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Jon Stewart

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Roger Bennett

You could. John Latan and Alexi were available.

Jon Stewart

It's really all about the, the emphasis. That's exactly right. Roger Bennett, founder of the Fantastic Men and Blazers Media Network, and Tariq Pon, a global sports correspondent, New York Times. Gentlemen, what the heck? First of all, Roger, it is such a delight to have you on the program and to see you by your. Your iconic map.

Roger Bennett

Well, with a map and Tariq to

Jon Stewart

have you in your iconic fleabag motel.

Tariq Panja

That's about right.

Jon Stewart

Wherever they're putting you up. I don't know what the New York Times budget is for sports reporting, but

Tariq Panja

I need your help.

Jon Stewart

I don't know, man.

Tariq Panja

You tell them. You tell them, Joe.

Jon Stewart

It's good to see you both.

Roger Bennett

John. It's good to be with you. It's not often both of us are with a footballing icon. 10 goals, 12 assists for the William and Mary Tribe.

Jon Stewart

Oh, you got the stats.

Roger Bennett

I've got. I mean everybody, everyone's talking about it. When they think about you, they think about you as like the man you are, the conscience of America. But I think more people know you as just that hard hitting midfielder. And the coach, Albert, an iconic legend, the man who really made football go in this country. No, that is special.

Jon Stewart

Now Roger, I do want to explain.

Roger Bennett

Yes, obviously you've got beautiful legs because I've seen the photos. You got an incredible pair of like when you look at those legs, what

Jon Stewart

do you think I called them getaway sticks back in those days. The Roger is quoting my, my college stats. 10 goals, 12 assists. The only thing that I do want to say in soccer's defense, that was over 20 years.

Roger Bennett

That's as long as the World cup is now.

Jon Stewart

It took me a while to accumulate those stats is what I'm saying.

Roger Bennett

I know, but you're going to know when. Back in the day when we all started doing this talking about football in America and we think about guess like it was you.

Jon Stewart

It was like Kyle wrote is me and Kyle wrote junior and that was it. Me and Ricky Davis. Yeah, and. And Muchie Myernick and. And that was about the end of it.

Roger Bennett

And Primo Levy and. And yeah, we could never get rote. But you were, you were like an early, early, early, early lover of the game. In all seriousness, I love that I

Jon Stewart

was raised in a town where it was very much Italian immigrants, Polish immigrant. They, they brought soccer to Central Jersey, imported it. You know, that was the thing we had. You know, there's a famous bridge where I grew up in Trenton called what the world. What Trenton makes the world takes will take. Tariq. Didn't you do your research on this?

Tariq Panja

Guys, I've kind of look at Rogers.

Jon Stewart

Roger is running circles around us right now.

Tariq Panja

Well, I just think of Rogers making up American sounding names.

Jon Stewart

No, he is. Can I tell you something? He is nailing. He has clearly gone on some kind of William and Mary soccer Wikipedia page.

Roger Bennett

What are you talking about? This is like when you, when you meet Pele, when you meet Maradona. You don't have to research them, you know. Cause you've lived it. I'm watching you and the Albert. I want to know when you do look at those photos. Cause the shorts were short, the thighs were popping. They were, they were popping.

Jon Stewart

Roger. It was a different style back then.

Roger Bennett

I know, but it was very. I mean I don't know if you can pop it up on this podcast because it might not be so save for work. But I look at Them. And I think, God, that is beautiful. That is incredibly American.

Jon Stewart

They were solid.

Roger Bennett

I also think, man, death comes for us all. Like, we're all gonna die.

Jon Stewart

Oh, my brother, let me tell you something. When I look at those pictures and I look at myself now, I think, why did I. Why do I sleep in a meat dehydrator? That's such a mistake. That was such a mistake on. On my part. Tariq. He's not even. It is true. He's not doing, you know, research. He probably remembers our famous match against Longwood.

Roger Bennett

Don't get me started.

Jon Stewart

1982.

Roger Bennett

And the coach, Albert and.

Jon Stewart

And. And coach. He knows the three names. Tariq, you're.

Roger Bennett

You're, like, bleeding from your mouth. You were like, coach, pull me back in.

Jon Stewart

How do you think when. When you think back to those matches, do you believe American football? Soccer has come a long way. Tariq, as you watch the American team play, do you see advances in our style of play? I. I find it fascinating. I remember the days when our best player was always the keeper, whether it Brad Friedel, whether it Tony Meola. And now we're playing an attacking form of soccer. Tariq, is. Is it hard to see this from the Americans? Do you fear us now? Are you. Are you fearful of our squad?

Roger Bennett

Do you fear us, of the Germans, will fear us?

Tariq Panja

In a word, no. But it is exciting. It is exciting to see. It is great.

Jon Stewart

How about. How about in two words?

Tariq Panja

No, not really. Look, I think. I think World Cups are great when the hosts are doing well and you've got here, you've got the U.S. mexico and Canada, and they've all kind of shown up. And I've got an apology to make, because on our podcast and on the daily before the tournament, I said, this is not a good football team. And there is a huge amount of egg on this face right now because they really showed up at the time. It counted as well.

Jon Stewart

We, you know, we were playing possum in all the qualifying. We weren't showing ourselves to be who we truly are.

Tariq Panja

Well, and you got. Potch is into it. Rog, the coach.

Roger Bennett

Yes.

Tariq Panja

Who seemed to be trying to get another job.

Roger Bennett

Many jobs, all the time.

Tariq Panja

While he was the US Manager, he was trying to sort of get a European team. I felt like, what do we call it? A come and get me plea.

Jon Stewart

That's right.

Tariq Panja

Yep. And now I think after that second game against Australia, he showed a level of emotion that I'd not seen with him and this US Team. He was really, really into it.

Jon Stewart

He's Talking about the coach. For those of us you know, our podcast is generally dealing with nuclear negotiations through Iran. So I just want to explain to. But he's referring to the famed coach of the American squad, an Argentine legend, Pochettino, who.

Roger Bennett

On local news across America, they call him. His name's Mauricio Pochettino. They call him Coach Poach. That's right. Coach Poach is going through many emotions. He did want to leave little light recently, wanted to join the Irvine Police Department when he saw they have. They have Tesla cybertrucks, but, oh, you can drive one of these. He has to go inside, but he's having an extreme makeover himself. He's starting to dress in like 1980s game poacher. Cool. He's growing his hair out like Russell Crowe and he's having the time of his life. We're all having the time of our life, which I think is what football is about. Look, this US Team has not been very good. Our women's team kicks ass, takes names, is a dream team. Our men's team has been. And new listeners who are like, why is that English guy saying, wait, I love America like Kenny Powers loves America.

Jon Stewart

Yes. And this we embrace you, by the way.

Roger Bennett

I thought, sure. I'm not sure that's really true, John Stuart, but I won't, Won't have you say nice things about me on this show. The. The. The men's team have been like a dream on team and we've always wanted them to be great. They've won one knockout game in our entire history going back to George Washington. And if you've not followed, suddenly in this World cup, they're playing a bullion, swaggering, buccaneering football, albeit about not the greatest opponent so far. It is. It's like watching Matthew McConaughey. I was trying to work out what is it like this shock, this surprise, this wonder. It's like watching McConaughey just rom com it, phone it in. Maybe he'll do Texas Chainsaw Massacre. Maybe just. And then suddenly, like, sod that. You know what? There's an inner greatness. The lies within.

Jon Stewart

Dallas Buyers Club.

Roger Bennett

Yeah, this is our. This is our Dallas Buyers Club.

Jon Stewart

Jon Stewart, Can I tell you something? I looked at that when I saw the Americans play. I thought to myself the same thing. This is a team. This is all Dallas Boyers Club losing weight to portray an AIDS patient.

Tariq Panja

And aren't they doing it supremely well?

Jon Stewart

We are the kings of own goals right now. I mean, the one thing I will say this look, you know, American football is always. And I'm hearing people all over say, oh, my God, they. They took Paraguay and Australia. Can we win this whole thing? And I would like to say right now, for the record, no, we cannot.

Roger Bennett

But why would you say that, Jon? That's rational. And sports or fandom is purely ridiculous and emotional. I will tell you. I was in Seattle, where that game was. We did a live show before the thing with Marshawn Lynch.

Jon Stewart

Oh, I love Marshawn lynch.

Roger Bennett

And there were 5,000 people there. They were out of their mind. They come from all over America. They brought their kids. They were making memories. We then marched to the match. It was like if you've watched a movie called Ferris Bueller, you'll remember, like, the German Day parade. It felt like just a crazy, ebullient cacophony. It felt like Mardi Gras. But like football themed and all that matters. Ultimately, I think about all of this in this very dark world of ours. Like, people are having release, sense of connection, sense of memory, making sense of hilarity. And yeah, I think, I mean, Tariq will know this better than I did. What is the. What is the odds, the percentage chance of America winning? It's like 2.94%. Letting yourself believe it's 100% is the whole point.

Tariq Panja

That's exactly the percentage. I know, Roger, by the way.

Jon Stewart

It's the same percentage Iran had with us in the war, and they won. So, like, maybe. Maybe we're going in the wrong direction here. Maybe we can pull this off.

Tariq Panja

Hope springs eternal. But the thing about.

Jon Stewart

Thank you, Tariq.

Tariq Panja

These. These tournaments, it's. The journey is fantastic. This is my favorite part, to be honest, of the World cup, right at the start, when. When everyone arrives, particularly these fans from God knows where all over the place.

Jon Stewart

And it's an expanded field, let's also be fair. It is now 48 teams, so it is a messier tournament than we've ever seen. And you're finding those teams that have, you know, a Cape Verde or something like that, where hope springs eternal. But it is a. It is a larger field than we're accustomed to watching.

Tariq Panja

Yeah, this is. This is to give you a sense of the scale of this. There were 64 matches for the entire tournament in Qatar four years ago or three and a half years ago, because it was in winter. You need 72 matches just to get through this first group stage. So more than Qatar just to get into the knockout. So we're kind of drowning in these World cup matches.

Roger Bennett

It's an ultra marathon and we're all getting runners. Nipple.

Jon Stewart

Roger, do you enjoy the expanded format? Do you enjoy the messiness of it? You know, and let's be fair also.

Roger Bennett

Are you asking me how my chafing is, John? I've got chafing.

Jon Stewart

How's your chafing? It's 48 teams. There's only, I believe, 60 teams in the entire world. So we're getting close to just everybody being in the world.

Roger Bennett

Yeah.

Jon Stewart

William and Mary, William and Mary is 61.

Roger Bennett

You will be getting, I promise you. The crazy part of this is that everyone coming in was like, you know, Cape Verde, this tiny team, like, you know, Curacao, this tiny team of 125, they're going to get absolutely obliterated. It's going to be an embarrassment. They've been bloody good. They've been, what you could say, part of the story of this World Cup. Cape Verde, this tiny archipelago of islands off the west coast of Africa, 600 miles west of Senegal. I know all this now. I didn't know it six days ago until they took the field against Spain, the World cup favorites, and held them at arm's length with a goalkeeper who was stunning, a 40 year old journeyman, nobody. Vizini held them at bay, made save after save, cried at the end because his mother was not able to enter because she couldn't get a visa. He came on our show that afternoon and told his story beautifully, powerfully, nobly, humbly. He immediately at the beginning of the day had 29,000. This is like a double a baseball player. America, if you're listening, by the end, the beginning of the day had like 29,000 Instagram followers. By the end of the day, he had 10 million. He now has 15.7. He has more followers on Instagram now than Wemby and Mahomes combined. He has more followers than the Pope. This is what the World cup can do.

Jon Stewart

People have always entered the World cup to become influencers.

Roger Bennett

Yeah. And probably John Stewart, your mind is already like, what does he do next?

Jon Stewart

It's already. Now I'm thinking to myself, I've got to go back and play again. Folks, we've all got great ideas rattling around our heads about businesses. I've got an idea about a business like a, where you make really good socks and, and you put them on your feet and they're, they're really well made and really comfortable. And then for every one of them, you like give something away. That's my idea. I don't think anybody's doing it. But that's, that's what I want to do. But if you, if you got a business idea and you want to make some dollars, there is a company that can help you make that pipe dream a reality and that Shopify. All the dumb ideas that I have rattling around in my head, I can use Shopify to make a reality and they make it easy. The design studio, hundreds of templates to build your online store. What are you going to do? Hire people, experts? No, you go on Shopify, they help you find your customers easy to run email and social media campaigns. I'm telling you man, Shopify. It's time to turn those what ifs into with Shopify today. Sign up for your $1 per month trial today at shopify.com TW S go to shopify.com Twitter WS. Tariq what's been your favorite underdog story of this? Has it been Cape Verde? Has it been Curacao? Who's. What's been your favorite underdog story of this World cup so far?

Tariq Panja

I think it's, it's hard to look beyond the, the, the story Roger told about Viza, but Kurasa as well, getting a point off Ecuador.

Jon Stewart

Stunning.

Tariq Panja

And like, you know, you say these names Ecuador Crusoe, like, Ecuador is a big footballing nation. They were very good in qualifying in South America. And again, one of my predictions which haven't come true just yet, there's still time that Ecuador will go deep in this tournament. They are stacked with great players who play at top European teams. And you have this team from Curacao. But the other, the other kind of story for me, I think is the, the story of us, of people. And, and these teams are populated by the diaspora as well. As a member of a diaspora myself, you know, my family's from India. I'm, I'm English. You, you're, you're see, kids are seeing representations of themselves in, in all of these countries and my, my love for the World cup goes and all of us probably rogue. Your first one, mine, you know, when I was a boy, the World cup every four years, the scarcity of this thing. These are moments of your life. You can date yourself. You can place yourself in all of these moments. Now there's gonna be children somewhere who are learning about Curacao, who are learning. Roger. A man child is learning about Cape Verde. And you know, I got a call from a friend of mine in Mexico, an Argentine friend. His son is all over the Democratic Republic of Congo. That is the project he's decided to do at school.

Jon Stewart

That's amazing.

Tariq Panja

And he said, call him, please call him and he'll tell you all about them. And I don't think there's anything like it. I genuinely don't think just there's nothing like the football World cup, not the Olympics, not anything that we've been able to do up until now that can match the pitch of this. And I'm just seeing these pictures like, you know, obviously the Scots in Boston drinking us dry.

Jon Stewart

Yes.

Tariq Panja

The Koreans in Mexico City, you know,

Jon Stewart

all of it is just the Japanese cleaning up the stadiums. Everybody's learning. It's beautiful for Americans because. And it's hard for Americans to understand the importance of the World cup around the world because it just hasn't really. It's not our national sport, although it's rising certainly in popularity. But we generally, for Americans, we learn geography by whoever we're bombing. You know, we now we know where Kabul is and Toronto. You know, war is God's way of teaching Americans geography. But the world embraces a different form of community in, in World cup. It's about that competition, but also interaction. And Roger, that's. Isn't that what makes this the most magical of times because the, the countries travel with them?

Roger Bennett

I mean, I think the. It's been very profound in our context. I mean to see the world love America in the most joyous way, in the most profound way. What Tariq said is true that it's once every four years. It does make my life, I feel. I wrote a book about it. We are the World cup about. I can tell my life alternately by World cup to World Cup. It is the spine of my life, the most profound memory making that's for me and millions and millions of human beings around the world. What we're experiencing in the here and there is when we feel most alive. And because the world's coming together, human beings under conditions of great pressure are defining themselves, revealing themselves in as epic Greek heroes with a script acted out live. But this World cup does have that added dimension that I think is incredibly profound, which is, well, two things. For me, the story of my life, John, is America falling in love with global football. 1994, the last men's World cup was here. It was meant to turn us overnight from like Captain Kirk and space, the final frontier to a proper football loving nation. It wasn't overnight. It's taken time.

Jon Stewart

But it was profound that, that 94 World cup in America was profound in how it changed the way and the fact that we went and went into the knockout round was, was a big

Roger Bennett

deal for us in stonewashed denim. It was beautiful. But before that, before, before that, before that World Cup, I read my book that there was a study taken about favorite sports in America and soccer was 67th. Tractor pulling was 66. The economist has just done a study that found out that soccer is now America's third favorite sport. I was just on a Rod show and he kept being like, when's this soccer thing going to take off? I was like, hey, Rod, it's third now. He'd be like, well, where's baseball? I'd be like, I've got some bad news for you, man. It's number four now. But, you know, the other side of that is the football world falling in love with America. And two things are very profound. Like watching Lawrence, Kansas open its heart to the Algerian team. There's just levels to that of openness and revealing yourself, your heart, your soul to the world and the world embracing us back. And I will say in this context, it feels so good. Feels so good and needed. And the world falling in love with things we take for granted. Granted. But I. I've always looked at as an outsider who's been embraced by BUC EE's. When you do go to a BUC EE's, it is a. It is a life changing. The Waffle House. Smothered and covered.

Jon Stewart

Sure.

Roger Bennett

Lemon pepper. Wet. Or. To watch the world.

Jon Stewart

We take these things. We take getting in a fistfight at 3am over poached eggs for granted.

Roger Bennett

Yeah. What do we fight for freedom for, if not that man? Smothered and covered every time. But the other point is very true, and I want to be clear. The embrace of football fans, Scottish fans, I watched that with an equal marvel, John, when we were growing up and 1978, World Cup, 1990, even the English fans were put on an island off Italy so that the police could contain them. Because football fandom was far more about a zero sum game based on hate. People went to the games.

Jon Stewart

The hooligan era.

Roger Bennett

Yeah. To watch the Scottish fans, to watch the Norwegian fan, to watch the fans embrace each other. You know, it's beautiful, it's needed. It's an open. It's a world where the boundaries are porous. The love is the World cup of love. It's fleeting. I won't be clear. I'm under no illusion, no question, but it's deeply profound. We had Diego Luna, the actor, on our show the other day, and he was talking with a marvel about watching the Mexican fans just fall in Love this fusion of Mexican and South Korean fans. And he's like, he's like, what. What's happened to us? We used to, you know, proper fans used to fire rockets at the opposing Team's hotel at 3am in the morning. Now we're just embracing them, holding them, hugging them. I like the old way, but the new way is we need. We need the new way.

Jon Stewart

But you know why that is, too? And I, I think it's this. And, and Tariq, maybe you can speak to this. I think there is a thirst in the world. The governments are so at odds with each other. The rise of this kind of autocratic nationalism. There is an air of, of tension and sort of imminent catastrophe. And it's a reminder that people are not their governments, that the people are actually. They connect on levels of humanity and empathy. And this game, if it does anything, is bring that to the fore.

Tariq Panja

Yeah, I was just, I was just gonna say that as my, my sort of trip around the US and up, I've been in Tijuana as well, with, with the Iranian team, because they've been kind of exiled in, in Tijuana. And just on that first, the way the Mexicans and the Tijuanas have taken to the Iranian national football team is, Is just magical to see because it wouldn't have happened but for the awful circumstances. But then people take over every day in the morning and at 4pm when these, when the team's going to go and train, these people line up at the gates. These Mexican guys appear to celebrate this Iranian team. And then some of the Iranian diaspora come across from Southern California to meet these guys. And it makes everybody feel warm and special in this moment. And then looking at the US Itself, I was worried, I'll be honest with you, I was worried about this World Cup. I was also worried about myself. Like from. I'm based in England, I look like this. I was going to come over and I thought, oh, yeah, this is going to be interesting. What will immigration at the airport be like? Will I be in, in that room that I sometimes have to go in, or will I get sent back, like, all of these things? Because this is the kind of vibe.

Jon Stewart

It's the moment in this country.

Tariq Panja

Yeah. And from the outside as well. Like, I, I've covered a lot of World Cups and the, the, the thing with Qatar and Russia, these were countries that were desperately trying to tell you that whatever you're reading about us, we're not like that. Even if they might be like that. It was like, let's Put the best possible facade on if it is that and make everyone feel more welcome than they could possibly have imagined. But the posture of the, I guess the US Government to the world has been very different to the past, I. E. We're kind of closed. The World cup is happening in a country that kind of doesn't like the world right now. So this is going to be.

Jon Stewart

Or the reverse. The world doesn't particularly like us right now.

Tariq Panja

Yeah, like, yeah, like we do you want these hoard the hordes of these foreigners coming in and do the foreigners feel comfortable coming in? So it was a really, really odd sensation before. You've just nailed it as well. Like people have taken over. It isn't a government right.

Jon Stewart

Event, but isn't that always the con, the. The contradiction of sport and, and Roger, you know, look, it's the beautiful game and yet it's run by maybe the ugliest bureaucracy. You know, FIFA is in 2015. These guys are, you know, there's an enormous scandal of bribery set bladder. You know, FIFA officials from everywhere are going to jail. It's very clear that Russia and Qatar and who knows about the United States, bought their World Cups, moved people around. Is it the frustration, Roger, sometimes of a game you love so much, a game that is so unifying, that is so easily at times corrupted by the ruling body that runs the sport and the countries that try and dominate it? And how do we separate that out?

Roger Bennett

I don't know if we do. It's like cognitive dissonance. I mean, when you were talking about the emotionalism of this experience and the people taking over, you could say the same thing with the Knicks, John. And you.

Jon Stewart

Wait, don't. Hey, what? Watch yourself.

Roger Bennett

You were there, man. You were there. Jon Stewart was there.

Jon Stewart

Leaves from William and Mary in the streets, baby. I was in the streets.

Roger Bennett

I mean, you watch that, you watch Side Tour, watch all of that and the human ecstasy and the memory making and the, and the profound cross generational wonder that, that, that's galvanized. You know, no one's stopping in that moment and be like, what do you think about the owners? What do you think about the, you know, the family that are running it and what they're doing? It's just like, I mean, you know, what you feel, I can't tell everyone is their story that, you know, that their dad's not here to. In those moments, you're like, my dad is not here to see this. I wish my dad was here. You know, my friend, you know, I have great friends who died Very young, huge Knicks fans, you know, and their. Their friends wore jerseys that they'd given them back in the day when they were kids. You know, gonna. Football is both deeply rational and hyper, Hyper, hyper emotional. And this is the pattern. Look, Tariq, we were in Brazil together in the run up to that World cup, and it was doom and gloom, catastrophizing about the. We were there for the social un. The year, but you were held at knife point. You know, it felt like darkness was about to rain.

Jon Stewart

Were you really, Terry?

Tariq Panja

Not during the tournament, but yeah, I had my, My Brazil experience. Yeah. Yeah, I was. I was. I was mugged in Lagoa. Wish you young men well. Whatever you're doing, I mean, that's ultimately it.

Roger Bennett

Football, more than any sport, its tremendous power is that it holds a mirror up to the world that surrounds it. That's honestly the thing I've always loved, and the World cup more than anything, John, is when two teams take the field. Their nation's histories, their nation's cultures, their nation's politics take the field. It's not like this when the San Diego Padres play the, you know, the Chicago. It's a great game of baseball, but, like, there's levels to this. And as a kid, the levels were always profound and remarkable, magical, even when they weren't. England, Argentina in the shadow of the Falkland Wars, Germany against France, you know, when France was still recovering from its post war identity. All kinds of stories and narrative that had heft. The world's just gotten so much darker and. And so the stories have gotten dark. I mean, it's still a mirror. We may not like the image, that of ourselves that we're seeing of the, you know, the complexity of the. I mean, the Iranian. How the Iranian footballers and the teams reflect it. Yeah.

Jon Stewart

How many. France doesn't exist as a world power right now without their story of colonialism, because those French players and. And there is always that tension of who is actually French or who is actually of that country. And the players not necessarily feeling the love from the people that, you know, it's. It really is deep.

Tariq Panja

And it will happen again and again. And that's the sad truth of this. I remember Messiah Ozil, the German player, won the World Cup. Great, great attacking midfield player. And he had this quote, he's from a Turkish background, and he said, I'm German when we win, but I'm Turkish when we lose.

Jon Stewart

Right.

Tariq Panja

And I think he nailed it. And to your point about how can you. How can you separate these things about FIFA and the World cup and all of this thing. I have a lot of people asking me, given what I write about, is often the kind of dark crevices and the naughty corners of, of the game and said, well, how do you, how do you still enjoy the World Cup? And I don't just enjoy it. I absolutely love this thing. I do. And it's a really simple answer. It's ours, it's not theirs. Like the World cup is, is everybody's. It's just got this FIFA logo on the thing. But it is this moment in time where we all own this thing and we all have the right to enjoy it. Whether you can afford a ticket or not. You just have to go out in the streets. Now those people in Lawrence, Kansas, they will have the best World cup experience imaginable. They might not ever set foot in a football stadium. And this will be happening all over the place. Also in homes all around the world. There'll be kids staying up, allowed to stay up very late in the middle of the night and they'll be talking about it bleary eyed at school the next day. This is our thing. Yes, there is a FIFA stamp on, on this and, and, and, and FIFA is many, many things, but the tournament is everybody's.

Jon Stewart

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Tariq Panja

For me it was everything. So you wake up, you have a ball in your hand, you're at school and you wait. You're just trying to get out of that class and then play. And then I was about five, five or so. I still remember. It's a grainy, grainy memories, right. Of that World cup in 86 which was in, in Mexico. And I remember being taken to an uncle's house. When you're Asian, an uncle's house means a lot of people. And it was near aware where who's got the biggest tv and there's only one T like these days. That's the other thing. Like this, this second screening and multi screening, it's. It's kind of taken away something and headphones and all of these things where people aren't as kind of. You're almost forced to watch together whether you like it or not. You might not.

Jon Stewart

Right. This is pre cable with the little antennas that stick up and move around and the TV is wider than it is tall and you know, deeper than it is wide.

Tariq Panja

And you've got this guy who is both a hero and a villain in Diego Maradona. Yes, this is this, this complete one off and what he did to England in 86. I just don't think there'll be two moments like this. You can't script this stuff where he, where he has jumped into the air and Hand of Goded. The opener.

Jon Stewart

Yes, they called it the hand of God. It was really just the hand.

Roger Bennett

It's brilliant though. No, it was brilliant though. By the way. They not only did it Tariq, he then in the post match interview they said, did you handle the ball? And he said it was a little bit the head of Diego, a little bit the hand of God. That's genius.

Tariq Panja

He was a genius. Because the next thing he did just leaves you slack jawed.

Jon Stewart

Are you talking about the goal where he, he basically takes it.

Tariq Panja

He, he ran from the halfway line.

Jon Stewart

It was crazy.

Tariq Panja

In this, in this beautiful sunlight in this stadium and it's just Magical. So the next day, guess who we're all calling ourselves? We're all Maradona in the playground. Either we're trying to do a hand of God or.

Jon Stewart

Or you're going through everybody.

Tariq Panja

We're trying to do this. Yeah. I absolutely fell in love with this tournament, with these people, with this game, all of this. And. And it endures despite everything, to be honest.

Jon Stewart

And it has. It has levels where it connects, you know, Maradona. And now we watch Argentina today and Messi, Beautiful. Is touched by the hand of God. Here's A man who's 39 years old, who's played, is obviously one of the most prolific scorers that the game has ever seen. He's can't be more than five, five, like. Maradona has this incredible sense of the goal and has put away five goals in two games. He scored every goal for Argentina in

Roger Bennett

the run of play without ever running.

Jon Stewart

The penalty kick that he was given,

Roger Bennett

he misses without ever breaking into a run out of.

Jon Stewart

Right.

Roger Bennett

It's just my. It's like the closest we will ever get to watching someone with Jedi powers just mind meld. It's really remarkable. He's the figure more than any, that he's bigger in America than the game of football itself. The Maradona thing was amazing because the Falklands War came before it. So this was a. He didn't just do it. He did it in the context of geopolitical chaos. And I think a lot about it. Like, he cheated. He punched the ball in. Listeners, you're not allowed to use your hands. And then minutes later, while we're all howling in agony, he cheated. He cheated. He. Essentially the equivalent of a kickoff return through the whole team, a whole heroes eviscerated, all of them. Afterwards, one was interviewed, said, why didn't you try and kick him? He said, we did. He was just that fast.

Jon Stewart

He looked like he was moving at double speed. I mean, if you get a chance to go on. On YouTube or whatever, to find the goal, it's remarkable.

Roger Bennett

And the commentator, the Argentinian commentator, find his translation. He was. He was cosmic kite. He screams as he does it. It's beautiful. I went outside as a kid. I just see my heroes emasculated. And I just got. I was so angry, by the way. Maradona could have done the second goal whenever he wanted. He wanted to cheat us. He wanted to show us, I can F you this way, and now I'm going to F you that way. And I can do both, because you are my. Whatever. Insert word There. And I went outside. 15 year old me in agony. My heroes had been eviscerated. And I took my football soccer ball and just drove it. I wrote about this in my book. Drove it right through the front window of my house in agony. And my dad, who was quick to anger himself, just looked at me as the glass tinkled down and he goes, I understand, Rog, I understand. And now I have on my wall, in my office, I have that framed handball signed by Maradona. Because I'm grateful that I saw it.

Tariq Panja

I felt.

Roger Bennett

And this is the point, John, ultimately, I'm dead inside, man. The world has killed me. I am confused and lost and unmoored. But when I feel these things, when I see Messi do what he did yesterday, I know I'm feeling things that most people feel in real life, dead too. And I'm feeling it with millions of other people. We are paying witness.

Jon Stewart

This is your conduit back to the living. In many respects it is.

Roger Bennett

I'm like. I'm like Matthew McConaughey behind the bookshelves, man. I'm just going over the.

Jon Stewart

You're going through the whole McConaughey oeuvre here.

Roger Bennett

Well, it's, you know, really is, you know, I mean, some people, some people have the Bible and I think McConaughey's hit every single human emotion I love like the rom coms, man.

Jon Stewart

How did you come to it though, Roger? How did. You're 15 in the 86 World Cup. But when did you first, like with Tariq, when did it first imprint itself upon you that this was something special that was going to be in your life?

Roger Bennett

Oh, God. I'm from Liverpool. I'm from Liverpool. Liverpool football is like Indiana high school basketball, Texas high school football. It's like.

Jon Stewart

Oliver has made me a Liverpool fan, by the way. Oh, John, that's what he did. Listen, I made him a Mets fan. He made me a Liverpool fan.

Roger Bennett

Is this true?

Tariq Panja

This is, man.

Roger Bennett

If you're a Mets fan, John, you should be an avatar. I don't want to tell anyone how to live their life. But you like pain. You like joy that's fleeting. You like hope. You like doomed hope. You like.

Jon Stewart

Oh, my God. Doom is the operative word there.

Tariq Panja

Yeah.

Roger Bennett

So come on, man. Come with me on this journey to misery Come with me, my friend. Come on, take my hand. I've got to talk to you after about this. John. This is not. This is not the way. But we'll pick them up. Look. So it was in Liverpool football. Music are like air Water, fire man. So they're just there. My dad chose Everton when he was a kid. He often. We often used to say, would we be different if we were Liverpool fans and we won things? He'd be like, we'd be unbearable. We wouldn't appreciate things we wouldn't appreciate. You have to not winning. He wouldn't call it losing. He'd be, sometimes not winning is important. And he'd say when you do eke out something joyous, you just have to dance while you're at your own kid's wedding. I think the truth of life is in. Is in football or sports fandom. You've just lived it as a Knicks fan, man. But 1970, first World Cup, 1978, where I start my book like football in England when I grew up was muddy pitches, violent men about water. You go the games. I go with my dad who was a d. Decent man. You know, we'd routinely step over broken, bloodied bodies on the way to the game. You know, men just holding their hand out, asking for help, their teeth smashed out by a brick.

Jon Stewart

Right. Because they wore the wrong scarf.

Roger Bennett

Yeah. And you wouldn't even like, look at them. You would be like, oh yeah, that's just. Your brain would just be, oh, there's another broken body. Yes. You'd step out, excuse me, on the way to the gate. Just, just carnage everywhere. Like you just see police horses charging people with iron bars. I've seen men punch police horses. Craziness. Seen it, seen it all.

Jon Stewart

That's that the horses were rooting for Liverpool.

Roger Bennett

I don't. I never asked the horses for the wrong scarf. Yeah. The wrong. Yeah, you're gonna get it.

Jon Stewart

That's what happens.

Roger Bennett

So that's, that's my culture. And then 1978, the World cup was in Argentina. We didn't have much live football on in England either. It kicked off and the first game we tuned in, huge stadium, thousands and thousands from the bleachers. As the Argentina took the field, the fans threw toilet roll. Thousands and thousands of toilet rolls cascaded down. Confetti joyous. And my mother, very practical, turned around to us and goes, who take a toilet roll to a football game, love? But I turned to my dad and I was like, oh my God, Dad. Football can be joyous, it can be fun. Who knew? And the dark side of this, Jon, because I know you're a dark man and you want darkness and what I'd give to you is that 1978 World cup, yeah. Was run by the military hunter to try and they hired An American PR company. Was it Burst and Burst of Marstella.

Jon Stewart

Oh, that's right.

Roger Bennett

They did a paper called what Is True for Products Is Also True for Countries. And Henry Kissinger was hired to publicly proclaim, now the world will see the true face of Argentina.

Jon Stewart

Oh, right.

Roger Bennett

And even then, watching this, that's the dissonance that you want, man, that you're talking. Even then, 1978, there was a human. That people were being thrown out of planes at the same time as we were watching, you know, Argentina win the World Cup.

Jon Stewart

No, that's a remarkable juxtaposition there, because I, I, I think you're absolutely right. And so in that same moment of the darkness, and I think this is kind of what we're talking about, is you feel the hope if we can just break through those hierarchies and structures that are holding everything back. And we get to suddenly touch each other's hearts during these things. And I know that sounds ridiculously overwrought and maudlin, but it really is true. And I tell you this. Watching the Knicks in the street, game five, and thinking back to the first time I was at the Garden in the early 70s, in the nosebleeds, watching the Knicks and the Celtics, going to those games with my son, being in the street with my son, with my wife, with my friends, feeling the streets. I'm telling you, it was, it was. I am not a religious man. This was spiritual.

Roger Bennett

So funny, man.

Jon Stewart

It's wild.

Roger Bennett

Jon Stewart. I'm a horrible man. I moved to America in 1993. September, two days. I landed in Chicago, second night, breaking news. Michael Jordan's retiring. I felt terrible, like I'd done it. Like guilty. And then I watched the Bull season, the Michael Jordan less ball season before he came back. And Tony Kukoc, Scottie Pippen.

Jon Stewart

The one year we thought we could win the champion.

Roger Bennett

Yes, yes. You were like, yes. And by the way, I didn't know. I'd never watched basketball before, but I became mesmerized. This Bulls team, they had a center, Luke Longley, who was from Australia. He and I arrived in Chicago at the same time. Neither of us really seemed to know what the hell we were doing there. And I loved him and I watched him. And then we played the Knicks in that epic battle between. It felt like to me, good and evil. Like, I still have nightmares of John Stark's pubie moustache.

Jon Stewart

Wait, who was who for?

Roger Bennett

Me, I'm gonna be honest with you. I was proper balls.

Brittany Mimedovic

Yeah.

Roger Bennett

And I watched John Starks destroyed With his pubie moustache. And three nights a year, I will wake up in a cold sweat like just John Starks, like a Cheshire Cat. Just the mustaches left and I'm like, oh, my God, that was Anthony Mason. What an athlete he was. Oakley turned, you know, the Benedict Arnold of the basketball.

Jon Stewart

That was in the days of the Brute. They were bruisers.

Roger Bennett

Yes. And so they. They beat the cr. We were valiant, but you beat the crap out of us. And I hated that, like, really, really, really hated the Knicks. I'll get to my point here. I'm a horrible person. I carry that hate in my heart. The older I get, my kids. I'm a New York person now, despite my accent. The older I get, the more I'm just like, you know what? Whatever gives you. My kids are all huge Knicks fans. It's like my worst parents, and I can't stand it. It's really. It's really upset me. It's really upset me. It's like really dark and my wife can't understand it, but it really upsets me. But even I. John, this is my point. Watching them, you know, feel that joy, feel that connection, feel that memory making, feel that sense that everything is possible. It's not kids listening to this. It's not everything isn't possible. But even me with my dark heart, I'm so happy for you.

Jon Stewart

But once every 53 years, yes, something like that is possible.

Roger Bennett

I'm happy for you, John.

Jon Stewart

Tariq, have you ever had that in. In your rooting life? Have you ever had that feeling of deprivation and the deprivation suddenly going to the mountaintop and feeling that, you know, the distance between the two, making it sweeter like that. What's been your history as a fan? Is it heartbreak?

Tariq Panja

I. I am. I'm kind of a fan of the sport, I'd say these days rather than,

Jon Stewart

what are you, Elmo? You won't pick a side.

Tariq Panja

I'm not. But what I'd say I live. Recently, I just had this magical experience as well. I want to talk about, like, New York and London have both had these moments a few weeks apart. And I was watching what's happening in New York from a distance. I'm not a basketball guy, a New York guy or a Knicks guy, but it felt very familiar watching this. I live in North London where, Where Arsenal play.

Jon Stewart

Go on you Gunner.

Tariq Panja

And I must say, whichever. Whichever neighborhood it is, and it doesn't matter which country. I was in Argentina recently reporting as well, where you have a lot of neighborhood teams when the neighborhood Team is doing well or something is up, it's in the air. There's just a different little sparkle, different little magic. People are looking each other in the eye, smiling. Might have to say maybe even a little nod then. Arsenal hadn't won the league in, in 22 years, and they're not a. They're not an Everton. Sorry, Roger. You know, they are. They are one of the. One of the bigger teams in world football, but still, 22 years, there's generations of people who haven't seen this team lift the Premier League title. And. And they did. And the parade in our little corner of. Of it was honestly one of the most magical afternoons of my life. To be honest, I'm not a fan of Arsenal as well. This is the point.

Jon Stewart

Joy is infectious, man. Joy is infectious.

Tariq Panja

It was amazing.

Roger Bennett

More than ever. We need that joy, Tariq.

Tariq Panja

We need it. We need this stuff. We do need this stuff. And the thing that I just marveled at was I'm seeing, like, women in hijabs. Everyone, all sections of society. There's a guy with a pint, a woman with a hijab, and they're singing the same songs. The streets were packed. Every type of person imaginable was there communing in this one spot, this one day when the. When the number 19 was stopped going down Blackstock Road and people pouring on the bus driver was infected with this joy. Yeah, not like, guys, I'm trying to. I'm on my route here. What are you doing? Get on board. And a party on the bus full of everyone.

Jon Stewart

It's the best.

Roger Bennett

But not just that. Not just there, Tariq. It was across Africa, man, across Asia. You saw massive. Massive. It's only. But I think the point and the next. We need the joy more than ever, man.

Jon Stewart

This is why, though, the FIFA Peace Prize is so meaningful. You know, people look forward to that FIFA Peace Prize being given out every year because of what soccer, football brings to the world. Wake up. We got a lot of interesting things going on here. You cannot fall asleep during the podcast. You can only fall asleep after you've heard about our latest sponsor. They're going to change your sleep game forever. Avocado green mattress. Look, these avocado mattresses, they're designed similar to an avocado, to provide comfort and proper support. Very people know that about avocados. The avocado is designed to provide comfort, support and guacamole. But these things focus on thoughtful craftsmanship. They're not mass produced products. They're bespoke, artisanal if you were in Brooklyn, be the perfect place to sleep. Choosing Avocado is good for you and not that you care, you selfish bastard, but it's good for the planet. They use certified organic materials that are responsibly sourced, not irresponsibly sourced, not just willy nilly sourced, responsibly, sort and they last longer. And if you last longer as a mattress, there's less waste. Avocado products are made, not manufactured and thoughtfully crafted with real materials to deliver lasting comfort and Support. Go to avocadogreenmattress.com TWS to check out their mattress and furniture sale. That's avocado green mattress.com TWS. So we know what it feels like. How do we turn off the part of our brain that gets upset about sport washing or these terrible regimes that are using our joy, our feeling, our empathy against us to ease their own guilt, burden, reputation, FIFA Peace Prize, you know, how do we, I, I get angry at myself for not being able to separate them.

Tariq Panja

I, I don't, I don't think, I don't think we should be annoyed. And I think we should be able to carry both thoughts. Yeah, and it's really, it's really important to hold these guys to account.

Jon Stewart

I mean, well, that's what you do. I mean, Terry, that you do better than anybody. I mean, that's so much of what you're reporting us.

Tariq Panja

Well, it's because it's really important because we just spent the last 48 minutes or, or I can see the countdown. So about, about that time talking about how, how great, how great this, this, this sport is, this, this, this thing humanity has produced is, and the fact that these guys are able to, I don't want to use the word govern, but kind of take it hostage in a way, is something that should not be allowed to pass. There are good people in football, but the lack of accountability over the most popular human pastime, this thing that stirs all these emotions, the things that bring all of these politicians or dictators and governments to want to like, cleave it towards themselves is something that is super important. But is anyone, there's no, there's zero accountability over these people.

Jon Stewart

Well, the 2015 really was a moment of accountability. I mean, even for someone like Michelle Platini, who is, you know, a legend, a French, a player and a legend being held to account.

Tariq Panja

Absolutely. But you know, you talked about this. That was a huge moment. Yeah, you're seeing, you're seeing the most powerful football executives being yanked out of beds at 6am in a luxury Swiss hotel, obviously, and then being taken out. Perp walked, taken to New York and we have the biggest scandal in sports. And here we are 10 years later. And the film that I think of every time when I think of FIFA is Terminator 2. The kind of that villain who couldn't be killed. The other terminator or T1000, I think he was called, where he would just reformulate into exactly the same Rog does.

Jon Stewart

Roger doesn't know that. If McConaughey's not in it. If McConaughey's NOT in it, he doesn't know what's happening.

Roger Bennett

If it's not McConaughey film, I'm not interested, man. You know, I'm trying to. By the way, John, I am sitting here trying to think. Which McConaughey film shows you how to have cognitive dissonance but hold two truths to be evident at the same time. And I realize all of the, even the rom coms do that.

Jon Stewart

That's probably true.

Roger Bennett

You're on.

Jon Stewart

Probably true. But Tariq now. So like you say, 10 years later, they've dropped the investigations into FIFA. They've stopped. And you know, right now the cozy relationship between FIFA and Trump. The, our, our Department of Justice has dropped all investigations.

Tariq Panja

Well, I was thinking about this and looking at. When Trump came in, a couple of things happened. I remember being at a conference and seeing the news saying the, the Foreign Corrupt Practices act isn't something the US Care about. So foreign corruption. Yeah, we're not, we're not into this anymore. Just, just to read that headline was, was pretty stark.

Jon Stewart

Well, he also made an announcement that it was okay if companies in America bribe foreign officials for business. I mean, explicitly saying, hey man, that's just how things are done. So if you need to bribe people, knock yourself out.

Tariq Panja

Yeah, it's like a level. The others are doing it. So we're going to be left behind if we don't do this. And then the other thing they said is like kind of this type of white collar crime is not a priority for, for the doj. And what is the point of these organizations or what is the point of the DOJ if you do not want to tackle.

Jon Stewart

I think revenge. I think the point of the doa, if I'm, if I'm being clear, I think it's revenge.

Tariq Panja

So, so great for. Great for those guys.

Jon Stewart

Yes, exactly.

Tariq Panja

And you know, and then you have, for me, I've kind of. It's been the backdrop of my career basically. And, and you see all of these people have been arrested and taken away and a new group have come in and slowly. And then very quickly they realized, you know, when you're like, oh, if I cross this line here, will anyone notice? No, no one has.

Jon Stewart

Right?

Tariq Panja

And then that line gets so far away from where you've started that it is a free reign. There were things bought in, like term limits. They were like, yeah, we're going to have to have good governance models, Term limits. All of these guys are bashing through their term limits. Term limits, schmerm, limits. You know, this is, this is fantastic. We're just honorable people. Why do we need term limits? You can trust us. And then the model isn't to cater to fans like Roger or yourself or the teams or the players. FIFA is beholden to 211 Gianni Infantinos, other football presidents. And what do you do? What do you give them? You give them gifts, right? You give them peace prize, Peace prizes to Trump, but also to the football. Because you wonder who's going to change? Why is football not asking for change? Because I'll give you an example. Just now, the day after the opening game in Mexico City, where all of the football world were invited. So presidents and the senior hierarchies of each of these national federations come to Mexico City, stay in a lovely hotel and come to the opening game of the World Cup. And you think, okay, that's great. But that's not all you get. Then get on a plane. We're going to fly you to Miami. Five days at the Ritz Carlton in Miami. Enjoy, guys. And guess what? Gianni Infantino is going for re election next year. Just remember that while you're here. Who supplied all of this?

Jon Stewart

Wow.

Tariq Panja

And, and it rolls on. And it rolls on and on. We have more uncontested elections in football. Then think about your worst dictatorship. We just don't have a conversation, a debate, all of these things. Like my, my phone might have a bunch of whatsapps from upset football executives. And I always say, well, why are you telling me this? Why don't you just say it? Because they're all enjoying themselves. $300,000 a year for three Zoom meetings. It's not bad, is it?

Jon Stewart

I'm mad, but I don't want to stop the gravy train.

Tariq Panja

There's so much gravy on that train. The tracks are so slick right now.

Jon Stewart

Look, I hate to draw the analogy, but it's, it's not that different from the United States Congress, to be quite frank. I mean, it's, it's a group of people who are no longer answerable to the constituents that they purportedly represent. And they're sort of enjoying this separate world, you know, that they've created. It's a kind of impenetrable bubble. And I wonder, Roger, do you ever, you know, as you're going around this world, how do they view you? Because you're such an asset to. Especially not just around the world, but in America, to the fan, you're bringing this game and really evangelizing, right? And so I imagine they view you as an asset, but I also think they probably know they can't control you. So how do they view your platform and what you bring?

Roger Bennett

Who's the angel?

Jon Stewart

FIFA? The people that control the head of Qatar? Putin.

Roger Bennett

I mean, you'll have to. I mean, God, Putin is on our discord. Very active on the men in blazes. Discord.

Tariq Panja

What's his username?

Roger Bennett

Vlad3237 Vladdy Daddy.

Jon Stewart

It's always Vladdy Daddy.

Roger Bennett

Ultimately, I mean, what Tariq's laid out is the cognitive dissonance. It is. How do you get out of bed in the morning? JOHN Stewart like, how do you function in the morning? How do you do anything? It's hard. And the world is complicated. I think about and have from the very beginning. We start off as one podcast. We've grown this thing into a whole network that has women's. Whole women's platform, has a Hispanic platform. Vamos. Three different communities. So what I think about is nourishing them. I think about what the game brings to them, what watching together brings to people's life. I think it's, you know, John. John Oliver comes on our show every year. It's my favorite moment in the year because he's. I think about this a lot, work on this a lot. And he just kind of breezes in and just does it so much better than I ever could, but without badly.

Jon Stewart

And by the way, you don't pay him for that, right? I mean, that's not a. That's not a paid. That's not a paid appearance with Oliver.

Roger Bennett

Oliver demands huge. Huge. Yes. He's. Private planes. We're not allowed to look at him

Jon Stewart

in the eyes like that. With us, same thing. Spoiled.

Roger Bennett

Yeah, I know he's spoiled. He's difficult. He comes on because he just loves football, man. Loves Liverpool Football Club. But do not go that way. JON Stewart. But every year, every year, you know, at the end of the interview, I ask him, you know, ultimately, there's a. There's a. An old cliche in football, which has been warmed up a lot by a lot of different people. Football is the most important, least important thing. And I always do wonder whether there's a moment in time, whether being a football fan, because I do, I think about fandom, I think about experiences, I think about memories, I think about the football for me has become more important the more challenging everything becomes. Because it is in all seriousness, where even fleeting joy, fleeting sense of deep, profound connectivity, a lot of the good stuff can occur. And I do always ask him, I'm like, is there a point where it becomes almost like we're fiddling while Rome is burning by watching football? And he, and he, and I will say, he's like, well, no one ever talks about whether Nero is a really good fiddler. He's very, very good.

Jon Stewart

I don't think it's bread and circuses always. I don't think it's necessarily government's ways of distracting us while they do the dirty work of what they do. I think it's actually a way of people acting out community rather than distraction, that it's reminding us that those people are fleeting. You know, Jesse Owens in the, in the Munich Olympic, you know, when, when he showed Hitler what was what. You know, these are the kinds of things. I've taken a very different view of it. I, I agree with you, Roger. Like, there's a certain party where you feel like, oh, this just doesn't matter, it's just stupid. But think about Lawrence, Kansas. Think about how people are responding to learning about different cultures for the very first time. It is unifying and grounding in a really important, in a really important way. And the more we, the more we resist those evil forces co opting that beauty that's, that's part of the struggle. I know this sounds ridiculous. I know I am sounding ridiculous.

Roger Bennett

I couldn't agree. I think, I want to be clear. I think it's become more important. I think it's more important than ever sustaining this community. Not take it. I mean, this is the motto of everything that we do. Do not take a second of watching football together for granted. I mean, it is, it's become the most powerful thing, this conversation with fans, the sense of feelings, these sense of active memory making. So that's kind of how I, how I approach it. And you know, I don't send, I don't spend a second, John, thinking about what people think about me or like how my set, it's like there's no good energy that comes out of that man. So I'M just trying to focus on. I'm trying to, you know, do good things with really good people, put right a sense of positivity, a sense of joy, sense of activity. There's so many great things that we're watching, like the Vizinia story. It's tenacity. I mean, tenacity is probably the greatest human value, I think.

Jon Stewart

Resilience. Yes, yes, yes.

Roger Bennett

So these are the things that I spend a lot of time thinking about, a lot of time trying to articulate, a lot of time trying to storytell. And that's, that's how I approach all of this.

Tariq Panja

You know, I was at this game between Jordan and Algeria yesterday here in, in, in the Bay Area, where this prison cell is. And,

Jon Stewart

yeah, that looks like actually a Motel 3. I don't even think that's a Motel 6.

Tariq Panja

I got talking to, to these Jordanian fans outside the, the team's hotel there, and they said, you know, we are all over America. It's such a big country. We are everywhere. And they came from Dearborn, from New Jersey, from, from, from other parts of California, and they said, you know, we've never had a moment ever where we've all been able to come together. This qualification for the World cup has bought all of these disparate Jordanians. And this is just one example. There'll be 47 other examples of this.

Jon Stewart

It's a focus for the diaspora.

Tariq Panja

To San Jose outside the Hilton Hotel, where they're chanting and probably ruining some businessman zoom meeting while they're waiting for the team to come out. And I just thought it was just a very, very interesting and important moment to realize what else can do that. I'm not sure there are many other things that can do this.

Narrator/Announcer

No.

Tariq Panja

And here we are. And we got a few more weeks of this to enjoy. So let's enjoy it,

Jon Stewart

Folks. I have no problem giving a platform to, to those delightful companies that we have scrutinized from top to bottom and picked only the best. But here's the thing. I am, first and foremost, we are. We are a communicator. We are. We are a show. And as such, you know, we don't necessarily give big ups to other shows. But I'm gonna. I promised myself I wouldn't cry. I'm gonna make an exception in this case for npr, npr, National Public Radio, and their up first podcast. I don't know if you've seen the up first podcast on npr. It gives you the three biggest news stories of the day and reporting and analysis to actually understand them. That's why you go to NPR to actually understand things. And they do it in 15 minutes in the amount of time it takes me to eat an entire pizza. That's right. That's another little piece of information you probably didn't know. I can eat an entire pizza in under 15 minutes while I'm listening to the Up first podcast follow NPR's Up first podcast so you can understand what matters and what happens next. It's hard news through a human lens. Foreign. Is the final July 19th. Is that where we're talking?

Tariq Panja

That's right.

Jon Stewart

So how does this. So let's, we're going to move into the knockout round. Let's play out a little bit of who's advancing, where we're going to go. And we'll, we'll, we'll wrap up with a little, not necessarily speculation, but a little predictive. Is this very much like the kind of March Madness that Americans are used to, where you'll get a Cinderella here or there, but ultimately by the end, it's the blue bloods. It's going to be France, it's going to be Spain, it's going to be maybe Netherlands, who's playing remarkably well. Don't know about Germany right now. Argentina. What, what, how do you guys see this? Where, where is it going to go? What might be some of the surprises?

Roger Bennett

The, the honest truth is we don't know a lot. Every team's played twice. It's an enormous, it is an ultra marathon, this thing. It's a massive bloated tournament. There's a the Germans have a notion for you don't want to peak too soon. They always believe you want to be a tourney, a man shaft. Like a tournament team that finds their rhythm, finds their way, finds.

Jon Stewart

Wait, what is the name? They have a Tornado.

Roger Bennett

They have a name for everything, Jon.

Jon Stewart

They really do.

Roger Bennett

I just found out they have a name, a thing for internal monologue and anxiety called Cocktail Cop Keynote, which is the cinema that plays inside your head.

Jon Stewart

Oh, wow.

Roger Bennett

Which means that you're lost in your own mind, which I love.

Jon Stewart

Yeah.

Tariq Panja

Lord McConaughey in your head.

Jon Stewart

They have a name for that. A Makana fashion.

Roger Bennett

Yeah, that's me trying to get out of the Cop Keynote is, is to invasure in a McConaughey. But understood, ultimately teams will reveal themselves and knock out their true self. First game, you don't really know. Second game, you know, ultimately they need to it's like, it's like you played and I'm going to lose you. Younger viewers there Used to be a game called punch out where you'd be Mike Tyson fighting, you know, better and better opponents. That's what the World cup is. It's just a game of punch out until we get to the open water of the knockout rounds. We don't. Now I'm rooting for a US Cape Verde final. Is the joy of this tournament that these tiny nations, they're like the St. Peter's peacocks, whoever they were in. When was it? 22 bad news bears. Yeah. These teams, everyone, everyone now, they, you know, they've all had access to not just training and coaching, but the other thing. You were talking about diasporas earlier. Tariq was talking about fan diasporas and. And diasporas coming together and colonialism. Like, the reality is in front, front. Paris itself has, like, 73 footballers represented. They're not just stocking the. The French team, they're. They're stocking the Senegalese team, the Moroccan team. Right, that. The blurring of boundaries in Balagun, even

Jon Stewart

in the United States, I mean, they're, you know, bless. It's incredible. Coming from Africa, coming from Europe, coming from Asia. I mean, it's amazing.

Roger Bennett

And so these teams all, even the tiny teams, have access to true talent pools of footballers that have done far more than if it was truly just a representation of, like, people who only grew up and play football in. In Cape Verde. So it is magnificent. I'm thrilled for the little teams, I will say, to see Cape Verde's name on a score book by Spain, to see Curacao's name. This must fail if you. I've never been to either place, but it must feel absolutely just like an epic national achievement, not just sporting, but in their nation's history, to see themselves refracted.

Jon Stewart

An epic even in defeat. I can remember it might have been. Maybe it was 2002 when the US played Germany. We lost 2 1. Oh, yeah, we lost 2 to 1. Okay, so 1 nil, I think. One nil, I think.

Roger Bennett

Oh, Cookie, it's your show. Keep going. It's your.

Jon Stewart

All right, tell your story.

Roger Bennett

What does it. What does it even matter? It's your memories.

Jon Stewart

We lost eight to four.

Roger Bennett

Yeah, yeah, I remember that game. I remember that game.

Jon Stewart

But what it was, we actually dominated play for a good portion of the match. And this was for an American team that had always been defined by its goalkeepers. We'd always been defined by, you know, we would form the turtle shell and. And we would have Brazil come at us and take 25 shots, and if we got out of there, With a one nil loss. This was the first time I remember watching the American team against what you were talking about that top shelf world quality and have moments of actual dominance, possession wise, everything.

Roger Bennett

Yep. There was a German that handled the American shot when it was going in on the line. Torsten Fringe. Name him and shame him. He handled the ball when the ball was going in and the referee did not see it. It's a human agony and it's the closest we've come. We would have been in the, in the semi final and you know, ultimately this is the one place it is something to think about for your listeners. If the American men do become good at football, it will be the end of the game of football for many fans. It will be like when Deep Blue beat, beat Garry Kasparov at chess. It'll be like, they'll be like, sod it, the machines of worm. We have nothing to hold over them. Because right now I want to say this. They know, like, they laugh at us calling it soccer because we know that we recoil. We're like, oh my God, are we not meant to call it that? In England, the biggest shows on television are called soccer. Am Soccer Saturday. They use the word, but they also know that we are so like slightly inferior. We're so superior in so many things or we act like it. But we're very inferior in men's football and the world loves it. Everyone laughs at us. And they know that we know that they know that we know that we're bad at it.

Jon Stewart

And they love. Every time an American announcer uses the word pitch. They take a great, they take a great pride in the fact that, that they are forcing an American into this foreign vernacular that sounds so contrived coming out of our mouths.

Roger Bennett

And to the lala slatan. The lala slatan. I'm convinced it's a rom com.

Jon Stewart

Alexi. Lala. Since Latin is, is pro wrestling, it's

Roger Bennett

a symbolic battle for the future of civilization. It's not just about two guys in the studio.

Jon Stewart

Oh, God. I don't want either of them to win.

Tariq Panja

No. Terry Henry from the sidelines.

Jon Stewart

Yes. That's who we want. We want. Yeah, that's what we, we, we want on there.

Tariq Panja

Well, but John, I have a, I have a good feeling for the U.S. i think they're on, they're on the good side of the draw if there is a good side. So that there is a chance that pathway opens up here. And you know, you mentioned 2002.

Jon Stewart

Yeah.

Tariq Panja

I think this tournament has a little bit the hallmarks of, of that one, where Turkey were unfancied, the US were relatively unfancy. There were teams, Senegal, there were teams making runs. This tournament reminds me a lot. It could be a 2002 and there could be a journey or two for people or teams that we're not thinking about. However, I think the final on July 19th will be two heavyweights.

Jon Stewart

I think there's probably no question there. But here's what I will say that we haven't brought up yet and this is not to flatter you both alliance. They have a deep, talented. Harry Kane at 32 years old, still shows he has the finishing capability to carry a team. I mean, in this, this year in the Bundesliga, not to suggest that's anywhere near the Premier League, but to have that. And in Champions League, he had more goals than, than games even.

Roger Bennett

So how much football are you watching, John Stewart?

Tariq Panja

I'm just thinking the same.

Jon Stewart

I'm watching it, I'm watching it right now, Roger. I'm not even actually paying attention to this conversation. I'm actually watching through my screen. Siri. Ah, yeah, that's right. I'm watching whatever Milan team they want to throw at me at this time of day. I'm watching.

Roger Bennett

Do you know, do you know how many Premier League teams are going to be making offers for you to become a co owner in the week of this? It's just amazing.

Tariq Panja

100%.

Roger Bennett

I feel like to and I just tools for you to buy into to Bournemouth AFC Cherries.

Tariq Panja

West Ham, West Ham are up for grabs. And here comes John Stewart.

Jon Stewart

Oh, and by the way, West Ham, what a remarkable little story that's been. Yeah, I mean, the whole thing is I, I, I love it, but I also know, and this is through Oliver, that nobody breaks your heart like England will break your heart. But I'm telling you, this year I see something there. Bellingham Kane. I'm telling you, there's something there that's special and I think if they could put it together, they could be one of those heavyweights standing at the end, standing at the end, watching Donald Trump hold up the World cup trophy.

Tariq Panja

You know, I'm feeling you, I'm feeling you, job. It's very hard to, it's very hard to say out loud. This is, this is a very, very good football. This is a very good football.

Jon Stewart

Very, very good football.

Tariq Panja

However, I'm not sure the English people are capable of being World cup winners. I don't know how we're going to handle it. So maybe you do know how that

Roger Bennett

you do know how they won't.

Tariq Panja

It won't be good. It won't be good. I don't know if it will. I think, I think.

Jon Stewart

Do they rejoin the EU at that point? If they win, did they just go, we're back?

Tariq Panja

I think at this moment in time, glorious failures. Probably. Probably the right thing to happen.

Roger Bennett

All right. I'm not, I'm not. I'm. I mean, I'm not an England fan, but you do know how. I mean, I. I grew up in Liverpool, which considered itself a republic, like Monaco or Lichtenstein or whatever, like a socialist republic there was. When I was a kid, Liverpool was trying to seed from the rest of England to become a social problem, which was just so insane and amazing. So, like Liverpool people, we didn't cheer for England growing up. It was like. It was famously like, we're in the North. The Liverpool was. England was like a. A sudden symbol. And at the same time, just that Saturday, I. I felt for them, even though I'm like, very much Team America now, I felt for them, like my dad, the desperation, the hunger, the desire. You know, seen 1966, which felt closer to 1066 to me, like the destination it is. If anyone lost one, nil had them. Until the arrow went into the eye.

Jon Stewart

Hand of God.

Roger Bennett

The. The. Yeah, all of that, all of that, all of that, all of that is fused. The arrow going into the eye, the handing the ball. It's the end of empire, but it is amazing. England, if you're still listening, it's like Charlie Brown kicking a football with Lucy, holding. Like something does always go wrong. But Jon Stewart, if England win a World cup now on American Turf, in the 250th anniversary of independence. It is. It is. You know, Tariq, there will be rockets fired out of anuses that aren't meant to contain rockets, but will look magnificent all over this nation. And God, I'm not sure America's ready. I'm not sure America is ready for that. The new month.

Jon Stewart

I love it. Gentlemen, I, I can't tell you the pleasure I. I have taken in this conversation. I'm loving this tournament. I'm loving both of your coverage of this tournament and just big fans. Roger Bennett, founder of Men and Blazers Media Network. Tariq Panja, global sports correspondent, the New York Times. Guys, thank you so much for being here.

Tariq Panja

Oh, thanks for having us.

Roger Bennett

Thank you, John. And when you, when you do buy West Ham, just, just you have a

Jon Stewart

spot in the owner's box, my friend. No problem.

Roger Bennett

Tickets half price.

Jon Stewart

Tickets half price.

Roger Bennett

Big, big love.

Jon Stewart

One. One drink, though. One drink ticket. That's all.

Roger Bennett

Thank you.

Jon Stewart

Thank you. Guys. Guys, I want to. I want to thank you both for listening to my Men's Encounter group session.

Brittany Mimedovic

I loved it. It was great.

Jon Stewart

I really. That's out of all the podcasts I think we've done, that's the first one where I think almost all the guests cried or almost cried.

Brittany Mimedovic

And the producers cried. I cried. Yeah.

Jon Stewart

Talking about the families and the. My father and the way that he work in class and. Because it really is how it all. It connects in such a deeper sports music. They connect on these levels beneath the surface of language and everything else. Do you guys are. Are you guys huge sports fans?

Brittany Mimedovic

Oh, I'm a really big sports fan, yeah.

Jon Stewart

You are. Yeah. I know you like the Giants, so you know pain. San Francisco Giants, by the way. San Francisco, to be specific.

Brittany Mimedovic

I totally am. I'm like a huge sports fan.

Tariq Panja

Just kidding.

Jon Stewart

Yeah, no, Britney's not. She's not. She's not having it. Have you guys been watching at all any of the World cup stuff or your fandom hasn't moved into soccer yet?

Brittany Mimedovic

I always get so into the World Cup.

Jon Stewart

There we go.

Brittany Mimedovic

I'm that cliche of somebody that's like all of a sudden every team too. I'm like, this is my team.

Jon Stewart

Right. Cape Verde. I love these guys. It's awesome. And it's also. It reminds you coming off of our Knicks experience. And I know we all shared that in the city, but it is. There is a mini Nicks experience to be had in the city all the time. When you go to these pubs that are showing Premier League. I'm not even talking about just World Cup. You can. It's. You visit these other countries.

Brittany Mimedovic

It's. The funniest is when the pubs are on the city too. With the Premier league, it's like 8am and these guys, they've. They've had a couple. Yeah, it's a great excuse. I'm convinced that's why they're watching.

Roger Bennett

They.

Jon Stewart

They blame it on the time difference, but it's really not.

Brittany Mimedovic

You go to England, it's 8am, very convenient.

Jon Stewart

No, they were there. And I love how Roger is just like, you know, I'm a. I'm a sad man. I'm an anxious man. I'm a nervous man. But I love football, you know, like. And then he just lights up.

Brittany Mimedovic

It makes him human.

Jon Stewart

He says, yeah, it makes the whole thing.

Brittany Mimedovic

And I loved it. They said, like, we need this. We really do. It's Actually, I mean, that's why I keep getting. Getting so misty. Watching is like, it's.

Jon Stewart

We really do need it, because it is. You know, when you think about just the. The decadence and corruption and inequality and the things spinning out of control, and to have something like this that still belongs to the people, whoever owns it, whoever runs it, it still belongs. And it's. It. It reminds you of those moments, and I hate to again, like, throw them on there, but it reminds you of Hungary tossing out Orban. It reminds you of. It reminds you of the power that still exists in the population. That's what I love.

Tariq Panja

Yeah.

Brittany Mimedovic

It's the unity. There's an ad that's been running since before the World cup started. I think it's Airbnb, and I think it's Claire Danes that's doing the voice for it. But it's like when the world meets, and it's like you needed Jamaica to bring their sound systems to England to make punk music. And before the World Cup, I saw that ad, and I was like, this is so out of touch with what's going on right now. And now the commercial comes on, and I'm like, that's exactly right, Claire.

Jon Stewart

We do need that. Thank you, Claire Danes. Brittany, who's who? What do they want to know from us this week?

Brittany Mimedovic

All right, team.

Jon Stewart

What do they want? What do they want from us?

Brittany Mimedovic

John, why are soccer players so overly dramatic when they are knocked down or kicked?

Jon Stewart

It's a. It's a. It's an excellent question. You know, I was. I was a soccer player for many years. There is a layer underneath when you. When you play soccer, a layer of nerves that go through there. It's like. Do you remember the game operation?

Brittany Mimedovic

Yes. I'm awful at it.

Jon Stewart

Put the thing in there, and. And it doesn't seem like much. You just have. It's a little. You have yourself a little. And you got a bone, and you put. Trying to put the funny bone into where the elbow is, and you think to yourself, well, I just touched that side. I didn't. I didn't bang into it. I didn't hurt it. But what. What happens? They're not. They're not faking. We're just. We have overly sensitive electrical impulses that go. My favorite ones are the ones who are, like, clearly on the replay, like, not even touched. Like, they literally just decided, like, I didn't even touch the side. But it's time for me to do. I'm going to say three forward rolls.

Brittany Mimedovic

Yeah.

Jon Stewart

And then go on my Back as though my lungs have come out of my body.

Brittany Mimedovic

Yeah. It's funny, too, because sometimes they'll do it, and I'll be like, oh, my God. And then they'll show the replay, and I'm like, I would be out of commission for six months if this happened to me. Like, I. I get it.

Jon Stewart

Yeah. It is. I mean, overly dramatic. Yes. But there are, as Jillian says, like, it's a very physical game.

Brittany Mimedovic

Yeah.

Jon Stewart

Especially the way they play it in, like, Premier League and all that. Like, they're not playing the. The beautiful game of, like, Spain and Ticky Tacky and. And possession. Like, they're running through people.

Brittany Mimedovic

Which version was William and Mary?

Jon Stewart

I played. I. I actually went to the hospital one night after a game. We played Old Dominion down at ODU down in Norfolk, Virginia. And it was on their field night game, and both teams were very. There was a heated rivalry there. There was a fight on the field in the middle of it, and I. I was a forward, and one of their backs, I can't remember as a wing back or center back, basically went through me on a contested ball from. From the goalie, and I didn't think anything of it. And then after the game, I started pissing blood.

Brittany Mimedovic

Oh, my God.

Jon Stewart

And, like, was in the hospital for a week where, like, I couldn't move.

Brittany Mimedovic

Like, did you even get a free kick? Like.

Jon Stewart

Oh, we certainly got a free kick off the play. And I finished out the game without even realizing it. But, like, you know, they'll mash your organs. They will mash your organs is the point.

Brittany Mimedovic

That's insane. My back could never.

Jon Stewart

Oh, mine couldn't either. I didn't. I. Trust me.

Brittany Mimedovic

Yeah. We're not built for the. The pitch.

Jon Stewart

It was a bad scene, but. But what a. Boy, do I miss it. Boy, do I miss it. Old man. Old man. Glory days for sure. What else they want? What else they want?

Brittany Mimedovic

All right, John, what advice would you give pro golfers now that heckling is showing up more on the course?

Jon Stewart

It's a great question. You have clubs. If you're in. And let's be honest. Let's be fair about this. When you talk about heckling showing up in the course in Long Island.

Brittany Mimedovic

I know.

Jon Stewart

It doesn't. It does. Golf is played all over the world. The only place it shows up is somewhere outside of Siasset. Like, yeah, you know, it's only Massapequa that shows up. Get it in a hole, you jackass. But there's nothing that I think, you know. And depending on the size of the heckler's head that an iron or a wood? I mean, that's really what you have to do. You have to talk to the caddy and just say, is this the type of dude I could take with a putter or do I need to go full wood?

Brittany Mimedovic

Yeah.

Jon Stewart

Easy to take care of. Not a problem. Very nice. Is that it? Is there any other.

Brittany Mimedovic

That's it.

Jon Stewart

Beautiful. I can't tell you how much I enjoyed talking about sports this time and that I didn't have to read any books to do this. Normally I have to. I have to read the books. We're off on the next week. But how, how can they get in touch with us, these people?

Brittany Mimedovic

Twitter. We are weekly showpod. Instagram threads, TikTok, Blue Sky. We are weekly show podcasts and you can like subscribe and comment on our YouTube channel, the weekly show with Jon Stewart.

Jon Stewart

Very nice, guys. Thanks as always to producer Brittany Mimedovic, producer Jillian Spear, video editor and engineer Robertola, audio editor and engineer Nicole Boyce, and our executive producers Chris McShane and Katie Gray. We'll see you. Have a great week off. I'll talk to you guys soon. Boy. The Weekly show with Jon Stewart is a Comedy Central podcast. It's produced by Paramount Audio and Bustboy Productions. This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome?

Brittany Mimedovic

That's new.

Jon Stewart

It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50 page restoration block. Or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it, ready to make anything online make sense. There's no place like Chrome. Check responses.

Narrator/Announcer

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Jon Stewart

Compatibility and availability various 18.

Roger Bennett

Every act of change begins with a neighbor.

Jon Stewart

When neighbors connect through the Feeding America

Roger Bennett

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Jon Stewart

Feeding America led by neighbors.

Roger Bennett

Give now to an hunger@feedingamerica.org Paramount podcasts.