Will Apple Own the Emmys This Year? Plus, ‘House of the Dragon’ S3E4 With Joanna Robinson.

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Queen Carvania stood haloed by the morning sun. An army hung on her every word.

Chris Ryan

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Joanna Robinson

Pickup fees may apply.

Chris Ryan

I need support staff to clear the room. Stand up and walk now. Hello and welcome to the Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor@theringer.com joining me in the studio bringer her parmander is Joanna Robinson.

Joanna Robinson

Christopher Ryan. What a joy. What a delight. We missed you so much on Talk of Thrones this week.

Chris Ryan

You did an able bodied job replicating my aura. I thought the A's hat was incredible. Great Black CR is definitely a character that either me or Van can experiment with.

Joanna Robinson

Yeah. Which one do you think?

Chris Ryan

I think Van.

Joanna Robinson

Yeah.

Chris Ryan

Okay. We are here on Monday. It's odyssey week. It's World cup week. World cup semis. Tuesday, Wednesday and then the final on Sunday. I know, but there's still television to talk about.

Joanna Robinson

Is it coming home? What do you think?

Chris Ryan

I think that the English national team will beat Argentina. I don't think that they will beat to win the final though. Unless there is like five injuries in the Spain, France match.

Joanna Robinson

Spain, England. Is that your guess?

Chris Ryan

I have Spain winning it before the tournament, so I suppose I should just stick with my prediction.

Joanna Robinson

Why not?

Chris Ryan

You have gotten swept up in World cup fever.

Joanna Robinson

It's the monoculture. I love it.

Chris Ryan

Yeah. There's also just like, it's a really narrative rich tournament, you know, and there's lots of, like, you can watch it and just be like, great game. Or you can watch it and be like, now I need to find out everything about the guy who got sent off from Switzerland for simulation.

Joanna Robinson

And I did.

Commercial Narrator

Yeah.

Joanna Robinson

It said mistaken identity on the caption. And I was like, what's happening here?

Chris Ryan

I wanted to talk to you about a couple things today. I want to chat with you a little bit about the Emmys. Andy ably monologued about it on Thursday or Friday, and he also had Matt and Ben from Star City on to discuss that show, which I thought was extraordinary in its first season, and really hope it comes back. I think Andy and I will talk more in depth about that on Thursday. But I wanted to ask you about the Emmys. Yeah, I wanted to talk to you a little bit about kind of coming out of the Emmys, what we have for the rest of the summer, which is really not very much. And then we could do a little bit of a dragon check in because obviously, you know, you are extensively breaking it down both on Sunday nights and with Mal tomorrow. But.

Joanna Robinson

But I. I need the episode four thoughts.

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Yeah.

Chris Ryan

And I also just think it's like we're about midway through or midway ish. And I think it's a good time to do a check. I. I did some man on the in Philadelphia, and people were surprised at our adoration for three episode three, but generally think this season is awesome.

Joanna Robinson

Okay. But they were like the moody think piece.

Chris Ryan

Yeah. They were like, there's not enough dragons in that one.

Joanna Robinson

Got it.

Chris Ryan

I want. I want.

Joanna Robinson

I want princess to die. And I want ships to burn.

Chris Ryan

Innocent shepherds ignited.

Joanna Robinson

Right.

Chris Ryan

Burnt to a crisp. So let's talk a little bit about the Emmys before we get into the specific shows. I am on the record as saying I don't really think the Emmys have the same value as the Oscars, obviously. I mean, I don't. I don't think that they do and that I am a little bit annoyed at the amount of gymnastics the TV industry seems to be doing for the Emmys and for the scheduling wise Emmy Emmy eligibility window, I suppose one could look at this set of nominees and say, well, that's why they do it. Because there are a couple of shows say task, our beloved task, which I don't think got nearly enough nomin nominations.

Joanna Robinson

Yeah.

Chris Ryan

Or show like industry, which didn't quite, you know, come up against the prime. Prime window. I don't think but then stuff like

Joanna Robinson

the Gilded Age or Pluribus, you know,

Chris Ryan

which now seem to be like kind of. I can see those shows being kind of almost grandfathered in, like stamp that every year, you know.

Joanna Robinson

Gilded Age. Yeah, for sure.

Chris Ryan

As somebody who follows the Oscars quite closely, I do. What's your like vibe on the Emmys? What's your, what's your, how do you feel about the Emmys?

Joanna Robinson

Well, so the, the value I see in the Oscars, I will say is the winners help determine what kind of stories get made. Right. Do you think that there's no correlation between Emmy wins and what kind of stories get made?

Chris Ryan

What an awesome question. I don't. I think that there can be moments in tv, whether it's Lost or Homeland, where you can feel executives turn around and say, where's my version of that? And while those shows I think were recognized for Emmys pretty heavily at various points in their runs, I don't. Was Lost an Emmy show early, early

Joanna Robinson

on first season, I believe.

Chris Ryan

I don't really get the impression that that's driving like the sort of data rich algorithmic streaming programming these days, but I do think that one of the ways in which these streamers have bought their way into Hollywood in general is to go nuts for it for awards.

Joanna Robinson

This is my first FYC season in Los Angeles, so I'm getting to experience it a little differently and see like a bit more of that, of that money and how it's spent. And thinking about Apple specifically, which wasn't the hot, you know, didn't get the most nominees out of the various platforms, but performed quite well in the Emmy nominations this year. Their model right now, which is a huge money loser, right, we assume. Yeah, seems as, as such I, I think the, I think they would report if there was profitability.

Chris Ryan

Yeah, I don't. They're even their most popular show like Ted Lasso for instance, I don't, I don't think would be a drop in the bucket compared to like a Taylor Sheridan show. Personally, I don't.

Joanna Robinson

But it's not even just numbers. It's just like money in money. Like you know, they, they don't have ads and they pour billions of dollars into like billion of the bee into their content. So it's almost like a, if you look at like Apple and Amazon, these are just sort of like, oh, and we have a streamer. You know, we make all of our money on our devices or we make all of our money with people buying toilet paper in Amazon's case. And then also we have a streamer because Tim Cook and Jeff Bezos want to be part of the Hollywood. And so, like Tim Cook say, specifically with Apple wanting to, like, be at the Emmys and be part of the Emmy conversation, obviously Tim Cook's about to not be the chief over there, but Tim Cook wanting to be part of that Hollywood conversation means that Apple is chasing a certain kind of show, which means that the Apple lineup to me right now looks a bit like what HBO did a while ago.

Chris Ryan

Yeah. Or it took the lessons that HBO took, taught, and said, okay, like, what's the. More I don't want to say vanilla, but what's the safer version of this?

Joanna Robinson

Absolutely. I mean, safer, I would agree with. I would even agree with vanilla, honestly. But like, and there are Apple shows that both of us really love. Of course. Yeah, of course. But like. And that star model that they have. But. But as HBO is doing this interesting pivot, and obviously HBO got the highest number of Emmy nominations, so it's not like it's slouching around, but like they're doing this IP pivot, you know, that's part of their new model merger. Yeah. So Apple has an opportunity. And I feel like in the conversations that I've had with people inside of the industry, Apple is chewing up a lot of space in the conversation.

Chris Ryan

Yeah. I would also say for as much as that, they're taking a little bit of this space from hbo, they're filling the vacuum that Netflix seems to have left by more or less pivoting away from prestige Awards driven TV fare. I think every year they still have a couple of movies, movies that they splash around for.

Joanna Robinson

Do you think it was Apple winning the Oscar for Coda? And Netflix is just like this. We've been trying for years.

Chris Ryan

I don't know. I. I will be very interested to see where this conversation is this time next year and where especially the. The movies on Netflix conversation is for this time next year. But I, I do feel like Netflix, while still having two or three very notable releases a year for our purposes, it's fewer and farther in between where I'm like, there's a Netflix show that we need to talk about.

Joanna Robinson

What is the latest you've heard about this idea that there might be an Adolescence season two?

Chris Ryan

I have not heard that.

Joanna Robinson

Yeah, that's in the conversation. And I'm just like, with the same

Chris Ryan

characters or just riffing on similar themes.

Joanna Robinson

Might be anthology, but that sort of shocked me a bit. But, you know, it's like one of the biggest hits they've Ever had.

Chris Ryan

Yeah. I mean, on one hand I can kind of see why. I mean they basically because of when they released it, went on an 18 month award Jag for it. So it's like clearly something that has just been anointed, you know, Jack Thorne, I can't believe he has the time. But Stephen Graham, if he can squeeze that in after Heat too, all the, all power to him.

Joanna Robinson

Yeah.

Chris Ryan

I wanted to ask you about the outstanding drama nominations because that was, let me just call it the noms up here really quickly because that was one

Joanna Robinson

where you threw your computer across the room.

Chris Ryan

I didn't throw anything. I was like, this is sort of what I imagined was gonna happen. You know, there are shows here that I have not gotten a chance to watch or have fallen behind on. So like Diplomat. Phoebe, my wife, loves that show. I have not gotten to see beyond season one.

Joanna Robinson

I think I was a little surprised that the Diplomat was here. I know that it's as it's become increasingly like West Wing methadone, you know, as they just like bring more and more cast members from the West Wing on. Like, I understand that it's maybe feeling a bit. But it's so soapy to me in a way that I was surprised that it's here.

Chris Ryan

Yeah. And then Gilded Age, I think I've loved at various points. I find it eminently watchable and entertaining. But those two are at the top. And then you've got Night of the Seven Kingdoms, Paradise, Season two, Andy and I talked about with amusement, but I don't think was as good as the first season. The P. Pluribus, Slow Horses, your Friends and neighbors. And I wanted to say. Yeah, I was gonna ask you, like, you know, is there any, like, I trade this for that in the outstanding drama that you can think of?

Joanna Robinson

Easy. Your friends and neighbors. It's preposterous that this is here, despite what I just said about Apple. Like, I think that show is terrible and I'm confused why it's here. So like industry is the biggest snub. Obviously I'll come correct on the watch and honor your God, which is industry. But also like, you know, this season of Industry was incredible.

Chris Ryan

Yeah. And it's. I know that Andy. I'm not sure if Andy hit this when he did his pod, but Andy illuminated to me over the weekend when I saw him, he was just kind of like, that's just not something. Like the voting bloc is conservative in so much as like they're not going to go for an overly bleak, nihilistic, fast talking British, like maybe coke drama. I, you know, but I, I, I, I would definitely, I would go as far as to trade off slow horses for industry. Like, I would get rid of one of my darlings.

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Chris Ryan

Yeah.

Joanna Robinson

And then the lowdown I would put in here before I would put the Diplomat or Paradise with love and respect, like, or I'm not really into the golden age personally, but like the Pit being here, Pluribus being here, those two feel incredibly important.

Chris Ryan

And I'm happy for Night of the

Joanna Robinson

Seven Kingdoms and I'm like thrilled for Night of the Seven Kingdoms. I was a little surprised that it didn't get a single acting nom, if they were considering it in this category, that it didn't get a single acting nom. But maybe that's a season two choice. I guess. My other question, and you and I are not Emmy scholars, but is something with industry a bit more like, if they weren't on board from the very beginning with the show, they don't love to get in on it in a

Chris Ryan

later season, I would have to go back and look at how Breaking Bad developed into the Emmy juggernaut that it became. And a lot of that, I think was driven by Cranston and his performance. But was the Netflix bomb Breaking Bad a first season Emmys thing?

Joanna Robinson

I don't think so. And I think, I mean, that just became undeniable in a way that industry unfortunately isn't. Industry is like a smaller, like in terms of numbers. Yeah.

Chris Ryan

I was trying to think of something that would be like aspirational for industry now going into its final season. So it's a little bit beyond the point. But maybe a better comp would be Saul, where I don't think that that had a lot of recognition early on, but then started to towards the end.

Joanna Robinson

And there was a bit for a time of sort of like, it's time for Jon Hamm, you know, it's time for Kyle Chandler or something. You know what I mean? Like, it's time for Matthew Reese with the Americans, you know, so. But I think that has more to do with performance than like they like what the Emmys like to do, the TV Academy like to do is rubber stamp a show from the beginning and then just sort of stick with it.

Chris Ryan

Give it an award for five years. Yeah, yeah. So we've saw that with obviously West Wing. We saw that with Modern Family. You know, there are historic runs that shows go on. I was actually that sort of dovetails nicely into the next thing I wanted to ask you about, which was a show that we obviously both adored and covered extensively. Was Widow's Bay kind of a late breaking show in so much as I think it was still running when voting, when the window closed at least, or, you know, so like a couple of those episodes technically wouldn't be.

Joanna Robinson

I think they could only deliver the first episode I wanted. It's like something like really narrow, highly technical about that.

Chris Ryan

Do you think then that a. Is it like a. Is it a runaway train or is it like a nice, pleasant late surprise? Like is. Because Widows by Bay, by far among people I talk to, is the most beloved new show of the year.

Joanna Robinson

Yes.

Chris Ryan

And so I didn't know whether that would necessarily translate to voting.

Joanna Robinson

I wasn't surprised that it got nominated. I was not surprised that Matthew Reese getting nominated felt like a lock to me. Him getting double nominated is fascinating. Kato Flynn, I was like, pretty sure. But Dale Dickey getting nominated, I think is. That's when you get really excited for it.

Chris Ryan

Yeah. Linklater and Gilpin do guest nods. Yeah.

Joanna Robinson

Like when they start to dominate in the guest category, the White Lotus phenomenon or the Pit phenomenon, where it's just sort of like, how many actors from the show can we.

Chris Ryan

There's three or four supporting actress in the pit.

Joanna Robinson

Four. But not hesitate for some reason.

Chris Ryan

Yeah.

Joanna Robinson

Yeah. And so it's just sort of like that when you start to nominate sort of down the cast list, that's when it's not just sort of like, oh, a shiny new thing. Fluke. It's. Let's take this seriously. And if I were hbo, so certain that hacks, the final season of Hacks, which also got heavily, heavily nominated, hugely nominated. But if I were so certain that like, you know, Jean Smart was again gonna win and et cetera, et cetera, I would put a little bit more oomph behind my campaign.

Chris Ryan

Yeah. I, you know, so the other comedy, outstanding comedies, Nominator, nobody wants this. The Bear Abbott shrinking, Only Murders and the aforementioned hacks and Only Murders is

Joanna Robinson

one of those where, like they decided early on only Murders and they've just.

Chris Ryan

They really want Steve Martin and Martin Short to come to the.

Joanna Robinson

Here it is.

Chris Ryan

But if. If you'd asked me three months ago or two months ago, I would have just been like, yeah, this is hax Victory lap. And like the sort of great bear war is over. And you know that hacks won and can write.

Joanna Robinson

They won that whisper campaign of Is this really a con?

Chris Ryan

Yeah, it wasn't that much of a whisper shout campaign.

Joanna Robinson

Yeah.

Chris Ryan

But I do wonder whether or not the sheer excitement Around Widow's Bay, around something new, around something tonally a little bit different from stuff that's come out maybe over the last couple of years is like significant enough to push it. I think that there will be. It's not going to be like a clean sweep for hacks, I don't think.

Joanna Robinson

I would love to see that. I would love to see more division. It really gets so boring at the Emmys when it's just sort of like the Pit wins everything and hacks wins everything and you just sort of zone out in the beginning of the ceremony and don't tune back in, basically. But like, if it's. If it's parceled out a bit more like, Jean Smart should get her umpteenth Emmy. She should get it. So should Hannah Einbinder. But I would not be upset if, like a Cat o' Flynn who just like came out of nowhere absolutely crushed it. Everyone is obsessed with her. That would just be really fun and sort of like a handing off of the baton of just sort of like Hax is bowing out. Widow's Bay is fresh and brand new.

Chris Ryan

I also kind of want this to happen for Widow's Bay because it doesn't feel like it's going to be ready until, I mean, at the very least late next year, I would imagine.

Joanna Robinson

Wouldn't it be fun if it was a Halloween show?

Chris Ryan

It would be, but she's just starting to write it, I think. Kate.

Joanna Robinson

Yes. Yeah, I think that's true. But also, isn't it true that she's like, had at least had like ideas in the tank for a long time? I think you're probably right, but I am trying to be optimistic about shows coming back and this idea of like the pitification, I guess is what we're calling it. But like, how excited are we to people who talk a lot about television that next January, if all goes according to plan, we get another season of Night of the Seven Kingdoms and we get the Pit starting its several month run and it's just sort of like those are two great shows at the top of the year that we can

Chris Ryan

feel confident and we could get tasked relatively soon after that.

Joanna Robinson

That would be thrilling, I guess.

Chris Ryan

No, probably not until like summer.

Joanna Robinson

I would imagine it would be a great summer show. Yeah, all that quarry.

Chris Ryan

I guess we gotta get back to the. We gotta get back to rock diving.

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Chris Ryan

you know, the limited series has been a category in flux. I would say there's no White Lotus this year to dominate it, I suppose. But Shogun moving out of limited. Didn't it move out of limited anthology into outstanding drama the year that at one and its return is I suppose still imminent. But like, I don't know when.

Joanna Robinson

Yeah, they're still filming, I believe so late next year.

Chris Ryan

Next year. And then Task announcing that it was going to be a continuing series rather than a limited series tweaks this limited series category. And I do wonder if Task Would have walked this if it had just been like a one off, like Mare style. Although, you know, with Julianne Nicholson coming now, everything is. How excited are you now? Everything is an ongoing series. I'm very excited. Is Love Story just gonna walk this category because of its popularity? What do you think is gonna happen here?

Joanna Robinson

I would have said possibly yes, except he didn't get nominated.

Chris Ryan

Oh, yeah.

Joanna Robinson

And that's. I mean, I think sort of deservedly so. But I would. I would love for, like Constance Zimmer to win for that show. I did not love that show at all, but I thought there were a couple great performances. I liked Beef Season two a lot more than a lot of people did. So, you know anything.

Chris Ryan

I like Beef Season two a lot.

Joanna Robinson

It got pretty well nominated as well. But yeah, it's a very funky year for that category.

Chris Ryan

Yeah, I can't tell. I can't get a feel for the DTF fandom or the. The feeling of DTF among the awards block.

Joanna Robinson

Yeah, Bateman is always like a real power player in the awards and he's

Chris Ryan

running for Black Rabbit, I think, in some one of those categories. But I was, I was struck by, you know, when we were talking about it and Andy and I were a little bit dismissive, I admit, but it was just like the passion with which people responded to us being like, no, you've got to keep giving it a chance. You've got to keep giving it. Yeah, dtf.

Joanna Robinson

We got so many emails. Why aren't you covering dtf? What's wrong with you?

Chris Ryan

And I think Steve Conrad has, like a really dedicated fan base, but this went beyond that. I think this, this really caught on with some people. You mentioned Beef Beast in Me, I think could also be a surprise here.

Joanna Robinson

People liked that.

Chris Ryan

Yeah, I thought it was entertaining.

Joanna Robinson

Like, with a lot of limited series, especially a Netflix limited series, I'm like, there are episodes I really liked.

Chris Ryan

Yeah.

Joanna Robinson

You know, like if you put Claire Danes and Matthew Rhys in a room and let them cook for an episode, that's great. And then elsewise, you're like, I mean, I'm going through this with Cape Fear right now. But like, why? You're like, why isn't this many episodes? Why isn't this a movie? Riz Ahmed getting nominated for Bait, I was really happy to see. That was cool because I really liked that show and that was just like a huge passion project for a performer that I really liked.

Chris Ryan

Yeah, I was very happy to see him in the Digger trailer, seemingly really understanding the assignment, maybe even more than some of the other people in that movie. I was curious where your head was at now that we've kind of gotten out on the other side of the Emmy eligibility calendar. Part of the calendar. And now we're entering into this sort of summer and I don't know why I have this association over the last 10 years. Like really for the. Almost the entire time I've been doing the POD with Andy, that summer's busy. The Game of Thrones is on or you know, there's. There's a couple of shows on during the summer that keep people really occupied and then that there is more of like this 12 month TV calendar. And now I almost feel like we are reverting back to pre streaming.

Joanna Robinson

Yeah. Remember when there was no TV is

Chris Ryan

a September to May activity and. And the summers are essentially a ghost. Ghost town.

Joanna Robinson

Yeah.

Chris Ryan

It kind of feels like that's where we're going again.

Joanna Robinson

I mean as the whole thing is swinging back to as like, didn't Netflix just announced that they're introducing like channels, Always on channels.

Chris Ryan

Yeah, yeah.

Joanna Robinson

I mean we're just trying to reinvent the thing that we fled from in the first place. My understanding is that part of that is as these various streamers move from subscribers at any cost to fuck. We actually have to make a profit. That's changing their sort of throw anything at the wall and see if it sticks. Which goes back to your question about limited series. Because what I've heard is that nobody wants a limited series anymore. Right. Because you can't build a library off of a limited series. You can't get that sort of second season, pop off a limited series, all this sort of stuff. And so it's not profitable. It was all the rage. And when it was in its heyday, like when you and I at different outlets were covering True Detective and Fargo and all the rest. And I think you and I and

Chris Ryan

like the Night of or whatever.

Sponsor Announcer

Yeah.

Joanna Robinson

And I think you and I, as fans of the British TV models, I mean, I'll just speak for myself. I got, I was like, yeah, do what British TV does so well. But it's not turning. It's. It's almost like British TV is on a government model. They're. They're not turning a profit. Right. And so they're sort of like, okay, this is too expensive.

Chris Ryan

Well, it's now. And when you look at. Because when I was looking at what's coming out this summer.

Joanna Robinson

Yeah.

Chris Ryan

And there's a couple of Apple, specifically Apple bringing over British made series and there's been some Talk in British media about, like, is the BBC or the Are. Is our television industry essentially a feeder system for Hollywood? Now Apple and Netflix, which I'm sure is profitable for the. You know, because they are not dealing with the same economic model that the American film television industry are. But I don't know. I mean, I think that on one hand, I kind of welcome the break of there not being like an always like 12 month a year, constant rush of TV shows, but I now almost think they've overcorrected and there's like a huge dead zone here for somebody to be like, why don't we put this here? Yeah, yeah, like in the next couple of weeks. This is what's coming out soon.

Joanna Robinson

I mean, from what I can tell, that's why we're covering Cave Fear.

Chris Ryan

Exactly.

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Yeah.

Chris Ryan

That's why we spent 10 weeks doing Star City, eight weeks lucky, Ted Lasso. Those are Apple summer shows. Lucky and Ted Lasso. And then Slow Horses comes out in September. But Slow Horses at this point is like, you've either got season tickets or you don't like. Netflix has the Hawk, which has been on the stove for a while. It's the Will Ferrell golf comedy that Ramy Youssef had been involved with and now has different.

Joanna Robinson

And can't throw a rock in this town without hitting a billboard for it.

Chris Ryan

Exactly. And the only other thing that jumped out at me, aside from tires, season three was the bombing Panam 103, which I think only appeals to us because of the cast.

Joanna Robinson

Connor swindles.

Chris Ryan

Connor swindles. Eddie Marzan, Peter Mullen, Merritt Weaver and Patrick J. Adams. What a lineup. But it looks like a very, very procedural, like Tik Tok of this tragedy. And I don't really know like. Like how much ground. There was already a Lockerbie miniseries, I think that was on Peacock with Colin Firth like a year or two ago. That's what I saw for them. It's also six episodes, which may be a bit long for that story, but I don't remember.

Joanna Robinson

Because it should be a movie.

Chris Ryan

Yes. Yeah, probably.

Joanna Robinson

We love television, but so many of these things should be movies.

Chris Ryan

Paramount, basically, Lioness Season three, which that's for you, obviously, I'm very excited about. But that's it for that.

Joanna Robinson

Say thank you, Paramount.

Chris Ryan

Thank you. Thank you, Daddy David, for serving me. FX has the shards.

Joanna Robinson

Yeah.

Chris Ryan

Ryan Murphy's adaptation of Bret Easton ellis's novel.

Joanna Robinson

Yeah.

Chris Ryan

HBO's got lanterns. Unless I'm. Unless I missed something.

Joanna Robinson

No, absolutely not.

Chris Ryan

And those are shards and lanterns and adults And a bunch of that stuff is like, later in August.

Joanna Robinson

Yeah, exactly. And it's not like they got out of the way for something. Do they get out of the way of the Odyssey? I don't know. What's the World cup like? I've. No, I've. No, I don't. I've not experienced a summer like this in a long time in terms of like, looking at what to cover and being completely baffled.

Chris Ryan

I would love to know the algorithm of like, this is why we have to put 10 shows out on Apple in two months, but then one or two shows for June, for late June, July and the beginning of August.

Joanna Robinson

But I mean, they did, you know, they had maximum pleasure, guaranteed. Cape Fear. Lucky.

Chris Ryan

Star City.

Joanna Robinson

Star City. I'm sorry. But I did watch the first episode of Star City. I enjoyed it. I did really like it. But I was also like, oh, this is made in a lab for you. So I understood why it's Russian and.

Chris Ryan

Or.

Joanna Robinson

Yeah, exactly. I was like, oh, it's the lives of others. Great. I had a great time. The shards I'm fascinated by. I'm fascinated by this YA show swing that's happening that Apple apparently doesn't want anything to do with. But Amazon is leaning all the way in. Right. Like, they're like, this is our brand now.

Chris Ryan

All I hear is people humping. Not me involved, but like coming out of Phoebe, watching off the television. Yeah.

Joanna Robinson

Young people humping. Yeah, it's, it's, it's.

Chris Ryan

She's a hockey player and she's this. And yeah, I'm just like, okay, like, let's, let's give it a shot, I suppose.

Joanna Robinson

Um, I, Yeah, I don't know what to tell you. Like, it's fascinating but, but what I will say to all the people who run streamers who are listening to this podcast, what an opportunity you have next summer to absolutely own the space. If you want to.

Chris Ryan

Yeah, it'll be. I, I can't tell the way Sean kind of has a feel for production cycles, release schedule cycles on the big picture and like, what's happening in Hollywood and why people are clearing weekend but coming hard for this weekend and whether or not something that is August, the new dump youary kind of thing. I don't really have a feel for that. I would imagine these companies are pretty sophisticated at this point. They must have data that suggests like, well, let's steer clear of late July. Everybody's gone. But I don't, I don't know.

Joanna Robinson

Possibly. But also I think it goes back to that whole, like, you know, and this is what Sean is talking about a lot recently on the Big Pick where. Where it's just like audiences will no longer just eat crap. Right. They have had a decade plus of crap of like, we made whatever and we're gonna throw it at the wall and see what sticks. And they're getting tired of it and they want things that are actually good. And that is slowing down. That is slowing down the entire. I mean, we're in post peak TV now, right. We're in a contraction era.

Chris Ryan

I feel like we're in something of a. A swoon.

Joanna Robinson

Yeah.

Chris Ryan

I think, I think between. I think between, like the feeling that something is going to change with the merger.

Joanna Robinson

Yes.

Chris Ryan

I think getting out from under, like the extraordinary spending, but also like the weird, like, arms race that happened between all these upstart streamers. I think everybody is kind of like, there's a kind of show that people are happy to have on but don't really feel the need to talk about. Or at least they don't talk about it to me. Like, people don't come up to me to talk about all her fault people, you know?

Joanna Robinson

Right. But like, that means. Does that mean the battle is won but we have to win the war differently? Do you know?

Chris Ryan

Well, I guess it depends on what's your goal. Like, is the goal to have something like Widow's Bay that feels like actual. The closest thing we have to a water cooler show in the last couple of months? Is the goal just for everybody to, like, make money and keep people blithely entertained? Allah, it's 1980 and my stories are on. And, you know, if that's the case, like, that's why Chloe Sevigne is in Five Star Weekend, you know, because she's like, it's a good paycheck. My mom gets to watch it. Like, people enjoy this stuff.

Joanna Robinson

Like, is Netflix most of all is confusing to me because, like, once again, we don't have Nielsen ratings really, on these. In these places to track things, we have to take their word for it in certain things. And every time I open up the Netflix homepage and look at the top 10 of what everyone's watching, and I'm like, but people aren't talking about this, you know?

Chris Ryan

Well, cause they're also watching it completely on their own schedule. In their own.

Joanna Robinson

On their own schedule. But like. But also second screening, barely watching. It's just noise that's on, you know, and so it's not permeating in any kind of way. And so that doesn't lend itself to the longevity or the loyalty that something like the Pit will or otherwise.

Chris Ryan

Yeah, I mean, even with the Pit, I, you know, anecdotally knew people who would wait till there was five or six episodes stored up to start watching the Pit so that they could binge. You know what I mean? Like, I think that people's television viewing habits have changed so profoundly and they've gotten so wise, like, you know, fantasy avoiding and, or spoilers for like a year and a half is stunning to me. That he was able to be like, man, season two of Andor was incredible. And I'm like, you heard of it? You didn't know what happened. You didn't hear about like that big part. And that's a guy who's really online. So I think people have gotten pretty good at being like, I'll bookmark this and get to it when I want to get to it.

Joanna Robinson

Yeah. And then what you have to create, I mean, whatever. I'm just telling them to make old fashioned television, as I always do. But you have to create a sense of urgency. If I don't watch the Pit, then I don't get to talk to everyone about the Pit and have an opinion on the Pit. And what I hear so often from our listeners is, and this is very as much true for House of R as anything else is, I want to wait until the season's over and hear what everyone thinks, whether or not they thought it was good before I even start it. Cause is this gonna fall off a cliff? Am I gonna start something and it's gonna fall off a cliff? And I feel like I invested all this time and I wasted my time. So I'll just wait till everyone watches all of Lanterns, for example, or Spider Noir or whatever it is and start it and then they either don't get to it or everyone's watching on their own speed, you know what I mean? But once you're three seasons into the Pit, is that still how you approach the Pit?

Chris Ryan

That'll be really fascinating also, like, will people be like, okay, I've seen all the Pitt's tricks.

Joanna Robinson

Sure.

Chris Ryan

You know what I mean?

Joanna Robinson

Possibly. But like, if you make it through the sophomore, the potential sophomore slump, which the Pit did not experience, then it just becomes a show everyone, increasingly everyone watches.

Chris Ryan

Right. I mean, like that, that's why we remember television.

Joanna Robinson

Yeah.

Chris Ryan

I mean, I think that like, that's why a show like succession is like more of a miracle than it is commonplace, you know what I mean? That shows builds and builds and builds, is able to Consistently surprise people with things that happen on screen that still feel very much part of the fabric of the story it's telling.

Joanna Robinson

Right. Narratively. Yeah.

Commercial Narrator

Yeah.

Chris Ryan

But feel like I gotta go home and watch Succession tonight because I don't want people to be making bore on the floor jokes at the office. And I don't know what they're talking about. Bleak summer. But we still have hot House of the Dragon for a couple more weeks.

Joanna Robinson

Nft, baby.

Chris Ryan

I did not share my feelings with you on Talk of the Thrones. I thought this was like a really good episode. I think not quite as. I didn't have the same feeling for it that I did about three. This was a real like, damn ravens really be flying everywhere. Because there was a lot of like a raven has told me that this is happening. And I'm like, these ravens, like kind of almost like emails, you know, last

Joanna Robinson

week you're like, why are people flying their dragons? This week you're like, ravens. Yeah, they should fly everywhere.

Chris Ryan

You know, this was, I guess in some ways like a James Norton showcase episode.

Joanna Robinson

That's 100% what it was.

Chris Ryan

And we also really. We got to see Darren. I liked up until even the frame before he was like, darren, come here. You're like, that's Darren. I know that's Darren. You can't trick me twice.

Joanna Robinson

When your guy Brasso from Andor John Roxton walks in, he's like, my prince.

Chris Ryan

Yes, that was cool.

Joanna Robinson

We wound up talking largely about James Norton's character Ormond Hightower and Daeron Targaryen. And I just think it's really exciting in the third season of a show that I've always quite liked to get characters that feel so urgent and exciting and new.

Chris Ryan

Yes.

Joanna Robinson

I am deeply emotionally invested in Daeron Targaryen for some reason. Like, I just think. Did you watch Bly Manor at all on Netflix? Okay, is Darren on Bly Manor? That kid was on Bly Manor and he played like.

Chris Ryan

Wait, the Flanagan thing? Yeah, I must have. I mean, I've seen. I think I've seen all the Flanagan.

Joanna Robinson

It was the second one after Hella.

Chris Ryan

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, I saw that.

Joanna Robinson

Yeah. So there's two kids in that show and he was one of them. And they get possessed by ghosts at a certain point and they're so scary. Yeah, the turn of the screw Henry James sort of thing. And so he was so creepy and so good in that. And he's gonna be link in the Zelda movie, which I have some questions about as well. But this kid is someone to Watch. And I just find him really. He's fantastic. And that character is a character we don't really have haven't had on House of the Dragon. Feels much more like a Thrones character than House of the Dragon.

Chris Ryan

I was gonna ask the Ormond Darren stuff felt very well written, but in a way that didn't feel entirely tethered to like text.

Joanna Robinson

You know, what's interesting is that episode was written by David Hancock who you called out last season, who was on the crown. And you called last season as like an elevation in the language and stuff like that. And so I do think it's interesting that they brought him on for this and he'll be on another episode this season, but brought him back to really, really interest. Introduce us to this kind of crown esque storyline over here in Tumbleton.

Chris Ryan

I thought, you know, for as repulsive as Ormond is articulating like some anti Targaryen sentiment in a, in a way that sort of would, would fit with highborn Westerosi people where they're just like, I can't believe we're all dying because these incestuous maniacs are burning each everybody. Although he also has some other hotter takes about.

Joanna Robinson

Yeah, he does. No, I mean, I think it's interesting because I don't know what this is about me. Something that the House of the Dragon has always offered up to us is a complicated conflict where there are good points made on both sides and there isn't, you know, you've always been Team Green, but there isn't supposed to be like a dyed in the wool villain and a clear hero. It's trying to give you something emotionally complex. And then all of a sudden like Ormund Hightower shows up like a villain, a real villain shows up and I'm really. And maybe I'm just like, I'm just really excited and I'm like, oh no. Do I need basic like good versus evil in order to feel a certain way about Westeros? I don't know.

Chris Ryan

Yeah, they did some really nice fake outs in this episode. I thought Ormund him bringing back the Hugh Hammer's brother. Hugh Hammer's brother in law.

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Exactly.

Joanna Robinson

Also from Andor.

Chris Ryan

Yeah, that's right. And executing him or having Darren pop his cherry. Execution cherry. I also thought that the Daemon Reyna scene was quite good and gave that character a slightly different pitch to throw, which I thought was welcome. Daemon is among my favorite reasons for watching the show and Matt Smith's performance, but having him just be like, God, what do I have to do to Save this Girl's Life and was just an excellent scene and an excellent piece of plot mechanics, I thought.

Joanna Robinson

I think this season is already so much better than season two. And I'm curious to see if we feel like we continue to climb or, you know, I don't know what the, like, even the people who reviewed this season, I think only got the first four episodes, so I don't know what the back half is going to do.

Chris Ryan

I saw on Vulture, Vulture's recap foregrounded the like, I was told there would be battles sentiment. It was kind of like I thought after last season and all the throat clearing, like we were gonna get some real, like some action. And I think that will inevitably be the second half of the season. I don't know how much longer we're gonna have to wait. But it's weird because it's like, I, I, I do know what's going to happen.

Joanna Robinson

Yeah. You read the wikis.

Chris Ryan

I've read the wikis, you know, and so I, I'm kind of like, it's, it's funny to not have any kind of like mystery to it, but also like a lot of anticipation for, for some of these sequences that I think are coming up.

Joanna Robinson

But what's interesting about wiki reading or even Fire and Blood reading is that it doesn't, you know, like, there's so little content in episodes three and four that are from the book Fire and Blood, you know. And so, you know, our whole shtick of like, let's explain what happened in the book versus the show. You have to like, sort of think outside the box in terms of how you cover it. And that's exciting for us because we don't know. We know what happens, but we don't really know how it happens. And I can't wait to find out.

Chris Ryan

Do you think that, Cause, you know, we have House of the Dragon, we're gonna get another season of that. We have Young Egg on Night of the Seven Kingdoms, although not really full blown maniac Targaryen yet. And we might have Aegon's Conquest as a movie.

Joanna Robinson

Yeah.

Chris Ryan

If I had told you 15 years ago.

Joanna Robinson

15. Okay.

Chris Ryan

Well, however long ago, when Thrones debuted, 10, 15 years ago that the Thrones project would be so Targaryen based, would you have been like, that makes sense because that's what a lot of the text is about.

Joanna Robinson

Well, no, only because George hadn't published Fire and Blood at that point and hadn't made it clear that like Targaryen history was something that he was interested in. He had done Duncan Egg, but, like, Duncan Egg doesn't feel like a Targaryen story at all. And then he had written. He wrote this, like, wiki ed book, you know, like a reference book almost, that has some of the Targaryen history in it, but, like, leaning into Fire and Blood, that being the only thing he's published since the Dance of Dragons, which is insane. Gives them the best material to adapt.

Chris Ryan

You know what I mean? Other, like Stark or Lannister.

Joanna Robinson

Yeah, well, they were supposed to do the, like, Corliss Conquering the World show. There's a, like, Night Myria show. Like, there's just been a lot of shows that they've floated. But. But, like, my understanding, immediately after Thrones ended, there were people who wanted to do Dunk an Egg right away. And HBO said, we want dragons. So if you're gonna have dragons, you gotta have Targaryens. So that's where we are.

Chris Ryan

I mean, I would love it if there was, like, another thing in development that was maybe a little bit less blonde.

Joanna Robinson

Well, you know, I think what really excites me about Duncan A working as well. Nine of the Seven Kingdoms working as well as it did and getting Emmy nominated is, like, the possibility of the powers that be at hbo thinking, okay, where else in Westeros can we go that feels a little smaller but more approachable and exciting for people? And there's this, you know, there's this play debuting in Stratford, I wanna say, or was in Oxford, I can't remember. They're doing a stage show called the Mad King, which. So that's Targaryen related, but it's about the tourney at Harrenhal, which is kind of what kicked off the whole Roberts Rebellion war. But, like, that's kind of. Even though it's called the Mad King, not really a Targaryen story. And so that's, like, pretty exciting that they're exploring that.

Chris Ryan

I wonder, do you want to go

Joanna Robinson

with Mallory and me to go see it? Sure. Okay.

Chris Ryan

Great. In England. Yeah, I'll do anything in England.

Joanna Robinson

Great.

Chris Ryan

Yeah, that's what I was told. I wonder whether or not. I'm very curious to know because, like, you know, to the extent that I can tell, I think House of the Dragon is very. Well, like, lots of people are watching it.

Joanna Robinson

Yes.

Chris Ryan

You know, I'm always fascinated as I. As I see people greet the Avengers Doomsday concept art, which may or may not be official or whatever it was with sort of like, oh, okay, yeah. And reactions to the Russo's quotes and stuff like, that being like, you guys aren't done this movie yet. This is coming out like, two months.

Joanna Robinson

Yeah. What does that tell you?

Chris Ryan

Well, I wonder whether Thrones will ever go the way of, like, it had its moment and then it goes. Or is this, like, how durable is this storytelling if George doesn't finish the books and. Or suggests something that happens after Jon Snow goes north, unlike Mar.

Joanna Robinson

Like, what's your count? So, Marvel, you're like, it had its moment and now it's sort of running on fumes to a certain degree. Although I am very excited for the Paul Bettany Vision show, personally. And also Wonder man got a great Emmy nomination. Yeah, he's amazing. That show. That was fantastic. But I won't disagree that Marvel's running on fumes right now. But what's the world that, you know, Star wars endured in its own way, like? So is it just, we need a galaxy, a galaxy far, far away to play with a Westeros. A galaxy far, far.

Chris Ryan

Yeah, I think there's always going to be a fascination. I mean, I think that you. We would probably look back on this time period and be like, Dune was also quite dominant for eight years or however long it's gonna be, or actually more like. Like five or six years. Right?

Joanna Robinson

Yeah. Pretty fast clip.

Chris Ryan

You know, there. There are different pieces of IP that reign supreme at any given moment. I think one thing that's marked a lot of these things is that they have to go away for a while for people to miss them. And that's something that I don't think that the people who own the rights to these things are willing to do right anymore.

Joanna Robinson

They're like you used to, but, like. Well, I think. Okay, so here's. I think the problem with Marvel vs. A problem with Marvel vs. Westeros is that Marvel's intention is for everything to click together in place. And so that means, despite them saying, oh, Black Panther is so different, or this is so, you know, Dr. Strange is a horror or something like that, there's, you know, homogenous nature to Marvel that the Westeros space shows don't have to have. And so the best example of that is Knight of Seven Kingdoms, which does feel extremely, tonally different, if not formally not, well, formally different than Thrones did. Hot D is trying to be more Thrones. Like.

Chris Ryan

Yes.

Joanna Robinson

But if we're thinking of an Aegon Conquest movie and a Mad King play and a comedy like 907 Kingdoms, it just means that Westeros is a place where you can tell all kinds of stories, especially if you're not trying to make them click together.

Chris Ryan

Yes. I mean, there's also, like, something fascinating about the fact that for a lot of these stories or a lot of these franchises, they do have, like, a demarcated like this. And this is when the story ends. Like, not only is Thrones not finished, but we have an idea. We know, like, they won. You know, like the.

Joanna Robinson

One of my favorite reactions to the episode two of the season of hotd, when Rhaenyra takes the King's Landing, they're like, all this for Bran to wind

Chris Ryan

up on the throne.

Joanna Robinson

You know, like, all of this fuss, and then Bran's gonna sit on the throne.

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So.

Joanna Robinson

But it. But I don't. You know, obviously HOTD is not as big as Thrones was at its peak. Night of the Seven Kingdoms is much beloved, but also a much smaller show. So definitely the ending of Thrones and House of Dragons season one, not quite scratching that itch for people, has shrunk. It's not like the audience has grown, it has contracted, but it's still like a very healthy audience.

Sponsor Announcer

Oh, yeah.

Chris Ryan

And I think that one thing I sometimes don't really understand until I, like, leave Los Angeles is how many people out there are like, oh, I've read those books, like, 10 times.

Joanna Robinson

Yeah.

Chris Ryan

Like, you know, I. I know you and Mallory have, but I don't know, sometimes, like, when I'm in a bar and somebody's like, well, I've. I've read. I've read it. I might just reread it to get ready for this or whatever. You know what I mean? Like, it's. It is. It is a fandom that is pretty profound.

Joanna Robinson

It's true. But, like, that was also true of Wheel of Time and then that just. You know what I mean? But I think Dune is a good comp for that in terms of people will just read Dune over and over and over and over and over again.

Chris Ryan

I mean, Dune is almost the inversion of Marvel, because they were like, we have a filmmaker who's very special, and because of that filmmaker, this cast will do it, and we are going to make this happen in a very condensed period of time.

Joanna Robinson

Right. But also, Denis is not saying, I'm going to adapt every Dune book.

Chris Ryan

No.

Joanna Robinson

He's like, I'm doing the first two, and then we're done. That's what we're doing. We're doing a trilogy. And Will Warner. Okay, well, they did, right?

Chris Ryan

Yeah.

Joanna Robinson

We got the Bene Gesserit show, which did not work, you know.

Chris Ryan

So are you excited for Dune?

Joanna Robinson

3 hugely excited. And I mean, I love the Odyssey. We're going to cover it extensively on House of Ari. You're going to cover it on the big pick. But like the Odyssey, I consider the Odyssey genre ip.

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Sure.

Joanna Robinson

So I think Project Hail Mary, the Odyssey and Dune 3 being like the 1, 2, 3 of this 10 poles of this year is good news for quality sort of genre adaptation.

Chris Ryan

Yeah. But they increasingly seem to be big scream, you know, I know. It's just been a minute since, I mean, like, even I was trying to think of, like any. I don't even think there is a Star Wars TV show. Live action TV show. Is Ahsoka doing another season?

Joanna Robinson

Yes.

Chris Ryan

Okay. Is that this year or next year?

Joanna Robinson

Next year. It's definitely next year. Yeah.

Chris Ryan

Is there another one in, like, in the.

Joanna Robinson

Well, yeah. Well, it's like there's no Star Trek project in the works. There's no Doctor who. Like, this is, I think, the first time in, I don't know, 50 years that there isn't either a doctor who or a Star Trek project in the works.

Chris Ryan

Interesting.

Joanna Robinson

Yeah. It's a big weird time.

Chris Ryan

I hope nothing really bad happened the last time that occurred. Joanie, thank you so much for joining me.

Joanna Robinson

Oh, my God, what a thrill.

Chris Ryan

Thanks to Kaya and Kai and Sarah. We'll be back on Thursday with Andy covering a bunch of stuff that we missed. Everybody have a wonderful World cup semifinals. Any predictions?

Joanna Robinson

I'm going to go Argentina, spring, Spain. That's what I think. But you're the expert. That's what everyone thinks.

Chris Ryan

These are the best four teams in the world. And I think that this is like, really, really tight on both sides.

Joanna Robinson

Yeah, yeah. But it was interesting. The Argentina Swiss game, like, they had some momentum.

Chris Ryan

They did.

Joanna Robinson

They were sweating.

Chris Ryan

They did. Big Gianni came in and was just like, that's. We got. We got to get these guys out of here. I can't have the Swiss in the semifinals. We'll talk to you guys on Thursday.