defined by his boundary pushing. You know, he was one of the people who was like, I can go climbing with a parachute so that if I fall.

B

He invented this.

A

Yes. Like he brought parachutes with him while he would.

B

Because he's such a wild thrill seeker who referred to. I didn't realize this was a phrase, the death consequence as a potential outcome for his activities and what that does to you and to your mind. He was just chasing highs. And he himself was like very clearly and admittedly bipolar and had mental health struggles and was always pushing and so went from free soloing at an absurd unprecedented degree to BASE jumping to then realizing he could combine them into something he quite cleverly and clearly, you know, healthily called freebasing.

A

Yes.

B

Where you could free solo places and if you fell you could just pull your chute.

A

Yeah.

B

And then started doing wingsuit flying, which

A

is essentially like human flight. You know, it's jumping off a mountain

B

to fly in a suit.

A

I would say just for people who haven't checked this out and we could talk A little bit more in depth about it in a second with a spoiler warning. The thing that blows my mind almost as much as what Potter does is the fact that they were able to capture this stuff, all of it. Because I imagine as this show goes on, you know, I don't know if drone technology is. It doesn't seem like it become widespread, but you basically have Potter like was compulsively documented everything in his life. If he didn't have a camera crew with him, he had his buddy filming him.

B

Sweet winky.

A

Yeah. And so those guys would basically have rope climbs next to him that would go up or maybe they would get taken to the top of a, of a peak and then they would rappel down to film Potter coming up. But the footage in the show is extraordinary and it's a similar sensation you get from your watching Hundred Foot Wave. Although a lot of that I think is done with drones where you're like, how the hell am I getting like this swooping shot of this guy going down a titular 100 foot wave? The same thing is going on in Dark wizard where you're just like, I just can't believe there was a camera there when this guy fell off a mountain and threw a parachute up in the air. I mean, it's unreal to watch.

B

And the omnipresence of the cameras and the documentation and the show does a really beautiful job with Potter's journals and drawings and animating them. And just the outrageous 247 seemingly access to his mind as well as his actions also speaks to one of the really compelling tensions of the show, which is he believed what he was doing was art. He believed what he was doing is spirituality. And he had, like many people who believe those things in the vice grip of contemporary life, had a very challenging relationship to publicity, to profit, to partnerships and participation. And that. So the fact that he's just like, I am a private person communing with nature, but I must be. All of this must be documented is the central tension. And some of the most compelling parts of the series on an emotional level are the central tension between Potter being like deeply Gen X and then everyone else younger than him.

A

Yeah.

B

And you watch him trying to navigate this just like middle finger, anti authoritarianism, spiritual lifestyle. And then Alex Honnold shows up on the scene and he's roughly a decade younger. I think he's like eight or nine years younger. And he's like an IT guy. He has no fear, he has no qualms about turning free climbing, free soloing, El Cap into a Squarespace ad. And the relationship that each of them have to each other, but also to their work and also to their own minds is so fascinating.

A

Well, it's just, it's unbelievable. It's the, it's, it's. And it can be applied to so many different. That relationship and their different approaches to mountain climbing can be applied to so many different arenas of life where Potter labors over and stresses over and frets over, like, how am I going to climb this? I could die. Like, it's not the right time yet. It's not. You know, he's legitimately, he's legitimately scared. But I think he's also participating in a narrative about like a guy facing a great challenge and Honolulu's like, I fucking climbed it. I climbed it. I looked like I looked at it and then I just climbed up it, you know, like, and it, and it. Not only is it like drives Potter nuts because this guy keeps beating him. Two things that he wanted to do, but he's almost challenging the very idea that one individual could claim ownership over a mountain or over a climb. Like how it's like, if you want to beat me, beat me. Otherwise, like, get out of my way. And it's not that, you know, I love all of that. I love the social subculture of Yosemite and guys living in the valley and guys hanging out there year round and getting to know the Rangers and what they eat and like the stews that they eat and kind of like the. Not dumpster diving but the way they'll be like, oh, you can go over here to pick up good wi Fi or you can eat, you know that you sometimes like, people leave food behind here and you can pick it up and stuff like that. All fascinating. I think obviously to talk any more in depth about the show, one thing before spoilers, okay?

B

Invariably, if we are watching either in person or more often in our own respective Faraday cages sporting events, I will ask or text. Obviously none of us play professional football, but if we did, what position do you think you would enjoy doing? Or I'll ask you about, we're watching World Cup. I'm better to be good at basketball or be good at soccer for one day. And either way, it's part of the fantasy of these people are the best at doing something that looks fun or must feel great to be able to do. And that is part of the thrill. I will say that free soloing has jumped above 100 foot wave surfing as the thing I have no interest in ever doing. And Feel no spiritual connection to whatsoever. It is fucking terrifying.

A

I think it's incredibly healthy in life to have things you like to look at. Sure, yeah. Not everything needs to be a participation thing, and I don't have any interest in doing either of those things. But I realize that, like, I really love watching people, like, accomplish great feats in nature. I mean, true. It's just, it. It's a great use of the endless libraries of content to have more and more exciting nature documentaries. There is. Okay, so here, we'll put a little pin in this.

B

Yeah.

A

We'll do a little spoiler and we'll spoil a bit of Dark Wizard.

B

Right.

A

It's been out for a while, so maybe people have gotten a chance to see it. And I think also this is in general, if you Google Dean Potter, you'll see that he passed away in 2015. He died while doing one of these

B

free base jumps, the way he was doing the flying.

A

The flying? Yeah, in Yosemite. Ethically and journalistically, they make a decision in this series similar to the one. I can't remember the name of it, but there was a free diving documentary about a woman who, you know, would do these free dives very deep into the ocean and come back up and there's all these like, you know, depressurization and, you know, making sure you can make to hear and hear and how long can you hold your breath? And in a similar way, the. The documentary keeps up the appearance that this person may be alive. Like, the way that they frame the interviews, like, it's not a shock. But if you don't Google, you'll be like, ah, this person died.

B

I mean, I would say it was. It's pretty clear to me that he is not participating in the documentary and that the access in the present tense. Well, and the fact that they have unfettered access to his private journals and things suggests. But so I was in that fugue state because I did the first two on one flight and then a few days later I did the other ones. And so I was stuck. I knew that he was.

A

I wasn't sure. I can't remember if you texted me, were like, is Dean Potter still out there?

B

I did not. I did not. Does sound like me, but I didn't in this case. But holding that knowledge and then wondering, you know, simultaneously which of these things is going to kill him. Because it could be almost anything that he's doing in any of the episodes. And then how is it in the fabric of the documentary? Because the documentary is not like A. It's not like a, you know, the cup game when you're getting scammed on the street, where it's like they're just trying to reveal something to you. It's actually like trying to tell you a story about risk and adventure and mental health and male friendship.

A

I think that there's, like, an obvious. They made a narrative decision not to say that he dies in the first episode, and they do it to create a sense of tension rather than a sense of tragedy. It is obviously tragic what happened, but you can say in the beginning that this guy was a divisive and beloved figure in this community and was constantly pushing. And what this show is about or what this story is about is about people who willingly take their life in their hands and what happens when one thing goes wrong and what happened, Whether or not. Whether or not, like, that's an acceptable sort of consequence of a hobby, essentially. You know, like, it can be a lifestyle. It can be something that brings you closer to kind of an epiphany or a state of spiritual nirvana, but it still is a hobby, you know? You know, like, yeah, and you can die doing it.

B

And one of the most touching and affecting and surprising turns in the documentary is that, although I don't think it's surprising for people who are paying attention to this more as a story of mental health or addiction, which I think tends to follow a similar pattern, which is that in the fourth episode, the way it's. But also essentially in the last act of his life, he had a moment of calm and he had a moment of a connection with a partner, this woman Jen, who he had worked with before at Patagonia, whom he reconnected with her children and the role that he played in their life. And then out of nowhere, he gets a fucking dog who becomes his best friend and starts rappelling around the world and base jumping with him.

A

A lot of comments about whether or not that was a humane thing to do with the dog.

B

Dog seems psyched.

A

Dog did seem psyched. Yeah.

B

Dog seems psychedelic, only to be pulled back in by the old demons. Among them are ego, about being able to do more than other people or to be challenged by younger people. And it's really affecting the way that story is told. I think that, like, they make such smart and really compelling editorial decisions, which is lingering on. Not just the ways that Dean Potter's psychology hurt the people around him, which is a familiar story. Again, anytime you watch Greatness, there's always the people who get left behind, but really underscoring how the people in his wake loved him, like profoundly in ways that could never be matched. And so there's a lot of, like, there's a lot of middle aged men crying in the last part, which, you know, who among us. I thought that was really, really affecting in that. There's an incredible moment in the last one where one of the guys who got really hurt by Dean and broke off with him years before breaks down and basically is like, calls out to someone behind the camera and we realize that someone working on the show is one of the other guys. And he's like, can you say something? He's like, you're being a pansy. And then he comes over and they hug each other. And I'm like, what was left in this guy's wake is present.

A

Sure.

B

The other thing I really wanted to say was the last 20 minutes of the third episode, maybe we don't do this, but if we were doing like scenes of the year or sequences of the year. China.

A

Yeah.

B

It is so fucking insane and so powerful and depressing and intense. Basically what happens is at a very low point in his life and career before he kind of briefly resurfaced as a family guy and has just dating someone who took her life on his property. And at a very, very low point, isolated from everyone except good old Winky, Dean is offered the chance to go basically put on a show on live television.

A

Chinese state television.

B

Chinese state television where they pay him $200,000 to do a big base jump and then do a, like a rope line.

A

A wire walk.

B

Yeah, a wire walk. And he's there. And the conditions aren't. It's not just that the conditions aren't ideal or are unfamiliar. It's that it's the opposite of everything he's been doing up to this point where he's surrounded and crowded and there's V and everything that would be distracting to anyone, but particularly to someone who's like a soul surfer of this shit. And there's all this footage of him trying to do this walk first, yelling at everyone for putting up a net, saying, I'm not a circus performer. I don't do this shit with a net. Take the net away so that there is a death consequence.

A

Walking above a canyon. Yeah.

B

And the day before he's practicing with a tether, which isn't super cool either because basically he's walking and then will fall and has to catch and like spins around it. And the cameras are watching him do this and fail and fail and fail. And he doesn't make it very far at all. And the narration is telling us that, like, even if he made it to the middle, it would be harder than anything he'd ever done. Cause it's wobbling. Cause it's farther.

A

Yeah.

B

And then that night, he yells at Winky and tells him he's worthless for not bringing, and this is a direct quote, butt weed, which is apparently the weed you bring to China by storing it within your body cavity.

A

Yes.

B

Winky did not do that.

A

Winky is his photographer and kind of like.

B

He's kind of, like, older, but who loves him? And then the next day, the cameras are there and there is no net. And he has not been able to do this with a tether. And he does it, and at the end, he collapses, weeping onto these Chinese rocks. And, like, the Chinese announcers are like. It's translated with the subtitles are like, Mr. Potter is very emotional. This is just an incredibly visceral and horrifying encapsulation of what the world does to all of us, to some small degree, but particularly to this guy who, whether simplistically or not and clearly, ruinously, kind of believed in his own mythology. Mythology, that's the word.

A

And he's. And he's. That's a great encapsulation of all of his best and worst impulses. Like, he. There is a degree of an entertainer in him, you know, but there is also a degree of, like, a solitary artist. How do you. How do you make those two things converge on Chinese state television, you know?

B

And how do you define your life if it's only by risking death?

A

Yeah. And also, like, you're doing something where you're responsible for other people, and it's like, if you're going to essentially, like, the. Your wrinkle, the thing you bring to the game is, I might die. Like, that's dangerous for other people, and it's also dangerous for the people who love you. It's an extraordinary show.

B

It was awesome.

A

It was awesome. I'm glad you checked it out.

B

Thank you for your recommendation. See, I'm not just a co host. I'm also a beneficiary.

A

Should we do a little bit of After Dark about the World cup before we get out here?

B

Yes. And do you want me to save My Sugar Season 2 takes till next week.

A

How many did you watch? I just watched one.

B

I just. I just watched one, man. I, I, you know, I'm just like,

A

did you stroke out?

B

The light just went out.

A

Do you know?

B

You know, my review is, honestly, I could have Just do you know the part, you know.

A

You know, it's worth pointing back the curtain is that he and I were taught. Andy and I were talking about, like, what to talk about on this episode. And, you know, Lucky, the new Apple show, Sugar, is back. And we both were like, I don't want to be down on a first episode of anything right now.

B

It just doesn't feel good. Like, not after England lost. No, but I did. I mean, I watched. I did watch the first part of the first episode of Lucky. And one of my favorite things about it is that it 1000%. I have no inside knowledge. But, like, clearly it started with a seen and then said X months earlier. But someone at Apple got the note that we're all sick of that. So it just took the chiron away.

A

Like, oh, so it's just a flashback without telling you what's happening.

B

Yeah.

A

Cool.

B

But it still was like, it'll be more exciting soon, don't worry. Yeah. But yes, we didn't want to be negative, but, like, there's something about Sugar. Cause it's like, every few days I'm like, there's an L A Noire show with Colin Farrell and he looks great in suits and we love him, and I can't quite kick it. And my review of it ultimately is like that scene from the end of episode three of Succession Season four where they're at the bar in New York City and Logan says, I love you, but you're not serious people. Yeah, that's my review of Sugar. It is such, like, if we still had, like, if I still was a participant in the website and was, like, writing things, I would probably devote way too much time writing about this show because it is an exemplar of, like. Like, what are we doing? Because Colin Farrell being a private detective in LA with Apple's budget is like, let's do it.

A

And shooting in la, right? Yeah. With most of the Breaking Bad cast and production team. Yeah. Well.

B

And, like, did so many things for season two that I'm like, that I admire. Like, what they've done with the cast and, like, just looking at the people they've added. Added for season two are actors we really like.

A

Tony Dalton.

B

Tony Dalton. Jin Hannah, Sasha Calle, Shea Wiggum. Like, that's awesome. And. But as many people know, and I'm sorry for the spoiler, it is an L A Noire show that is revealed that our main character is also an alien. An alien who understands the world through old films. So it does the Dream on in which every so often it cuts to the movie that the scene is aping, which is cool when Fernando Morales is doing it in the pilot. And then just fucking exhausting in season two, episode one, where you're shooting pool and it's showing scenes of, like, the Hustler. What's truly amazing, and I do feel like people who are studying how TV gets made these days about this season, is that the opening before the first eight minutes of season two is the most impressive yada yada I've maybe ever seen. In which Sam Catelyn, who used to work on the Vince Gilligan universe and worked on Severance briefly, is now fully running the show after coming on later, I think, in season one. And so the first eight minutes are like, remember all that shit about all the other aliens and his hunt for his alien sister and the alien brother who ran off with the knowledge of her existence? Give me eight minutes. Give me fucking eight minutes in a hotel room in Bangkok, and we'll just be a detective show, I promise.

A

Okay?

B

And it almost gets there so that once he's finally back and investigating, like, Boxer Brothers in Koreatown, I'm like, okay. And it leans into other things. I'm like, I don't care where this alien gets his money and he buys, like, Hemingway's house in the Hollywood Hills. I'm like, let's do that.

A

Yeah.

B

But because it is a contemporary TV show, and it just feels this fealty to, like. Because there must be some people who are watching it being like, look, I don't know about detectives, but I fucking love aliens. There is this. It just feels the need to, like, try to touch this third or at this point, fourth rail, in which case he's like, at the end of this beginning of. He's beginning a new investigation. And at the end of the episode, he's like, maybe more of my brothers are still out there. And he sends out, like, an alien distress signal. I'm like, just, nobody cares.

A

Here's what sugar reminds me of. Yes. It's not. It reminds me of. Because it's never happened, but it would almost be like, you go to a California eatery.

B

Yeah, sure.

A

And somebody's just like, sir, you ordered, and we brought you the branzino. And you're like, I love branzino. And they're like, and it's the branzino. Would you. Would you like some Parmesan with it? And you're like, absolutely not. Yeah, those two things shouldn't go together. Like, we've also roasted some parmesan inside the branzino, you know.

B

Would you like to tell us about how. Would you like us to tell you about how we do things here?

A

Yeah. And it's. We put cheese inside of a roasted fish. You can't get it out. You know what I mean?

B

You can't get it out.

A

Now you're. Now you're stuck with these two flavors that have been separated for a reason and are now brought together. And there are probably. There is probably a pretty cool hour and 45 minute detective movie from 1997 about an alien. And I. And I think it could have worked. And I admire Colin Farrell for just trying stuff, but this was always like. It's in fact, like you cannot separate it.

B

Yes.

A

And if you're fully in it. And so I just. And for that reason, I'm out.

B

Serialization. Serialization. Intense. Canonical serialization is the like de facto storytelling model of our time. And it is also kind of the anchor and the curse.

A

Yeah.

B

Because just start it over would be better. Just start it in the right place is so crucial. But much like I am sure that there are a lot.

A

It would have been better if he wakes up and is like, God, it was a weird dream about me being an alien. Now let's be a detective.

B

There's a. I imagine right now there's some big brains who are dispatched to Atlanta to the set of Men of Tomorrow being like, so Supergirl rejected soundly. How do we now rework this movie to pick up the threads that people liked but not the ones they didn't like? And how do we edit Lobo out of this? Or reduce Milialka? Whatever. They're always trying to backfill and front fill at the same time instead of telling the story. And the other sin is, and I mean no disrespect to all the lovely, talented people who must have worked on the show. If you're gonna be a noir, you gotta get some crackling dialogue. You can't just cosplay it. And there's a scene in this episode where Colin Farrell, who looks the part, he's incredible. Beautiful suit, beautiful car. And he's raising a cocktail in a bar and he's some, you know, like, smoky conversation with a woman. And this is the dialogue. Okay, unpack this for me. She says, I'm Charlotte. And he says, like the web. And she says, like the spider's web.

A

What other web?

B

What other web is it the worldwide fucking web. What other web? What was that?

A

I mean, I didn't think you were gonna do anything on Sugar. You have, like, a whole presentation here. This is amazing.

B

What's the difference? So when she says, he's like a spider's web, which I guess is an effective tool to capture prey, and she's like, no, no. I'm like, the web that writes messages so a pig will live. And he's like, oh, I see how that's going to be relevant, because I'm a farmer. Do you know?

A

Like, did he say that?

B

No, but I'm trying to make it make sense.

A

I won't be watching. Thank you. You saved me some time.

B

I just want things to be good, man.

A

I know. And this is a passion project for you, you know, I get it. Did. Did you have any observations about the World cup you'd like to share?

B

Well, I did say. I did say in our text thread yesterday with our. Our English mate Joe that, like, now I do. I feel like now I can apply for citizenship. Like, I already have spent a lot of time there and do enjoy a piece of steamed fish and then a night at the pub having a small beer. Sorry, application rejected. I'm just saying that, like, I did feel like this was my first full World cup supporting the Three Lions. And, like, what would you have confronted

A

with Liam Gallagher's adage about we don't go out for one? If I'm going out, we're having hundreds.

B

I have had drinks with Conrad K. Like, I. My drinks. I've watched him have drinks. You know, I confronted it every day along with my mortality and the heat death of my liver when I was there. I'm not good at that anymore, but.

A

So watching England get its heart torn out on international television prepares you for your inevitable migration?

B

No, it just made me feel like I'd earned it more because, you know, as a. As a lifelong fan of my beloved Tottenham Hotspur, like, you know, we had a. We had a rough spell recently, but we're poised to come back stronger than ever thanks to some crucial international signings.

A

You are the sugar of being a Tottenham fan. Yeah. You're like, I'm wives on this planet.

B

Ye. I totally am.

A

I read a lot of the athletic articles, and now I'm ready to go.

B

Well, in my defense.

A

And then we cut to, like, famous Gareth Bale goals.

B

In my defense. I did. I've spent a lot of time in London recently, and I've had. I have lovely friends across the aisle. Both sides of the aisle.

A

Both sides of the North London aisle.

B

Well, and just across the Premier League in English football generally. And I must say that culturally and emotionally, I really, really connected with the absolute abject misery and self loathing of Tottenham fans, especially over the last season.

A

I assure you, all 20 clubs feel the exact same way about themselves.

B

I didn't feel right. I just felt like I was vibing with these friends in particular and where they were in their relationship to sport. And I also thought. I thought two things and I'll share them. Just usually just us doormyce.

A

Just us alien detectives.

B

Just us alien fucking podcasters. One was, this is where I take my skin off. Yeah. But underneath it, it's just Liverpool red. It's Bill, he's hosting this podcast. He wouldn't put up with his shit. That I did feel like some sort of perverse sports pride of like joining a team I was committing as they were getting relegated. I was like, this would be a good argument. I'm okay with this. That even if we have to fight our way back to the Premier League, like, that's fine. So I did feel like that was a good choice. That was not front running. And yet secretly my next step was realizing, you know, because we finally got rid of, you know, the money manager who was really dragging the squad down

A

with his Daniel Levy.

B

Well, I knew that. I just didn't want to embarrass you. Yeah. With his, you know, his little bit of a skinflint, you know, like, you wouldn't pay more than £100 for a transfer.

A

You drove a hard bargain.

B

That's right. So to join a team now that they're like, I guess we better spend and buy everybody.

A

Yes.

B

Is a really good time to become a fan.

A

It is. If it blows up, you will be insolvent. But who among.

B

I mean, that's all of us. I also did feel like it was important to throw myself across the landmine of this club's, I would say, complicated relationship to Judaism. You know, like in their fan base and some of the chants and some of the. I was like, I think this is a dialogue that could benefit from my presence.

A

Are you excited to engage with people about it?

B

Thrilled. Especially online. Yeah, I think it'll be good.

A

I think that, you know, if you thought tv, Internet was annoying, wait till you fucking get a load of this.

B

But do you think generally, like, I mean, you did share a lot of, I thought, quite smart thoughts about England's failed strategy yesterday, but as a longer and actually credentialed football fan, is there anything you would like to share about England's flameout and my burgeoning attempt? I mean, every four years I'm like, I'm going to get really into club soccer.

A

I want to know how. How accountable you want me to keep you. How do you want me to hold you accountable for this. This new passion of yours? Like, do you want me to be like, hey, man, at 11am, Tottenham's playing Everton.

B

Yes.

A

On Peacock.

B

That would be good for both of us because you hate Everton and you'll.

A

I don't like Everton, but, like, I just want to know, like, is this something where you're, like, you want me to, you know, measure you as you. As you go along, or is it just, like, let you have your experience?

B

I mean, I think that. No, I want. I want. I want to be held accountable.

A

Okay. Because I don't have children, so it's okay for me to watch stuff whenever.

B

To be fair, maybe it's just, like, accrued hours, but, like, so far you haven't questioned my 76ers fandom bona fides, even though I don't really watch the games.

A

Well, I don't really think you super love watching sports. I think they stress you out. I think you love following sports.

B

I have, but yet. Well, the World cup, maybe because of the lack of, like, decades of deep, emotional, parasocial fuckery.

A

Yeah.

B

Has just been a pure joy.

A

And you've never come out one side or the other on the Falklands either.

B

Well, that's right. I'm like, let. Let the voters of Maine decide that one, too. Throw that one on the fire for them. I would like to be held accountable. I am excited. Every four years, I do say some version of, like, now is the time to just really become a dedicated Premier League fan. And then I run up against the realities of life and time zones. But I think it's. I think I'm. I think I'm ready.

A

I'll say this about yesterday's match.

B

Yeah. Fuck, yeah.

A

It sucked also when Lotaro Martinez scored the winner.

B

Yeah.

A

The reaction of the Argentinian players. Yeah, is. Is. Is the. The plunger going into the vein. That is what it is all about. Like.

B

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

A

It's a. It's a celebration, but it's like a connection with their fans. And it's also like an act that is unique in sports, I think, like scoring a goal for your national team to win a match of that consequence.

B

Yeah.

A

It blows my mind every time it happens. And it happens every, you know, couple months, every couple years, like, whatever the. In a premier, a Champions League match, you'll see something and you're just like, holy. I can't believe like 80,000 people are having like an absolute, like out of body experience. The guys on the field are the same people as the people in the stands. Like, it just feels like that is, that is something that I chase all the time with this sport. It's why I will never quit it. And it's why for as much of like, you know, a secondary market ticket hiking, you know, festival that you could see the World cup as, it's still like, unlike anything else. And I was talking to Ian about this when I was just like, you know, we were, we were talking about our buddies at Bad Brother and, and Nick at the bar, who is in Philadelphia during the group stages, was like, dude, just like some nights, like 25 Ecuadorians would just come and hang out. You know, it's like that never happens. That's not. There's not like a normal experience where people travel like this and people go to support their countries and their, and their sides like this. And it's, it's really astonishing. So on the one hand, like, while I don't love that Argentina team, like, watching them win in some way was like, why I also love the sport.

B

Yes.

A

The other fascination about yesterday is that they have had. I've watched multiple generations at this point of the England national team.

B

Yeah, yeah.

A

And several managers. And there is something so deeply interesting about whether or not there is like an inherent characteristic in the English football player specifically that is like, I can't really. I can't imagine a success too big, you know, like, whether they, whether they actually do start freaking out if.

B

If it looks like they're gonna win. Yeah.

A

Yeah. And in some ways they would have been better off going down one nothing, you know?

B

Yeah. That fits the narrative because they could have just been like classic international underdogs.

A

We're going out on our shields.

B

Yeah.

A

And we're gonna play play football and we're gonna run at these guys and we're gonna go for it, you know, and that instead they kind of accidentally seeded that role to the Argentinians. And it was, it was a weird match, weird first half, people kicking the shit out of each other and then just like, bang, bang, bang, and it's over. And I was like, oh, that was a month.

B

And I think I have not, I certainly have not earned my place at the commentators table, but I think even I shot a WhatsApp.

A

Being like this seems like the wrong strategy.

B

I do think they should play offense.

A

You don't score one touchdown and go, okay. Prevent defense.

B

I mean, there are teams that have Done that, sure.

A

Yeah.

B

But doesn't seem like a winning strategy. What would your. Not to shine too bright a light on it, but what do you think your father would have thought about England going to defeat due to the strategical maneuverings of a German?

A

I don't want to comment on how my father would have felt about that specific thing. Yeah. I mean, who knows, Maybe he would have evolved a lot in the last 10 years.

B

You know, like old wounds would have healed.

A

Yeah. You know, like after Brexit, he would have been like, no, we're all part of one European family. But like he had some resentment for the Germans. Sure earned.

B

Yeah. For his time.

A

Yeah.

B

The world has moved on. But now, speaking of moving on, you know, that is why I reclaim my Spanish heritage. Because. Because. Because as a fan of Pedro Poro, who of course has played right back for my beloved spurs since 2022, I want him to be.

A

Is that in your notes app?

B

No, that's just in my brain app.

A

Yeah.

B

That's something I've known for, I want to say days, maybe hours. And it just feels good to be at least rooting for one of my guys, you know, in the final.

A

I'm picking Spain for the final, even

B

though I believe McAllister plays for Liverpool. Right.

A

That's okay. Victor Munoz, a winger that Liverpool just bought, is a Spanish player.

B

I know. Tell the camera. I know.

A

Thank you to Kai, Kaia and Sarah for recording us, producing us, filming us today, making us look good, making us look great. And we'll be back on Monday. Hot D. Sure. What else? Maybe you'll have seen the Odyssey, who knows?

B

I would like to, but IMAX tickets, hard to get.

A

Just. I have a. I have like a phone bootleg you can just check out

B

if I watch the odyssey on iraqgoals.com this weekend on my phone.

A

Net. Yeah.

B

Oh, sorry. Sorry. Well, I just really blew up that other website.

A

Sure.

B

It's gonna be fine. Good luck to your browser.

A

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