A

Hello and thank you for joining us on the Child Mind Institute's thriving kids podcast. Our guest this week, NBC anchor and correspondent Kate Snow.

B

Hello.

A

Thank you for joining us.

B

I'm so excited to be here. I love your studio.

A

Well, yes, thank you. This is a labor of love. We've begun bringing Chad in into the podcast universe as we talk.

B

Chad's right over there.

A

Yeah, exactly. That's the whole thing. It's like I only realized in the last, like three episodes that, like, I should really be bringing in the people around us. And this, this is a credit to Chad. We have Chaman suit logo.

B

Yeah.

A

But then my favorite aspect of our space is not even the comfy chairs. It is Chad bringing the rejected lefufu from his daughter. That then sit behind you. Yes.

B

Nice.

A

That is. We have books of podcast guests and then we also have his daughter, I believe, Chad, your daughter only has real Lao boos and then lefufus.

B

Le foos. Got it. We've done stories. Yeah.

A

Yes. So our reason for having you. Because I, I want to, I want to, you know, orient our listeners because I feel like we, we are less than a year in on our podcast and this has been, you know, a. A wonderful journey of bringing in kind of experts in the field. We have brought in, you know, some folks who are lived experience and celebrities like Orlando Bloom who can talk to us about different things. And you are our first anchoring correspondent to look at mental health from a, you know, journalism lens, things like that. So the first thing is just, you know, you do a lot of work in this space.

B

I do.

A

What kinds of ways do you personally connect to this work?

B

In so many ways, many of which I just, for privacy reasons, I'm not going to get too specific about. But I will tell you, I mean, I can say that I am a

A

therapist, but we don't have to have all of our listeners know all of the things that we'd have in a session.

B

Right. But I've been transparent about a bunch of things. I mean, number one, I see a therapist myself. Okay. Every month. She's fantastic. And it has helped me greatly. Number two, in my own family, we have some mental health issues. And I have written and talked about experiencing a suicide in my family, which was my husband's father, my father in law. It's a number of years ago now, but it still hurts every time I say it. And we can talk more about that if you want. But so, yeah, I have touch points. And in fact, after my father in law died, I think that really Was part of the reason, a piece of the reason that I started being so curious about the mental health system in this country and how it's working or not working and impact on. I mean, you know, there's just. It's everywhere and it used to not be talked about and I wanted to shine a light on it.

A

Yeah. Do you. So going back to this kind of personal thing, I mean I know that around the time of the, you know, your father in law suicide, it was 2010. Right. You. You also had been kind of like connecting with the American foundation for Suicide Prevention.

B

You've been kind of. That was after.

A

Oh, it was after. Okay, got it, got it.

B

So I mean I had been doing some reporting on mental health even before the loss of my father in law. And just to. To just give you the quick summary, John is. Was this amazing Chicago Debars kind of guy. Like really, you know, presence. When he came in the room he was always fun and Jo. And something dramatically changed that we all noticed. And I had not seen it before, but other people had seen it prior when he'd gone through big changes. He was in. He had just retired and I think now that he was. He didn't have a purpose anymore. He had been a school guidance counselor for decades. Any, Anyhow, we, I didn't know.

A

He's a school guidance counselor.

B

Yeah. And we get this phone call. I mean it's a horrible story. I don't want people to upset people, but it was like six days before Christmas and we were in the middle. We were literally throwing a Christmas party for all of our friends and neighbors. And the phone rings and so it was traumatic for everybody obviously and a huge loss for our family. And for a while we didn't, we told friends, you know, we said he died by suicide. We weren't ashamed of it. We wanted people, I guess we want, we sort of felt like as a family, we want people to know. But I didn't say anything publicly because we had little kids in the family. There were lots of cousins, my kids and their cousins. And we wanted to make sure that it was age appropriate for people. We didn't want them to find out that, you know, because Kate went on TV and talked about it.

A

Right.

B

So the first thing I ever did publicly was a speech at the American foundation for Suicide Prevention's gala here in New York years ago. And I, with the permission of all my in laws and my family, they, we all came to agree that like I have the platform and I should talk about it. And so, so I Did. And. Yeah. And that started a relationship with them, too, as a reporter. Right. And. And I was actually just emailing with them today about a story. Yeah, yeah.

A

I mean, I'm. I'm glad, first of all, that you're still thinking about that particular topic, but I can also see how, like, you know, did. Did they know, as you were about to give this speech at the gala, that this was going to be part of your disclosure that you did?

B

I told them, yeah. Yeah. Because it was pretty heavy. I mean, I. I really did share, you know, a lot more of the story and my journey. And that is, again, that's like, part of what drove me to start asking more reporting questions.

A

Right.

B

And trying to look at all different angles. It's not the only thing that I've done, as you know, Dave, like, I report on a lot of different things. I anchor a show every day that you're on with us. Thank you.

A

Yes, thank you for that.

B

It's called NBC News Daily, and that's every. All the news of the day. Right. So it's. We're covering everything, but we do a mental health segment twice a week. That's why we have you on as a guest a lot. So it's still very much a part of my. My professional life.

A

I mean, and I won't believe this anymore, but, like, what I. What I think about when you tell a story, and I did not know that detail about him having had this role transition is, like, the reason why I want people to tell stories like that is we know as clinicians that a major role transition is a major risk factor. That, like, when you have a person who has been doing something that gave their life so much meaning.

B

Yeah, like, that's right.

A

And then they stop doing it. That can be a huge risk factor for depression. It can be a huge risk factor for suffering.

B

And I don't think I knew that back then, of course. Right. But I do now, for sure. And I would also say

A

he.

B

We noticed. We saw the family. We had a. In the summer before he died, we all got together, and he was. You can look at the pictures now. He was flat. His affect was totally different. And we all know at Thanksgiving, just weeks before he died, we had a conversation. Sidebar. I had just had a miscarriage, so I was not in a really good headspace myself that Thanksgiving, which I've also talked about publicly. But we all sat there and thought, like, what can we do better to support him? Something's not right. He was seeing his general practitioner, which, in hindsight all of us feel like that probably was not the right call. Like he probably should have been seeing a psychiatrist, a psychologist, but there's nothing you can do.

A

Only person they trust. I mean, so, so much of this is. And I know I've seen this in the stories of your coverage. It's like it's shining a light on the stigma that someone feels. The, the courage to approach someone different. The, you know, willingness to acknowledge that they're really struggling at that moment.

B

Yeah.

A

Going to see a doctor they feel like is at least a band aid, because general practitioner will say, like, I could prescribe you something.

B

And he. And the practitioner, I don't want to get into it, but the practitioner did prescribe quite a few things that we're now not sure were even the right things. Yeah, My, my. For what it's worth, my note to people would be if you see something like that in member as I did, and we all did.

A

Yeah.

B

Say more. You know, get involved. Like, get. Help them try to find the right person.

A

Right. And it seems like that's been your message about it so much. It's just this notion of checking in and kind of.

B

Yeah.

A

Making sure that people are doing okay. Now granted, again, the circumstance you just shared, you weren't necessarily in the best place to make yourself available.

B

And we're in New York. Right.

A

You know, exactly. That's all that kind of stuff. But so in terms of, you know, thinking about. And I, I'll go back to the fact that we're, we're so grateful that you spend time regularly shining a light on mental health issues. What are some of the major themes even, you know, I mean, this is. We're talking about 2010 right now.

B

Yeah.

A

We're talking now 15 years. A lot has happened in our country over that time. What are some of the major themes you feel like have gotten repeated coverage or you keep coming back to in the mental health area?

B

I mean, there's, there's, there's a lot. Youth mental health in general. Right. Just the, the. Everybody knows this who listens to this podcast. The numbers tell gotten, I think a little bit better in the last few years if you look at like, CDC statistics. But it's still not great. There are so many kids who are struggling with so many different, you know, different diagnoses. And I think that recognition like that over the course of my last 15 years has been a real story arc. Right. Like, we weren't in the beginning really paying as much attention to young children who were struggling. I was telling you about A story I did where it was actually, I think it was right after Covid, or just during, because we were wearing masks in the story. I went and interviewed this mom who had lost her daughter, and it was so awful and painful. It was like she said it was the first time we really even knew anything was wrong. And she was gone, and she was 10 years old. And the story we were telling was about a rise in the incidence of suicides among very young children, which I know is hard to hear. And it was hard to. I mean, I was fighting tears talking to that mom. It was so painful.

A

You know, I feel like we're both going to end up sending people to Google for this clip. I felt like that story was right after the pandemic, because it was.

B

It was after. It was after, but we still had masks. I think it was, I don't know, 21, 22.

A

Right, exactly. It was time. We probably were still being cautious around these things, but it was also, like, sounding alarm at how downstream a lot of the effects of pandemic stress and the mental health crisis were going.

B

Yes. That was a real theme for me during, like, 2020, when everything went into lockdown and, you know, my own family, it was super hard for all of us. Sitting at the dining room table, trying to, like, do my job and have my kids next to me doing their homework. Like, it was crazy. My husband actually got Covid really early on, which is now one of the most Googled searches of my name is because this clip that I made about my husband being down basement in isolation. He's fine, he's fine. Now people still, like, ask me, is your husband okay?

A

Well, I'm just thinking of, like, you know, the stress, the fact that, like, the morning show, like, you know, famously treated like, this kind of COVID thing. And then Jennifer Aniston's character has her

B

like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

A

And it's like, I'm thinking, I watched

B

that show that might.

A

They might have been basing that on real life source material, talking about what your husband was going through in the basement.

B

I mean, a lot of us were sharing those kinds of videos. But I digress. You know, during COVID I did a lot of stories about lots of different pieces of the population. Older people, seniors, you know, people who were isolated and couldn't get out of their homes. Like, there was so much struggle with mental health, I think. But you asked me about, like, themes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think devices has been another theme. Like, like phones, cell phones. You know, how I sent you A link to a story I did about early on about whether this generation, which we now call Gen Z, has fundamentally been altered. Their mental health has been changed by the devices. And when we did that story, there was a lot of debate and people were saying, oh, a lot of people were like, no, in your world.

A

Absolutely.

B

In this world of psychology, we're like, we can't quite make a link yet. There's not enough research now. I think present day, there's a lot more indicators you could speak to this, that maybe those phones are having a direct impact.

A

Well, I think, like, if we go back to that segment, what I love about those early years is also that you were youth centered about it. Like, even though in those segments you were of course talking to researchers in the field.

B

Oh, no, always talking to kids.

A

But it was like in that one,

B

I'm sitting at a.

A

Sitting with a bunch of teenagers.

B

It was in Marin County. I'll never forget Marin county, outside of San Francisco.

A

Yeah.

B

And we're in this beautiful schools, private school. A lot of times, only private schools want you to come in and talk about mental. Like, it's sometimes hard to get the forms signed for public schools.

A

So.

B

But I was with a bunch of teenagers and they're being real. They're telling me what they're seeing. How much they're using their phone was crazy. I shouldn't say crazy. It was not in this. In this.

A

I understand.

B

I don't mean. I don't mean literally.

A

The reality is you're saying it was unbelievable rather than trying.

B

Yeah, exactly how much time they were spending. And that has continued, I mean, to this day. When I talk to young people, I find that they're on their devices far more than most of their parents think.

A

Absolutely.

B

I've had those moments too, where it's like, I once interviewed. Recently I interviewed a mother and a daughter for the Today show. And while we're doing the interview, I could tell the mom was. Her eyes were bugging out. Like, wait, what? Because she didn't know how much her daughter was doing online or if.

A

Yeah, I was gonna say, like, I thought you were gonna say it was the time, but I'm figuring, like.

B

And the time.

A

The shock that most parents feel at understanding what their kids have just encountered in passing in many of these online spaces is really difficult at the same time. And this, this is where, like, returning to kind of like media coverage of mental health. And this is where I think it's. It's kind of like, you know, we're thinking about kind of the balance. It's that, like, a lot of parents, I think, get drawn in by stories about what they're most worried about. They're most worried about what their kids are being exposed to on, say, a phone, you know, the amount of time they're spending on these types of things. But then there's also been so many segments where you look at kids getting treatment that works or kids getting treatment that does not work and goes horribly wrong.

B

True. I'm glad you said the treatments that work. And not just treatments, but systems supports of any kind, like school programs. I've done so many stories, I can't even count how many stories I've done about solutions. Yeah, honestly, in part because our producers at a certain point are like, we can't just keep selling the sad stories about the statistics. We need to, like, find some ways that people out in the real world are coping and, you know, work like you're doing here. I mean, that. That's been a real. Well, that I keep going back to as. As well.

A

What do you think are some of the things that are bright spots for. Because you did cite that. Yes, there have been some encouraging statistics even this year, suggesting that we're seeing some trends in the right direction around.

B

Am I right about that?

A

I mean, the reality is like, yes, it's still bad. I think it's one of those things where if we go back to even segments that were done, you know, on NBC about that, it was like, I think the common theme across those segments was, yes, these statistics might be indicating to us that there could be some positive trends or that at some level, you know, an acceleration or a kerosene effect that was happening as a result of stressors during the pandemic is to some degree attenuating now. And we could see, you know, slightly improving mental health amongst youth. I think the thing that we keep going back to is that, you know, we know, for example, because of the former Surgeon General's warning around screens and, you know, things like that, that there is research where there are risks that we need to map around how screens could play an accelerating effect for vulnerable youth. At the same time, what is. I think the. The piece that is hard to tell, and I know that NBC is focused, is focused on this as well, is that there's not evidence that screens are the causal link to youth mental health crisis.

B

Right.

A

And yet these other factors, kids, access to treatment, mental health parity, insurance coverage, getting good treatment, getting good support, getting great information to parents, we're still fighting all those battles.

B

Yeah, I'M in the middle right now. I can't say too much about this because I'm working on it right now. But another piece in a series that we're doing called the Cost of Denial.

A

Yes, yes.

B

Which is on nightly, NBC Nightly News. Tom Yamas. They launched this series to look at the healthcare. Well, to look at the insurance system more broadly. Sometimes we've done stories about like fire insurance or homeowner's insurance. But the bulk of the stories, let's be honest, honest, are about health and medical issues where someone thinks the doctor says you need something and then you're denied coverage for whatever reason. I've done three of them, only three of them over the last year. I'm working on my fourth right now, which is again, about a mental health issue. And it is a really unbelievable story. All I'm going to tell you, in case it's for some reason doesn't happen.

A

Yeah.

B

Is that there's a family that is in debt for $1.3 million and we can't quite even figure out how that happened. So we're working on that story.

A

God, yeah.

B

But they were out of network, in a private facility.

A

Right.

B

Last year I did a story about a young man that did, that has aired. And you can find all these stories if you Google Cost of Denial, NBC News. It comes up all on one page, HomeP. And my story a year ago was about a young man who I do a lot of reporting that touches on suicide, obviously. And this young man had made an attempt, you know, it was one of those classic, the parents didn't know what to do at all. This was his first attempt. They didn't even really realize that things were that bad. They get him to the hospital, he's in the er, they transfer him, he's in Michigan, they transfer him to another place. But it's not really, it's not a long term solution either. It's sort of inpatient, but maybe subacute, which means not, you know, so acute. And so I've learned all the language.

A

I was nodding. But you're right to define that for listeners like that makes sense. Yes.

B

I mean, there's, I didn't even understand how many levels of care there are for healthcare or mental health care. Any case, they move him to what's called residential treatment and they move him to a place in Washington state because that's what they could find. And they, and it's called Newport Academy. They have a lot of places around the country and he's there. I can't remember now the number of days. But he's there a number of days and all of a sudden they get a letter in the mail that says, this is not medically necessary. That's the language that insurance companies often use. We're not going to cover any of this. And the parents are like, what are we supposed to do? He's there. We're going to fly him home now. He's not safe. This is what they said to me. And they sold. He had a collection of Stephen King, like original Stephen King's books, and they sold them so that they could pay about $25,000, if I recall correctly. I might be off, but thousands and thousands of dollars to keep him there. Not even for the full amount that the doctors thought he needed, but they kept him at least a couple more weeks totally. And then they brought him home. Last I checked, he's doing well. But what happened was I interview them, we come back to New York, and of course we're going to call the insurance company and try to get their. Their statement and comment because maybe they have a good reason. Right, Right. And they didn't say. They didn't answer our calls. We called three times. But after, I think it was after the third call, all of a sudden they settled with the family and the family got all the money back that they had spent out of pocket.

A

That is a wonderful amount of justice for a single family, that one single you fought for.

B

But that's the thing, right?

A

Billboard along the highway, like, call case, can you get justice? You don't know.

B

You can't imagine, Dave, how many. I'm sure you get that calls we're getting. The one that I just alluded to, a min that I'm working on now was because the one for cost of Smile. Yes. They saw our stories and they reached out to me directly to be like, you've got to tell our story. Right. That that's happening on a grand scale. We're getting every week dozens and dozens and dozens.

A

And this is where, like, you know, if I, if I look at your coverage, I think that I'm tearing up for those of our listeners who are listening and not on video. But it's like the kids that I see, I mean, like the story you just told is one that has been true of multiple of my patients over the years.

B

Sure.

A

Where I will be on the phone with a treatment center saying, you cannot get a kid back from the brink. From a moment where they consider taking their own life in a couple weeks, like that just doesn't happen. We're looking at complete environment change for a kid. We're looking at needing to be in a treatment center, intensive therapy, take an intensive look at our lives, take an intensive look at how we safety plan, how we look at our reasons to be alive, how we're gonna keep ourselves safe when we return home. There's so much. And I feel like, you know, you go down that road of like, stories like that are truly what could solve a mental health crisis. Where we start to believe that health care and mental health care are a human right. You've also done other stories where kids and families get victimized by treatment centers.

B

Yes.

A

And yes. Where, you know, which also. It's like.

B

Can I. Can I also just say before I go to that.

A

Absolutely.

B

About this. I feel like parody comes into play too. Mental health parody, meaning there's a law on the books that says you're supposed to treat mental health just like you treat physical. So if it's easy for me to go get ear surgery, it should be just as easy for me to get mental health treatment at that level, you know, like serious mental health treatment. But a lot of times it's not. Still not being treated. And there's not really a mechanism that holds the insurance companies accountable for having everything be equitable. Like physical health versus mental health has to be treated the same way. There's not, there's not a way to like, unless you sue them or something. So anyway, I feel like you're.

A

You're channeling your recent conversation with our friend Patrick Kennedy.

B

Yes.

A

About this kind of.

B

Patrick Kennedy actually helped author that law. He's a former congressman who now does a. Runs the Kennedy Forum.

A

Yes.

B

Which if you don't know, is a great organization. And I recently interviewed him for a conference.

A

Right.

B

That we were at.

A

I think you both did a panel for Global Good and some.

B

Yeah, we've done a bunch. We've actually done several things together. Now. He's a. He's a good human being.

A

Absolutely.

B

But to your next question about the. So the stories that I did, there was a period where I told a number of different stories about youth group homes. Now, these aren't necessarily for mental health. These are places that often states will put a child who either has maybe a juvenile record or foster care situation that falls apart and they don't really have a place for this kid. And so this sounds horrible, but a lot of times they end up getting put into a group home setting. Some of them are great. I wanna say that I've heard of some that are really Excellent. But we were looking at the ones that weren't excellent. And we were finding not just physical abuse, but unfortunately, sexual abuse, assault, rape. I mean, some horrible, horrible stories that we told in order to shine a light. And it actually led. Not bragging, but it led to some change. It led to congressional hearings. Right.

A

Which it should.

B

Which. Yeah, right.

A

That's. We want people to pick that up. And then kind of.

B

Yeah. I mean, there. A young man died. I don't know if you saw that part, but a young man in Michigan actually passed away.

A

But these were. These were incredibly. I mean, tragic stories of mistreatment at the hands of adults who were these kids, you know, kind of like lifelines. Yeah, exactly. Like that's. And I. I felt like, you know, if you. If you look at the juxtaposition of those stories, it's like the only way we're going to build confidence for mental health parity, for example, for kids to be in residential care or, you know, inpatient care, is if we know that the inpatient care they're going to is with an eye toward treating them safe. Yeah, exactly. Safely and effectively.

B

Yeah.

A

And you're kind of. You're striking that balance across these themes.

B

Yeah. And you asked a few minutes ago, you asked. You asked about stories and what are the things I've found that work. And I kind of skipped over that. So I want to go back to

A

that, because what I like is when I try to interview an interviewer, and then what I notice is they're like, so I'm just going to run this back. You know, let's go to this. And I'm like. I'm sitting here being like, this is also the very intimidating part where it's

B

like, no, don't be intimidated by me.

A

Look, you do this for a living.

B

I know.

A

My entire job in doing this is like, if I interview academics, I know they've had fewer moments moderating a conversation than I have. In your case, I'm like, hey, just, you know, tell me how to do this. Like, give me. Give me the four. Let's keep running it back.

B

You're good at this. I've listened, I've watched. You're good at this.

A

Now we sound to our podcast listeners like, I'm looking for reassurance seeking on the interview. But, yes, let's run it back.

B

Exactly.

A

There we go.

B

No, just go back to.

A

Yeah. Even Chad's like, I know what I was gonna say. Chad's like, don't reassure him.

B

I just wanted to say, I think a common theme among programs that I've profiled or things that I've looked at that work is building community. Right. And also prevention instead of after the fact. Right. So instead of after a suicide attempt, like, why not get to kids before that ever happens? Why not build programs that. For example, I've looked at a lot in high schools, in middle schools, in college level, where they're doing all kinds of good work. And I know Child Mind Institute's doing some of that work too, Right. Where you're trying to get at the problem before it is a problem. Right. You're trying to build skills, you're trying to build resilience and knowledge in young people. And not just young people, adults too, frankly. There's all kinds of stuff that's really great that's going on. I'm going to be doing a story in the fall about a program where they're working with coaches, football coaches. And this is not new. This has been happening all over the country. But there's a lot of different programs that have realized that the way to reach teenage boys is through the coaches. Like, give the coaches enough training that they can at least have some good conversations. And then if the kid needs a professional, send them onto a professional.

A

Right. And we, this is, this is where we have so many proposals to embed mental health professionals in those community settings so that the coach can talk up the mental health professional. Be like, look, go see the sports psychologist. I always think of this as like, branding that aligns like, with masculinity. Because if I can't break down the stigma and get every single tune.

B

I hadn't thought of that. The sports psychologist. So it's cool.

A

Well, that's the whole thing is that like, it's, it's like, if we can figure this out. I was, I was joking with some friends this morning. Like, Spotify has figured this out for my own, like, speaking of masculinity, where, like, they, it will tell me, like, you're a fan of dark country. And then like, a friend of mine came back. Yes, that's apparently what I'm a fan of. And then like, a friend of mine came back and was like, I'm a fan of Rebel Blues. And like, I was just sitting there thinking, like, they know what they're doing. They figured out that we're male users. They figured out that we're like middle aged guys. Like, we want to believe that we're still kind of tough.

B

Yeah.

A

And like, I could be out there with my truck, even though, like, obviously I'm A psychologist, like, you know. Right. Listening to Dark country and, like, with my dog and, like, doing stuff. And so, like, they've. They've branded it for us. And I kept thinking to myself, like, should I be talking to teenage boys and being like, look, no, this is like, this is dark therapy. This is. This is, like. This is covert therapy. Right. This is spy.

B

I don't know. That might have a different.

A

Right, Exactly.

B

That sounds connotation, but, like, there'd be

A

something that would get there. And similarly, like, you have to speak

B

their language, though, don't you?

A

Well, I. I have. I have many, you know, patients where. If we figure out a way to brand it as coaching, kids will come into the office.

B

Right.

A

If they say, if I. If I. If their parents say, like, you need to see a therapist, or if I say, I'm your family coach or something like that, or similarly. There have been families that. I've had two patients in the last year, one who's a horseback rider and one's a hockey player, where the parents said, Dr. Anderson does a lot of sports psychology.

B

Yeah.

A

And that was what got us in the door, was one of them really wanted to be more focused in game. He also has an anxiety disorder.

B

Yeah.

A

But, like, you know, that was. That was what was going on.

B

Yeah.

A

And so it's like, you know, we're trying to figure out how to, like, use that as an in. And he would feel fine with me referencing that.

B

Yeah.

A

He tells me he'll speak at CMI events if I want him to, so we're good.

B

That's very similar to reporting skills in some ways. Like, when I go to talk to people.

A

Yeah.

B

You know, especially if they're little kids, I get down. I literally get on the floor. I get, like, down on their level. Like, I'm not gonna sit in a high chair and talk down to a kid. Of course. Right.

A

Yeah.

B

And I'm sure you do the same in therapy. Like, and then having common. Right. Talking about the Labubus or the hockey or whatever, like, just finding. Like, that's how you start. You don't start with some big mental health question or phone question or whatever.

A

Right. I mean, they've got to warm up to some degree also. I mean, when we give, you know, lectures to parent educator communities about how we work with kids, the, you know, first slide is always about relationships, and the relationship is always about being available, curious, interested, like, those kind of things. And if you can't go out and talk to kids about their interest in Dark country or whether they have any, you know, particular interest in Labubus, then you're having some level of difficulty. What would your Spotify say about you?

B

Oh, actually I just did this thing. Did you do this thing where it tells you they just celebrated? How many years was it? 10, 20, I can't remember.

A

They give you a wrap on and

B

they give you a wrap like they do at Christmas time, but now. Or holiday time, but now it's right now. It just happened. And mine is all songs that I have been practicing because I sing. So my spot, this is what I

A

wanted to get to, was your separate talents, you know, outside of this.

B

It's kind of a little known fact about me. I mean, I'm public about it, but like, not everybody knows that I sing. And it's funny, I sang like my whole life as a kid. You know, show choir, right in junior high. Like I was in every high school musical. I was the whole thing college. I sang classical stuff and then with a chorus. And then I stopped in my 20s, in my mid-20s, I stopped. Life got busy, had kids, all that. And it was. I remember it was 2016. Cause the election had just happened and a friend of mine at a dinner party, he's like, hey, do you sing? And I'm like, yeah. But I literally. Dave. I was like, oh, not for a long time. And I did that thing. I was like, oh, I could never. No, I used to. And my friend was like, why don't you come? We have a band. We're looking for a singer. He told me later that he knew that I sang and he was just trying to like get me to come.

A

Yeah.

B

And so I said, well, I guess I could come and just like try. I was so nervous. I was so like meek about it. I was like, I'll come and try.

A

It had been years. Also, singing with the band is different than show choir. This is like a. This is a big transition, truly.

B

And the night went great. When I went and tried out, they tried me out and we hit it off and we had a band until Covid and then Covid kind of wrecked it. And then I've since then been with various. I've been with various different groups in my town. I live in Westchester county, outside of New York City. You know, it's not New York City, you know, it's like we're playing at festivals and stuff like that in bars and we're talking.

A

We're mainly vocals, not doing instruments necessarily.

B

Well, I don't play. I played piano as a kid, but I don't not now.

A

You're not doing keyboard.

B

I can do a little bit of keyboard, but really, no.

A

So no Phil Collins esque feel to it. But if we're talking about the band. Are you with a band right now? If people are in the Westchester county area.

B

So, like, I have a lot of musician. There's a whole community in my town, so I create a group when I play like a gig, when I get a gig. So I have a gig In July, right. July 16th. If anyone is up in Westchester county, you can watch my social media and I will post about it.

A

Yes.

B

That one happens to be in Larchmont, New York. Nice. And it's in a park and it's like a nighttime thing. And I. All my buddies are gonna join me. I'm actually still looking for a drummer, if you know anybody, but. But yeah. And then I told you before we started that I recorded some songs too. So I do have on Spotify, four songs under my name under Kate Snow. You can find them or on wherever you get your Apple Music, wherever you get your stuff.

A

This is what I love. Because this is what we were talking about right before and I was like, no, no, we gotta get this on the podcast.

B

Thank you for working that in.

A

Yeah, exactly.

B

Also, by the way, I have a podcast too.

A

Right, exactly. We should work that in. Because the last time I went on NBC you mentioned this podcast. So we should mention your podcast.

B

You're doing me a favor. It's called the Drink, which I'm sipping right now if you can't see me for the podcast, it's called the Drink. It's always, I sit down with someone and we have a drink of their choice. And it can be anything. It doesn't have to be alcohol. And we talk about how they got to where they are. So it's generally someone you've heard of, like Demi Lovato. Like last week I just taped with Leslie Jones. It's not even out yet. The comedian, she's fantastic. She's so funny. Amazing lot. So many. We've done like 60, so I can't name drop all of them. But the drink, if you look wherever you get podcasts.

A

Absolutely. I'm just considering this. Obviously, I'm far, far from the level of a Demi Lovato or a Leslie Jones.

B

Yeah, but you've had some big stars in this.

A

It's true, it's true. But I'm just thinking about what drink I would choose because my. My kids know this. I have only one drink.

B

What?

A

It has been my drink since I was 22 years old. It is a extra dirty martini with regular olives.

B

Oh, I thought you were gonna be all like, Mr. Psychologist and be like, I have a, you know, Shirley Temple with a cherry.

A

No, that's it. My. It is not that.

B

I don't mean to make fun.

A

I understand. You were gonna go that it could be.

B

There's nothing wrong with that, right?

A

Of course. There's nothing wrong with the Shirley Temple. Right? There's. There's nothing wrong with, like, you know, if somebody says their drink is an NA Beer, if it's a spread, a dirty martini, it's that for. I've been a salt fiend my whole life.

B

I love that.

A

And I had a friend when I was 22, I was working for a nonprofit for America after college. And he was like, dave, I see you eating pickles after pickles at lunch. And like, you need an alcoholic drink in that form.

B

Right.

A

And so, like, you need the dirtiest martini, double the olives. Right. That's the whole thing.

B

I'm so with you. If you were on the drink, that is what we would drink. Definitely.

A

And so my. My children are aware of this because every time we go out to dinner, it's just like, my son at this point, who's nine, I'm not. I don't love, but, like, he's basically able to order my drink, like, right away. And he's like, daddy will have this.

B

For the record, I'm trying to not drink on weeknights. Like, I am, you know, sober aware. Yes. And I. I like a martini. You know who had one, right? Bill Nye the Science Guy. That was his drink.

A

Really?

B

Yes.

A

Now, see, that is someone I deeply admire, and I really like sharing a similar drink of choice with Bill Nye the Science Guy. That makes sense. It works out.

B

Leslie Jones just had Ginger Alex with a splash of grapefruit juice and a lime, and it was delightful. She said it's based. It's like a. There's a Jamaican soda. I can't think of the name of it, but that's very similar to that. And that's what she takes it off.

A

Going back to data, there is a whole movement where you've got people drinking much more intentionally thinking about alcohol and consumption based off of, you know, research.

B

I think I've done some stories on this.

A

Yeah, exactly. I was gonna say for all of us. And you can tell me if my read of this research is right. Cause this is not my area. But I just got get the sense that, you know, there's a Balance between drinking for enjoyment, enhancement of life, and at the same time, it's health risk.

B

And there's a culture change happening, I think, especially among the younger people. Like, I see it in my own 20 something kids. I have two kids, by the way. I haven't mentioned that.

A

You have mentioned they exist. We've not mentioned their current age. Yeah. But wait. So going back to a slight bit of embarrassment, yes, you have four songs on Spotify. Yes, the. The songs, their originals, their covers.

B

Three covers, one original. So the. The covers I did a while ago in Nash.

A

Yeah.

B

Had a lot of fun. Had a lot of fun doing that. Do you. I don't need to. We don't have time for me to name them and stuff.

A

I mean.

B

No, no, no. We'll skip. Just go find them if you want

A

them and then I just want to know the original.

B

The original is actually somewhat informed by a situation in my own life. And it is called Break youk Silence. And it's sort of me speaking to somebody saying, like, help me help you break your silence. Talk. Say. Say, you know, let me in.

A

I feel like it's a whole thematic through line to this discussion. Like, that just works. Yeah. And this is lyrics and music by you.

B

Well, no, music by my good friend Bill, who fully gets the credit. And, you know, he's listed in the credit. Right?

A

Of course.

B

Of course.

A

We see it.

B

And then he wrote it and then we collaborated. He had sort of the. He basically had the theme of the song. And then I rewrote the lyrics and changed a few. Changed some things, but it was mostly Bill.

A

Yeah. This is fantastic. I am sure that we will also include in our. This is where I learned the industry terms. Our show notes. Yes, exactly.

B

Thank you.

A

This is where when we first started the podcast, I kept calling it Seasons. And then Chad and our. Our. One of our other Markov staff, Andrew, were like, podcasts don't have seasons, Dave. You just go forever. I thought some.

B

Some have seasons, Chad.

A

See, this is some do. I feel like Andrew was the. We're gonna have to go back to Andrew now and be like, look, Kate Snow said it has seasons. So, like, clearly it could.

B

It depends on the.

A

Yeah, yeah, exactly. We're gonna go with it. But either way, to bring us. To bring us home here after we've now spoken about how equally talented you are as a news anchor and a singer.

B

That's not true. I don't know. I think I'm more talented as an anchor.

A

There we go.

B

Because that's my day job.

A

I Was half expecting you to finish that with being like, no. Like, honestly, I should be on Broadway right now. Like, that. That should have been. But let's talk about this just as an ending question. Like, what are you hopeful about? Like, your kids are in their 20s now. They are moving into their. Launch into adulthood, things like that.

B

Oh, gosh.

A

What are you hopeful about going forward in your work, in the work that you'll do on behalf of the youth and the generation? Wow.

B

That's such a big question. I mean, I am. I do happen to be in a very hopeful point in my life as a mom, without getting too deep into it. We've been through some stuff. Covid being one of them.

A

Right.

B

And, like, a lot of families, we've just been through some stuff.

A

And if we're just extrapolating back, your kids were in, like, middle and high school.

B

They were in high school.

A

Yeah. High school. Okay, got it.

B

And my older one doesn't mind me saying that he has autism. And that's. You know, he has. He's neurodiverse. And so that's also been a part of his story. And we finally, I think, have found the place where he's really doing great right now. And he's found, like, his home. He's at a great college that is specially built for people with neurotab. Fantastic. It's wonderful.

A

He's in his groove.

B

Yeah. It's called Landmark College. I don't mind name dropping that one.

A

I was gonna say I'm a fan of them as well.

B

You know, sometimes you're like, where do we go? Right?

A

You're like, where can I Google where Kate Snow's son goes to college?

B

But I just told you.

A

Now it's on. Yeah.

B

Yeah. So that. So I'm hopeful. I'm in a hopeful moment right now about their futures, our futures. I'm also. I mean, not. The new. The news business is depressing. Like, there's a lot of bad news right now, so that's hard. I'm hopeful, too, for exactly what we've been talking about. The fact that we can talk out loud and not have to whisper suicide.

A

Yeah.

B

Like, that used to be. Nobody would even say the word. When I was growing up, when I was. I mean, I'm over 50. And that was. Yeah. Like.

A

Yeah.

B

Was like a taboo, practically. So it gives me hope that we're at least dialoguing. And, like, this next generation, my kids, age, generation, they're very much more open, I think, in my experience, like, they're much more willing To, I think the research to each other at least, maybe not always to their parents, but to each other.

A

Well, that's always. The funny thing is that I think the research bears out a, that they're more open. That, you know, and I do think that this is something where I credit the youth for being more open and for breaking down stigma. But also, like, we shouldn't discredit the kind of like, arc of the past couple decades in media in trying to break down that stigma and make it so that we're, you know, elevating those issues. Just like we're talking about all these different stories dating back. We've, we've gone back 15 years even and talk about this. I think it's, it's also something where we, we look at like surveys of youth all the time where they'll say, like, I don't want to talk with my parents about these things because they're really awkward. But I also have to acknowledge they're the best person to talk to. And that's consistently also what we're, that's

B

what research always shows, right, Is that they will turn, turn to their parents if you make the space for it.

A

Well, parents are always saying they don't want to talk to me, and I'm saying no, like, they actually don't want to talk to you, but they also know you are the best person to talk to. And so at some level, we're all going to like, begrudgingly approach this well.

B

And I love what you do where you give parents. I mean, I have learned from your, from the segments you've done on our show, from your podcast. There are tools, there are things you can say that really work. I've had tons of parental coaching and, you know, that kind of stuff too. So.

A

Well, this is where I was grateful. Cause you talked about the prevention note. It's that, like, there are moments where I feel like, you know, we're reactionary. Like, we know that there's a story that we want to, you know, comment on, help parents to kind of figure out how they can talk to their kids about it or like how to process that or something like that. But there have been just as many segments that I've seen where when we're talking about the twice weekly segments that you're doing, it's like, this is going to be something that everybody confronts. Let's just talk about. Everyone approaches this. Let's give them resources to do so.

B

And like real trick, real not tricks, tools.

A

That is also a function of breaking down stigma is That a parent can say, like, I don't have to wait until something's wrong because.

B

Yeah.

A

You know, I'm watching a segment, you know, today as I'm just listening to NBC, and they're just saying, like, hey, talk to your kids about this and don't wait until you're worried. Yes, something like that.

B

Such a key thing. Yeah.

A

Yeah. So look, there's. There's some hope. We. We hope that you get a chance. I know you don't have control over this, but to perhaps report more overall positive news.

B

Can I say one more thing? Are we out of time? Okay.

A

No, we're good.

B

I just want to say, as a reporter. I've been a reporter for 30 years, Dave.

A

Right.

B

And I've been all over the place. I have. I've been to every state but one in the country, in the nation.

A

Only one.

B

North Dakota.

A

Gotta get the only one. We have not treated a patient at the Child Mine Institute, North Dakota. Okay. We're both targeting.

B

My point was gonna be, people are generally good. When I go out and there's been, let's say, a tornado. I'm. I'm thinking of one that happened in Kentucky a few years ago. That was. That one that was so wide, and it went for miles and miles and miles, and it just destroyed everything. The entire. An entire city was gone. Downtown, their downtown area. And I just watch people in those horrible traumatic experiences come together. Like, if you haven't been to those scenes that I've been to, because I've been to lots of bad, you know, natural disasters, shootings, horrible things. People come together in a way that is beautiful because we. I believe we're intrinsically good and we care for each other.

A

That's a fantastic note of hope. And especially with your life experience and the 49 states you've been to. And at some point, we'll visit Mount Rushmore. It's in North Dakota.

B

No, that's South Dakota. And I've been there.

A

Oh, my God. Okay, wait, there's. There's got to be something.

B

Fargo.

A

Yes, Fargo. There we go. Right.

B

I think there's some beautiful. I think there's a national park.

A

Badlands. Right?

B

Is it.

A

No, it's good.

B

Right? Well, South Dakota has the badlands. Maybe there's. Over the line. But.

A

But with the life experience you've had, I mean, look, that's what we.

B

Somebody's going to write to me from North Dakota and be mad that we don't know enough.

A

I know, exactly.

B

I'm sorry, then.

A

Great. Then in that case, like, let's figure out a cool new story to do in North Dakota, like, on. On whatever it is. But no, I think that, like, that that news story, coming from someone who's had that much contact with humanity, is a beautiful one, because it's also what I'm consistently trying to remind my kids of in this day and age is that, like, you know. No, people just generally want to be able to live their lives.

B

That's right.

A

They want to see connection. They want to seek their community. They want to seek belonging. And I feel like you've done stories on that as well. But, like, it's like, you know, if we can give that to people, like, generally, we don't find them to be angry or, you know. Yeah. All right, so we're going to end right there. That's a fantastically reflective mental health note that people will hear our little upbeat, twangy music going off. But thank you so much, K. Snow, for being with us on Thriving Kids.

B

Thank you, Dave, so much for having me. Me.