Secularism Is Dying. What's Next?

Podcast Host

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Magnus Person

I think that many, many people are looking stability and relocating the center of where can a gracious God be found, exhausted by the chase of new highs and feelings and experiences inside the chambers of the heart. The era of subjective beliefs and subjective experiences is gone and you're looking for objective anchors for the faith. So I see that happens everywhere I travel. So it's not typical Swedish.

Bob Hiller

Yeah, yeah.

Magnus Person

For me it was, you know, Jesus is saying the word, what does it help a man if he wins the whole world but have lost his soul? I experienced that in the midst of success, you know, in Swedish terms, not American mega church.

Mike Horton

But you were well known in Sweden.

Magnus Person

Yeah, we had relative success with our church and we did church plants. And in the midst of that, I was feeling like I was trying to win the world but at the price of losing my soul and losing the soul of the church. So we lost like what is church? I found myself in a work where we much more built a brand and collected followers to a brand than the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Podcast Host

Applying the riches of the Reformation to the modern church. This is White Horse Sin, a weekly roundtable discussion about theology and culture.

Bob Hiller

How does a Pentecostal pastor, shaped by the energy of pop evangelical Pentecostal type worship, become a confessional Lutheran minister in secular Sweden? As Western culture drifts beyond the assumptions of the Enlightenment into a landscape of esoteric spirituality, technological acceleration and immersion and cultural and institutional disillusionment, where do confessional churches even fit in? In this episode of White Horse Inn, we are joined by Lutheran pastor Magnus Person and to learn how to reach people in our post Christian in what might be our post secular age. I'm Bob Hiller and I'm with Mike Horton. Because they don't trust two Lutherans by themselves in a room together.

Mike Horton

Things happen.

Bob Hiller

Yeah, Magnus Reformed. That's True. Magnus, we're glad you're here. Let me introduce you. Magnus is a husband, father and grandfather. He is an ordained Verba Divini minister and works as a pastor for efs, a missional renewal movement in the Swedish Evangelical Lutheran Church. He is also the network coordinator for Reformera and the host of its weekly podcast. He's got a wonderful book called Reclaiming the Christ for your In Community. And if you ever are up late at night and you do not feel like falling asleep, I recommend watching some of his talks from the Here We still stand conferences at 15:17. They are. They are incredible gospel shots of caffeine. You are an incredible speaker and such a joy. And so we are glad to have you with us.

Mike Horton

You put a confessional mind in a Pentecostal body.

Bob Hiller

Yes.

Mike Horton

This is what you get.

Bob Hiller

That's what you get. And that's what we have today. Yeah. So buckle up, here we go.

Magnus Person

No pressure, Magnus. There is not much to live up to.

Bob Hiller

No, no, this is great.

Magnus Person

Well, I'm very happy to be here. And I'm a bit starstruck to be in the same room as Michael Horton. You know, one of his book was very instrumental on my journey from Pentecostal to discovering the reformational doctrines, Christless Christianity and what's so amazing about grace or amazing things. Yeah. So thank you for that.

Mike Horton

Thanks.

Magnus Person

Yeah. And I think I've stolen heaps from you.

Bob Hiller

That's right. That's good.

Mike Horton

Well, I've stolen from somebody else.

Bob Hiller

Well, Magnus, you are a now a confessional Lutheran pastor, but earlier you were part of the sort of pop evangelical, neo Pentecostal, all that kind of, you know, language. We kind of get the idea. Is there a big confessional resurgence in Sweden right now? And can you tell us a little bit of your story of how you came to confessional Lutheranism?

Magnus Person

Yeah. First of all, I think. I think that that is the movement you can see all over the world, not just in Sweden. I think that many, many people are looking for stability and relocating the center of where can a gracious God be found, exhausted by the chase of new highs and feelings and experiences inside the chambers of the heart. The era of subjective beliefs and subjective experiences is gone and you're looking for objective anchors for the faith. So I see that happen everywhere I travel. So it's not typical Swedish.

Bob Hiller

Yeah, yeah.

Magnus Person

For me it was, you know, Jesus is saying the word. What does it help a man if he wins the whole world but have lost his soul? I experienced that in the midst of success, you know, in Swedish terms, not American megachurch.

Mike Horton

But you were well known in Sweden.

Magnus Person

Yeah, we had relative success with our church and we did church plants. And in the midst of that, I was feeling like I was trying to win the world, but at the price of losing my soul and losing the soul of the church. So we lost, like, what is church? I found myself in a work where we much more built a brand and collected followers to a brand than the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Mike Horton

What do you see especially with younger generations in Sweden right now? Of course, there's an influx with immigration, more Muslims, people of other religions from other countries. What are young people searching for? To generalize?

Magnus Person

It's a big question. But I think in Sweden we have always been ahead on the curve in terms of creating this very secular society where freedom and the freedom of expression, and I think we see the backslash of that now where freedom is not a gift for young people. When you present it as, it's totally up to you. Be whatever you want, do whatever you want, be authentic. Exactly. And you have moved instead of submitting to authority outside of yourself. So being yourself, and that is an enormous pressure on you and very exhaustive. Exhaustive. To see that freedom as a gift, that freedom becomes actually a burden.

Bob Hiller

Yeah, yeah.

Mike Horton

So I feel being God is a pretty hard job for a human being.

Magnus Person

We are not qualified to do that.

Mike Horton

This really struck me a couple of days ago as I was looking through Commentary Journal said, and you said that you know this person, Joel Haldorf. Yeah, yeah. Not so secular. Sweden, one of the most irreligious countries on earth, is getting religion. What's going on? And these are some of his comments. We never left religion. Instead we found new gods.

Bob Hiller

Oh, interesting.

Mike Horton

And then in March 2025, the Et Som Institute, Sweden's most comprehensive study of social values, published a report confirming the trend. The share of young Swedes who had attended a church service throughout the year doubled between 2020 and 2024, rising from 17% to 34%. That marked the highest attendance in nearly 20 years. Wow. Belief in God in this age group also climbed from 20 to 34%, reaching its highest level since the data were first collected in 2010. Do you think that this is a part of the so called search for the sacred that Christianity is benefiting from, but also, you know, manifests itself in the spiritual but not religious phenomenon as well?

Magnus Person

Yeah, I think the jury's still out on that question. You know, we're in the beginning, but I believe that the spell of the secular is broken in Sweden. The peak of the secular time is behind us.

Mike Horton

Took it as far as it could go.

Magnus Person

Yeah. And it didn't deliver on all its promises. So it left the whole generation wanting more. Like, is this all you have? A whole young generation? And I wouldn't limit it to a young generation. I would say it's. Even in my generation there's a search for what you were looking for, the sacred. Because the sacred is the opposite of the secular. The holy, the transcendent kind of religion and the objective truth out there somewhere that I can submit to. Because as this report said, and as Luther is saying when he expounds the first commandment, it's like, you know, there is no such thing as not having a God. Everybody has their own God. It's what you come to, to look for security, satisfaction and significance. And I think we're at the point in Sweden where you try to turn everything into a God and they don't qualify for the job.

Bob Hiller

Interesting.

Magnus Person

And here is a great challenge for the church to be ready. But as I said, I don't think we should blow the trumpet and saying the revival is here because I think there is a spiritual curiosity, but still a very doctrinal unclarity.

Mike Horton

You even mentioned before we started that confirmans are disillusioned with the church when they show up and there's no doctrine.

Magnus Person

Exactly. There is research done where interviews with confirmants, you know, the numbers of confirmants increasing all the time the last years. Even confirmants that don't have any baptism to confirm come to church and say, could we solve this? Because I've heard about Jesus on TikTok or wherever they've heard it. I want to be confirmed, but I need to be baptized. Do you only baptize babies or can I be baptized now? And we hear about mainstream Lutheran Church of Sweden, churches that have mass baptisms of 15 year olds that want to be confirmed. Really, but yet we shouldn't. You know, we should be positive and open and see it as an opportunity. But we still need to be careful and say, let's make sure that the church is ready to handle this.

Mike Horton

Yeah, well, to teach them.

Bob Hiller

Yeah. And this is, you've talked about this, that we're in a kind of this post secular time right now. What does the church need to be aware of with these people coming in like they're, they're coming in looking for God. And the church has been, let me ask it this way. In Sweden, has the church kind of been co opted by the culture? And is this something the church needs to wake up and realize everybody, the cultures move beyond where you're at now and they're trying to get back to God. We should probably, we should probably play along at least at this point and start talking about God.

Magnus Person

Yeah, And I think it's even worse than that. I, I don't just think that the church has been co opted and kidnapped by the culture. I think the church, especially in Sweden and in Europe, has, you know, being used as the vehicle.

Bob Hiller

Yeah, interesting.

Magnus Person

Of the very secularization of society precisely

Mike Horton

because of its historical blending of ties to two kingdoms.

Magnus Person

Yeah, exactly. So I see now, you know, staunch good confessional churches, historically, they are repeating what we did as pop Christians. You know, as pop Christians, we were kind of the MTV version of church, had the finger on the pulse and saying, what is people looking for? What is people asking for? And we was experts of the turning the Bible into a self help manual and giving them practical advice of, you know, this is how Christianity could be very practical for you to be a good friend, to be a good husband, to form a great family, to have a great career, to find yourself, to maximize yourself, to express yourself. So we became secular in our way of chasing success because that's the big danger for all churches. And this is the danger also for the Lutheran Church. Now when we see the people are coming back, instead of saying, this is the word of the Lord, listen too much to say, what do you want? How can we be a church that serves you?

Mike Horton

And you're not going to ask, where can I find a gracious God in that?

Magnus Person

No.

Mike Horton

If you start with the world's questions

Magnus Person

exactly back to the words of Jesus, what does it help a man or a church if she wins the whole world but loses her soul? And I think so this is my daily work, is how do we get the church back to the core and finding its own voice?

Mike Horton

How are you? You're also working with other denominations within the umbrella of fellowship.

Magnus Person

Communion.

Mike Horton

Communion, for instance, the Episcopal Church, the Church of England and other mainline denominations. What are you seeing as you travel through these various groups? Is there within these denominations? Do you see a kind of look, we have these treasures. Let's go back and rediscover them.

Magnus Person

I see a resurgence of that in every one of those mainland churches where there is a movement that is proud of our heritage, that also see the fantastic missional strategy in terms, you know, in Sweden, I've been a free church pastor for over 20 years, trying to, you know, work with outreach and evangelize people. But it's so far to reach people in Sweden and to get them come to a warehouse church that is, you know, having a fancy name and being very American, no offense, inspired. Whereas when the Lutheran church on every corner in the society has at least a strong emotional connection with all sweets. So if we want to see Sweden come to Jesus, we should at least try to use that church of Sweden that is so linked to the society, but not just as a cultural platform or with an emotional connection, because my grandmother was buried there, or I baptized my baby there, but I have no faith in it. But, you know, to dig up and present the beautiful treasures of confessional Lutheranism. And I see this resurgence in all of those big main churches.

Bob Hiller

Talk a little bit about what it is. So in your book, you talk about Luther's seven marks, seven marks of the church. How does that help? What is it that Lutheranism or confessionalism at all can actually offer to the society right now that people need list all those marks, go through the seven marks.

Magnus Person

So the seven marks that Luther. Luther is, you know, he's doing this very pastoral. He's speaking from the little human being that is looking, where is Christ's church? Where can I find it? And how do I know this is Christ's church? Because they're in the midst of a break, you know, the Reformation. And is this really real? Is this the Christian church? And a big thing of Luther is proving that we are the Catholic Church. We are nothing new. We are actually the Reformed Church, reforming the church. And he says, this is the seven marks you're gonna look for. You have holy baptism. You have the Word, obviously. You have the sacrament of the altar. You have the sacrament of personal confession and absolution. You have the office of the ministry. You have the divine service. And you have the sign of the cross. Like everywhere you see the church, it's come, you know, in the cruciform, the message is the cross, but also it's the way that God operates. We're not looking for the strong and the mighty and the big and the successful. It's the broken, it's the weak. You know, it's when Paul says in First Corinthians, the message is foolishness, but look at yourself. You are also foolishness. Not many of you are bright and, you know, strong. This is a broken community. And through that, as through the cross, this is where God is operating. So I think what attracted me to Luther and to confessional Lutheranism, and, you know, let me add, in Sweden, we don't call ourselves Lutheran. We call ourselves Evangelicals properly.

Bob Hiller

That's good. That's good.

Magnus Person

Because Luther himself, there is, you know, at least three places where he writes, I ask you, I pray you don't call yourself Lutherans. Don't you get it? Idiots? That's a bad nickname from the foe, because the enemies is calling us Lutherans instead of Christians. You're not Christians. You don't follow Christ. You follow Luther. Well, it's not my teaching. I am not the one that was hanging on the cross. We are evangelical. So I like the expression to be evangelical catholicity because that is proper Reformation. It's not run away, rent a building, buy a keyboard and start a new church. It is working on reforming the church back ad fontes, back to the roots, back to the sources, back to original shape. And I think that is the mission we should take up. And Luther is very interestingly positioned because he's firmly rooted. He do the Reformation as a good Catholic. And his big critique to the Catholic Church is not Catholics are bad. No, you should be a. At least as a good Catholic as me. This is Catholic proper, you know, and I don't speak about Roman Catholic. I speak about universal, you know, holy Christian. But Luther is also the gate where we have all those other streams, you know, created 11 million different denominations and revivals. Where could we find the melting pot where we could take the best from all those movements of God and reunite the Church? You know, I sound naive, so I don't mean one.

Bob Hiller

I know, yeah.

Magnus Person

And I think Luther is the perfect place. And the Confessio Agostana, who is actually an ecumenical confession showing this. So that is a bit of my quest because I see, I travel a lot in ecumenical circles and I can see beauty in everywhere. You know, I can come into a more reformational confessional place and it's very much a religion of the head. And I see how young people rebel against that and it becomes the religion of the heart because they feel it's so heavy. It's so heavy. It's up here all the time. All the time. It's objective. But they want to feel something, they want to be touched. So it's turned into a religion of the heart. Well, it's not long until you're burned out and then it becomes activism. Religion of the hands. We want to do something. I want to make a change. And you know, the problem is all that belongs together. Yeah, right, right, right. So we should find it's not either or it's the proper placement. It's the proper hierarchy of the religion of the head. The religion of the heart and the religion of the hands. If I can use that, yeah, that's help. And as children of the Reformation, we should, I think, protect the beautiful and important parts of all this. Sorry for the long answer.

Bob Hiller

No, we love the long answers. So you're thinking word and sacrament might be the place for people to meet? Like this is at least someplace where we can. At least we can funnel into this that the Word and the sacrament. Because this is what the scriptures give us. This is a place to start building from. And so that creates unity. How does it help someone who's becoming post secular? So someone outside of the church who's just looking for a church, how does word and sacrament give them something to stand on? Why is that a good thing for them to find?

Magnus Person

Speaking from my perspective, I usually say that as a Pentecostal pastor, I was working at manufacturing the presence, always creating atmosphere with worship and the way I preach and you know, manufacture and sometimes kind of presence. And that is exhausting. Whereas now I'm a means.

Mike Horton

And if the electricity goes out, you're

Bob Hiller

dead, you're in a loss.

Magnus Person

You know, what happens to the big screen, the lights? Whereas now I have, in my theology, relocated that presence into the means of grace.

Bob Hiller

Okay.

Magnus Person

I'm a means of grace Christian, which give me rest. And the only thing I come every Sunday is with two empty hands. And I can be sure. And I ask, where can I find what I need? A gracious God that can forgive my sins, that can declare me justified not by my merits coming and showing them from this week, but when I come with my failures, where he's always there in word and the sacrament of the altar. He reminds me of my baptism. That's it.

Mike Horton

That's where he's promised to meet you.

Magnus Person

Yeah. And that's where we always can. And that's very restful for a burned out generation that is burned out on all kinds of highs.

Bob Hiller

Right, right. And so they come to the church and they're being given outside of this reformational mindset they're being given. Okay, we've got the new thing to burn you out. This time God's involved, so it's, you know, more important. Here's another ladder, but it's just another ladder to climb. It's exactly right. So this is great. The gift of God, who is giving gifts to people not as a Santa Claus, but as one who wants to see them freed. I mean, that's a beautiful thing. I love it.

Podcast Host

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Mike Horton

You're very much involved in ecumenical conversations and efforts. Where do you think the sweet spot is between working aggressively toward that goal for which Jesus prayed and realizing that the doctrine there just isn't enough doctrinal unity to justify working together with certain bodies?

Magnus Person

I think the sweet spot and always must be, even if it's not sweet in all, it's the reformational light in terms of the gospel needs to be at the center. And the gospel of justification by grace alone, through faith alone, on the account of Christ alone, that is the very engine of everything.

Mike Horton

If that isn't present, there isn't a church. We're not talking about a healthy church or an unhealthy church, just there isn't a church.

Magnus Person

And also the healthy distinction. This is what the Lutherans can bring to the table. And that was the thing that was setting me free. You know, when I did my study, you know, I crashed and burned in the midst of success. The show must go on on Sundays, but Monday to Friday, I started to study the why did I become captured by the Reformation reading all church history? Why did I see the light at the Reformation? I had a reading course of Lutheran Reformation. The first book they asked me to read was the Freedom of the Christian. Yes, the short, thin booklet. And I was, you know, as a Pentecostal, I was screaming on the top of my lungs, hallelujah. That was the first time I heard the gospel.

Bob Hiller

Yeah.

Magnus Person

Wow. I've been a pastor for almost 20 years and it was the distinction between law and gospel. For the first time I got it so clearly in, what is it, 40 pages? Like the law is important, but the law does this and this is the gospel and the gospel does this and the right distinction. And I think that is necessary for us to have clarity in terms of doctrine as a center.

Mike Horton

Otherwise it's again climbing those ladders and confusing the gospel with the law or the law with the gospel.

Magnus Person

And there is also default mode of the human being that really likes that, likes that. You know, I'm Thinking of the young rich ruler that came to Jesus said, what shall I do?

Mike Horton

Yeah, give me another to do list.

Magnus Person

And that's why we filled our church with people, young people, many times every Sunday in a big building. And we just gave them long lists of principles, keys to that, keys to this to do lists. And they said, wow, to go to this church is like going to ikea. You always get something home that is practical and useful. So the other problem is if we think church health always shows itself in growth, we're wrong. We're wrong, you know, And I think the ones that gonna be ready to reap the harvest now in Sweden, after a long winter of secularity, is the people that have stayed faithful. Not the coolest gang, not the most fresh expressions, but the people that have been faithfully present continuity in the ordinary church life. Nothing spectacular, but it's serious and it's

Mike Horton

sacred and it's over a long period. Yeah, it's like watching the corn grow. But yeah, that's pretty much what Jesus said.

Bob Hiller

That's right.

Magnus Person

And here's the temptation, because at least my human soul and flesh crave so much of approval to my ministry to this day, as a Lutheran, I'm not safe yet, you know, I need to repent and I need to come back again and again because there is always this, well, maybe if we do like this, maybe if we do like this, because there is some kind of functional justification by success, and it's amazing. Of success can cover a multitude of sins.

Bob Hiller

You know, that's an interesting point, isn't it?

Magnus Person

As a former pastor of one of those kind of churches, you get away with a lot of stuff you shouldn't get away with because they say, yeah, but look at him, all the people he gathering.

Bob Hiller

So it must be the fruit of the spirit. That must be what it is. That's right. That's right.

Mike Horton

Justifies all kinds of problems. Yeah, yeah. And in some ways it makes it even worse, doesn't it? The kind of thing that in our line of work, so to speak, is so challenging, it seems like, is that when we use Jesus to justify our own sinful inclinations, it's actually worse than just in. In worldly terms, it's often worse than it. Than it is for a CEO of a Fortune 500 company.

Bob Hiller

Yeah. And the pastor becomes. If you're tying the favor of God to the success of your ministry, when people don't show up one Sunday, you wonder, where is God? Have I failed? And suddenly you go into a crisis, you're no longer Clinging to them. That's right. It's either their fault, they're not listening to good old faithful me, or I must have something going on in my life that's wrong, that the Lord is now taking this away from me. Where did I go wrong? And so now you have to pivot to the newest and best thing that's going to work. What you seem to be suggesting is we do need to pivot, but it's back to the word of God. And just get back to the simple, to use your phrase, ordinary means of grace. Get back to the historical way the Church has always done its job, because that's actually what has stood the test of time, that's actually persevered for 2,000 years.

Magnus Person

Yeah. And go back to the chest of treasures we have in the church. You know, like when Melanchthon writes together with Lutheran the Augsburg Confession, it's not something new. You know, again and again they say this is the old thing. And they quote not just scripture, but the Church fathers to see that we are perfectly in line. And you know, the solution to a church in deformation is not innovation, it's Reformation.

Bob Hiller

Right? Yes, Very good.

Magnus Person

But we need to have a Reformation constantly. Because if we wait 1500 years to have a Reformation, well, there's gonna be a break.

Bob Hiller

Right.

Magnus Person

But if we ourselves, you know, live in continuous repentance, you know, what is Jesus saying to the seven churches in Revelation? It's a message of repentance. You know, remember, remember what you have. Remember where you came from.

Mike Horton

Going back to go forward.

Magnus Person

Exactly. Repent, return.

Mike Horton

Not just going forward, but going backward. If you lost your keys, go back and get them and keep walking.

Magnus Person

But you know, go back and get them where you last had them.

Mike Horton

Where you last had them. Right. Calvin said the same thing to Cardinal Sadoleto when the cardinal was trying to get Geneva to come back to the fold. And he says, cardinalo, you know, I know, you know, because you're a very well educated person. I know that, you know that our church is in far greater conformity with the ancient church than yours is.

Bob Hiller

There's those great lines in the Augsburg the apology to the Augsburg Confession where Rome refutes the Augsburg Confession. And so then the Lutherans respond with the apology. And Melanchthon will have lines like this. We never dreamed you would disagree with

Magnus Person

us on these things.

Bob Hiller

Like this is this has been what the Church has been saying the whole time. We never thought that this would possibly cause a problem.

Magnus Person

How is this the issue?

Bob Hiller

Because this is always what the Church

Magnus Person

is Saying constantly, he says, we have just brought into light what has been there the whole time. But you have obscured it.

Mike Horton

Right.

Magnus Person

With the things that you, the abuses you have moved into.

Bob Hiller

And that's a healthy place for the church to be. Even if you are in a strong confessional church, to always be sort of looking in the mirror of the church's history, to be looking really in the mirror of the Scriptures and then to your confessional standards and saying, are we obscuring this? Are the things we're doing right now actually obscuring the treasures? Are we withholding? So like you're saying, we're always reforming in that sense. We're always going back to the sources, which is the word and the sacrament, the scriptures and what God has given us.

Mike Horton

And that's our theology. Right. My mentor Bob Godfrey often will say, when any story is told, that's tragic. My doctrine of sin can account for that. And, and we have this theology that says we're on our knees holding out our hands, begging for mercy, we can confess our sins. But sometimes in confessional churches we're very proud. I mean, a former professor of mine said we Calvinists are probably the only people on earth who are proud of knowing we're totally depraved. There's a smugness that can keep us from going back. And then you're only a generation away from those kids losing the treasure. And so it's not just liberals, it's also sometimes in our own circles, but

Magnus Person

here you have an arena where we see a resurgence in this generation because what also young people are looking for. And again, not only young people, but people of this modern day, they're looking for anthropology that is realistic because not only in certain kind of churches, but also in this world, you are presenting a picture of a human being that is impossible. Right? Yeah, right. You should have your stack, you should be intelligent, you should be disciplined, you should have your morning routines. And this is not Christians, this is just normal secular Hollywood people saying this, you should eat this salt in the morning, you should have those supplements, eat this salad and you should have this dream, you know, and don't eat those. And this date life and your children. So people are exhausted. And then you have this ongoing cancel culture. People say, well, the church speaks about sin and pointing out sin. Well, look at the world.

Bob Hiller

Right, right, right.

Magnus Person

But there is cancel culture. There is no chance of forgiveness, there is no chance of reconciliation and restoration. You're canceled and you're gone.

Mike Horton

It's very self righteous.

Magnus Person

Yeah. And the files that have Come out now in America. Well, every well known person all over the world back home in Sweden, they're super nervous that their name's gonna show up in those files. And I'm thinking, well, isn't that basic humanity? What if all my emails came out public, all my text messages, all my pictures, my Internet history?

Mike Horton

And one day it will.

Magnus Person

Yeah.

Mike Horton

So you might as well get the forgiveness now.

Magnus Person

Well, let's be proud of a doctrine where we have a beautiful, realistic anthropology.

Mike Horton

Yeah.

Magnus Person

That says, you know what? We believe in both ends. You are broken, you're a failure, you're a sinner. Your default mode is this. But in the same time, Simulus, you're justified in Christ and you can become a new creation, not because your performance, but because his performance for you.

Bob Hiller

Let me ask you this. So we're talking about right now, people who are searching, people are in need. People who are longing for something at the same time. One of the big things, at least that we have over here in the States is a tremendous sense of apathy. People just kind of don't care. And that's both, I think, within and outside the walls of the church, there's this sort of overarching apathy. What does this really have to do with anything? Given what you said, do you actually think there is an apathy or is it just misdirected idolatry, like we're worshiping something else and giving all of our energies to the wrong thing? Or second, Then what do we do about apathy? How do we speak to the person who says, I'm not overwhelmed. I'm actually pretty happy with my life? I listen to Huberman and I'm pulling it off. I'm nailing it. I'm doing my exercises. I feel good. How do we talk to that person?

Magnus Person

Yeah, and I think your diagnosis is totally right. I think a lot of people are at that place. They're not looking for freedom. They're not looking for the forgiveness of sins yet. Until the law comes along, until it hits. So it's a big question. I'm not sure I have all the answers. But from experience and from my conviction in terms of doctrine, I believe in one faithful presence. We need to be the church among the people. We believe in the Lord's Supper as Lutherans. We believe in a real, present Christ, the real presence. Well, I believe also the church need to have a real presence in the community, as Christ is real present in bread and wine. So the church need to be real present in the village. I don't believe in Mega churches where you drive an hour to go to the service. I believe in many smaller churches that is local and I believe we should, you know, there you have the doctrine of vocation. That is another big arena that was very central to the Reformation to sanctify normal, ordinary life. The background I come from, everybody should be extraordinary. Everybody should find their special God given destiny and calling. And nobody wants to clean the toilet, nobody wants to serve their neighbor, nobody wants to be a faithful nurse in the hospital. Well, I think that's the way to even reach those. I have been one of those very intensive evangelization and I don't believe in that anymore. I don't believe in this massive outreach. I believe in God has given you a certain circle of love. It's my neighbors, it's my kids, it's my relatives, it's my workmates. That's my arena and that's where I have my vocation. And being a good neighbor and living so close. So I will hear when your life cracks. You know, I need to be there so I can say, you know, the Wednesday when Bob Hiller's life was cracking, I was there. And that's when your heart is open and I can come. And obviously I believe in preaching. I believe that's what the law we spoke about, the distinguishing between law and gospel. Well, if we only preach good news, well, people that haven't heard the bad news is not ready for the good news. So the law is a fantastic mirror that helps people to actually look at themselves and saying, wow, maybe I'm not that free that I thought I was.

Bob Hiller

So yeah, the Lord tends to send things along that break your apathy. I mean, you think of the prodigal son, we always, in America, we always hear this story and think, oh, the guy bottomed out in Vegas and it all fell apart. But there's also that part of the parable where there's a drought, like something happened that that caused him to now have nothing. And the church needs to be there for the people when the drought comes, when the law hits in that way.

Magnus Person

A year ago, exactly now, I spent five weeks in the waiting room for my radiation therapy. So five days a week for five weeks, I'm sitting together with people. We don't know each other, but we have one thing in common. We have something serious in our bodies. And we gonna sit in this room that is a small Chernobyl and receive this radiation. And for some of them, it was like life threatening. You know, that is where you should be faithful, present. That's where people, they're hybrids or they're very staunch, you know, I can make it. I'm a self mamma. It's broken.

Bob Hiller

It's taken away.

Magnus Person

Yeah. So I believe Jesus have come to set the captives free. So let's start with those that have recognized I'm a captive. So instead of trying to reach the whole world, reach your world.

Bob Hiller

Yes. Excellent.

Magnus Person

I believe that it's by design. We are exactly where we are and just continuity in the ordinary. I believe that is the long term win for the church.

Podcast Host

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