Chris Ryan

This episode is brought to you by Brooks. Running connects us to a rush of energy that flows through our world. The cheers of friends that unlock a new gear within us. The intersection of interests that inspires a run crew, the support that gets you over the finish line. Connection is why we move forward and what inspires us to keep going. Let's run there. Learn more@brooksrunning.com did you know about 1

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Chris Ryan

I need support staff to clear the room.

Andy Greenwald

Stand up and walk now.

Chris Ryan

Hello and welcome to the Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor@theringer.com and joining me in the studio, the new manager of Tunisia, it's Andy Greenwald.

Andy Greenwald

Did he get sacked?

Chris Ryan

He did. After one game.

Andy Greenwald

After one game.

Chris Ryan

Swedes will do that to you, let me tell you.

Andy Greenwald

Whoa.

Chris Ryan

It's really good to see you. It's great to see Kaya. We're here in Los Angeles. I'm back from my Midwest sojourn. I've put in the work. Yeah, I've watched the shows, I've seen the movies.

Andy Greenwald

You've seen Jamie Pritzker up close.

Chris Ryan

Most importantly, I have watched the football. It's World cup season. The Knicks are champions. Widow's Bay finale on the horizon. House of the Dragon premiering soon. The Bears almost back. I'm trying to set a scene. Dude, you are trying to paint a picture of the little pleasures life can still offer.

Andy Greenwald

Wonderful.

Chris Ryan

Yeah.

Andy Greenwald

I mean, I'm thrilled. I need this from you. The Watch discombobulated.

Chris Ryan

The Watch podcast is a podcast about television and pop culture. And you can email its hosts. One of them reads it. It's thewatchpotify.com TheWatchPod is the Instagram handle. You can watch us on YouTube at the Ringer TV channel. Where you can also follow Joe and Rob in the Prestige TV podcast as they make their way through Cape Fear, as I have continued to do. I will say, I don't know if you saw the big news about a surprise cameo.

Andy Greenwald

I don't want to lift the kimono too much, but our friends at Apple TV told us we got an email saying, hey, big secret.

Chris Ryan

Yeah, maybe we'll revisit it. Who can say? Who can say? Today we are going to be talking a little bit about some news and notes in the world of television. A trailer, some casting news, a survey of a slightly alarming second half of 26 schedule that we've got on our hands.

Andy Greenwald

You are alarmed.

Chris Ryan

I just noted it with interest. We're going to talk about the fourth episode of Star City and Andy has gone on a kind of new adventure. Widow's Bay has given him permission to indulge in horror films for the first time in his. In his life.

Andy Greenwald

Well, indulges a bit rich.

Chris Ryan

And he watched Weapons because he watched Widows Bay and he was like, maybe I'm ready. And no spoilers. But you enjoyed it.

Andy Greenwald

Tweets from 2025. That movie rips.

Chris Ryan

I've put together a little bit of a horror 101.

Andy Greenwald

Oh, thank you.

Chris Ryan

For scaredy cats who like Widow's Bay,

Andy Greenwald

I think this is going to be really servicey.

Chris Ryan

Hopefully.

Andy Greenwald

I think there are hundreds of us.

Chris Ryan

Let's start with the most important news.

Andy Greenwald

Is it sexual?

Chris Ryan

Why don't we let her hair down a little bit? Let's. Let's get into character. How are you doing and how is your weekend, Chris?

Andy Greenwald

I love sports. I don't know what to tell you.

Chris Ryan

Sports are great.

Andy Greenwald

Sports still got it. And by the way, I do not include MMA in my list of great sports from the weekend. Just. Just FYI. I mean perhaps your aperture was wider than mine. Maybe you could both sides it but I. That that's where I am.

Chris Ryan

What sport do you think you would like to see at the White House next?

Andy Greenwald

Oh, this is a great question. What sport would I like to see next? Russian roulette.

Chris Ryan

I think we should turn into the spin. Yeah, I was going to say gladiator fights, but why not? Yeah, it was a cool sports weekend and I think I've seen a bunch of people say this, but it does feel like a weird moment where there was Stanley Cup. The Carolina won Stanley cup last night. You had 12 World cup matches over three days. 16 World cup matches over three days. Four days. And you had the Knicks winning on Saturday night. World cup is like triple or quadruple headers every day you can basically watch sports from the second you wake up to the second you go to bed. And it kind of feels like that thing that every single person as I've come in has said something about Curacao or some, you know.

Andy Greenwald

Yes.

Chris Ryan

And it's kind of like, that's the juice, man. You love it when everybody's kind of on the same page.

Andy Greenwald

If even a city as famously disparate and challenging to socialize in as Los Angeles was brimming with good spirit and collective beer ingestion. And just also, I mean, as a longtime supporter since yesterday of Cote d' Ivoire and their sporting project, you know, like, it was really nice to see

Chris Ryan

you got introduced to Jan Diamonde.

Andy Greenwald

Yeah, I sure did.

Chris Ryan

Yeah.

Andy Greenwald

You're a long time.

Chris Ryan

Liverpool are looking to spend €70 million on him.

Andy Greenwald

That's nice of them at least. It was really. It was just really fun. And then speaking of collectivism, like, I. To see New York City. New York City means a lot to us. I have not. I do not root for their teams, but many of my friends do and millions of my friends taking to the streets over the weekend. So I was going to zag.

Chris Ryan

I wasn't zagging. I instantly sent Sean a text to say, I'm really happy for you, dog. Like, I wanted to make sure he knew before, but over the weekend, Yeah, I was like, there is a settled down juice sip to be had here.

Andy Greenwald

Do you think?

Chris Ryan

Well, just act like you've been there before. I feel like we sell. No, I'm just kidding. I think that obviously, like, they. That New York is a special, special place. People are confronted with one another in almost every single aspect of their life, from their transportation to like the, you know, you're getting a hot dog on the street. Classic New York behavior.

Andy Greenwald

That's you. You were just. Where's Chris Goblin?

Chris Ryan

In the hotel truck again, gobbling down

Andy Greenwald

another dirty water dog.

Chris Ryan

And I think the fact that they live together means that they party together and celebrate together. And I think it's awesome.

Andy Greenwald

What was your favorite New York party video that made you wish you were back for this?

Chris Ryan

I mean, honestly, I'm a simp, but the Safdie Nike commercial was pretty incredible.

Andy Greenwald

That's good.

Chris Ryan

Uh, you know, I think that I was. I was watching, I think Mamdani was

Andy Greenwald

at the Puerto Rican Day frame, the

Chris Ryan

Brazil match with Hochul, and I was like, this is just. This is how I want it to be.

Andy Greenwald

You know what I mean?

Chris Ryan

That's what it should be like reaching across the aisle. Centrist and leftist.

Andy Greenwald

Which aisle is this exactly? I enjoyed. I saw our friend Washu posted a video of a man like swag surfing on a light, like a light pole with fireworks going off behind him. But my favorite, I think, was the one where there's a crowd of people masked on the street celebrating. And then a bus pulls up because there's public transportation. And everyone in the crowd immediately starts going, bus, bus, bus. And they all are just cheering for the bus. And the bus drives on.

Chris Ryan

I'm not on it. It's free.

Andy Greenwald

That's.

Commercial Voice

Oh.

Andy Greenwald

Oh, right.

Chris Ryan

Cause he actually don't know if that's happened yet.

Andy Greenwald

Well, whatever. He's opening a grocery store. I know that. That guy's killing it. Good for him. I love that.

Chris Ryan

People are buzzing. I like it. I like it.

Andy Greenwald

You're okay with it?

Chris Ryan

Yeah. As a longtime Hurricanes fan, I wondered about that.

Andy Greenwald

What can you tell us from. And then we're going to get into the other tv, I promise. But I want to talk briefly about World cup because you should mention again, you are also hosting a World cup hosting.

Chris Ryan

And really just supporting Adam Friedland in this new project. It's the Adam Friedland Show. Colon, the beautiful Pod. It's on his feed on Spotify Ringer.

Andy Greenwald

How are you feeling about the, you know, the culture setting that you guys are doing together? Are you figuring each other out? Feeling each other out as you go?

Chris Ryan

Yeah. We were trying to decide how many of the people who seem to be enjoying America so much on Twitter, like people, tourists in our nation, are in fact CIA plants.

Andy Greenwald

So seems like you guys have some shared interests there. My favorite thing before we talk about how much fun it has been to watch these games. And the US game was amazing. But all of them are amazing and incredibly fun to watch. I did. I noted with some interest that the single most important thing in American sports, which is naming rights to stadiums, those do not travel internationally. Or FIFA was like, you have to pay more.

Chris Ryan

Who named their stadium Field? Like somebody basically took down all the corporate nomenclature.

Andy Greenwald

So last night's match between Ecuador and Cote d' Ivoire took place at Lincoln Financial Field, home of the 2024 World Champion Philadelphia Eagles.

Chris Ryan

Let's hang on to it.

Andy Greenwald

I just wanted Sean to hear that part. And he can't hear shit. His ears are bloated.

Chris Ryan

All he hears is New York State of Mind by Billy Joel, the Knicks

Andy Greenwald

one, and Disclosure Day beat tracking. This is Sean's greatest weekend ever.

Chris Ryan

You sure?

Andy Greenwald

So the match was played at Lincoln Financial Field. And yet apparently it was played at Philadelphia stadium in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. And the opening USA Paraguay match, which took place in its SoFi, which I don't. What is SoFi?

Chris Ryan

It's a bank.

Andy Greenwald

I mean, of course it is, but really what is it?

Chris Ryan

It's a financial services institution.

Andy Greenwald

Why don't you ask Adam that question and see what he has to say about it. They paid what, hundreds of millions of dollars for the rights to slap their name on that. And yet to the viewers of that match, that was Los Angeles Stadium. It's like playing a Genesis. Sega Genesis.

Chris Ryan

Oh, it's like when they don't get the rights and it's just like, yeah, the Philadelphia Boston is running back to pick a random player.

Andy Greenwald

Was this a football Sega Genesis game or a legal thriller starring O.J. bimpson? For whom the. What, the slippers didn't fit so they had to quit?

Chris Ryan

That's right.

Andy Greenwald

Anyway, I found that fascinating. Any other thoughts as a longtime soccer head about is this particularly good already this year or is it just that larger field? It's been four years. We need something to feel good about.

Chris Ryan

The hydration breaks suck. I think that they are needed in some environments, but not in climate controlled stadiums or at night. And I think that the outrage at that will continue, especially if there's one. Like they were saying, there was several matches where a hydration break occurred when you felt like the game was teetering in a way that could go one way or the other. And for them to use these as. And I think specifically Fox, but whoever it is, is like maximizing the ad space that they can do is really, really disappointing. You know, they can do picture in picture advertisements if they have to. Like, they can extend halftime if they want to. Like there's all sorts of ways that they could have done this. So for them to break up the integrity of a football match is pretty, pretty disappointing. But other than that, I think it's been a pretty resounding success on the field, you know?

Andy Greenwald

Yeah, for sure.

Chris Ryan

I mean, there's been some already some. Some real black marks against, I would say the United States of America's hosting capabilities so far.

Andy Greenwald

But really, I thought everyone was going to delis.

Chris Ryan

I think the Somali ref being sent back home was. Was rather disappointing. Yeah.

Andy Greenwald

You don't think the delis outweighed that?

Chris Ryan

The delis.

Andy Greenwald

The English tourists going to delis in New Jersey.

Commercial Voice

Yeah.

Chris Ryan

And all the Scottish fans taking over Boston. I mean, all that shit has been amazing though. Yeah.

Andy Greenwald

Where are you on referee cameras?

Chris Ryan

They're incredible.

Andy Greenwald

Just like, it just looks like fucking

Chris Ryan

Claire Witch project there. Nike commercial, like 20 years ago that I think Guy Ritchie did, right. That had all like. That was that first person camera kind of. But I think that when you're watching from the angle that most normal human beings watch football, it's like this back and forth and it can feel kind of languid and you know, they're controlling. And then when you see that ref cam, you realize like, everything is happening in split second decisions. And these guys are doing.

Andy Greenwald

And the impacts are violent.

Chris Ryan

Yeah. And the impacts are super violent. So no wonder they're diving. It probably hurts.

Andy Greenwald

It probably hurts a little bit. Yeah. I am a every 4 years believer in the beautiful game. And I, as you know, really get swept up in the romanticism of things, both on the field, but also I do. I'm a sucker for it. I'm like, oh, the South Koreans are being adopted by their Mexican hosts in Guadalajara. And I'm like, what a wonderful world it is. And then I was like, I wonder if FIFA's gonna keep the good vibes going. And I saw that the next iteration of the World cup is in Spain, Portugal and Morocco. And I'm like, they could do it again with people exploring different countries and the country's collaborating. And I was like, where could we go next in 2034? And then I see it's Saudi Arabia. Yes. Like, okay.

Chris Ryan

Yeah. Well, there's a lot of years between now and 2030.

Andy Greenwald

That's true. A lot of, as Adam would say, Riyadh comedy festivals to get through between now and then.

Chris Ryan

You know, speaking of, I mentioned the intelligence services earlier, CIA and the Middle East. An important storyline within the first two seasons of Lioness, a Paramount plus show that I.

Andy Greenwald

God, you're the best.

Chris Ryan

I'm pretty excited to buy that's coming back in the fall.

Andy Greenwald

Yeah.

Chris Ryan

And I just want you to put it out there that we are back up.

Andy Greenwald

Okay. So. All right.

Chris Ryan

I have a lot of enthusiasm for this upcoming season.

Andy Greenwald

When have you not did your enthusiasm dip?

Chris Ryan

I think that the Sheridan brand to me has taken on some. Taken some lumps recently. I think regardless of whether or not there are things to like about the second season of Landman, Dutton Ranch, the Madison, et cetera, Marshalls, like, it's started. We've diluted the product a little bit.

Andy Greenwald

Oh, it's stepped on, I think, a little bit.

Chris Ryan

And Lioness this season, which I bet is going to be the last one, is. Is like, that's the pure shit. That's the Black tar.

Andy Greenwald

What specifically makes this?

Chris Ryan

I don't really know what it is. I think that this is kind of. This is like the darkest, most like, unrelentingly violent and cynical project he has. And I know that, you know, it's received into a world that is ever changing in terms of the chess pieces on the global military board. And I probably feel differently about, like, Special Operator porn now than I do, oh, five years ago. Okay. I don't know when it came out, but it's just a teaser. They seem to be. The marriage at the center of this show between Dave Annabelle and Zoe Saldana seems to be still teetering as he tries to reckon with. Did you not watch this teaser?

Andy Greenwald

No.

Chris Ryan

Okay, well, you have something to reward yourself.

Andy Greenwald

I can't wait.

Chris Ryan

After a hard day's work, should we

Andy Greenwald

step down and really dive into it?

Chris Ryan

We don't dive. I'm excited for that. That's coming out in the fall.

Andy Greenwald

Can I pause you for a second? Did you just refer to the lioness as Special Operator? Because what's exciting about that to me is imagining a world where, as in Russian, as we learned from Star City, which we're gonna talk about. There's a real, like, calling people by their titles and honorifics. Chief designer. I would be really into Linus if instead of calling her, whatever her name is, Linus, Joe. They would be like, special Operator, you're needed on the border. There's a bunch of trucks that need to get shot up. And she'd be like, I'm on it.

Chris Ryan

Yeah.

Andy Greenwald

Do you know about the video game development of the Sheridan universe? We haven't talked about this.

Chris Ryan

Yeah. What are they doing?

Andy Greenwald

So it was. It was reported that there is, like, they're actively pursuing opportunities to expand this brand into the video game space. And what's interesting, though, so Paramount Games has said that the quote, the entire Yellowstone IP is a major focus for them. They. At no point do they say that there's going to be a Lioness game, which I think is so weird.

Chris Ryan

Technically, it's not in the Yellowstone ip.

Andy Greenwald

No, but that's the one where you could see the game because it basically is the game.

Chris Ryan

It would just be Call of Duty. Yeah.

Andy Greenwald

And Taylor Sheridan is making a Call of Duty movie. Right. He's attached to that. The ones that are. Oh, okay. Lioness is mentioned in the thing, but it's third after Yellowstone and Tulsa King.

Chris Ryan

Oh, Tulsa King's weird. I was gonna ask you if you had seen the glowing reviews for the James Bond game that just came out. Morning Light.

Andy Greenwald

No, no, no.

Chris Ryan

It made me.

Andy Greenwald

You get the itch. Look at you.

Chris Ryan

I just, like. I started scratching up here and then I started scratching, like, right here.

Andy Greenwald

Yeah. Right where the main vein.

Chris Ryan

The old wound.

Andy Greenwald

Yeah.

Chris Ryan

And I was like, should we get the band back together? So should we go halves on a PS5?

Andy Greenwald

First of all, please save me from myself. I do think that in my limited involvement with contemporary video games, which is with my children, for the most part, on The Nintendo Switch 2 platform, the days of, like. What we are talking about is, like, goldeneye and Perfect Dark, which was really an ideal vehicle in which to express our feelings about Wu Tang Clan's the W being released. And also where we were in terms of, like, drink consumption. Like, that was a good. Because you just sort of ran around dark hallways and smashed the button. Video gaming now, for the most part, is like, a lot of, like, you're doing great James Bond. Why not try turning left here? And he's like, but I can't. My trauma, like, no sky falls to the right. Like, there's so much talking. There's some really good parodies of this that I've observed. But basically, like, for example, when we were in college, much in the same way that you went to hardcore shows, and I asked you if you'd come with me to see Belle and Sebastian play at a university library.

Chris Ryan

Yeah.

Andy Greenwald

When we crossed over, it would often be in the realm of a goldeneye or Perfect Dart or a Super Chunk. Right. But in my own time, I would play Final Fantasy vii.

Chris Ryan

Yes.

Andy Greenwald

And really bring down the evil Shinra Corporation from the comfort of my dorm room. So they remade this game for the Switch 2. And I was like, children, children. Your father has a cultural artifact to share with you that has been updated to your demanding graphic.

Chris Ryan

That always goes well for you.

Andy Greenwald

And the entire game now is like, the whole purpose of the first game, and it was really brilliant at the time, is you're playing this main character who's a cipher, who looks cool as hell. He's got a big.

Chris Ryan

In Final Fantasy.

Andy Greenwald

Yeah, he's got a big sword. I thought it was a lady. There's many final fantasies. We'll get into this.

Chris Ryan

Okay.

Andy Greenwald

Kai, how are we doing? We're killing it, right? She's interested. We have such a hard out. I know, but I'm just saying. The point is, in that game, the blankness of your protagonist is the story. Because you find out that his memories are fake sand. And everyone else is reacting to him and whatever. Whatever in the new game, because there's a need for constant talking. He's just like. Every time he fights, he's like, gotcha. You won't walk away from that so easily, will you? And she's like, look out, Cloud. Well done. And then there's the voice of the game being like, we must hurry if we want to solve the mystery.

Chris Ryan

Sounds like the Social Reckoning teaser.

Andy Greenwald

It's exactly like that. That's contemporary, all of this, Right. We must fill the frame and the speakers with as much information constantly as possible. All of this is to say, I don't know if a James Bond game would give us the base thrills that we're looking for anymore, but it might teach you.

Chris Ryan

There's only one way to find out.

Andy Greenwald

All right, fine.

Chris Ryan

There's only one way to find out. Speaking of spying.

Andy Greenwald

Yeah.

Chris Ryan

I just want to mention that the Legacy of Spies TV series that's supposed to come out on BBC, but then Starz, I believe, or mgm, I think.

Andy Greenwald

Yeah. Because of the Bond ip, probably next

Chris Ryan

year, I would imagine. And this will lead me to my next segment. Is continues to fill out its cash.

Andy Greenwald

They're stacking this thing.

Chris Ryan

They got Hugh Laurie playing control, which I think is sicko mode. And then one of the most interesting choices I've seen in a minute. Joe Alwyn is playing Jim Prudho. For John Le Carre fans, this is an adaptation of a John Le Carre book, but it is basically the Le Carre, Inc. You know, his sons and the sort of production company that they formed. It's their effort to basically start the John Le Carre shared universe. I think Jim Prudhoe is like a major character in Tinker Taylor. And Joe Alwyn who has done Yeoman's work at rehabilitating his career. And I think his public facing Persona since his romance of Taylor Swift is he's made some really good movies. He's been in some really good movies. And I dare say I think that this entire thing kind of hinges on whether or not he's any good.

Andy Greenwald

He seems good. I've heard he's a nice guy. You don't like his contributions to the tortured poets?

Chris Ryan

I liked him in the Brutalist.

Andy Greenwald

Okay.

Chris Ryan

Classic Pennsylvanian right there.

Andy Greenwald

I liked his shadow over songs like the Black Dog more than I liked his performance in the Brutalist.

Chris Ryan

You were not a Brutalist guy.

Andy Greenwald

No, I hated the Brutalist.

Chris Ryan

Yeah. Anyway, that's a show that I'm looking forward to and one of the segments I wanted to do with you today is a question I had. Are we back in like 1994, where we just are taking the late summer off from television.

Andy Greenwald

Oh, I thought you were saying, are we back in the way people say it online?

Chris Ryan

So I was reading Joe Dalian had a really good piece in Vulture about Widow's Bay and how it has become a kind of late breaking Emmy, if not favorite, at least danger to really upset the apple cart with the Emmys with the noms and stuff. And I completely agree. I don't think that there has been a show, maybe other than the Pit and Nights, that I have heard more people in my life talking about in glowing terms and that they don't vote for Emmys.

Andy Greenwald

What was the second one you said like? Night of the Seven Kingdom.

Chris Ryan

Night of the Seven Kingdoms. Night of the Seven Kingdoms, where people are like catching up with it week to week. It's growing and growing over the course of its run.

Andy Greenwald

I mean, Joe had some data about that. I think streaming data is always a little bit suspect, but it seems undeniably true in both, like, the numbers he had and in lived experience that, that this is a unicorn in the sense that it has grown exponentially week over week and apparently is still growing. Like the audience is finding it even now on the precipice of the finale.

Chris Ryan

So I thought that was interesting. And in that piece, he mentions the way that spring in TV has turned into late November, December in movies, and that the studios are essentially banking their stuff that they think is Emmy worthy to put out at the same time. And now we've complained about this before, where there's this huge glut of stuff over the last six weeks leading up until the Emmy deadline. And then there is kind of this, like, almost collapse that happens. Now, we do have some good stuff coming out in the coming weeks. Like I mentioned earlier in the show, there's House of the Dragon, the Agency, the Bear, the Larry David Show. I mean, not necessarily for our pod, but the Legally Blonde show, Elle is coming on Amazon Prime, Lucky. The Anya Taylor Joy show on Apple Lanterns is later this summer. And the Will Ferrell golf comedy the Hawk, I think is still coming out this summer, although it's always hard to tell with Netflix sometimes, but I don't think other than until Potter in December. There's like a big show in the fall, as far as I. As far as I can tell.

Andy Greenwald

Well, we could be surprised.

Chris Ryan

We could always be surprised. And that's actually among my favorite moments for this POD and for watching tv is when either you can catch up on stuff or something comes out of nowhere. Maybe it's a show from another country or maybe it's something that you didn't know Netflix or Apple had and now it's in your face. HBO often will sometimes like have a random thing that they're showing on like what would be be like a Monday night show and it becomes a big deal. But I, I don't really care about the Emmys, as I've said before. But do you think that the Emmys are maybe like a little towering, a little too largely over the schedule?

Andy Greenwald

Yeah, I think it's a very interesting point to make and I think that like we are dealing with a, with a deficit of attention economy and it has never been harder to break through the noise for anything because as we discuss and as we live everything, TVs, movies, music, politics, news is competing with everything that has ever happened.

Chris Ryan

Disclosure J probably would have made more money if it wasn't for the Knicks and the World cup.

Andy Greenwald

Right? And although Sean managed to do all three, probably he sure did. So he's doing his part. It's representative in an interesting way of what the major streamers and networks are thinking in terms of what their best bet is for some of their material. And maybe we're due for, maybe we're due for a correction because I think that there has been such smart scheduling Jiu Jitsu performed over the last few years. It's now been quite some time. But like Netflix, like actually realizing that the holidays aren't the time to avoid releasing things, it's actually the best time to flood the zone, especially with family friendly or appointment type viewing like Stranger Things.

Chris Ryan

Stranger Things.

Andy Greenwald

That's something that now HBO has learned its lesson from. And that's why the Harry Potter show is coming out around Christmas. It may be time now that schedules are finally, this may be the first year, first 18 months that things have finally kind of got back to normal and on track since the double whammy of COVID and the strikes. But to your point, like, late summer now seems like an opportunity. I think that they have overcorrected for Emmy attention. I don't think that the Emmys necessarily mean so much in terms of like we have now been validated, but the Emmys and the Emmy promotional window and then the long tail of Emmy nominations leading to the awards is it's not, certainly not free marketing and advertising, but it is another way to stay at the forefront of the conversation and to keep you in the conversation in a way that is necessary for shows that take anywhere from one year to three years to Come back again. So it's just extending the tail of that. That said, there has to be a limit to this. Because one thing that. I don't even think we're gonna talk about it fully today. Cause I don't think you've engaged with it yet. But I did start to check out Amadeus on Starz, and it's awesome and clever and interesting and worthwhile and debuted in the UK in the fall. And then Starz kind of stars picked it up and I don't wanna say dumped it, but kind of dumped it a month ago.

Chris Ryan

I think it's to whatever extent that, like, I just don't think a lot. I don't know that a lot of people have stars necessarily.

Andy Greenwald

No. And I don't know if the people who have stars. I mean, Starz is bread and butter. Is the. We were semi joking about it. Not that these shows are bad, but there are so many power spinoffs that it's like, it's an incredibly thriving ecosystem that I don't know anything about. What I mean. What I mean by bringing up Amadeus is that I would imagine the marketing department of Starz had a choice. They were like, what is the best bet to get any return on our investment or to have people appreciate the. Less cynically appreciate the show that we've fallen in love with. And I think the two paths were, let's try to get Will Sharp and Paul Bettany Emmy nominations or the alternative. What potentially would have been. There's a dead zone in August where we could say we've got something fun and surprising and prestige Y and cool. And for whatever reason, they decided to put it in the most crowded portion of the year.

Chris Ryan

Yeah, I don't know. I don't know what the answer is. I tried throwing out, let's have the Emmys twice a year. And I feel like, do you have.

Andy Greenwald

Do you have like a Penske shares?

Chris Ryan

Town pushed back on that. Not Bellamy, but the town itself, Lucas Shaw. I got. The responses I got were like, that wouldn't work. And then I was.

Andy Greenwald

Responses. Okay, interesting.

Chris Ryan

Well, what if you did the Emmys? You know, I mean, the Emmys are held in the spring, I think because of the traditional network TV cycle of fall to spring TV programming.

Andy Greenwald

Well, the cutoff window occurs then, because that would be in time to capture the finales of the broadcast TV season. Exactly.

Chris Ryan

I don't know. I mean, that's not really how people watch television anymore. So why not have it in October, November?

Andy Greenwald

And there is. I was gonna say there's science to it. It's not science to it. It's just also common sense. Like on that podcast, the Town I was listening to, I think Craig said that he liked Disclosure Day more than Matt and he thought Emily Blunt might get an Oscar nomination. And Matt was dismissive of it. Not because he didn't think she was good, but because I think he was right in saying this movie would have to go on a generational box office run to carry her candidacy into the Emmy. Sorry. Into the Oscar nominating period. I think that's still true.

Chris Ryan

I guess that's true. I mean, if Sinners did a generational box office run, I guess that would be the comp.

Andy Greenwald

Sinner. Yeah, it's possible. And similarly, like shows, there will be Emmy nominees that aired in the fall of 2025. Task is an example. Task will definitely get some kind of nomination, but I think the more successful strategy is like front of mind. We just ended and then best case scenario is Widow's Bay. I don't think Apple was like, let's drop this in the eligibility window because we think we have a shot. It was more like, let's just see.

Chris Ryan

Seems like a fun spring show.

Andy Greenwald

Yeah.

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Chris Ryan

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Andy Greenwald

episode on Thursday for the finale.

Chris Ryan

For the finale. You know, you. You said that like you kind of were inspired by Widow's Bay to check out weapons. Finally.

Andy Greenwald

I love Widow's Bay so much that I don't have any hesitation about engaging with it. And partly I think that's because it's rewarded my confidence and faith in it and has only given me one example of a clown chasing a man through a crawlspace. There hasn't been a ton of that, but for whatever reason, I think it's. One version of the story is like, I'm braver now, or maybe I was wrong about myself. The other version of the story is Widow's Bay has made me so excited about the possibility of different notes being played on my emotional storytelling piano that I'm willing to give it a shot. Now, we don't need to relitigate weapons because that conversation missed me, and that's my fault. But I always hoped to watch it to one day be a big enough boy to watch it. I believed on some level that I could handle it. I think that I. To my credit, I definitely downloaded it for multiple transatlantic flights, but didn't feel like the time or place.

Chris Ryan

Yeah. And also, I think it's probably better on a bigger screen.

Andy Greenwald

Yes, I would agree with that as well. And again, I don't wanna ding you. You've been nothing but a supportive and good friend to me. But I will say part of my attempt to stay unspoiled is I didn't read anything about it, so I never saw Zach Kreger's quote that he was inspired primarily by Paul Thomas Anderson's film Magnolia and Jennifer Egan's novel A Visit from the Goon Squad.

Chris Ryan

Yes.

Andy Greenwald

If you, my friend, had led with that, I would have been at the theater opening weekend.

Chris Ryan

So my issue with that is, A, that's not my job. B, fair, fair. If I had told you that and you had gone opening night.

Andy Greenwald

Yeah. What would I have said? Paint me a picture.

Chris Ryan

Amy Madigan was torn to pieces by children. I think the blowback on me, you would have been mad at me, not Zach Cracker.

Andy Greenwald

Okay, now let me just prepare you for the next time this comes up, because this will not be the last movie in which Oscar winners are torn apart by children. The issue for me is if aging Oscar Winners had torn children apart. My allegiance and my emotional.

Chris Ryan

See, I thought you would be like, who's gonna. What happens to these children? What kind of therapy do they need?

Andy Greenwald

They're bewitched. Whatever.

Chris Ryan

They were bewitched. Whatever.

Andy Greenwald

So this is my child, when the iPad is in front of her, is capable of anything, and I can say anything to her, and it will be as if it's water off the proverbial duck's back.

Chris Ryan

Cut the little piece of hair.

Andy Greenwald

I could. I could do. The power that parents now have in front of these children is awesome. Yes.

Chris Ryan

You could be like, this is the Swedish national team.

Andy Greenwald

Yes.

Chris Ryan

We're going to be watching them for two hours and 15 minutes.

Andy Greenwald

I did try that with the US National Team, and the disinterest was like a physical presence in the room with me, really. The air was thick with not caring.

Chris Ryan

Just the cutaways to, like, Marco Rubio didn't do it for them.

Andy Greenwald

Or they still believe in jd. So, anyway, I put together a little

Chris Ryan

bit of a list here of recent horror movies to talk to you about.

Andy Greenwald

Can I say one last thing, though?

Chris Ryan

Of course.

Andy Greenwald

That guy can really make a movie. Yeah, it was awesome. It did validate a thought that Widow's Bay had given me, which is that I can go on. Two thoughts. One, I can go on any journey with characters if I believe them on an emotional or human level. And I love.

Chris Ryan

Which character did you identify with in Weapons, Gladys?

Andy Greenwald

I think the elderly are often discarded by our capitalistic society, you know, and I felt like her attempt to find a home. I think that we've both been motivated by elder care recently.

Chris Ryan

Brolin gives real, like, sun dad vibes, but I wondered whether or not you really were like, I, too, would never give up looking for my disappeared child.

Andy Greenwald

No, none of that. No, no, I wasn't. I didn't need to find me in this because I think we know generally that, like, Booktok and like YA fandom is, like, super toxic. But then there were those people who were like, I don't read the descriptions. I only read dialogue. Because why would I want. Why would I trust someone else's point of view?

Chris Ryan

I did not see this.

Andy Greenwald

This is a whole movement of people. I think I was saving it for our book talk. Not Tok, but actual talk about books. Anyway, I do not need to have a hero on screen to watch art. That said, I mean, like, the fact that the movie was grounded in a world in which Julia Garner has this, like, you know, destructive relationship with Alden Ehrenreich's Cop and that they have a history with each other.

Chris Ryan

Another little piece of my Alden Ehr ipo, don't you?

Andy Greenwald

I am fucking almost missed it.

Chris Ryan

One saw him in Becky Shaw.

Andy Greenwald

I know.

Chris Ryan

And Andy's text response was, so you really like him, huh?

Andy Greenwald

What do you mean? No, that was your response that you saw the movie.

Chris Ryan

No, that you saw.

Andy Greenwald

That you saw the play.

Chris Ryan

When I was like, my boy Alden cooking in Becky Shaw and you were like, oh, you really like that guy, huh?

Andy Greenwald

Boy, I sound like a real asshole over text.

Chris Ryan

I think you're probably just like, I can't believe Chris is at, like, a Broadway play. And I'm.

Andy Greenwald

Must be nice. That's probably what I said.

Chris Ryan

Basically.

Andy Greenwald

It's like cooking a dinner that I know is gonna be rejected in six minutes. And you're like, Broadway. No, no, no. I just, like, I loved the attention to. In the spirit of Magnolia, the attention to characters who felt fully realized and real before the supernatural shit hit. And the way that it overlapped the stories and took one step back for different perspective and, like, these little details, like Benedict Wong, Principal Benedict Wong, and his husband having hot dog day. Like, these little fucking, like, fun, funny details were wonderful. And Ehrenreich is awesome in that part. When I bought into that world, anything could happen in it. And it was enjoyable and gripping and not shocking. I will say that, like, the other thing that I realized in my long absence from real Horror other than newyorktimes.com is the opinion pages, by the way, not the news. Is that I kind of forgot that there is a.

Chris Ryan

Did you write an angry letter about the Kathy Rumler profile that they ran?

Andy Greenwald

I drafted one. Dear sir, my drafts folder is flames.

Chris Ryan

Dear sirs, madams.

Andy Greenwald

No, the thing that's driving me craziest about the Times right now is that they change their headlines to be less stupid as the day goes on.

Chris Ryan

Yeah, that's always been like a gimmick on Twitter where people are like, fixed it for you, you know?

Andy Greenwald

Yeah.

Chris Ryan

Criminal enters White House for a second time. Fixed it for you.

Andy Greenwald

The edit. No, but it's like the Michelle Goldberg column was just like, I followed the Democrat that everyone who's smart wants to be president. And then, like, by the end of the day, it was like a day with John Ossoff.

Chris Ryan

Anyway, they know the angriest people get up first, you know, Good morning.

Andy Greenwald

Fire off a couple texts to you about what you're was. This is gonna sound very silly saying this to you because you live. You are Bane, born in this particular darkness. But I definitely have self selected myself out of a lot of entertainment that plays to not just horror wise, but the way you feel at the end when Gladys gets ripped apart by children is a cortisol adrenaline emotion spike that also comes at the end of Die Hard, a movie I hadn't seen in a while and watched recently. Like an action movie thing. And that is. That's what I was saying. Like the part of the keyboard that I don't often tickle. That was wild.

Chris Ryan

Yeah. Like, I think that I am increasingly becoming the person who like rides roller coasters to feed, feel something, but worry that like, yeah, pretty soon I'm not going to eat the roller coaster. You know, it's just going to be like, what's the tallest building?

Andy Greenwald

And then what are you going to do?

Chris Ryan

Just. Just jump and feel, you know. But with horror movies, that's a. I meant that more metaphor.

Andy Greenwald

Yeah.

Chris Ryan

You want to know where you should go next or if I can.

Andy Greenwald

Yeah.

Chris Ryan

Well, the biggest question is, are you so fired up, are you so lost on this weapons gas that you'll go see Resident Evil with me?

Andy Greenwald

I think two things.

Chris Ryan

One, fountains of blood in this movie.

Andy Greenwald

I think that's gonna be zombies. Well, I mean, I did just undead.

Chris Ryan

I'm sorry.

Andy Greenwald

Yeah, that's what we're calling them now. Is that the unhoused of zombies? Incredible. Okay, I will cop to one last thing. I think controlling the environment helped my engagement with weapons. I did have the lights on. I did have a cat nearby for throttling and grabbing purposes. She was not scared, by the way. She seemed worse. I could. I don't know. It was powerful for me to be like, if I'm wrong about this, I could go in the other room.

Chris Ryan

Yeah, you can always hit pause.

Andy Greenwald

Yeah. You can't do that in the theater. That's really getting on the ride. I don't know.

Chris Ryan

Yeah. Okay. So Resident Evil is the next cragger movie.

Andy Greenwald

Yeah, I saw the trailer. It's sick.

Chris Ryan

It's sick.

Andy Greenwald

That's your boy Austin Abrams too. Back for more.

Chris Ryan

Another IPO holding I've been giving.

Andy Greenwald

You have been nurturing that one.

Commercial Voice

Yeah.

Chris Ryan

I am America's first trillionaire.

Andy Greenwald

You fucking bought that as a penny stock from Spike Jonze.

Chris Ryan

I saw him in Paper Towns.

Andy Greenwald

Incredible.

Chris Ryan

A movie with Cara Delevingne and I can't remember who else.

Andy Greenwald

And it's like that was a John

Chris Ryan

Green adaptation and I was like, that kid's going places.

Andy Greenwald

Whereas I thought it was Gracie's less talented younger brother until about six Weeks ago.

Chris Ryan

No, I know, but that probably is why you didn't respect his craft, is because you were like another Nepo, much like Jane Campion's daughter, stomping all over Star City. I am detecting a slight whiff of a need for a minor amount of ironic distance in your horror films.

Andy Greenwald

What I'm saying is give me the three pitch speeds that I could go into.

Chris Ryan

Okay, so number one would be things that have some tongue in cheek, some meta commentary, some comic elements.

Andy Greenwald

Scary Movie 5.

Chris Ryan

No.

Andy Greenwald

Okay, good.

Chris Ryan

Shaun of the Dead, I love that.

Andy Greenwald

Okay, just making sure I mean that. Yeah, come on. Cabin in the woods had never seen it.

Chris Ryan

I think you would enjoy it.

Andy Greenwald

Okay.

Chris Ryan

And Scream 3, which is the one set in Hollywood where they're making a Scream. They're making Stab about Scream, and the script is kind of being written as it goes and killing people.

Andy Greenwald

But don't you think that runs afoul of my first. The first plank in my absolutely rock solid weapons platform, which was real people with real emotional stuff?

Chris Ryan

You don't think that Sidney Prescott is a real person? You don't think she carries ratas.

Andy Greenwald

Okay, I see what you're saying, though. And I love Shaun of the Dead.

Chris Ryan

So the thing is that weapons has comic moments, obviously. Widow's Bay is sort of pitched more as a what if horror was happening in a sitcom? Although I think as the second half of the season has gone on, gotten away from the Office Space aspect of it and more into the like, these people are in true danger. But I did want to suggest a movie called the Invitation, which is a Karen Kurin kusama movie from 10 years ago. Maybe at this point, maybe longer. First of all, just very much feels like that. I know I'm in a major city, but it feels like I'm alone in the world.

Andy Greenwald

Okay.

Chris Ryan

Dinner Party. Psychological thriller, horror movie. Logan Marshall Green is in that.

Commercial Voice

Sure.

Chris Ryan

And it is about a dinner party that turns into a kind of a cult initiation kind of thing.

Andy Greenwald

By the way, for non longtime listeners, Chris mentioned Logan Marshall Green because that is a stock that is still. You're still. You're holding, but you're not.

Chris Ryan

He's on Marshalls. He's on the most popular television show in America.

Andy Greenwald

That's Nepo. He's a Marshall Green. He didn't earn that. No, but speaking of like. But you mentioned him to me because his mother was my college acting teacher.

Chris Ryan

Yes. And she's done a great job.

Andy Greenwald

The great Larry.

Chris Ryan

In terms of. There's a couple that came out where I wonder whether or not. They would just be too intense. Like there was not the release valves that I think weapons has where, hey, yeah, like we're gonna hit stop. It's a new vignette. You're gonna get to start with a new vibe with Eren Reich or with Abrams or with Benedict Wong or whatever.

Andy Greenwald

And the other thing that is, I think for me, I guess, sort of I didn't even pay attention to it. You get a taste of what's coming and then you rewind. So like the weapons tells you what happens to Benedict Wong and then you just find out why it happens. And it's absolutely horrific. But you are a little bit.

Chris Ryan

That's what I'm saying. You need a stiff arm up.

Andy Greenwald

You need a Heisman. O.J. bimson up in my face.

Chris Ryan

Among recent films, I mean, for instance, the best horror thriller that I've seen this decade is Red Rooms. I don't think you can handle Red Rooms.

Andy Greenwald

Who made that one?

Chris Ryan

It's a French Canadian film about a woman who becomes obsessed with a serial killer of young girls and she goes to his trial every day. And there are reasons for that.

Andy Greenwald

I hope so. I mean, I'm a fan of cinema and I hope that there are reasons.

Chris Ryan

I do think you might be interested in Emptyman. It has David Fincher vibes. It's kind of more like in the Manhunter genre of James Badge. Dale plays a cop that's another guy you love. And it's kind of a crossover between the occult and serial killer. But if you like Mindhunter, if you like Manhunter, if you like Seven, I think that you'd be into that. But again, not a lot of laughs.

Andy Greenwald

Okay.

Chris Ryan

It follows David Robert M. Mitchell's movie about. Oh, I've heard about this Cursed virginity. A. A virginity curse basically around Micah Monroe. Couldn't be us in an abandoned kind of ex Bourbia. Cinematically incredibly like compelling to watch some really good filmmaking. A couple of real, like that scary moments. They're going to make a sequel to that, so get on board now before it happens.

Andy Greenwald

All right. This is good. Also, half of these you could be making up.

Chris Ryan

I could be. And then Strange Darling was one from a couple years ago, or maybe even just last year, J.T. molnar's movie. And he went on to write the last the Long Walk, the Stephen King adaptation. It's a kind of Tarantino esque take on two people chasing each other across the countryside. And it's like, what is going on here? Who's the good guy? Who's the bad guy. But two incredible performances. Yeah.

Andy Greenwald

And I think this is not. I think this is potentially servicy as well. Because like I said, I don't think I'm the only one who is. Because people have asked me in my life, like, can I handle Widow's Bay? I don't like her.

Chris Ryan

Right.

Andy Greenwald

And the answer is absolutely yes. And I think it's good to try new things. And I'm not. You know, I play a part here a little bit. Like, I have seen a scary movie once.

Chris Ryan

No, but I wouldn't make you watch Green Room, which is Jeremy Saulnier's movie about a punk rock band being chased by white supremacists.

Andy Greenwald

I care about punk rock bands too much. I can't. I cannot see them suffer. I just want to see them held up and invited on this podcast.

Chris Ryan

Yeah. When you're not here.

Andy Greenwald

When I'm not here. But I'm worried about that. I don't want to corrupt them.

Chris Ryan

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Andy Greenwald

Carvana.

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Chris Ryan

Fees may apply.

Andy Greenwald

Can I just ask, I know we're up against it, but Kayak. Do you. Where are you on this? In terms of horror movies, have you seen any of these that he's mentioned?

Chris Ryan

Yes, I've actually seen. This is like the most movies I've

Andy Greenwald

seen out of a Chris Ryan list. I love we forget this. You guys watch a lot of zombie stuff? Yes.

Chris Ryan

Green Room is really good. He's ready. The invitation is very good. It follows is probably one of my favorite movies I've seen.

Commercial Voice

Damn.

Chris Ryan

There you go. Last couple decades.

Andy Greenwald

Wow.

Chris Ryan

I Mean, it's all right there waiting for you.

Andy Greenwald

I mean, I am such a. What's the word? That I actually just feel some credit. No, but about this, not about watching. Like, I can watch hard things and I can surprise myself with scary things and I can be. I was delighted with some of the jump scares and weapons. I will say though, I am so relatively new to this and perhaps have bubble wrapped myself so intensely that when the movie was over and I was super psyched, I was faced immediately with two problems. One, you were fucking in a different time zone, so I couldn't tell you and brag about how I had done something. And two, I was like, am I gonna have nightmares? I actually thought I'm like, well, now

Chris Ryan

must I do to worry about that? Because all I have is stress nightmares

Andy Greenwald

about doing podcasts a billion percent.

Chris Ryan

They're never interesting. They're always like, I've woken up late and I forgot what I'm talking about.

Andy Greenwald

I completely. Yeah, Bill's mad. Bill's in the basement.

Chris Ryan

Yeah.

Andy Greenwald

Yeah. So it was Aunt Gladys. I didn't. I wish I had seen it early enough to have not even been spoiled by Anne Gladys.

Chris Ryan

Oh, and the other one I would say that you should watch, honestly, even though you're gonna find it too intense in places is the 28 years later and 28 years later bone Temple.

Andy Greenwald

Okay, this came out because those are

Chris Ryan

two of my favorite movies of the last two years.

Andy Greenwald

I did start 28 years later and I was like, I can't wait to tell Chris I did this so he'll be proud of me. And I tapped out. Okay, I tapped out early because of this.

Chris Ryan

360 shots of guys eating deers or

Andy Greenwald

whatever or no deer can be delicious if prepared properly. Sometimes you have to be warned about buckshot.

Chris Ryan

I think you really held Gail Simmons feet to the fire about venison preparation in a zombie apocalypse. I have to rush you through this because I want to do Star City before we get out of here. I'm sorry for the speed round lovely episode of television Dark Forest. It was directed by Stefan Schwartz, which I want to make sure I get right. And Lebe Weinberg wrote it. There was some elements of this one that reminded me of for all mankind in good ways. Where you start to see the beginnings of, you know, freeway extensions to the future. The beginning of like say a nine month mission that the chief designer is going to spoilers for this fourth episode, obviously. And we're keeping Star City at the end so that obviously, like, it's a growing show It's a show that's new and many people haven't caught onto it yet. I'd like to see it further up Apple's top shows ratings. But it's something that I think is just a wonderful, wonderful show. And it is among my favorite things that's been released this year so far. So, yeah, you see the for all mankind building blocks of like these people are going to go out into the far reaches of the galaxy and we'll be gone for nine months. And it's like this is the kind of series that takes those kinds of jumps and takes those kinds of risks, but the real drama and the real action remains grounded in Moscow and in Star City. And I thought that this one was a lovely episode of television that was also an example of this one. They. They do things you see on other series and they do them so fucking well that you're just like, you know what, brother, I know the notes. Play the song. Anyway, yeah, so like this episode opens with a. How Valya was corrupted by the US intelligence services to become a molecule. And you've seen like this, these kinds of flashbacks done. Tons of espionage shows, tons of other shows do the like three years earlier. Now we explain why this person is the way they are. And it's done so artfully. Like there are these shots of Tanya and Valya when they're at a party together. And there's like a. They're both in windows separate from each other in an apartment. And then you can tell that they see each other and she comes over to him and is in his window and they're being watched by a US intelligence operative operative. That. And then at the end of the episode, Anastasia, who's been hitting the bottle and signing, signing autographs and kissing babies. Finally, the closest she's come to getting back out into space is setting off fireworks with a bunch of dorks from a. From a physics department at a university on a. Out by a dacha, out on a lake somewhere in rural Russia. And her joy. And also like just some of the shots of them setting off these fireworks. I was like this, this doesn't need to be this good. But because it's this good, it makes this show great. But those are my big takeaways.

Andy Greenwald

I couldn't agree with you more. I feel like you even another example, even from just that opening that's explaining the story of how a hero has ostensibly been turned to be a villain within the narrative of the show. The moment when he is approached by the Western operative to turn him in turn him because of the exposure of his wife to protect her.

Chris Ryan

He's in a dissident group. Yeah.

Andy Greenwald

They're waiting for a bus and then the bus engine starts and we don't hear the conversation. Real GS. No. You can move in silence like lasagna. And you can do that sometimes in art with negative space. And you can do it. And it's hard to do it particularly hard to do it as a writer in a shrinking industry like television, where you can't trust. You can get your point across to the various levels of executives and development people and producers. But ultimately, it's a visual medium. And if you trust the story you're telling and your collaborators in it, they can tell you the story with the pictures and you can win by saying less. And that was an incredible moment that captures that at its best. You mentioned for all mankind. I would say that the for all mankindness of this episode for me at first was the groaning runtime. Like. And I say this to people, if anyone is still listening. Who wants to be sold four episodes in on the show? I hear you. I didn't feel particularly fired up to watch the fourth episode of Star City because it is so visually committed to the color palette and the world and the moment and the very, very specific storytelling that I was like, is this really. After watching Cote d', Ivoire, is this really gonna be the rest of my Sunday night? And when it's an hour and 10 minutes. And the thing about it is, I

Chris Ryan

could be watching this Tunisian manager's last

Andy Greenwald

match, but genuinely, it rewarded patience and it rewards. It's like the slow food manifestation.

Chris Ryan

Dude, I had a note that was like, some of these scenes feel more like European cinema than they do American television.

Andy Greenwald

They are very, very long. And the way that it earns it is so old fashioned and kind of beautiful. They earn it by saying, here are the six characters and we are going to draw them into such inexorably tight knots early that every scene is imbued with that extra connection that. And I think that the two standout moments for me of the episode that are both old school and hadn't seen that before. Old school is Ris. Ifan's performance as chief designer is so subtle and so strong. And even if it was just a passing conversation or if it was always the intention, the character is based on a kindness and paternalistic decency that anchors the show. Like, in the midst of people who have. Like, this was an episode that gave Lyudmila a little bit more. She's Endangered too. Even though she's mostly just been shooting people.

Chris Ryan

And I love that her reaction to that was just to be. To choose somebody at random. To be brutal to.

Andy Greenwald

Exactly.

Chris Ryan

Like, she's like, if I feel pressure, like some other poor person is going to get it. Yeah.

Andy Greenwald

So. But you also could see the scaffolding of, like, let's make her a little bit more understandable or empathetic. Chief designer in his scene with. I'm getting her name right. With Lakshmi, who's a new character this week played by Priya Khansara.

Chris Ryan

Awesome. Dr. Chadha or whoever. Yeah.

Andy Greenwald

The way that he sort of brings her on is like classic Hollywood. Almost like you've mistaken me for someone else. But I love your spunk and your spirit. And by the way, I'm fucking sending you to Venus even though you're not a cosmonaut. Was awesome and exciting and very old fashioned. Like, I love these people already kind of thing. Counterpoint that with Irina's discovery much sooner than I think it would have necessarily come in a show. I didn't think they were gonna be able to pin this on Valya. Within one episode of the reveal that Irina is charged with tracking down this tiny coil, this heat conducting coil that was pirated into the lunar lander, that it was connected to the French perfume that she had already clocked in their apartment the week before.

Commercial Voice

Yes.

Andy Greenwald

Is such elegant spy crash storytelling. I was like, God damn you. And I watch a lot of spy shit.

Chris Ryan

Yeah.

Andy Greenwald

And it honestly doesn't take a lot to make us like it. And I thought that was just wildly clever. Yeah.

Chris Ryan

And Agnes o' Casey's doing a really great job where there is this sort of dead ember, like one little glowing ember of desire inside of her. And I don't know which way it's going. Like, is she in love with Tanya? Is she in love with Valya? Is she just in love with the fact that they have a private life that is full of sensual awakening and music and travel? Yeah.

Andy Greenwald

Or. Exactly. I didn't even say that. The other thing that made the scene brilliant wasn't the mechanics of like, oh, this is a spring and this is how they got it to her. It's that the previous episode established that she is incredibly jealous of the perfume. So in this scene you're like, did she manufacture a reason to go back there solely to squirt, spray some perfume?

Chris Ryan

Yeah.

Andy Greenwald

And that's what makes it excellent.

Chris Ryan

Yeah.

Andy Greenwald

That's what I like.

Chris Ryan

It's a great. It's on a great run. So I agree with you. It can feel long, those episodes.

Andy Greenwald

I worry about falling behind. That's the other thing. I was like, should I? We weren't sure if we were going to cover it today. And then I'm with you if you're like, I don't know if it's too late, because piling up four of these could feel heavy.

Chris Ryan

Can be four and a half hours. Yeah.

Andy Greenwald

That's really good.

Chris Ryan

Yeah. Try to keep up. We'll be back on Thursday, special Widow's Bay episode. And hope everybody's having a great World cup and a great first couple weeks of summer.