Caroline Maguire: Why do adult friendships feel so hard?

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Caroline McGuire

Hey, it's Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile.

Katie Weber

Now I was looking for fun ways

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Caroline McGuire

network is busy See terms I don't really give like three chances. That little girl in me that you really abused, she's not giving you three chances. So I have a castle. The walls are pretty high also so that sometimes so impossibly high that no one could ever meet the standards. And then there's a drawbridge. And the minute you do something that I think is suspicious or something, I pull that drawbridge.

Women and ADHD Podcast Host

Hello and welcome to the Women and ADHD Podcast. I'm your host, Katie Weber. I was diagnosed with ADHD at the age of 45 and it completely turned my world upside down.

Katie Weber

I've been looking back at so much of my life, school, jobs, my relationships, all of it with this new lens

Women and ADHD Podcast Host

and it has been nothing short of overwhelming.

Katie Weber

I quickly discovered I was not the only woman to have this experience.

Women and ADHD Podcast Host

And now I interview other women who, like me, discovered in adulthood they have ADHD PhD and are finally feeling like they understand who they are and how

Katie Weber

to best lean into their strengths, both professionally and personally. Hello, hello and welcome.

Women and ADHD Podcast Host

Here we are at episode 212 in which I interview Caroline McGuire. Caroline is a certified ADHD coach, an award winning author, and one of the most thoughtful, compassionate voices we have when it comes to friendship and social skills for neurodivergent children and adults. Caroline's first book was why Will no One Play With A Practical Guide for Parents to Help Children with Social and Executive Functioning Challenges Build Friendships. It won multiple awards, including a best Book award from American Book Fest and has been named by Book Authority as one of the best ADHD books of all time. But today we are talking about her brand new book, Friendship Skills for Neurodivergent A Guide for the Anxious, Uniquely Wired and Easily Distracted. This is the first comprehensive, truly neuroaffirming roadmap to adult friendship for ADHD and autistic adults, and I cannot overstate how patient, kind and practical this book is. I found it to be full of real world strategies without ever making you feel broken or too much. In today's conversation, Caroline and I dig into why friendship is so difficult for neurodivergent adults and why this topic has become her niche. We also talk about the difference between connection and belonging and we talk through the friendship mindsets that so many of us fall into without even realizing it. Like scarcity, mindset fortressing, the impulsive friendship cycle, anxious overcorrecting, and how simply having a language for these patterns can be genuinely life changing. Caroline's book is both emotionally validating and incredibly actionable. I found myself seeing my entire friendship history through a new, much kinder lens, so I really hope you enjoy this conversation as much as I did. Without further ado, here is my interview with Caroline McGuire.

Katie Weber

Oh Caroline, thank you so much for being here. Last time I spoke to you was in October of 2024 and you were just starting to write the adult version of your book that you wrote several years ago, why Will Nobody Play With Me? And congratulations. It's finally out in it's called Friendship Skills for Neurodivergent A Guide the Anxious, Uniquely Wired and Easily Distracted. Before we even get started, I just want to thank you wholeheartedly for putting this book into the world. It is an incredible resource. It is so helpful. It is so like I don't. When I was reading it I was thinking like it is so patient and kind and thorough and I think that that is like one of those things as a person who is an or divergent like I really appreciate how much detail you go into and how just like productive it felt to read that book. It's really chock full of skills in a way that I think is not overwhelming and it just was really comforting and so bravo. It's an amazing book and I'm so glad. How was it for you to write it?

Caroline McGuire

Well, thank you first for having me and thank you so much for your compliments of the book. I'm so glad. I really thought about it for a long time before I wrote it and I think that's part of it. I also consulted with a lot of people. Some people are mentioned in the book. Some people are like, love, you don't want to be mentioned. But I think for me writing it, it was actually so much more empowering than writing while noon Play with Me. I knew so much more. I really had such a clear vision. I had a clear enough vision that when other people would weigh in and I knew it wasn't the right thing, I didn't go along. Whereas I feel like with while known Play with Me, I had like, literary agents and people sort of pushing me in a direction. And I'm not saying it's not a great book, but this time I was like, no, I've spoken to like, so many people and like, that's not the directions we need to go. So I also have a new literary agent who's amazing and sweet and wonderful and would never push me about anything. But, you know, I think, like, it just felt like I knew what I was doing a little more. And so that really helped because I knew what to expect. Respect. But also, I've read like every friendship book that comes out, right? And I always read them and I'm like, this is nice. Like, if I could do that, I would totally do that, right? Like, if I could, like, drop a little note to people every day letting them know how I feel or what I like, you know, advice that people give. I'm like, I can't remember to do that. Like, I don't always remember my front door code. People. Like, I'm not going to be able to do some of these things. So I really felt empowered about, like, these are the things that people want and are asking for and that there's no one size fits all. And like, here's the different ways you could friend and the different skills and strategies you might need. Maybe not you personally, Katie. Right. But maybe someone else. Right? And so I. I felt empowered.

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Katie Weber

That's so interesting. And what an interesting parallel to. To this version of, you know, this book as opposed to the first book overall message in your books, which is like, it's not about trying to fit in, right? It's not about trying to fit in. It's trying to, like, find connection on your own terms and by finding it on your own terms. And a lot of us, I think, with an adult diagnosis relate to the feeling that a diagnosis gives us is this. It opens this opportunity to be who we are and to not feel shame about that and then also to like, improve our skills around communication, emotional regulation, whatever it is. But it comes from a place of acceptance and validation. And it sounds like this book mirrors that idea that you were like, okay, I am in a grounded place where I feel really good about my. What I'm writing about and what I need this book to be. And, you know, so I'm not going to, like, fall prey to a lot of the pressures that might exist around me.

Caroline McGuire

I love that you brought this up, too, because I think it really jibes with, like, women in adhd, right? So I think we were socialized a certain way. I think we were told certain things. And I was, like, super aware of that when I was writing the book, and I was super aware of that, just as so many people are coming into this late diagnosis, right? And I really was aware that there's going to be just, like, thousands and thousands of people, right, getting a diagnosis and then saying, okay, how do I live with this diagnosis? How do I thrive? How do I take this information and have this be a new day? And then, oh, P.S. i've never had friends or I've never had the friends I wanted. And, like, what does this new diagnosis do for me in that context, too? Like, I just was so aware of that because I am one of those people who loves the explosion of the numbers. I'm like, hallelujah, the day is coming. It's always been there, right? Like, it's just been this undercurrent. It's been the people you chat with in the nail salon or the supermarket or at a dinner party. And they say, like, I think I might have ADHD now coming and getting that. That diagnosis. So that was also so on my mind. Like, there's all these people who didn't know their brain, and now they have this diagnosis as adults, right? Different from children. And then, like, what do we do with that information? So it's so good that you brought that up, because that was, like, so omnipresent on my mind. I was, like, writing to those people, too.

Katie Weber

We've talked a lot about a lot of our ADHD experience, and a lot of what gets us to our diagnosis in adulthood, especially as women, has nothing to do with the DSM and has nothing to do with a lot of the, like, diagnostic criteria. And so much of it is relational. So much of it is emotional, you know, and. And there is a lot of the executive functioning element, but a lot of it is rooted in how we feel around other people and. And the shame that we feel. And that starts at a really young age, Right? I guess I'm curious, like, how did friendship and friendship skills, like, become your niche?

Caroline McGuire

So, you know, I had a really hard time as a kid, and I didn't have friends. And then I. I sort of figured out how to make friends. And then I got my diagnosis when I was 25, and then I really, really started to figure things out. And I would definitely say, Caroline at that age is different from Caroline now, and my friendships are different. Right? So I always knew that, Right? It was, like, present in my life that I just knew. I was more empowered as I came along, as I got more ADHD support and knowledge. And when I trained to be an ADHD coach, when I came into ADHD coaching 21 years ago, friendship was not discussed. As a matter of fact, this is. You know, the Internet was not as it is now. There weren't podcasts. There weren't. You know, everything was different. And so there were sort of gatekeepers and the magazines and the media and the gatekeepers. I would bring up, like, none of my clients have friends at any age, right? And it was such a hot topic. I worked at the Hallowell center at the time, and it was like, such a hot topic of like, oh, yeah, none of our clients are happy socially. And when I would bring it up to the gatekeepers who got to decide what you spoke about and wrote about, they were like, oh, you know, Caroline, people need to get to work. People need to be on time. Like, this is not as important. And I was like, no, this is the reason you get up in the morning, right? Like, it's not just to be on time to go slog it out in some job. You get up so that you have connection and happiness and joy. And so I was lucky in that Ned Hallowell was really, really supportive. I think his book Connection had came. Had come out by then, and he was just like, yeah, no kidding, right? And he basically endorsed me starting to run groups and starting to do things. And then I just became, like, it became a hyper focus, and I went and I got a master's degree so that I would have the knowledge to. To teach executive function, social, emotional, learning skills at a level that other people didn't. Because I was just like, nobody's talking about this. It kind of irked me. It was like that ADHD thing where you're just like, you telling me, no bothers me, right? I was like, you don't get to. It was like, pre us taking charge as a community kind of, but me going, you don't get to tell us what's important. We get to figure out what's important to us, and we get to tell you what we need. Right. Like, I just thought that that was so irritating, you know, because all the kids I worked with were like, I would love to have a friend. All the adults that I saw were like, something's wrong with me. I don't have friends. And I was just like, no, no, no, no, nothing's wrong with you. You know, like, I just felt so annoyed that it was a topic we were not discussing.

Katie Weber

Yeah, well, and I think that's the same notion as I mentioned earlier, this notion of fitting in. Right? And I think a lot of, like, in terms of a parent, you know, when my kids were little, that was a core concern for me was, like, I wanted them to fit in. I wanted them to be accepted. And I also knew that, like, you had to validate them in terms of who they were. Right. And so I think, you know, a lot of the time when we talk about skill building, it's this notion of, like, okay, these are the rules you need to follow in order to fit in. And as somebody who was a neurodivergent kid would think, like, okay, this feels inauthentic. And then it becomes masking, and then it becomes exhaustion, and then it becomes burnout and isolation, et cetera. So I think a lot of the time, like, as I was reading your book, I was thinking about that real distinction that you have throughout the book, implicitly, of this notion of, like, you're not changing yourself, right? You're not trying to, on focus, fit in. You're not trying to, like, squeeze yourself into a mold. And you want to be able to communicate, and you want to be able to find connection. And the answer is not to just, like, hide or say, like, I tried. That's it. I'm just going to live out the rest of my life in isolation. You know, that it really is about the importance of connection and how do we find that in a way that works for us.

Caroline McGuire

And, Katie, I'm so glad you got that theme. And, like, you're bringing this up because it's so important. Like, there's this thing too, of, like, so if you're fitting in, you're going to a place you're not really into, which goes against interest, which is the fuel of our brain, right? To be with people who don't really know you and they don't accept you, and they maybe they're even tolerating you. The absolute worst feeling in the world is being tolerated, right? And so you're like, Going to be with people you're not so keen on going to a place maybe you don't want to be, to do an activity that probably isn't what, you know, fills your cup. And that. And that's the masking thing. And I think so many of us were socialized, like you said, when your kids were little. I want my kids to have the skills to make friends. I want my clients to have the skills to make friends. But I want them to be able to be authentic and have their values and their humor and their personality show. And I also think there's, like, new research that's come forward that helps us with this, which in the past five or six years, there's a bunch of research that shows that the problem for us in socialization isn't like, you have to follow all these rules and become a robot and mask. It's that there's miscommunication, mismatched expectations, and so typical. People are expecting us to do certain things, behave in certain ways, and when we don't, they're kind of baffled. They're like, why are you not responding to my 8,000 texts? Right? And then if we explain, oh, I have adhd or even just I'm a person who loses track of people, or we give them that context that actually, you know, I'm not saying everyone because there's always mean people, right? But that, that actually people will be accepting, but it's really just that they're kind of baffled by, like, what we're doing, right? So if we say I'm a person who tells you a story that seems like a side quest, but really it's going to loop back around and tell you something that's really important. They'll follow us, right? And if they don't, here's my question. Are they our people? Like, if me talking about special interests or being, you know, a person who does forget to text you back irks them so much, then maybe we're not a match, right? Because I can do a lot of things, but short of becoming super hyper vigilant, I can't have the executive function and management and organization of a typical person unless that's the only thing I do. Which, by the way, in college, I think that is the only thing I did. I think in college, Caroline, like, all I focused on was, like, being social and making sure everything ran smoothly. But that's not life, right? Like, we have kids to raise and mortgages to pay and, like, groceries to buy, you know, like, I can't spend all my life Doing that?

Katie Weber

Yeah. You know, one of the things you had a. Like a YouTube video on your channel about belonging. And this was something I was thinking about a lot with the book, the difference between connection and belonging. Because I feel like oftentimes, you know, I always hear that fact of, like, you know, the most important part to health and longevity is connection. Right. It's the most important part of the human experience. And, like, I feel connected to my spouse. I feel connected to my children. I feel connected to, like, a handful of. Of my BFFs that are my ride or die level of friendship, which we'll get into the. The friendship flavors. But I was like, do I feel a sense of belonging? No. And I wonder if there's something unique to the neurodivergent experience around this outsider, this, like, general outsiderness. Because I. I was thinking a lot about, like, am I lonely? Like, I have people in my life who keep. You know, I'm not a lonely person, but I have had this overall sense of, like, lack of belonging. And. And I'm curious, like, how do you distinguish between connection and belonging to.

Caroline McGuire

You know, it's so interesting that you say this, because I find that that is the truth. Right. I find it for myself, too. I think that we can feel belonging. I feel belonging when I'm at the International Conference on adhd. I feel belonging when I'm in my little True Crime. I am obsessed with true crime, as most people know. And, like, I do these patreons and stuff, and, like, it's, like, crazy. And the amount per month that I'm paying, by the way, like, I should have my head examined. But, like, when I'm in those groups and we're kind of all speaking the same language, even though a lot of the people are typical, I do feel belonging because we have this. We have this beyond connection. Like, they're happy to see me. They're happy to hear from me. As a matter of fact, like, sometimes I'll be like, oh, well, I think that person doesn't read the room. And they'll be like, tell me about this reading the room thing. Like, how do you know someone isn't reading the room? Right? So, like, my expertise, like, actually plays a role. So I think that a lot of times we do feel like outsiders. I mean, a lot of times I am in groups, especially with sort of mean girl moms, and I'm like, how are we on the same planet? Like, I do not understand, like, excluding two children in a class of 15 because you say you can't get enough tickets to a farm birthday party. Like, I would never do that. I'd be like, well, we can't have the birthday party there, right? Like, I just feel like, are we the same planet? Like, who are you? And I think that sometimes I also feel like that. And I know a lot of my clients, especially new diagnosis, right? Especially if they don't know their brain, they feel sort of other. And I think connection is that moment where you zing with someone or you, you feel a kinship with them. Or like you said, you have this, you have this history, right? Like I have a history with someone so I don't have to explain everything to them. But I think belonging is when you feel that like comfort and envelopment and like you are part of the community. And I think we can feel that. But I think a lot of times we have not found it yet or we've found it in a way that is like one particular place or environment. And I never know because the people writing about belonging and stuff and doing the research, they're typical. So they, I mean the way they talk about it is like almost blase. Like you'll just find belonging. And I'm like, it's not that simple for us. And that's why I wrote it as like a goal. But understanding that it is something that it's a journey. Because also if you're masking all the time, people who are high masking always tell me that they just feel like a fish out of water, you know, whenever they're in those high masking situations.

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Katie Weber

Yeah, you know, like I always joked in the past about like having really intense conversations and really being more comfortable about one on one conversations. Right. I mean, this is like, I love the podcast because I have these intense one hour conversations with people and then we go off and we're sort of like, maybe I'll see you again, maybe I won't. But like, you know, and like, I would, you know, at parties in university, I was always the one. You know, everybody else was socializing in the kitchen and I'd be like having this intense conversation about the time space continuum with somebody on a couch. And so it's like I always thought that there was this neurodivergent element to wanting to have one on one intense conversations that maybe then contributed to this lack of like community element. Right. Like, the belonging aspect is much more of like a group, a community, a feeling of, of being welcomed. And they, they do exist. I'm not saying that, like, I also have my like, niche communities, but I think there's something about this, like, preferable friendships. Like, I've just never been like a one of the girls kind of person. I've never, I didn't have bridesmaids. I've never been a bridesmaid. All of my friends are like one friend. They don't know each other and I spend time with each one individually. And I don't think that's a. I feel like that's a pretty typical experience for a lot of neurodivergent people.

Caroline McGuire

I love that you're touching on this because I think it, it normalizes some things. Right. So first of all, there are people who have those, those girl groups. I think it also depends on the person. I'm married, like my best friend from college. So I do admit that I'm sure there are people who don't have that and who are seeking that in a, in a female friend. And I have female friends, but I'm seeking other things from them. Right. I have a best friend. I have someone who's like built in here in the house, whether he likes it or not, who I tell everything to. Right. And, and I always think that that might be part of my thing. But I also think, like, we do want that intense connection. Like, I get DMs. I'm not kidding you. Regularly, I get emails, I get Facebook comments, my YouTube channel, and they're like this. I don't want a bunch of friends. I have acquaintances. I want a best friend or I want a close friend. And I totally think, I think I was very different in college. I wasn't sitting on the couch like you were having the Space time continuing. But I also think I was probably masking, probably trying to fit in more. But I do find that I'm that person now. Like, I will talk in a group, but I. My husband always jokes to me, always, like, can we go anywhere without talking about adhd? And part of it is when I say what I do, people are immediately like, oh my God. So I have this sister in law and like she is, you know, constantly struggling. What do I do? My child, my this, my that. I'm a professor. None of my ADHD students turn in their work. Like, what's that about? You know what I mean? Like, it's always happening. But I think you're right. And I think that just the way our community reacts where they're writing me and they're like, like, get out of here with your acquaintances, right? Like, if you're proposing acquaintances, I don't want it. And that's why I'm very much into. There's no one size fits, all, right? Because what you want and what fills your social cup and what makes you walk away from an evening or an afternoon and say, wow, I really feel good. And that's how you should feel is different than someone else, right? But yeah, I think it is a thing. And I can't really figure out. And of course they do no research on us, right? Like they don't research adults with adhd. Like, it's just, it's barely done. But they do research autism, not just, not as much adults. I just think part of it is that we want deep talk, right? And we don't want that like, superficial thing. And Katie, see if this resonates with you. The other thing I was thinking of when you were speaking was I also think we don't like fakeness. And part of what I struggle with in a group of women especially is I'm with you. And maybe you're not my bosom friend, but you're my friend's friend. And I know that you did leave those two kids off on the birthday. I have a really hard time even being civil to you, you know what I mean? So that's also part of it is that women are socialized in a certain way. Hopefully it's changing, right? And like, I have a really hard time in certain groups, not all, but where there's a lot of hypocrisy or there's cattiness or there's meanness or people are making little comments that I'm supposed to ignore in order to be part of this larger group. And the you know, comments that are mean or whatever. And I'm like, I don't really need this. So I don't know. I always think about that, Katie. Always. I'm like, is there something different about us that I can't just tolerate you saying little catty things and me just going along to get along?

Katie Weber

Well, I feel like there are so many elements that are all wrapped up in that.

Women and ADHD Podcast Host

And.

Katie Weber

And I. And it's one of the reasons why I called your book Patient, because I feel like you really do explore so many elements. And, like, what is it, you know, that constant curiosity about, like, what is it about my brain wiring that leads me to these different mindsets around friendship? Right. And as you were talking, it was reminding me of the fortress mindset, which was the part of your book that made me cry. Like, I fully cried. But just from seeing that protective person and, you know, really having to think about, like, what am I protecting in myself when I do that fortressing. And I feel like we should get into, like, okay, what are. There's so much about this book. I got overwhelmed there for a bit. Okay, let's talk about the friendship mindsets, because I feel like this was. This was definitely the most emotional part of the book for me in general. Thinking about, like, you know, going over all of these ways in which I come in too hot, you know, or then I'm cold, and then I forget about people. Like, all of those ways that, you know, just brought up a lot of those feelings of shame that so many of us have away around, like, not being able to do friendship correctly and. And feeling like everybody got the manual but us. So. So you break it down. You break it down, friendship mindsets into a bunch of different categories. Can we just, like, go through them? The first one is scarcity mindset, which I think a lot of us will relate to. Can you just describe quickly what that is?

Caroline McGuire

Yeah. So the mindset thing I wanted to talk about, because it affects how you interact with people, right? If you think scarcity mindset, there's not that many people in the world. There's so few who accept me. I have to hold on to people because I'm going to be alone otherwise. And you have that scarcity mindset, then you go through life with interactions feeling that way, and instead of saying, wow, you're not treating me very well, or, wow, I end up people pleasing around you, or, wow, I don't really have a good time here. You feel like I have to take it because there's just not that many people in the world or people who will. I'm going to use this word again, tolerate me, which I think tolerate is like, the worst feeling in the world. And so that's. You know, I wanted to talk about the mindsets. I didn't know it would be that emotional. I wanted to talk about them because I fully admit that I've gone through a bunch of these different iterations, Right. Like, I've been through this. And my clients will often they'll reframe things based on the mindset, right? So, you know, they come in and they say, I had this great time. I did this great experience. And then they'll say, like, very all or nothing thinking is one of the mindsets. Like, black and white thinking. Like, oh, like, it was a great time or it was a disaster. Right. I was well accepted, loved, and, you know, happy, or I was miserable. And that's probably not the case. Right. We tend to have a lot of black and white thinking, a lot of all or nothing thinking. And the thing is, a lot of times my clients reframe things. Like, they start out telling me how great it was, and then the shame and the baggage and the rejection sensitivity and all that stuff makes them continually reframed to where by the end of the session, they're like, it was a disaster. Or one social faux pas makes us. Instead of looking at, I was with this person for five hours, and we had a great time. Except the one comment I made that makes us feel such shame and such anxiety. And so that. I mean, I thought the mindsets were important to sort of have us know so that we can catch ourselves and say, like, oh, Caroline, this is you anxiously overcorrecting is one where you make that faux pas that no one noticed. And then we ruminate about it, and then we send 45 texts to people explaining ourselves. And now it becomes this, like, sort of cringy thing, and we kind of overcorrect or. And it lops into people pleasing. And so I wanted people to be aware. I was an anxious overcorrector in college. I was totally an anxious overcorrector. And I think it was confidence and practice and me addressing that and saying, like, do not explain this, because it wasn't a big deal. So I wanted to address those things because I think they affect how. How we approach friendships and relationships.

Katie Weber

Yeah, right. Exactly. And. And. And, yeah, I love what you said about just, like, having the language to be able to be mindful of our own behaviors. And. And sort of stop. Are the facts here. Like, is this A mindset that I'm falling into? Or is this, you know, can I take a moment to. To really take a step back and take a bit of a, you know, a macro look at, like, what actually happened and what is. What is the truth here? And so there's the scarcity mindset, there's the rushing in mindset, which I feel like, you know, I did a lot more when I was younger than I do now. Although, you know, my husband and I basically met and we were like, oh, we're going to get married, so let's not waste any time. He's. And he's, you know, we've been inseparable for the last 25 years, so I'm glad it worked. But, you know, you look back and you're sort of like, huh, maybe we should have taken it a bit slower. But that's how my friendships have always been. Like, and I think it's connected to the scarcity mindset a little bit in that way of, like, oh, here is this person. This is. This connection I'm feeling is rare, and I don't want to lose this. Like, I'm going to go all in on this person because this person might be my soulmate. And we skip from the acquaintance level to, like, the you're my bestie level so quickly that it ends up kind of being problematic, which you talk about in the book.

Caroline McGuire

Yeah, the impulsive friendship cycle I talk about in the book, and I totally used to be an impulsive friendship cycle person. And, you know, then I would get into trouble. Like, I joke about this all the time, but, like, it's the truth. Like, I was once at breakfast with someone and I was like, oh, you're a racist and you're like, a terrible person. And I've rushed into this relationship with you, you know, and. And people actually, since they've been reading the book, have been writing me their, like, stories, right? Like, people have come up to me when I've given speeches and stuff and then. And like, sometimes they're like, I'm trapped. Send help. I don't know what to do. I got myself into this relationship way too fast. And it's like, I get it. We feel that zing. It's akin to falling in love. The chemicals come. We don't always feel that connection. I would argue a lot of the things I offer in the book are how to increase the number of people we meet and the kinds of people who are our people so that we feel that connection more, you know, in areas of high interest and High connection. But I do get how it happens, because I was an impulsive friendship person. And I think the problem, too, is sometimes the people we're meeting don't want to be an impulsive friendship person. Right. So we take it so personally. We're like, oh, my God, I asked them to, like, get married, and they don't want to, and I'm so rejected. And when my clients tell me the story or other people, I'm like, well, no, I think they're just taking it at a pace where they're moving through the stages of friendship and you've skipped all the stages, and they might even be a little bit weirded out, or they might be like, me, where I'm a former impulsive person. So I put in place pauses so that I don't end up in a situation where I'm in a relationship that doesn't work for me in any way because I rushed in. Like, and I've had relationships that did work, but I also have ones that did not.

Women and ADHD Podcast Host

Right.

Caroline McGuire

Well.

Katie Weber

And I think also, like, that's where the fortressing part comes from for me, which is, like, I think we're a lot closer than we probably are. And then all of a sudden, you don't text me in what I feel is an appropriate amount of time to text me back, and then I get personally offended and feel rejection, and then the wall goes up. So let's talk about fortressing, because, like I said, that was probably the biggest, like, gut punch for me in terms of some of the. Some of the patterns and trends I could look back over my life and see with friendships.

Caroline McGuire

Yeah, I heard about fortressing on the Internet, and it resonated with me so much, and I totally know that I do it. And I would love to hear from people. Do other people who were bullied and stuff do this? I bet they do. I did consult researchers and stuff about it and was like, is this just a me thing? And they were like, no, I think this is what it is. And what it basically is is that I don't really give, like, three chances. Right. That little girl in me that you really abused, she's not giving you three chances. So I have a castle. The walls are pretty high also, so that sometimes so impossibly high that no one could ever meet the standard. Right. And then there's a drawbridge. And the minute you do something that I think is suspicious or something, I pull that drawbridge up. And I think that it's good to know about ourselves, because sometimes there is a simple explanation for why someone didn't text back or why they canceled or why they aren't, you know, maybe moving through the stages of friendship as fast as you are. Sometimes they are. There are red flags. And I have a whole chapter on how do you know if someone will be a good friend? And please don't say. I'm not saying Paying attention to red flags. Pay attention. But I think if you're a fortresser, you have to know it, because you have to know that I am less likely to give second chances. I am less likely to allow for things like, as much as I do this for a living, I have to guard against fortressing because that's a self protective instinct that developed at some point. Right. At some point, I developed a self protective instinct that said, hey, I'm an incredibly loyal, dedicated person, and if you don't show me that kind of loyalty, I'm pulling my drawbridge up. And so I think it's just good to know so that if you are that person, you can figure out how much do I want to be this person and where does this hold me back and where am I? Also maybe overreacting a little bit. And like, human beings make mistakes. Is it a red flag or is it just like a. They didn't text back and I've decided it's a red flag. Right, right.

Katie Weber

And I think that a lot of it is about vulnerability. Like, how ready am I to be vulnerable with this person? And if I'm in a moment where I have to show vulnerability and say, like, my feelings are hurt by because you didn't text me back, like, that's a lot easier to do with my ride or die bestie than it is with somebody I haven't known so long. And so that's what I really loved about the flavors of friendship that you. That you break down in the book too, the five levels of friendship. Because I think it's super helpful to then say, like, okay, where is this person in these friendship levels and do I have too many expectations right now? Like, it's so practical. And I love how you use like the ice cream scoop analogy of like, buildings building friendships slower, even if they feel more intense. And like, why it's important for us. Just in terms of emotional clarity about some of those emotional reactions and some of the rejection sensitivity. I find it's really helpful to then have this. You talk about gps, right? It's like this map of our friendships in terms of like, okay, is my emotional reaction relative to the level of this acquaintance right now? And so it's so practical. So thank you for that and thank you for taking the time to break that down. So we have the level one, which is like the friendly strangers, right? Or friendly acquaintances. You put social media into that category, but I think social media is kind of. It's a strange beast, right? In terms of where people fall, it

Caroline McGuire

is a strange beast. And so I'm contradicting myself a little bit because it is a strange beast, right? So, like, I put it into that friendly stranger. I want people to. To be aware of, you know, some of those true crime people. I know everything about them as podcasters, but they don't know me. Right. But I also want to say that. I'm also saying if you are anxious or you feel socially awkward or you feel like, I don't know if I have the guts to try again, this is really hard. You could join an online group and you can find kinship and connection there. And so it's not that I'm saying you can't have a close, close friend that you meet online, but I think we just have to remember that sometimes we follow someone, we watch their videos, we feel that connection. Just like the person you see at the coffee shop every day and you wave to is not a friend, right? They're an acquaintance. They're a person you say hello to. And then the biggest pitfall I see us having is more acquaintances that we have. Acquaintances. Or maybe they're even activity buddies. You know, someone you see at yoga, someone you talk to. Maybe they're even moving into the emerging friend category where you're becoming friends. But we start to have expectations of them, of a friend, of a ride or die friend, and we start to lean on them in that way. And this is not me saying that we're too much and that we should curb our personality. This is me, though, saying that if you lean on someone who's an acquaintance and they disappoint you, that's because they are treating you like an acquaintance, right? It doesn't mean that they're a bad person or that the relationship is doomed. And that's, I think, a big thing for us. A lot of people, I think, because they move really quickly through the stages of friendship and they go to sort of close friend with someone or they expect things of them. I think we have to remember the other person is part of this, and they don't always move so fast, and they may not reciprocally be feeling like we're a close friend. They might be like, oh, this is.

Katie Weber

Is a.

Caroline McGuire

This is an Acquaintance or this is the next level, which is an emerging friend, someone I'm getting to know rather than a friend. And I think that moving through so fast, it makes it harder for us to build the kind of trust and closeness and build that sort of foundation. And I know that we like to move fast a lot of times, and I get that. But I think that slowing down a little bit gives us actually the ability to build a better friendship that is more reciprocal. Right.

Katie Weber

And I think also just it, there's a roadmap that if you feel like things have gone wrong, if you feel like you're no longer in this wonderful dopamine heavy situation, there is a way to you, for you to kind of look at this autopsy of like, okay, what, what's happening here? With a lot more clarity, I think, than most of the time where we're like, what's wrong with me? It must be me. I'm terrible. End of story, right? To look at like, okay, what, what happened here? So there was the emerging friend level and then there was the like moving into close friend, your ride or die inner circle, which you sort of felt like usually about two or three. Does that include spouse?

Caroline McGuire

No, I don't think that includes spouse. Right. But I think that, I think we really want those close friends. I think we want those ride or die friends. I think some people have never had them and that's why they want them. I think also sometimes we're looking for someone, you know, and it's. It's Hollywood. I blame Hollywood because they make it seem like you're going to have this friend who's ride or die who functions like a spouse. This is where it sort of depends on the person. If someone's looking from that, for me, they're not going to get it because I have a spouse who is my sort of that person. I can be your close friend, but I'm not going to function like a spouse for you. I'm not going to talk to you six times a day. I just don't have the bandwidth and I don't have that need. And that's the piece I'm trying to talk about in here. The other person you're in reciprocity with, they have certain needs. And I think sometimes we forget we have these needs and they feel so big that we forget that the other person has needs and the other person has things they want or don't want. And so I think we can have those close friends. I think we build toward them and I think we have to find someone who is our people. And I think those, those friendships build over time. And you, you only get two or three, you know, in a lifetime. And sometimes we do have, and I have a lot on this, friendship, breakups, ghosting friendships that we no longer, you know, maybe you're newly diagnosed and the person you thought would support you most doesn't support you at all. And I tell stories about stuff like that in the book for me personally, where someone used to be what I thought I needed and then they're not anymore. And then I have a chapter on troubleshooting. So if you are finding like, oh, I'm not feeling the same reciprocity or my friendships feel stuck, you can look at what's going on and what are the different moving pieces. And maybe it is just, it's taking time that we don't expect it to. Maybe it is something that, you know, a skill we need to build build or putting more time into it. But I know that that's so hard. We get stuck and we don't. We don't have anyone to talk to about it. We don't know what to do.

Women and ADHD Podcast Host

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Katie Weber

You talk about your friendship with Jessica McCabe a lot in the book and her desire to kind of get some IRL friends in her neighborhood. She felt like a lot of her friends were online and this desire to have, like, a plop friend, which I love that term. Just somebody to, like, sit down with, right? Somebody. Okay, what is a plop friend?

Caroline McGuire

So plop friend is someone like, you pick up the mail from the mailbox on the way in to the door that's open, because you're allowed to open the door, and you go and you sit on the couch. Maybe you take off your shoes and you sit on the couch and you talk about your day or you talk about something that's happened, and you sort of plop onto that couch with them. And, you know, there is the in real life, in person element to it, and there is that intimacy to it, right? Like, they know about your life. They know about the people in your life. And you can, you know, you can just launch into, like, okay, you know, my. You know, I know one point when I was working in a corporation, I had, like, six different bosses, right? So you can be like, boss number five said this today. And they are not like, wait, you have five bosses, right? They're like, they're up on it. And it was something that Jessica expressed to me that she wanted during this whole process of her writing her book and me helping her and me writing my book. And I wanted to include it, you know, with her permission, because I felt like it's something that a lot of ADHD people really want. I also thought it was sort of a magical story in the sense of, like, it's a journey to get to plop. And you might find other things along the way. And don't discount all those things, right? You might find a me who is a virtual plop. And you, when you're together, it's great. It's not that you give up on that other plop. It's just like, you might find other things along the way and you're trying to get to that dream that you have of. Of plop.

Katie Weber

Beautiful quotes. Which reminds me, like, do you feel like there are unique benefits to having IRL friends? I mean, if you're somebody who is more inclined to have online friends, should you be looking for some real life friends? Like, is. Are there unique benefits to in person friends?

Caroline McGuire

I mean, of course there are. Here's the thing though. I feel like the online friends were really discounted in the past. Like, people acted like they weren't real friends. You know, David Gurk, head of the ADD Coach Academy, who I've known for 25 years, is my real friend. Right. He knows everything about me. We don't see each other in person except maybe once or twice a year. You might be. I met tons of people, even podcasters as I'm doing this, who are like, you know, this person I podcast with, I met in a group or they're part of a group or part of Al Anon or part of an online role play group and they are really, really close. I just think it's about, what do you want? Right. So there are people who really find that their social cup is filled up with these online relationships. They also can be a jumping off point. I get confidence in this group. I get confidence by having a really good online friendship. And then that confidence means I can go out and do in person things that I couldn't do before because I didn't feel confident about it. Are there benefits? Yeah, I mean, an in person friend can come over to my house and give me a hug. Right? They can do things that an online friend can't do. But I also just want to say, like, I don't. I think in the past people who had only online friends were really maligned. And I, I told, I tell a story in the book where, you know, I was part of this group I was going in every month helping people make friends, adults. And one of the women just hadn't met anyone she liked. And then she met someone through a group and it was like an hour and a half away in person. And I just said, it's your choice, but would you rather be with people in your hometown who you just don't really click with or travel an hour and a half once a month and then have the rest of the relationship be online? And without hesitation she said, I want that because that was like the best experience I've had in years. And so I just want people to think about it, like sort of out of the box and realize that like I'm not saying you can't have plop or you can't have in person, but if you just don't feel that connection and then you feel it online, maybe that's good for you. Right. It's about choice, which we didn't have as kids. We were told to be something else and not to think about this in a more strategic, choice based way.

Katie Weber

Right. Yeah. It reminds me of one of my favorite quotes from Glennon Doyle. I have it on a T shirt that says you'll be too much for some people. Those are not your people. And that same idea of just like, it's not about trying to fit in, it's not about trying to make do with the best. It's really about finding your people and that sense of belonging and how do we find it and it's going to look different for everybody.

Caroline McGuire

Yes, absolutely. That's absolutely what I'm saying. I don't have that T shirt, but I feel like I need to get that T shirt.

Katie Weber

Well and I think, you know, I think it's this idea of just like doing things without shame. And I think that's was something you were talking about with like choosing where you find your belonging. It doesn't matter. Right. There is no right or wrong. It's really about like how you feel and also not feeling like there's a right way and a wrong way. And I think that that's, that's tied into a lot of the way that we think. I mean even when I was talking about like this book is so helpful because it gives me a roadmap and I can, a checklist and I can make sure, you know, and I have those thoughts all the time which are to me like, make me laugh because I'm like, this is not neurodivergent at all, but where I'm like, I'll say like how many, how many exactly how many acquaintances is an acceptable amount of acquaintances and how many acceptable emerging friends should I have? Like, I constantly want to be doing things right and I know that that is, you know, that's, that's something I'm, I'm always striving for. And so again like recognizing that that's something I do and not feeling shame about it is so helpful. And you talk about like communisplation and you talked about that in your, in your earlier book too with this notion of like explaining our needs and explaining who we are to other people in a way that is not an apology but just really like an Explanation. How do we get other people to do that for us?

Caroline McGuire

You mean they explain us or they. Or they anticipate our needs?

Katie Weber

Well, no, I think it's like you were talking earlier about, like, you know, sometimes we have to be attuned to friendships and their needs, and that's not something I'm necessarily very good at, right? So I'm really good at communisplaining myself. But I'm not always going to notice some of those nuances in an early friendship that I might mishap. And then is there a way to encourage other people to communicate to us rather than just sort of, like, ghosting us?

Caroline McGuire

Oh, my God, absolutely. Like, I think that's part of communist blame. Like, I'm not a person who always notices things. I have a family friend, Janet. I'll call her out. I don't want to say her last name, but Janet always used to say, when I was growing up, she was like, my mom's. One of my mom's close friends. She would say, I'm not an observant person, right? And I loved that because she would just say to people, like, I'm not an observant person. Like, you have to tell me stuff. And, you know, I think to say, like, I might miss stuff, you know, And I think busy people do this, right? Busy people say, you know, I had a friend who was in the middle of a divorce, and she said to me, like, I'm so busy that the day is over before it begins. But, like, if you need something, you raise your hand and say, I need you. And, like, shake me a little bit and I'll be there, right? I don't mean to be in this, like, vortex where I don't communicate and I'm just whatever. But, like, her life was really busy. And I think we can say to people, you know, I sometimes don't notice, or I sometimes miss stuff, but, like, let me know. And I think it's not as aberrant as we fear it is, right? And I think that the more we say, even, like, if something happens, instead of coming from a place of shame, saying, like, wow, I missed that. Like, I didn't know that was going on for you, or I didn't realize that party was so horrible for you, next time, say to me, and I'll leave with you. Right? Like. And I think that is about, like, sort of upping our communication game, which I don't think is masking. I think it's a skill. I mean, how many hundreds of thousands of books are Built about business communication. Some of them are really about that. Right. So I do think there is a way, and I do think it behooves us because I think it shows the kindness and the compassion that we really feel and are. Right. I also think there is, you know, skills around perspective taking and, like, thinking about what might be going on in someone's life that we can build. But I really, truly think we're gonna miss stuff, and that's okay. We just have to ask people to let us know or take that pause in a situation to say, hmm, am I missing something here?

Katie Weber

Yeah, I appreciate that. Also, like, the more we communesplain, the more we're creating a safe space within that relationship for that sort of reciprocal honesty and vulnerability. And again, like, without. Without a sense of shame or judgment.

Caroline McGuire

Yeah. I mean, whenever I've communisplained. Okay. And. And I use this with my clients, and people are now using it all over the world. Right. The reception is pretty positive. Right. Am I promising everyone's going to. No. I think it's akin to allergies. Right. Like, are there people who have dinners at a place where a person who's allergic to garlic can't eat and invite them and know they're allergic to garlic? Yes. Are they your people? Absolutely not. Because that's rude. Right. And so I think, like, are there people who aren't going to take in the communication? Yes. But the vast majority, I think, akin to sort of the allergy discussion will go, oh, I didn't know that. Thank you for telling me.

Katie Weber

Yeah, I like that analogy. Now, one of the things you talk about in the book, Automating Friendships for those of us who struggle with memory and executive functioning and the page I've taken in my own friendship, so two of my closest friends who are my ride or dies, one of them is virtual. We have not lived in the Same City for 25 years at this point. So we meet on Zoom, and then the other one is local, but we forget to keep in touch. Right. So we have this rule, which I took from the page of Dentist's Office, which is, you don't leave the other person without scheduling in your calendar the next time you're going to meet.

Caroline McGuire

Absolutely.

Katie Weber

So helpful. Like, we just. Absolutely. It's like, I. We have to have something in the calendar and we meet because we're like, in person. Intense coffee, conversations. And then, okay, let's do this again in two weeks. Let's do this again in a month. What are some of the. What's like Your number one, structured socializing or automation tip for friendships, I think

Caroline McGuire

pick stuff that has an automatic, you know, it's every Thursday kind of thing. Or ask people to make it that right. Like, I can't. Like, I know I was a member of a book club and it was like one every Wednesday forever. I mean, for 10 years. And then people moved, people went away. And then it became like, scheduling every month. And I just said, I can't do this. Right. My schedule is sometimes set two years in advance. Like, I can't move the time around. And that gives people choice. People can say, too bad, Caroline, we love you. Bye, bye. Or if you say like, I love this group. I love coming to this. I love when we meet for coffee. I love when we go to the farmer's market together. Can we make this like an automatic scheduled thing or schedule at the end of each time? Like you said, it gives people the opportunity. But I think making it automatic is part of the key. And there are groups and there are social things that are very automatic. And I. I think that's key. And then I have something in about asking yourself questions before you cancel. Because a lot of us will cancel a lot. Even if it's on autopilot, even if it is, you know, once a month, every Thursday. And I think we have to look at that and sort of. I'm not saying we're going to become perfect. I'm not looking for that. But I do think we have to look at that and say, how much do I cancel? And what's the price on friendships for canceling all the time?

Katie Weber

Well, gosh, I mean, this. This was one of those books where, again, like, I was like, I want everybody to read this book. Especially, like, you know, anyone who has ever felt awkward or like they didn't belong or felt like they just are not doing friendship correctly. This book was so helpful. It's so, like, productive. I don't know what the word is. What am I? What am I?

Caroline McGuire

Sticky. That's what my editor says. She's like, everything's very snackable and sticky. I don't. I don't know if that's the right word. But that's the thing. She always says, like, if I turned in a chapter and it wasn't snackable and sticky, we would, like, rework it so that it was more like, here's strategies and here's ideas. And, like, one of the things I say in the book is take what you want and leave the rest. Right? It's not prescriptive. It's not like, oh, Katie, I'm going to tell you how to do this, and it's my way or the highway really isn't that. It's like, if you don't resonate with this or it won't work for you, don't do it. You know? But if you're looking for solutions in different areas that tend to affect friendship for neurodivergent adults, it's here, right? And you can pick from it.

Katie Weber

Yeah, Right. But I think there's like, there's a fine line. Like, sometimes a book can be too vague in terms of, like, you know, just put yourself out there and you're like, what does that mean? What does that involve?

Women and ADHD Podcast Host

I need a roadmap.

Katie Weber

And there are, like, so many roadmaps in this book that I find really helpful. And also there's that sense of, like, you're doing okay, and here are some skills that are going to work for you if you feel like something hasn't been working. And so it's just an incredibly, like, curious, validating book. And so thank you for writing it. I know it's. We've been all have been excited for this to come out, and here it is. And do you have another, like, I know you're still kind of in the relax, I guess you're in the promotion stage and taking a breather phase. But I can't help but ask, like, Caroline, is what's next on the horizon for you?

Caroline McGuire

I do have ideas for other books. My goal is to just really get this out there so that the publishing world will let me do what I want, which is a thing. Right. Just so people know in terms of purchasing and purchasing quickly, it is a thing in the publishing world. Jessica McCabe's book being successful helped others of us have the publishing world say, oh, okay, you ADHD people are a thing. I might let you write a book. It really is. When I wrote why well Known Play With Me, they would not let me put diet diagnostic labels in. They were like, you can't. It won't sell. That's a niche book. And there's nothing wrong with niche books, but they don't get national attention and they don't get NPR and they don't get the things that help us spread this to everyone. Right. And so I was really lucky that some successes made them say, oh, you know, like, they have an entire imprint at Hachette now about inclusion and diversity, and we're part of that. And there's many other books coming out from that imprint. So I'm just trying to let people know that friendship skills for neurodivergent adults is out there. And then, you know, January, February, I'll pause and think about what's next. But I really want people to have this because we need to end the shame cycle. We haven't done anything wrong. We need to stop feeling ashamed.

Katie Weber

Yeah. And it's never too late. Right. I'm 51, and I was so appreciative of this book to feel like I just came away from it with so many good answers and also some feeling like I was equipped to meet some of those more emotional hurdles. And I'm not yet ready to climb into my hermit den for the rest of my life.

Caroline McGuire

So, yeah, no, don't climb in the den. Don't go to the den.

Katie Weber

But just that a notion of, like, you know, friendship skills aren't just for. For kids.

Caroline McGuire

No, no. And honestly, as parents, the more we learn, the more we can help our kids and the happier we are. Like, our kids want us to be happy. Right. And so, yeah, no, it's not over. And it's. And as we have all these late diagnosis folks, to me, it's a new day. Whatever happened before is before you knew your brain. I know it's easier said than done to let go of it. I'm not delusional. But I also would love to just say, please let go of it. You didn't know. Don't beat yourself up for it anymore. You didn't understand how your brain worked. And that's a journey.

Katie Weber

Oh, beautifully said. Okay, so quickly, where is the best place to find you, Caroline? And where should people buy your book? Do you want them to buy it from your website or Amazon or all of the above?

Caroline McGuire

You can buy the book anywhere books are sold.

Katie Weber

Okay.

Caroline McGuire

And if you can't afford a book, please go to a library and request it. That really, really helps. And it helps other people then within the library network get it. So anywhere books are sold, it is on audiobook, and you can use your audible points, and it's been doing very, very well on audible because we like audiobooks. I love audiobooks. And you can reach me @authorcarolinem is my Instagram and my YouTube channel, and everything flows from there. And please let me know. But, you know, I would love people to. To read and then to let me know how you feel and any questions you have.

Katie Weber

And you have your wonderful podcast, too.

Women and ADHD Podcast Host

Holy moly.

Caroline McGuire

Which I have to get back to. But I haven't been recording because I've been doing all this.

Katie Weber

Well, I hope you do. It's some wonderful conversations there too. So I'll have links to all of that in the show notes. But thank you so much Caroline. This has been great and really appreciate all the work you do in this field.

Caroline McGuire

Thank you.

Katie Weber

You too.

Caroline McGuire

I appreciate you having me on. I'm so happy we got to get together again.

Katie Weber

There you have it.

Women and ADHD Podcast Host

Thank you for listening and I really hope you enjoyed this episode of the Women and ADHD Podcast. If you'd like to find out more about me and my coaching programs, head over to womenandadhd.com if you're a woman who was diagnosed with ADHD and you'd like to apply to be a guest on this podcast, visit womeninadhd.com podcastguest and you can find that link in the episode show notes. Also, you know we ADHD crave feedback and I would really appreciate hearing from you, the listener. Please take a moment to leave me a review on Apple Podcasts or Audible

Katie Weber

and if that feels like too much and I totally get it, please just take a few seconds right now to give me a five star rating or

Women and ADHD Podcast Host

share this episode on your own social media to help reach more women who maybe have yet to discover and lean into this gift of neurodivergency and they may be struggling and they don't even know why.

Katie Weber

I'll see you next time when I

Women and ADHD Podcast Host

interview another amazing woman who discovered she's not lazy or crazy or broken. But she has ADHD and she's now on the path to understanding her neurodivergent mind and finally using this gift to her advantage.

Katie Weber

Take care till then.

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