A

Humor and levity lead to deeper connection and communication. My name is Matt Abrahams and I teach strategic communication at Stanford Graduate School of Business. Welcome to Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast. Today. I am really looking forward to chatting with Chris Duffy. Chris is an award winning comedian, television writer and the host of ted's popular how to Be a Better Human podcast. A former fifth grade teacher who went on to write for HBO Wyatt Senec's problem areas, Chris consistently explores the intersection of humor, connection and empathy. His latest book is Humor Me How Laughing More can make you present creative, connected and happy. Chris, I am super excited for our conversation. I really enjoyed getting to know you when you had me on your show and I'm thrilled to have you here on Think Fast, Talk Smart.

B

Thank you so much. Yeah, it was such a pleasure talking to you and I'm thrilled to be here in your home now.

A

Well, thank you very much. Shall we get started?

B

Yes, let's do it.

A

So you have a fascinating backstory. You transitioned from teaching In a classroom, 10 year olds, fifth grade, I believe, to performing stand up comedy and now you host your own show on the TED Network. How did managing a fifth grade classroom prepare you for any of this?

B

You know, so much of teaching, we think of teaching as inspiration and these big, you know, connection moments. And that's, not to put that down, but a lot of teaching, any teacher will tell you, is clear communication, clear expectations and having a vision of what you want the class to do. So like for the small stuff too, right? Like how do I get tissues in the classroom? There has to be a procedure for that, otherwise the kids make up their own procedure. That is not how you want it to go. So so much of that, like precision and vision I think has really carried through to all the other things I've done.

A

I totally agree. It's about expectation setting, it's, it's setting up procedures and ground rules, but leaving for flexibility in, in some of that. And I'll tell you, some of the best lessons I learned when I was managing people came from managing a classroom. There's just a lot you have to deal with. Chris, it strikes me that really good teachers spend time lesson planning and thinking through how they want to take their students from where they are to where they need to be for the learning objective. And a comedian in many ways does the same thing. You have to think where you're starting with your audience, where you want to take them. Now the outcome is different. It's not learning, it's humor, it's enjoyment. But I'M curious, can you walk us through that process that you have of how do we get people from where they are to where you need them to be?

B

Yeah, it's really interesting to think about because I would say it's actually not just in my teaching and in my comedy, but in pretty much all communication. At least anything that I'm planning ahead of time and going to do in any sort of performative way, I use the same trick, which is, I think about like a magician. They do a ton of work to make the work that they're doing invisible. And for me, as a comedian, the work that you do is to make it seem like you are saying something for the very first time. But actually, you've said it a hundred times before. And the reason you've done that is you're getting to the way that gets the audience to understand what you're saying and to take a journey with you as quickly as possible. And that was the exact same thing that I was trying to do in the classroom, is how do I, in the shortest amount of time, get the students to understand what is happening and then get them to take this journey with me? This was my favorite lesson to teach every year, and it was a lesson about the Declaration of Independence. So the way that I did this was, we're coming back from lunch, and I would gather the students on the rug and I would say, I have something really serious to tell you. It is very important to me that you're paying attention to class and also that you are being appropriate. And during lunch, I found a note on the floor, and it is so inappropriate to pass notes. It's especially inappropriate to pass notes that are inappropriate. I'm going to read you that note right now. And I would read the note, and it said, you know, you and I used to have a good relationship, but you're taking advantage of me. And I feel like you don't even listen to me, and I don't have a say at all. So I need. I think we need to break up. Sincerely, the United States of America. And then I'd say, the Declaration of Independence, history's most famous breakup note. And the kids would go, oh, you got us. You tricked us. But they would remember that for, like, the rest of the year, and they would be excited for the next year to learn that. And the reason is because it did not seem like that's what I was doing at all. And that's the same thing that you try and do in a comedy routine. That's the same thing that you try and do when you're, you know, talking to anyone is to give them some moment of delight, but to understand that this, like, you've hooked them in a way where they don't necessarily see what you're doing beforehand.

A

I love that. That analogy of the Declaration of Independence as a breakup note. But what you really did there, I think, is you built curiosity and suspense, and a lot of effective, engaging communication plays on those two things.

B

Well, one of the things in comedy actually is, like, when you're first starting out in comedy, one of the big things that everyone learns is that if the audience isn't laughing at something you think is funny, it's often because they either don't have enough context or because you haven't layered enough elements on top. So the elements have to be like your factual statement, but it's often like factual statement plus emotion. So, like, the alarm clock went off and I was so excited. The alarm clock went off and I was so scared. Right, right. Like, whatever the fact plus emotion is, you get the audience into a place really quickly where then you can deliver the punchline. And I think so often in all communication, we forget that, like, people aren't inside of our heads. So you have to give them that emotional information as well as the factual information.

A

Absolutely. And many of us, especially if you're working in a high tech job or in a finance position, you don't think about that emotion. But it really does make a difference. I want to drill down on something you said. You as a comedian and a teacher who's taught lessons over and over again. You want to make it sound like it's the very first time. How do you do that? What do you do to. To help make that sound? This is an authentic moment that we are having together here. Even though I've said these same things over and over again.

B

I'll give you two answers, one of which is like, just to say that you actually make it genuinely exciting and new for you, so you find a way for it to not be rote and routine and a script for yourself. For me, if I'm trying to tell a joke, I try and figure out, like, how can I actually make myself laugh? Not fake laugh, but like, how can I genuinely find the funny part to me, of this story that I've told a hundred times. The other part, though, is. And this is the part that's like, a little more calculating, I guess, is if you want to make it seem like you've never said something before, you don't just think about the words you think about how you're delivering them. You think about the way that your face and your body are. And so taking a pause, for example, right? Like if you pause and look up, if you go, huh, I see something outside of this window, immediately people think, well, that's in the moment, right? He paused and he looked up. He's actually connecting it to some sort of physical reality rather than just saying, I see outside this window a tree, right? Like, if you go, have you ever noticed that tree? That one right there? And the other thing is to root it in the other person. So I think if you're trying to get them to do something like, listen, look out the window, take a deep breath, making sure that they are actually doing that thing and creating the space for it that will make it again feel like it is real and in the moment. Because you actually can't plan for how long or exactly how they do that thing. So those are some of the little tricks that I use.

A

I love those. The one you just discussed is really about bringing an experience. It could be your experience of what it is or helping them have that experience. I like to leverage questions. I'll ask questions, and I don't always know how they'll respond, but the questions take me in the direction that I need. So there's some novelty, but it's baked into the predictability of where I need to go and being. The emotional connection you have to the moment as you shared with the joke you like to tell, that can be really powerful. It doesn't have to be just something that makes you laugh. It's that emotional connection, and I appreciate that. We'll be right back to finish our conversation. But first, a quick word from one of our sponsors. Their support allows us to bring you this show free of charge. One of my favorite things about this show is hearing from listeners all over the world. Communication connects us, and the more people you can communicate with, the bigger your world becomes. So many of you are collaborating internationally, working across cultures, or simply trying to connect more deeply with people around the world. That's one reason I've been thinking more and more about language learning. Babbel focuses on helping you have real conversations with real people, not just memorized vocabulary. Their lessons are designed by more than 200 language experts and built around practical communication skills you can actually use in everyday life. And because the lessons are short and approachable, it's easy to fit them in a busy schedule. Just 10 minutes a day can help you make meaningful progress. If you've ever thought about learning a New language. This is the perfect opportunity to start. Right now, Babbel is offering up to 60% off your subscription@babbel.com TFTS and now back to our conversation. Stepping on a stage, be it a comedy club, which to me would be really challenging, or even a boardroom or just some office meeting setting for, for many people, can be terrifying. Do you have any mindset shifts or routines you use to help yourself feel more comfortable and calm in those high stakes moments?

B

It's not like I always am able to conquer my, my social anxiety, but in the settings where I can, right? Like in performance and in moderation or in an interview or those kinds of things, one is I can conquer it because I've done it a bunch. And so I have given myself that kind of exposure therapy of knowing that like if you get up on stage and you try and make people laugh and they don't laugh, you're still alive the next day. And you know what? It doesn't ruin your life. And most of those people don't even remember who you were 14 minutes after they leave the room, much less two days. So one is exposing myself to it. The other is I try and rather than like talk myself into feeling a certain way, I try and get my body first. So like, I try and get my body excited. So I will like literally like jump up and down, kind of like skip before I go on stage. And then I will like literally bounce up and down and say like, I think I saw this in a, a movie about Muhammad Ali. But I go like from the root to the fruit, from the root to the fruit, float like a butterfly, sing like a bee. But like it transforms that nervousness into excitement for me. My body then like metabolizes that as an excitement. And when I go out, I have this burst of energy rather than like a, a freezing and tightening up. So I find the physical part really, really helps.

A

You're not the first person to share a physical routine. I, I think not only does it take that energy and do something purposeful with it, but it also gets you very present oriented. You're feeling it. And that's where all effective communication comes from to my mind. Hey, I'd like you to explain the difference between jamming versus joking. Can you explain what this means and how it's best to lean into one versus the other? Because the ability to use humor is a great way to lighten the mood, to connect with people, to diffuse situations. Talk to us about jamming and joking.

B

Yeah, so this is, this comes from Adam Mastroianni, who is an academic and a writer who I just absolutely love. He has a fantastic newsletter called Experimental History, I think is what it's called, or Experimental Psychology. But he's fantastic, and he has done academic research on why conversations end and whether people want them to end when they end, or whether they have ended prematurely or too late. So I just think that's, like, a fascinating research field. And then he came up with this idea of jamming versus joking, which so resonates with me. And the idea is that sometimes we are playing with each other in a way that builds and lets the other person have space and feel like they're in it with us and we are going together, and that's jamming, right? It's like when you're playing instruments together and one person plays the guitar, and then there's space for the bass to come in, and now there's space for the drums, and we're actually all making something incredible together. And joking is his. His other side, which is joking, is when you are kind of making it all about you, and you are so, so invested in the joke part of it that you actually are stopping them from being able to participate as well. So his example is, like, if you're a pun guy, if someone says, hey, it's pretty cold outside, and you immediately respond with, like, colder than. Colder than Antarctica. And speaking of Antarctica. Ark. Noah's Ark, you know, you're like, what. What are you talking about? That's just like, not something that people can respond to. It's just like kind of nonsense wordplay, and not even a good example of nonsense wordplay. Whereas if you are taking what someone else is saying and you're joking around with them and you're getting them into it, so, you know, they go, it's so cold outside. And you go, oh, my gosh. Remember the time that you told me about where it was so cold and you had forgotten your coat? What did you do? And then they say, and we go, oh, what if we both had to make a. Make a coat out of garbage bags? That would be hilarious if we were doing this. Then you. You're building something together where there's space and you're creating this world together. And I think that that is something that, for me, professionally and on stage, it's the difference between, like, a great comedy show and a terrible comedy show. I have found this to be a really transformative idea when I think about humor in particular, is to think about, like, what is the humor that is not making it about you. But that is going to make everyone have a good time. What is it that's going to make the other person look good? Because I think this is the biggest misconception that people have about humor is that the successful humor is you being at the center and you being in the spotlight. And I actually totally disagree.

A

I think it's true for all communication, which is how do we get everybody engaged and involved so that they feel part of it. You're collaborating and co creating something.

B

I mean, sometimes people talk about, you know, being interested versus interesting and I think this is an offshoot of that. Right. How do you not try and make it so the other person goes, wow, Chris is a fascinating man. But instead go, wow, we had a conversation. And I actually didn't know that I had those thoughts or opinions, but it was really cool to discover them in a conversation together.

A

Yeah, together we learn something and I think that's really cool. So Chris, I really enjoyed your book. Not only is it very informative about humor in general, but how we can be more funny. It in of itself is quite funny. I enjoyed laughing as I was learning. So thank you for you share in it several unwritten rules of comedy. You talk about elevators, not rocket ships. Can you just give us some insight and advice for those of us who would love to leverage humor in our communication, in our relationships, who aren't stand up comedians or improv experts? What are a few things we can do to be funnier?

B

My number one piece of advice to people when they say, I don't think of myself as a funny person, but I want to be funnier, is to shift how you think about that and to not necessarily think like it's me telling more jokes, but I would say try to laugh more in your life. So like, find people who make you laugh, be around them, enjoy comedy movies or TV shows or clips. Like, look at the absurdity in the world. So like, if you can laugh more, I think that will naturally bring funniness into your life and then you can share the things that you thought were funny with other people. But then when you are trying to like actually create the humor on your own, not to just appreciate humor that you found or that you're hearing. There's a couple of really basic ways in which like math plays into comedy. Comedy is much more formulaic in some ways. There's an art and there's a science, but there is the science, which is the math part. And so one really basic thing is if you are writing something and you want it to Be funny. Say you're giving a toast or something. You simply have to have the funniest word in the sentence come last. And so if you say, for example, let's say, you know, purple is probably a pretty funny color. So if you're going to say, and the. And the car, when it showed up was purple is much funnier than and the purple car finally showed up. Because showed up is not the funny part of that sentence. So you want to end with the. The funny part. And that also does the second thing, which is the number one reason why people don't actually get a laugh is because they don't leave space for the laugh. So if you say it at the end of the sentence, then you remember there's a period afterwards you pause and people will fill that space in with laughter. Humor is really interesting because laughter is like one of the only contagious social reactions that we have. The only other real one is a yawn. Right? A yawn. And laughs are the only things that we spontaneously generate kind of against without consciously thinking of it when we see other people do them. So you have to create that space where then someone can laugh and they will make other people laugh. And then on a more kind of, I guess, philosophical frame, people often lose an audience by going too quickly. If you're trying to give an analogy of this meeting went so bad, it was like, a lot of times people will go to the. The single greatest thing they can imagine or the worst thing they can imagine. It was like I was being tortured to death. Okay. Wow. That. It's really hard to go further than that. And often the funniest thing is to give kind of things in a series. So it's funnier to say, like, the meeting went so bad. It was like realizing your zipper was down. It was like realizing your pants were fully off. It was like realizing you had been nude the whole time. Right? Like, I'm. I'm escalating in little bits. And by doing that, you're taking the people on a journey where they're going to laugh a little, a little bit more and a little bit more. If you just start with the most dramatic, there's really nowhere else to go.

A

So.

B

So that's something that we. If you pay attention in, like, TV shows and movies, you'll see that they very often will do some sort of gradual heightening.

A

Thank you for uncovering some of the magic and science of humor, this idea that the words themselves and the placement of the words matter a lot. And clearly words matter in communication. But Being strategic about where you place the words and reminding yourself that you need to space for those words and ideas to sit so people can respond, and then thinking about this escalation. And this applies certainly for comedy, but also in making an argument. If you jump to the extreme argument too quickly, you can lose people. But if you show people how these are gradually related ideas, that can really help. And the generosity you mentioned of just being present and enjoying and laughing and what others say is a great way to form that connection. I want to take a step back and talk more about general conversation. One of the terms that I really like that you shared in your book is conversational doorknobs. Well, first, what is a conversational doorknob and what makes for a good doorknob and how can we use them, let's say, in small talk and networking to have the conversation flow?

B

This is another Adam Mastroianni idea, who was one of the interviews for my book that I thought shaped the whole thing. So conversational doorknob is the idea that you're in conversation with someone and they give a statement that opens a whole new room in the conversation. So it takes it to a new place. So you're not just dull and stuck in the same place. You're going somewhere where you're, you're. You're both entering a new place together. But one of the things that I think is really fantastic about this metaphor that, that he created is it's not just offering a doorknob, it's also taking the doorknob and turning in and opening the door. So it takes two parts in a conversation where someone has to be offering these doorknobs and the other person has to be receiving them and turning them. Otherwise the conversation can't actually go further. So an example that he gives is kind of like the most classic type of conversation is, how are you doing? Pretty good. Crazy weather, huh? Yeah, crazy weather. Not very far that you can go in that. But if someone offers something that isn't just, you know, them focused. But if they say, I heard that it might snow in July, and I was thinking about the weirdest weather I'd ever seen, that begs for someone to say, what's the weirdest weather you've ever seen? And it also begs for them to say, here's the weirdest weather that I have seen too. So there is this real opportunity for the conversation to go into new places. And this is something that I think is such a low risk way for people to experiment with having a little bit more humor. And fun and excitement in their life is just to next time you're in a small talk conversation, say something that is just a little bit off of the expected script instead of just saying, okay, well, you know, we're, we're waiting around. Oh, always takes so long. Yeah, I know. Every time. Always got to wait for the bus. Offer an observation, offer an opinion. A classic doorknob is like the best soup is lentil soup that demands a response from people. They're either going to agree or they're going to say, you link. Lentil soup is the best soup. So you can offer something like that that will allow them to respond.

A

This notion of offers comes directly from improv. And I know, I know you've spent a lot of time in that and we've had lots of people on the show talking about improv, but it really is about saying yes and, and collaborating. And many of us in these uncomfortable communication situations become very self focused. It's, oh, this is awkward. I just need to say something instead of thinking about, what's that doorknob? What's that offer I can make to keep this conversation going? And amazingly, you can have a really interesting conversation when you put the offer out there and let the other person take it. If you enjoyed my recent conversation with Gene and Cherie from the Tiger Sisters, I think you'll really love their show. Jean and Cherie are known as the Internet's Wall street and Silicon Valley big sisters and together they've built Tiger Sisters into a top ranked business podcast, reaching number one in business and top three overall in Spotify. In the US they take big and sometimes complicated ideas around money, power and love and turn them into clear, practical tools you can apply right away. Two fun facts. I coached Sheree for her TedX talk and I had the chance to join them on their show and I have to say it was a really thoughtful and engaging conversation. They ask great questions and bring a perspective you don't always hear. New episodes drop every Monday on their YouTube channel and across all audio platforms at Tiger Sisters Podcast. Well, Chris, this whole conversation has been fascinating. Really appreciate your time. As you well know, I like to end with three questions. One, I make up just for you. Another two, I've been asking people for a long, long time. Are you up for that?

B

Yes, I would love that. Thank you so much.

A

I am fascinated by comedians who, for whatever reason, a joke doesn't land, it doesn't go the way they wanted it bombs, if you will, because in that moment where it didn't go the way you wanted. You have a choice to make. You can lean into it, you can run away from it. Talk to me about how you manage when things don't go the way you want set and how can we benefit from some learnings there.

B

It's something that people are always really interested in is the concept of bombing. And I get why it's dramatic. It's kind of a worst fear. And for me, I mean, when it has happened over the course of my career and it has happened many, many times, I have handled it badly in so many ways. Often the worst way is to kind of acknowledge it too much to say, oh, this is not going well. Because then the audience, you lose them because they're like, oh, you're not in control. I thought you were in control. Maybe this was intentional or to. A lot of times people will say, like, you're a terrible audience or like. And, you know, you make a joke about oranges and they go, oh, everyone hates oranges here. And it's like, no, people just hated your joke about oranges. I think turning it against them or acknowledging it or which is kind of turning it against yourself is often the biggest mistake. And instead I think of it as just information, right? Like, how can you use this as information about what the room is feeling or thinking or what you're missing that you could then provide them? My friend, the comedian Mike Kaplan has what I think is the best possible response to this, which is he says, I say something and you as the audience have the power. If you laugh, it's a joke. If you don't laugh, it's a poem, it's your choice. And I love that so much because either way, it's a gift. Either way, I am an artist making art. You are just deciding which art form it should be classified into. So that's what I aspire to do, is to some version of Mike's.

A

I think that's fantastic. So it's how you frame it. The joke didn't bomb at all. It was the best poem ever.

B

Yeah. It was a silent response to a moving poem.

A

Yes. I love it. The self protection that that affords you is fantastic. Mm. Question number two. Who's a communicator that you admire and why?

B

The poet Sarah Kay is the most moving and beautiful live performer I have ever seen perform. And when she is reading a poem live on stage, she tours the world. You are so 100% in the palm of her hand and she creates these beautiful images, but she makes you laugh and cry. And Sarah has this metaphor that she talks about sometimes, which is that a lot of people are trying to go through the world in a way that is cool. They want to be perceived as cool. And so they cross their arms over their chest so like, nothing can reach them. And that she wants to walk with her hands open so that she is able to catch everything, which means that you catch the sorrow and the heartbreak too. And that form of communication I find to be so moving and so aspirational.

A

It sounds like emotion and connection are really critical in what makes you see somebody who stands out. Final question for you, Chris. What are the first three ingredients that go into a successful communication recipe?

B

Oh, I'm going to say presence, delight, and attention. So being where you are, having fun and then paying attention to the person who you're communicating with.

A

I love it. Pda.

B

Oh, pda. Wow.

A

Presence, delight and attention. Excellent. Well, Chris, this was a true pleasure. It was fun to be with you on your show. It was lovely to have you on this show. I think all of us can take away some lessons about how to accept offers, how to be present, and how to think about the words we use, especially at the end of our sentences. Thanks.

B

Thank you. What a gift.

A

Thank you for joining us for another episode of Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast. To learn more about levity and humor, please listen to episode 13 with Jennifer Aker and Naomi Bagdonis. This episode was produced by Kathryn Reed, ryan Campos, Alex McCarthy and me, Matt Abrahams. Our music is from Floyd Wonder. With special thanks to the Podium Podcast company. Please find us on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. Be sure to subscribe and rate us. Also follow us on LinkedIn, TikTok and Instagram and check out fastersmarterio for deep dive videos, English language learning content and our newsletter. Please also consider joining our Think Fast, Talk Smart learning community at Fastersmarter IO Learning. You'll find video lessons, learning quests, discussion boards, an AI coach and book club opportunities. Again, that's FasterSmarter IO learning to become part of our Think Fast, Talk Smart learning community.