Esther Perel

I've been in a relationship for about nine months that was pretty emotionally intense. My partner is in recovery and can be very reactive and our conflicts escalate quickly. When they began, I found myself either over explaining or getting pulled into circular arguments. I'd come out of a long stable marriage where conflict rarely escalated and this is my first relationship after that. So this dynamic felt disorienting and I felt totally out of my depth. So I started using AI. Sometimes I'd consult with it to help me understand what was happening and sometimes I I'd even use it in real time during conflict to help me regulate my responses. It kept me grounded and it also helped me do my part to influence our interactions toward peace. It helped so much I became less reactive, more clear headed during conflicts and I stopped participating in the loops. At this point I'm no longer using it in real time and I rarely even consulted about us because I've integrated most of the tools it taught me, but I don't fully know how to understand what happened because it's so novel. I mean, I did grow into somebody who could hold this relationship more effectively, but did I stabilize something that might not have actually held together on its own? Though he does not know I was using AI in this way, which is, for a fairly open person like me, questionable in its impact on intimacy. It did feel like private turbocharged self regulation, which was incredibly calming, but my subjective experience had an objective point crop. It definitely shaped our dynamic, especially in

Caller/Client

conflict where I'd started using AI and

Esther Perel

suddenly break the loop before I knew how to do it on my own. So I'm curious where the line is between personal support and something that affects the integrity of a relationship and where

Caller/Client

intimacy comes into play.

Esther Perel

Thanks.

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Esther Perel

So is there anything that you would like to add?

Caller/Client

Well, I think the biggest thing I'm grappling With is the ethical question actually of the one sided use and the secret use and whether that's. I mean, it's a brave new world, right? And AI doesn't have the kind of standards and practices that a therapist has with confidence, confidentiality and such. So I feel like in hindsight that I might have been breaking trust with him because literally, Esther, I would copy paste our conversations from, you know, our chat into AI because I wanted to get it right. I didn't want to just, you know, describe my version of it and then it would spit out a suggestion of what to say. And at first it was completely different than what I expected to have to say because it's just, you know, I was participating in the loops like I, like I described. And I'm really going to focus on myself in this conversation and my complicity in the loops and that's where it really came in handy. But yeah, so what it was describing was different because I just, I hadn't, I'd never cultivated those tools. The relationship I came from was with a man with, with whom I shared a very similar background. And my new partner and I have completely different backgrounds. So I'm just, I'm needing it, just needing more, you know, more help. So. But, you know, but he's totally against AI. He's not team AI at all. So I just, I'm not really sure where the line is there.

Esther Perel

That's an important, that's an important statement. Right? If he was team AI, you wouldn't be asking me should I share with him or not?

Caller/Client

I'm actually, I'm not sure if I'm asking, should I share it with him or not? I don't plan to share this with him, but I am interested in the ethics behind it.

Esther Perel

Walk me back for a moment?

Producer/Host

Sure.

Esther Perel

How did you start using AI? What made you think AI could help you in that moment? Give me an example of one of those. Copy paste. What do you mean you copy paste? You wrote it all down or you recorded your fights?

Caller/Client

Oh, well, I should actually clarify that our relationship is mostly long distance, so a lot of our arguments take place over text.

Esther Perel

Okay, so the source material landed itself completely. What else do I need to know about that?

Caller/Client

Yeah, I'm so sorry about that.

Esther Perel

No, no, totally. There are questions about your relationship. There are questions about what AI represents for you here and what it represents to the relationship. So there are three different touch points just to start. There'll be others potentially that may emerge as we speak. But have you had a relationship in using AI for Other situations. And this just became one more. Was this a whole new ignition for you? How did it start?

Caller/Client

The first time I ever used AI actually for work, I had to come up with a contract for a client. And I was like, oh, my gosh, I have to draft a contract, and this is going to take forever. And I only have a few minutes. And I had AI I put all the terms into AI and it drafted me this gorgeous contract. And I was like, oh, wow, what do you use? ChatGPT.

Esther Perel

Okay.

Caller/Client

So in conversations with my therapist about this relationship, she had recommended a couple books to me. Stop walking on Eggshells, and it's not you. And then I thought to myself, there's this whole world of relationship books that I haven't really dug into. And I have this tool here that can access all of them and synthesize the information in such a way in real time that might be really useful for my situation. And I was in a place where our dynamic had gotten so volatile, and I was at a loss as to what was mine to own and what I needed to leave with him to own. And so I asked the tool, and I actually said, using this large language model neural network of all the relationship books, here's the situation. What do you think? And it gave me this amazing answer. It was a bit sycophantic, but I'm emotionally supported enough in my life where sycophancy actually causes me to be suspicious. So I found that I could train it not to be sycophantic as long as I kept reminding it. But it gave me this response that gave me so much insight into why we were the way we were together. And it shone a light on the kinds of loops that we were in. And it helps me disentangle the threads of validating him emotionally without meeting him in a loop. So does that make sense?

Esther Perel

Conceptually, it makes a lot of sense. But since relationships are lived in the details, I'll ask you to share an example that's more granular, because the reason you kept coming back is not because it was vague and abstract. You kept coming back because it was extremely precise. It was extremely pragmatic and instructive. You could instantly go and try it out, Practice, practice, and then see what happens.

Caller/Client

Yes.

Esther Perel

And come back with the next installment. Do you see each other in person ever, or the whole thing is just on long distance?

Caller/Client

Oh, we see each other as much as we can. Yeah. I would say we probably spend probably about a fifth of our time together.

Esther Perel

Give me an example of.

Caller/Client

Of a Time when I used it.

Esther Perel

Yeah, it's more like I didn't need it to be sycophantic, I needed it

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to be super useful.

Caller/Client

Oh, yes.

Esther Perel

And I needed to see myself transform in front of my own eyes by applying the instructions.

Caller/Client

Yes.

Esther Perel

And that became the power of it. So tell me more.

Caller/Client

So I am a woman who loves her male friends and I've always had male friends in my life ever since I was little. And I really value the presence of them. They're a good balance for me and they've never, ever, ever been a threat to my relationships, my romantic relationships. They're completely separate. And he has background where he's actually been left for his ex girlfriend's male friends. So he has that experience and he brings that into our relationship as a suspicion. So that's. I think that's fair. But I also need to hold my own boundaries around that and communicate those with him in such a way that doesn't allow him or just doesn't, you know, doesn't call my integrity into question. So when I had a male friend who was traveling stay at my house and he was not there, he had a really big problem with it. And, you know, he said some things that were not true about the dynamic. And I had to separate out his emotions, you know, his valid nervousness about it from.

Esther Perel

He accused you of cheating.

Caller/Client

Yes. Yeah. And so I had to separate that from the reality and from holding my boundaries and asking him to trust me, disentangling his emotions from the trust. And that's really tricky, you know, I mean, my impulse as a very logical person is to describe my day with my friend and show him how I can't possibly be doing what he thought I might be doing with him. And even putting him on the phone. You know, I put my friend on the phone with him just so they could meet, you know, on video call. And so that was. That was my impulse.

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It all backfired.

Caller/Client

Right, right. What was way more useful was.

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I could have told you that too.

Caller/Client

Yeah.

Esther Perel

Basically you were trying to legitimize your actions, separate the truth from his fears, be defensive, and all of this was getting you nowhere.

Caller/Client

Right, right. And so, yeah, so ChatGPT was like a real time coach, you know, and what I could do is I manage the situation much more effectively by just hearing him out and just not even not being available for him to call my trust into question and asking him to please meet me with more curiosity. You know, if you have a question of my behavior, you need to ask me about it and then when you ask me about it, when I answer, I really need you to trust me. So separating those threads was, was very useful for me. And that's. I think that all of our loops follow a similar pattern and I've been able to deploy these tools for them when I use it in real time. I have to say it's, it's much quicker and more efficient in breaking the loops than I am on my own still. But I'm getting better. I'm getting there.

Esther Perel

So while you were trying to garner his trust, AI was also capturing your trust.

Caller/Client

Yes.

Esther Perel

And what allowed you to trust it? Not as in it gave me good advice, but as in I'm going to do what it tells me. I'm going to practice something different when I'm so completely wrapped into being stuck in this repeated loop. Where did your flexibility come from? It's beautiful.

Caller/Client

Good question. I have a pretty good level of discernment and when everything it was telling me made complete sense and was challenging for me, but challenging in a way that felt true.

Esther Perel

So you knew when you derailed and you needed somebody or something to help you get on a different track?

Caller/Client

Yes, ma'. Am.

Esther Perel

And did he notice your change? Is he aware that you've embarked on a different track?

Caller/Client

I don't know if he noticed a change in me as much as he noticed a change in himself. Because he noticed that he was seeking more self awareness on his own part and holding himself differently in our conflicts. He actually remarked that his friends and family noticed a change in him. That, you know, hey, it might be attributable to our relationship, but I have to say I don't know that the dynamic would have been complete without my use of AI.

Esther Perel

Says you, right?

Caller/Client

Says me, sure.

Esther Perel

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So the loop is bigger. AI makes its recommendation. You put them into practice. When you change, he changes. Because there's no better way to change the other than to change ourselves when we are in a loop. Because if I do something that instigates you to respond in a certain way, if I start doing something else, sooner or later you're going to respond differently because I'm not giving you the expected repartee. So in loops, it is really the secret of how you change them. If you change you, you change the other, but the other doesn't necessarily think that you've changed. They notice their change. Or sometimes they may say I'm different because she's different. So in effect what I'm telling you is that you didn't just use AI for you, AI wasn't just coaching you. AI was coaching the relationship.

Caller/Client

Yeah. That feels accurate. Yeah.

Esther Perel

Did you read some of the same things in the books that were given to you?

Caller/Client

I did, yeah. They were very similar to what the AI was coaching me to do

Esther Perel

or the AI learned. Well, large language model on the arrow goes in a different direction.

Caller/Client

Yes.

Esther Perel

So ChatGPT is regurgitating in a very efficient way what it has taken from, as you said, all the books that I couldn't read.

Caller/Client

Yeah.

Esther Perel

You know, and has there been moments when it said something and you said, I'm not doing this? Do you argue?

Caller/Client

I do. I argue with it? You know, sometimes, yes. I have to say, sometimes maybe it

Esther Perel

was right and you were wrong.

Caller/Client

That's true. That's true. But often its recommendations are so cold, you know, and they're, they're inhuman. And I'm, I'm a very warm. Oh, okay. Let's see.

Esther Perel

I don't know you, so if you tell me warm and cold, I don't really know what that represents for you.

Caller/Client

Okay.

Esther Perel

So, okay, I'm not just nosy for the sake of nosy, but in the examples I get to experience more of you on a granular sensed level.

Caller/Client

Yeah. Would you mind if I looked something up real quick?

Esther Perel

Go ahead. Let's see, I'm just going to.

Caller/Client

Yeah, I'm just going to look at my phone and see if I can find, real quick, a recent recommendation that I thought, oh, man, I can't say that because it's so cold. So let's see here. So something. I was trying to draw a line about some assumptions he made when I called him. And the AI suggested that I said, you can have your reactions, but I'm not the place you discharge them by assuming things about me. And that to me reads as a little bit combative. What it does, though, what I think ChatGPT is really good at doing is giving me different options and letting me choose from them or synthesize them and then I can look to see the different angles it comes from so that I can do something and then add my voice and add a little bit more personal context.

Esther Perel

We have to take a brief break, so stay with us and let's see where this goes.

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Esther Perel

that feel like a punishment.

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Esther Perel

Tell me more about your relationship now. Interestingly, at this point I know more about your relationship with the chat than I know about your relationship with your boyfriend.

Caller/Client

Yeah, okay, so it's the kind of dynamic where we have Very high highs. And then the lows suck. There are lows that I've never had in a relationship before, or if I have, it's been a very long time back, maybe my early 20s.

Esther Perel

And the same is true for the highs.

Caller/Client

Oh yeah, yeah, most definitely. I've never experienced this kind of high before in a relationship. And I don't mean like a high as in like a drug high, but just the kind of. Just the. Our connection is just so beautiful and so meaningful to me. It's woken me up in ways I've never been awake before.

Esther Perel

In what sense?

Caller/Client

Well, I see the world through trinities, the mind, body, spirit, head, heart, hands, etc. And you know, I've always been very good at cultivating my trinity individually, my mind, heart and body. But I've never really cultivated a connection between my heart and my body. And that is a connection that it's really woken up in this relationship. Our dynamic has really activated that. And it's not just in our relationship, but it's the kind of thing where I can feel gratitude more in my body now. I can feel joy in my body now. I can feel sadness. I haven't before meeting him and having this relationship. I hadn't cried since I was probably 10, except at my grandma's funeral a few years ago. And now I'm an emotional person now.

Esther Perel

I cry.

Caller/Client

It's wonderful. And I absolutely credit our relationship with waking that up. So it's very precious to me now. I'm sure that the connection was always there.

Esther Perel

Of course.

Caller/Client

It's just now it's awake and now and he's. He's really helped me realize that. So I know it's meaningful to him as well. And it seems only to be getting better, you know, especially now that we can have more healthy conflicts.

Esther Perel

I was for 10 years before this in a relationship that was stable, that may have been more distant, more conflict avoidant, no highs, no lows, steady temperature. I don't know why you left or why it ended or why they left, for that matter. I don't know the end of that relationship, but I find myself, or you find yourself in a new relationship that has all the passion that the previous one lacked. But the passion comes with an erotic intimacy, an erotic charge, and also an erotic wrath. And it goes from heaven to hell and very fast. And if we don't find a way to not drop so low, slowly but surely the highs will erode. So I needed to find something fast and effective. And you did something that is quite wonderful, which was to say, I'm going to focus on me. Because it's very easy in a dynamic like this, since it's part of the core of the dynamic to be a blame fest. You do this. You do this. I do this because you.

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I wouldn't do this if you didn't.

Esther Perel

It's a whole blame fest. Yes, that's part of the loop. So you decide, I need help. I need to change this. What can I do? I don't want to be in this place. I don't want to say what I say. I don't want to feel what I feel. I don't want to do what I do. How do I step from out of this? And in that sense, you're using this AI, this machine, in a very pragmatic, tool oriented way.

Caller/Client

Yes.

Esther Perel

And part of your question is, is this a tool? Is this a legitimate tool? Is this a transgression?

Caller/Client

Yes.

Esther Perel

Which is no longer a tool. Is there a breach? Am I violating something? Is this an ethical dilemma or is this simply. I couldn't read every book I wanted to read, so I found a very good Reader's Digest.

Caller/Client

That's so true.

Esther Perel

Okay. That's why I want to know about the relationship. Because what happens when you say to me, no, no, I don't plan to share any of this. Okay. Not that you have to. Not that it matters to me. But what you did say is, he is not into this.

Caller/Client

No.

Esther Perel

So that is where it taints or tints maybe is a better verb, the secrecy a little bit more.

Caller/Client

Yeah.

Esther Perel

It's like whatever. He would not be into that I'm doing behind his back. And not only am I doing it behind his back, but on top of it, I'm bringing it into a relationship.

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And little does he know.

Caller/Client

I know. And I have to tell you, though, I think I justify it, because if the tables were turned and he were doing this, if he were using AI, I would absolutely celebrate it. I would love for him to get a second opinion as long as he was using what I was really saying and not his version of if that makes sense. Mm.

Esther Perel

Right. But what I'm saying is that your ethical dilemma takes place in the context of a particular relationship where your partner has strong opinions about the very thing that you're questioning.

Caller/Client

Yes.

Esther Perel

And you can't ignore that.

Caller/Client

Yeah.

Esther Perel

And I honestly, when I say it doesn't, it's not. It's not what I think here, because I have no answers to some of your questions. These are new questions for many of us. But the question about Is this a tool or is this a transgression I want you to think about for a moment as you experience it?

Caller/Client

Yeah. I think that you made a really good point a while ago when you said that when I was describing the granular conflict and you said, I could have told you that. You know, I mean, you. And so I think what if. What if I were in a relationship where I needed support and I were to seek out the help of a therapist and my partner would say, I don't like therapists. I don't believe in that. Yeah. So is this. Is this parallel? I don't know.

Esther Perel

So I have been in situations where one person comes to therapy and the other person is a convinced skeptic, thinks the whole thing is useless. And the question is not about what people think about therapy in my mind, or what people think about AI for that matter. I mean, not that they are irrelevant, but I would put another one on top of it. You can't sleep and you decide to take melatonin. And the other person thinks melatonin is useless. You want to eat a certain way and you change your entire diet. And the other person thinks it's stupid.

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It's.

Esther Perel

What is the level of differentiation in the relationship? How much does one person live side by side with another person who thinks differently about certain things, does different things, practices different things without thinking, if I don't like it, if I don't agree

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with it, if I don't believe in

Esther Perel

it, if I'm not a convert, you shouldn't be doing this, or I'm going to tell you on a regular basis how poorly I think about it, which I'm saying to you, is that the process, the dynamic is more important. The particular issue, if the issue is drinking, taking melatonin, going to therapy, doing the AI, they are not the same, but the dynamic may be the exact same one.

Producer/Host

I see.

Esther Perel

And the dynamic is you shouldn't do what I don't like or what I don't believe in or agree with. Differentiation is about the acceptance of otherness inside a relationship without reactivity.

Caller/Client

Yeah, I see what you're saying.

Esther Perel

Which is, in effect, what the AI counseled you on. He didn't just counsel you about how to not get engaged and get angry and be in a fight. It told you how to be able to listen to him without agreeing with him. That's differentiation. It told you about how to elicit curiosity toward you, which means engaging with the otherness. It didn't just say, let me show you the guy that's Staying with me so that you can see that I'm not sleeping around and I'm not cheating on you, because that really wasn't doing. Showed you how to have empathy without having to first constantly being into self legitimization. That's differentiation. So one thing I say to you is when you get advice from the chat, it's useful to know what is the advice you're getting. What is it actually coaching you on? It is coaching you not just on reducing conflict. It is coaching you on tolerating difference and introducing the tolerance for difference inside your relationship.

Caller/Client

Yeah, that's really beautiful too, because we are so different. Oh, man. Our backgrounds are different, we are different, and our outlooks on the world are different, you know, politically different. All the differences. And I think, you know, I love us and I love people who are different. They expand my world. But being in a relationship, one is certainly fraught with a lot of friction. And I'm just. I'm so grateful to this tool for helping me navigate that friction in a way that has made it work. I'm not sure it would have worked otherwise, to be honest with you, because

Esther Perel

I would have felt attacked unjustly.

Yeah.

Caller/Client

Yeah, attacked and stressed and questioning myself all the time and questioning my sanity, I guess. Bending to contorting too much. Contorting myself too much in order to match what I felt like he was demanding of me, you know, rather than holding my own and respecting my own boundaries and being able to. To stand solid in myself and to really celebrate our differences as, you know, as I want to. Because I love the way that he's. The ways that he's different from me. You know, he pushes me, challenges me, and I just. I love that about us. But as you know, it just. It comes with this other side that I'm navigating.

Esther Perel

And the other side is what?

Caller/Client

Oh, the. The ways of approaching conflict, the friction

Esther Perel

that happens that comes after. There would be no conflict if you said yes to everything.

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Right.

Esther Perel

You say, I love the difference.

Caller/Client

Yes.

Esther Perel

Does he or does he like to change the difference into sameness?

Caller/Client

That's a really good question. He says he loves the difference. Yeah, he says he loves the difference.

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On a good day.

Caller/Client

Yeah. On a good day, he says he loves the difference. And he Also, on a good day, he says how much he has learned from our relationship. And, you know, when he. When he walks, he loves how he walks differently. And he loves the feedback that he's gotten from family about his changes, about, you know, his confidence and his calmness. There are Some things about me that I think that he wishes were different. Do you want me to be specific?

Esther Perel

Mm.

Caller/Client

Okay. You understood me, so, yeah. Okay, thank you. His background is a little bit more suspicious of institutions than mine is. And he

Esther Perel

has.

Caller/Client

Let's see, I call it the C word, but I'm going to go ahead and use it. He knows about all about the conspiracy theories that are out there, and he gives them a lot of credence. You know, on a. On a still day, he'll look up at the sky and look at all the. The contrails and just kind of be like, oh, they're poisoning us with all the chemtrails.

Esther Perel

And.

Caller/Client

And I'm a little bit more trusting of our institutions. I think that institutions are really useful in our society, and that's my point of view, and I'm learning that that's a big sticking point. So it makes a lot of sense with his background that he is mistrustful of institutions. And I like to have him send me all of the sources that he uses to validate his worldview so that I can understand it and question mine if needed. Think that he sees me as kind of naive, maybe a little bit blind. And it's an interesting power dynamic, you know, because

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he.

Caller/Client

I think. And I know this is kind of common for a lot of people who give credence to this stuff is, you know, they kind of see that they have access to this truth that the mainstream doesn't have access to. And I think that he wishes that I were a little bit more suspicious along with him. So that's just one example. It's a big one. And we're coming to the place, I think, where we're trying to share our information sources a little bit more with each other.

Esther Perel

Is he curious about yours?

Caller/Client

Not really, to be honest.

Esther Perel

You're naive.

Caller/Client

He thinks I'm naive and he's not. He figures that my information sources are all the mainstream media, which, you know, he doesn't trust. That's not really true. I do have my little niche outlets that I like. But, yeah, he doesn't trust that. He still thinks that I'm very mainstream and naive.

Esther Perel

We are in the midst of our session. There is still so much to talk about. We need to take a brief break, so stay with us.

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Esther Perel

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Esther Perel

That's it.

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Esther Perel

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I have used a Skylight frame and I will say it makes quick changes very easy. I have traditionally always been someone who liked to be paper calendar. Once you write it in pen, it's there forever even if it's wrong. And the Skylight is just cleaner and has a lot more flexibility.

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Families are better when they're working together. Right now, Skylight is offering our listeners $30 off their 15 inch calendars by going to myskylight.com Esther go to myskylight.com Esther for $30 off your 15 inch calendar. That's my S K Y L I g h t.com Esther. Support for Where Should We Begin? Comes from Wayfair. Your space should represent the full you and if it doesn't, you will never truly feel at home. Wayfair has pieces that can help you create a living space that demonstrates your unique style. I've actually used Wayfair and I must say I love it.

Esther Perel

We're reworking the studio where we record

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the podcast and Jesse and I finally decided on the new chair for me to use during my sessions. We went with the Zola Upholstered Accent

Esther Perel

armchair by Wade Logan.

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Esther Perel

R.com Wayfair Every style, every home. Have you asked Chad to think with you about the power of what the physical passion represents for you in your ability to be in the presence of differences that you probably would not have chosen otherwise?

Caller/Client

No, I haven't asked that question. That'd be a great question.

Esther Perel

But it is a question that you have, right?

Caller/Client

It is, absolutely. I gotta tell you though, I do have. My family is a little bit more. It's kind of between the two of us and I always. I like challenging conversations and I like, I love nuance.

Esther Perel

But when you tell me what you just did, it's not a challenging conversation because Chat tried to switch your response from attack and reaction to reflection and curiosity.

Caller/Client

Yes.

Esther Perel

What I asked you is not. If you agree, if you think alike. I don't think homophilies just should exclude politics. So that's not the point. But what you're telling me is the

Caller/Client

burden is on you to smooth the differences. And I'm accepting this burden because of the passion. Yeah.

Esther Perel

There's very few things that can actually withstand the power of these differences than the power of the body. Not the heart, not the mind, the body. So when you say I read his things, I look at his sources. I am the naive. I am the one who doesn't see, I read the mainstream bullshit. He sets the tone on that. And so then just thinking, it's an interesting thing. It's like you're willing to change your mind. You're willing to, which is great, by the way. But you are with somebody who expects you to change your mind. If anybody is to change their mind,

Caller/Client

perhaps. Yeah, I definitely don't expect him to change his mind. I don't. I don't see that ever happening. That's okay. It's something that we've navigated so far and I think as long as we are respectful of each other, my. Am I getting it wrong here?

Esther Perel

No, but you're not.

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You're not getting wrong at all.

Esther Perel

But there's something you feel and you don't want to see it. It's one thing to respect differences and it's another thing to be cast as the naive.

Caller/Client

Yeah, it is pretty shitty.

Esther Perel

Okay, you're telling me I have strong opinions. I can hold my own. I have been with more than one man in my life. I have had different types of relationships, and I don't know anything before the one before this, but I hold my ground is what you're saying. And that's a different thing to be the naive. With naive comes a whole set of other associations. That's personality. That's not content. That's why I'm asking you.

Caller/Client

So you're asking me to explore what that means in the other parts of my. Of our dynamic.

Producer/Host

Yeah.

Esther Perel

Yeah. Because so far you've asked Chat help with very specific things.

Caller/Client

Yeah. Like real time.

Esther Perel

I don't want to act this way. How do I act another way? That's very, very helpful and precise. Now you're entering a range of other issues in the relationship that are a lot more subtle. They're not obvious. They're not explosive. They're not argumentative. They're not adversarial. It's kind of, how do I co opt?

Caller/Client

So how do I use that as a framing for this next phase of our relationship as I work out the subtleties of our compatibility and our power dynamics?

Esther Perel

You got the word right.

Caller/Client

You know, I feel like that's a really interesting, like, intellectual exercise. And I'd love to talk about it with my therapist, but I wonder what ChatGPT would say about that. I'm going to write it down.

Esther Perel

You want to ask, Go ahead.

Caller/Client

Right now?

Esther Perel

Yeah. Let's see.

Caller/Client

Okay. Okay. So let's see.

Esther Perel

I'm curious, too.

Caller/Client

Okay. So he thinks I'm naive about world issues. It's just the brass tacks here. All right, so taken as a pattern, how does the intensity of our physical

Esther Perel

connection override be strong enough to withstand the diminishment of my mental abilities?

Caller/Client

Okay, thank you for. Thank you for that.

Esther Perel

And I'll tell you why this becomes a relevant question.

Caller/Client

Okay?

Esther Perel

Because if at some point Chat understands you better, doesn't put you down for what you think, doesn't claim you to be naive in your worldview and whatever else, then your relationship with the AI will change.

Caller/Client

I like being in a relationship with a human, with somebody like a messy human, you know, it's very rewarding. It's beautiful. I like all of it. You know, I love the whole gamut of the human experience. I love, you know, the fact that I can feel sadness now and cry about it is gorgeous to me. And the fact that I can feel joy in my body is gorgeous to me. So relating with AI is just not like that at all. It's all it is, is just. It's tapping into knowledge. The moment it starts becoming a sycophant, I. You know, I shut that down because I don't want that validation. You know, I. I know I'm a reasonable person, and I. I know that I'm intelligent enough.

Esther Perel

Good.

Caller/Client

Yeah. But I'm concerned about that for sure, for the people who don't have that.

Esther Perel

But you're being very clear about yourself, so I can totally put aside the concern that I raised with you. So what does it say? Why is it answering us?

Caller/Client

All right, so I'm just going to go ahead and tell you how the frame. Okay, so he thinks I'm naive about world issues. Taken as a tip of the iceberg for a pattern, might the intensity of our physical connection be strong enough to withstand my discernment on these matters? Okay, short answer. No. The physical connection won't carry a structural mismatch in how you're seen and interpreted. Longer answer without softening it. What you're describing isn't really about world issues. It's about epistemic trust. Does he believe your perception of reality is sound right now across multiple situations? He assigns intent, questions your reading, and positions himself as more accurate. That's a hierarchy. My read is greater than your read. And once that hierarchy is in place, it doesn't stay contained to one topic.

Esther Perel

It generalizes, by the way that is being answered on the basis of things it's now remembering.

Caller/Client

Yes. Okay, a little bit. Yes. Yes.

Esther Perel

Good friend.

Caller/Client

Okay. Okay. Why the physical connection won't offset this. Strong chemistry can increase tolerance, delay confrontation, make repair feel more rewarding. But it does not correct misalignment in respect, trust and interpretation. In fact, it can make it worse. Because the better it feels physically, the more you're tempted to overlook what doesn't hold structurally. The real question isn't about intensity. It's this. Can you feel attracted to someone who consistently doubts your judgment and assigns you a lower level of discernment? You already answered that earlier. Which I did. My attraction drops when he assumes negative intent. Naive is just a more global version of the same move. Next section is what this pattern becomes over time, if unchanged. Are you interested in the first line? Okay. Not hypothetically and predictably. You explain you're thinking more. He pokes holes and reframes. You defend or withdraw. He retains the position to more accurate, which erodes ease, respect and desire, and you either disengage emotionally or start editing yourself to Avoid being misread. And then it corrected my framing. It said the correct frame is, does this relationship support or erode my ability to trust my own perception? So that's the question. And yeah, that's everything, isn't it? It's interesting. There does seem to be a growing disconnect sometimes, and I don't think it overrides my ability to trust my perception, but I do think it might override my ability to bring that trust to bear, if that makes sense. Because it's so. Yeah, yeah.

Esther Perel

That's why the chat says you will avoid these confrontations. So I'm going back to your original question, because we have arrived to the end of our time together, which is, how do I ensure this remains a tool and doesn't become a transgression? Figuratively, metaphorically, the transgression. As in, it's a secret. I'm hiding it from him. And in part because when it comes to AI, the dynamic is not that different from the politics. It's the same.

Caller/Client

It's like a way that. So he has his power that he's keeping close to the vest on his side. And this is my power and keeping close to the vest on my side.

Esther Perel

Exact. So the next question is, what are the rules of transparency? What are the rules of privacy and what makes for secrecy? In a conspiratorial viewpoint of the world, there often is not really a sense of privacy. It's transparency or secrecy separately from politics. So that's another question. And these are questions for you to ponder. These are not questions that we gonna answer, you know, in our conversation. But what is privacy for you and what is privacy in our relationship? How does the relationship evolve that some things that we are expecting to share with each other and some things remain very much our own. Does it change if we have a way to move in together versus if we live in a long distance relationship? How does the circumstances of our relationship dictate what is shared and what is personal? If we live apart, we don't have to tell, I'm going now and I'm coming back. Then if we live in the same place, there's more likelihood that we would have to make that a shared piece of information rather than just my life, the rhythms of my own life. These are developmental questions of any relationship separately from any deck.

Caller/Client

Yeah. You know, and I came from a place where to me, like intimacy equals full disclosure about everything.

Esther Perel

Intimacy equals full disclosure. Okay.

Caller/Client

Of everything.

Esther Perel

You know, there is a possibility that if he is in recovery, he has known to do things not in a transparent way. So often people who have had addictions are masters of hiding in all kinds of ways and they often think other people are hiding because they know very well how to do it themselves.

Caller/Client

Mm. Yeah. And there's where the trust issue comes in for sure.

Esther Perel

I don't trust you is often because I know what I would be doing if I was in your situation or I am capable of doing such a thing or I've been in situations that make that very much a possibility. How is this conversation for you so far? Because we have to stop it.

Caller/Client

Oh, I love it. Yeah, I know, I love it. I think it's wonderful. I had no idea what to expect going into this. And you know, I love that you made me ask ChatGPT a question in real time and you framed it in a way that I think was so far below the surface for me, but made a lot of sense and it brought it up and I just, I feel like you really heard me and what I was saying and I love that. I loved your framing of our relationship once you learned our. Learn more about it, you know, and our passion and. And then you, you have such a great background with these very volatile dynamics and kind of can identify that, you know, while yes, there are high highs, they're also low lows and navigating those as challenge. And here I found a tool to help me navigate those challenges so that I can enjoy the high highs a little bit more and make it last longer, you know, to be honest. So. Yeah.

Producer/Host

Good.

Caller/Client

Thank you.

Esther Perel

You're welcome. I wish we could talk more, but we have to stop. So I'm gonna just put three dots at the end of the sentence. And thank you very much your helping me think and ask new questions as well.

Caller/Client

Thank you.

Producer/Host

This was an Esther calling, a one time intervention phone call recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world. If you have a question you'd like to explore with Esther that could be answered in a 40 or 50 minute phone call, send her a voice message and Esther might just call you. Send your question to producerteraparell.com where should we begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast network in partnership with New York Magazine and the Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsome, Destry Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristen Muller and Julian ap. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin are Esther Perel and Jessie Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller and Jack Saul.

Ryan Reynolds

Hey, It's Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile.

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