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Katie Weber

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Jennifer Free

We can regulate through avoidance. Simply don't do the thing and you're going to be less dysregulated. But obviously we're not looking to do that and then we're not doing that on purpose. But we just really want to be aware of what we're doing and how it's soothing, the dysregulation. And that is not the same as Healing the Dysregulation.

Katie Weber

Hello, and welcome to the Women and ADHD podcast. I'm your host, Katie Weber. I was diagnosed with ADHD at the age of 45, and it completely turned my world upside down. I've been looking back at so much of my life, school, jobs, my relationships, all of it, with this new lens, and it has been nothing short of overwhelming. I quickly discovered I was not the only woman to have this experience. And now I interview other women who, like me, discovered in adulthood they have ADHD and are finally feeling like they understand who they are and how to best lean into their strengths, both professionally and personally. Hello, and welcome back to the Women in ADHD podcast. Here we are at episode 209 in which I interview Jenna Free. Jenna is a therapist living in Calgary, Alberta, who not only specializes in working with clients with adhd, but also has ADHD herself. Jenna was diagnosed with ADHD at the age of 32 while she was in grad school with two young children at home. So, yes, she definitely gets the overwhelm. But instead of accepting the standard narrative that ADHD women are just destined to live in a constant state of frantic energy followed by crashes, she started asking a different question. What if the struggle isn't actually inevitable? What if what we are calling ADHD symptoms are actually signs of a dysregulated nervous system stuck in chronic fight or flight? In today's episode, we dive into Jenna's journey, her insights on ADHD regulation and how she helps others through her ADHD regulation groups and certification program. And we also chat about her brand new book, the Simple Guide to adhd. The secret to finding balance, getting things done and enjoying your life. We dive into the difference between external regulation, like all those apps and timers and productivity systems we're always hearing about, and internal regulation, which is about healing dysregulation at its root, and recognizing that when we are regulated, we actually have far more capacity than we realize. I really enjoyed this conversation. I know you will, too. So without further ado, here is my interview with Jennifer. Well, Jennifer, thank you so much for joining me. Welcome to the podcast. It's great to have you.

Jennifer Free

Thank you for having me.

Katie Weber

So, before we talk about your lovely new book, congratulations, by the way.

Jennifer Free

Thank you.

Katie Weber

I want to know a little bit about you and your adult diagnosis. Like, how old were you? How long ago were you diagnosed and what was happening? I know in the book you talk about how you were in grad school at the time with two kids. So I'm like, all right, the signs were probably.

Jennifer Free

That'll do it all there, right?

Katie Weber

That'll do it. I know. I always joke. I'm like, nobody ever gets their ADHD diagnosis because they're like, my life is going great. I need a name for this superpower. But, yeah. What were some of the things that first tipped you off that, like, I should look into this?

Jennifer Free

Yes. So my whole life, I always thought, I'm so. I'm so unique. I think so differently. Oh, aren't I cool? I really did see it as kind of like, it's just who I am as a person. But I also struggled behind the scenes, and I didn't know what that was about. But then, like you mentioned, I had two kids in a year and a half. I went back to grad school when my first was one. I think, like, don't know what I was thinking. But then when all of that was kind of coming to a peak, I really had the sensation of, like, I'm just keeping my head above water. This doesn't feel, quote, unquote, normal. My postpartum was very rough. But I do think there is some, you know, ADHD component to that of dysregulation when your hormones are all over the place, as well as probably a dopamine crash when you've been living a big, full life and then you're now at home 24 hours a day holding a baby. So I really felt, this is unmanageable. I can't live this way. I'm so unhappy. I'm so overwhelmed. Like, the thought of sweeping the floor was like climbing a mountain. And I didn't think that was typical. So I did start doing some research. It wasn't the old, like, TikTok feeding me posts and me going, whoa, this must be it. It was a little bit more me seeking it, probably just through Google of, like, I think something's up here. And so I went and got an assessment, got a yes, and it did feel really good. Like, okay, I'm not going crazy. There really is something here. And for me, it was all relief. I know a lot of people can also have grief and some difficult feelings about it, but I was 32, so that was almost five years ago now, which time flies. It's been such a whirlwind since. But then, as someone just finishing their school to become a therapist, I kind of glommed onto this niche and have been kind of hitting the ground running ever since.

Katie Weber

Well, yeah, but I mean, it's not just a niche, you know, to glom onto, like, I think there's a real. There's a real gap in mental health care for adhd, especially adult diagnosed ADHD women. And like, one of the reasons why I went back to grad school for mental health counseling was so many clients coming to me saying, I had a really bad experience with therapy. You know, I don't want to talk about how my feelings feel in my body anymore. Like, I just want. I just want to figure out how to, like, do the things and remember my groceries and, you know, feel like I'm not constantly struggling and overwhelmed all the time. Like, I want to learn skills. And, you know, it was that feeling of like, there is a real gap. And, you know, one of the things I've noticed just going back to school in the last three years has been nobody is talking about neurodivergence. It's just not in the curriculum. And if they do talk about neurodivergence, they're talking about it in terms of like, high support needs. And they're not talking about the. The archetype of this ADHD woman that so many of us are relating to, of the, like, constantly overwhelmed and also getting a lot of stuff done and everybody in your life saying things like, I don't know how you do it, and you being like, I don't know how I do it either, and I'm really struggling, somebody help me. But like, almost like being motivated by that, like, our sense of self worth, I think is so tied into over functioning. Right?

Jennifer Free

Yeah, no, absolutely. Yeah. And I kind of say glom onto it just because as an adhd, it became a hyper fixation. And I'm like, I'm so interested in this and I'm interested in my own brain, and I'm interested in something that's a little bit more relevant for me. I had gone into schooling thinking I was going to work with eating disorders because I had healed my disordered eating. But like 10 years prior to. I had been an intuitive eating counselor for seven years. But I had kind of like, I was so distant from it in my own relationship with food. I felt so good about my relationship with food that it felt kind of like, I'll just do the thing because this is what I've been doing. But then once I got that diagnosis, I went, oh, this is really sparking my interest. And I'm really excited about it. So it's been great.

Katie Weber

Yeah, right. Same. I'm like, I always joke about the fact that I'm like, I've never been, like, this has been my longest hyper Focus. This is the longest I've done anything. Because it is. It's really fascinating, and it feels never ending. And I feel like, especially with this podcast and interviewing, like, I never get tired of talking about the puzzle that is our biopsychosocial makeup, especially as it relates to adhd. And like you said, how so many of us with this adult diagnosis feel like it is a relief. It's not pathological. It's not a disorder for a lot of us, I mean, it is and it's not. Which we will talk about. Okay, so then as you pivoted to sort of understanding more about yourself and understanding more, I'm assuming, about the clients you were drawn to. Right? Like eating disorder clients. You know, I felt like I worked with binge eating disorder coaching prior to my ADHD diagnosis. I always say, like, I wanted to go back and call them all and be like, guess what? We all have adhd.

Jennifer Free

Yeah.

Katie Weber

But, like, as you were piecing together a lot of your own lived experience through this ADHD lens, what did you start to learn about this idea of. Of dysregulation as, like, a state that all of us seem to exist in whether we want to or not?

Jennifer Free

So first, like you said, I did some ADHD trainings in addition, because my. My main schooling did not give me anything to do for ADHD years, so I did some courses on top of my degree, and they really showed me that people don't know what to do with ADHD years. Give them calendars, give them timers, give them tips and tricks and hacks, and as long as they're not drowning, send them on their way. That is the messaging I got from the training I got. And so that's what I did, because I didn't know any better. I had just gotten my diagnosis. I was new to the whole field, but I knew I was wanting to support people, so I started working that way. And of course, people would come back not having done anything we talked about, because to give homework to drowning people is insane. So I stopped doing that and started just really listening. What are you experiencing? What is going on? And what I found really start to come up and just hit me right in the face. Every single person I talk to, including myself, is in this frantic crash cycle. We're either on or we're off. We're stuck in the extremes. It's stressed, it's frantic, it's rushed, it's intense. Or I'm crashed out on the couch and I can't even decide what to eat. And there's no in between. So coming from my schooling, I had actually done my practicum in polyvagal work with postpartum women and everything. And I didn't really connect with it at the time. But then coming into this I was like, oh, so we're all in fight or flight. Okay, cool, we know that. What are we going to do about it? And I think the greatest gift I received in my journey is that I had not had a lot of. This is not the right word, it sounds offensive, but indoctrination of ADHD messaging yet. So I didn't have the here's how ADHD is, here's how it has to be. This is what we're all agreeing on now. Go from there. So I was pretty open minded because I hadn't had a lot of that messaging put into me yet. So I didn't believe that we had to be this way. I didn't believe that symptoms were inevitable. So I looked at it as like, okay, so how do we get out of this? Because there is a lot of dysregulation and regulation talk about adhd, but still when I talk about regulation, the most, not most common, but a very common response is yeah, but that's just how it is. ADHDers are dysregulated. It's inevitable. So what are you talking about, lady? But as someone who did not have that belief instilled in me when I started, I found ways to get out of it and I found that approach and I worked with my own brain and with clients brains of like, okay, so how do we get this system out of chronic fight or flight and into a regulated state in some sort of more consistent and concrete way? Not how do I like hit the whack a mole symptom as it comes up and just get by. But how do I actually heal this dysregulation? And so that's now what I help people do and have had profound in just huge differences in my own experience of life. I can't believe I have the same brain that I had five years ago because of this work. And it's really exciting.

Katie Weber

That's super interesting. And I often think about how much my life has changed since my ADHD diagnosis. And I mean there are a lot of things that certainly are chronic elements of adhd, especially when it comes to executive functioning. Like I'm just never gonna have, I'm never gonna like work on my memory, right? I just like a lot of the time I just have to accept the fact that I'm like I have poor working memory. I need to have reminders and alarms and timers and systems. Like, there are a lot of structures that I find are really helpful tools. But like you said, I also have found that like there's not some secret tool out there that's going to make every bit ADHDer's life better. And like there are, there's, you know, it's not going to fix us. And so a lot of the time it really is about like those supports. Those supports are out there for when you need them. But what we really have to do is work on slowing down. And you know, when you were talking about, I didn't know about your past with eating disorder work, are you familiar with Anita Johnson's metaphor of the log?

Jennifer Free

I don't know if I have that on the top of my head.

Katie Weber

She's an eating disorder recovery psychotherapist, but she always had this metaphor of the log that I work. I applied in my life a lot. I'll link to her YouTube video about it in the show notes. But she always talks about the log as like maladaptive coping skills when you're in, you know, you grab for something in the river when you are drowning and the log can be really, really helpful in that moment, right? It's a coping skill and so we hold onto it. But the goal is to get to the shore, right? And so it's like if you're constantly looking for things that are going to help you short term, you're ignoring kind of the real work to get to the shore. And I often talk about that with my ADHD clients just in terms of like the calendars, the apps, like all of those are logs, right? And they're going to be really short term help, but they're not going to like really get to the root of the issue, which is like, we are believing that we have to be super productive and that like our sense of self worth is wrapped up into how much we get done. And like, what's that about, right? Is that really ADHD or is that, you know, something else deeper or, you know, is it just living as a woman in a capitalist society and all of that stuff? So I was curious if you had heard about that because I feel like there's a lot of that in this, this sort of have faith, right? Like there, there is a way of this, like trust in the process that like once you become regulated, a lot of the things you were once struggling with are not, you know, they're not going to have as feel as much Weight, you're not going to be feeling like that whack a mole anymore. And like, then I get to that point where I think, like, do I still have adhd? Right? Like, is ADHD the whack a mole behaviors that I was dealing with that I don't deal with anymore? Or is the ADHD kind of the brain that is susceptible to overwhelm and dysregulation? And like, I don't know. That's. That's kind of what I often think about because there are lots of times where I'm like, I am nowhere near struggling like I used to be, but I also feel like I definitely still have adhd.

Jennifer Free

Exactly. Me too. And so that's what I see it as. What I'm experiencing now is, I think, inevitable, concrete adhd. Like, I have a brain that's different. I was born with it. There's nothing I can do about that and there's nothing I want to do about that at this point. I love my brain. It's what created this book. It's what created this philosophy. It's what connected the dots. It's what has me do the work I do and why I'm a creative person and I love it. And I did not feel that way when that brain was in fight or flight. So I think the biggest issue is with that current ADHD narrative. People are confusing fight or flight and adhd. They're putting it in a bundle and calling it adhd. So then people are believing, well, this is how hard it needs to be. This is normal. We see a lot of commiseration content online. Like, isn't it so hard? Ha ha, ha ha. So funny. But actually that's being in fight or flight. We can heal a lot of this struggle and what we believe is what we will do. So if you believe, like you said with your analogy, which. The log analogy, which is so great, and I've. I kind of naturally came upon that idea of. Yeah, it's like you're just keeping your head above water. Are you getting out of the river? So I think it's a very, like, innate feeling.

Katie Weber

I use a lot of water metaphors too. Right? Like riding the wave and all of that.

Jennifer Free

Yeah, I love that. So the belief. And this is kind of where regulation work starts in. In my book and in my work and in my philosophy, regulation is actually a lot of thought and belief work. People think it's all somatic and all body work. We have to also do that. Of course, you're running around like a chicken with Your head cut off, your system is not going to get out of fight or flight. But if you believe this is how hard it is, this is all I can do. Your brain is really smart. It is not going to put effort into doing something it doesn't believe is possible. So that is the work that I'm kind of like at the forefront or that's at the forefront of my messaging is hey, this is actually really possible. Great change is possible, Great healing is possible. I believe ADHDers can achieve anything they want. And there is the small thing that you did mention about the productivity which absolutely. If we are compulsively obsessed with productivity just to feel like we're enough is different, then I do believe we can achieve anything we want. I believe we can be ambitious. Being regulated is the most ambitious thing we can do. Like I have been so much more successful and so much more productive in a regulated state than I ever was in a frantic tizzy and then being a mess stuck on the couch for three days. So a lot of people think regulation means back off of doing what you want to do, sit down, have a cup of tea, have a rest, don't get as much done. I found it to be the absolute opposite, however. All of the ambition I have, all of my drive to do is purely excitement based and passion based, not fear based. Like, oh, if I don't do all of this, I'm going to be kicked out of the group. Which, you know, regulation work is very primal. So when we're feeling like we're not enough and that's why we're overly productive, that's going to lead us to burnout in a very difficult time. But when you tie regulation work in, you can absolutely still go after big audacious things. And that is really what I'm starting to see is a common misconception about regulation work.

Katie Weber

Yeah, and I love what you said about productivity too and that like that paradox that you kind of have to. It's a hard sell a lot of the time, especially when somebody is treading water, which is like if the desire is to be more productive, you will actually get more done when you slow down and take it one step at a time as opposed to the cycle of like, oh my God, so much to do. I'm overwhelmed. Now I'm in the fetal position, which is what I think a lot of us end up in, you know, and then I end up, I hear myself saying these cliches like if you want to get more done, do less. And I'm like, that Makes no sense to somebody. It makes sense to me now, but, like, it would have made no sense to me six years ago, you know, when I was struggling during lockdown and my kids were home and, you know, and the panic of lockdown, which was when I got my diagnosis. And, like, if somebody had said, if you want to get more done, do less, I would have probably punched him in the face.

Jennifer Free

Absolutely.

Katie Weber

But it really is true. Right. And I think that's the hard sell when somebody is in a state of overwhelm. So, like, when you are meeting with a client who is, like, in a state of dysregulation, I guess. Okay, two part question. My first part is, like, how does somebody know I'm dysregulated as opposed to, like, I'm just overwhelmed. Right. Or is there even a difference? Like, is there semantically a difference?

Jennifer Free

I would say overwhelm is a sign of dysregulation.

Katie Weber

Right. Okay.

Jennifer Free

And a lot of. Like I said, there's a lot of thought and belief work in the way that I approach regulation. And a lot of that's radical. Like, we have to think in a radical new way, because the way we've been thinking is not. Is putting us into dysregulation. So if we're overwhelmed, that means I'm perceiving a lot of things at once, which means I'm not present. If we are present. Because regulated means being grounded. I'm here in this physical moment in time, and I'm not, you know, well, what do I have to do later? And ba, ba, ba, ba. And I'm seeing it all looming in front of me in a brick wall that is us in mental dysregulation. So when we're regulated, the overwhelm goes down, the anxiety goes down. I'm much able to go, okay, here I am. Now what? Here I am. Maybe my work project is due tomorrow and I haven't started. Okay, well, here I am. Well, what now? Start it now. I guess, like, that's the only power I have versus I should have done this yesterday, and I can't believe I didn't do it. Why didn't I start sooner? And now I'm going to run around like chicken, my head cut off to get it done, and then I'm going to hand it in, and then I'm going to crash for three days, and then I'm going to be behind on the next thing. Around and round we go. So it's a huge shift to even believe. Oh, Overwhelm is a cognitive distortion. This is not reality. This is not true. And it's just a sign of a nervous system kind of being in hypervigilance and in a fearful mode. And that's what we want to work on is get your system into the reality. And this is making an assumption. I know not everyone's physically safe all the time that I am safe, it's okay. I can be safe to be present and just do that one next thing. So overwhelm would be kind of a red flag of dysregulation.

Katie Weber

Mm. I sold my car in Carvana last night.

Jennifer Free

Well, that's cool.

Commercial Narrator

No, you don't understand. It went perfectly. Real offer down to the penny. They're picking it up tomorrow. Nothing went wrong.

Katie Weber

So what's the problem?

Commercial Narrator

That is the problem. Nothing in my life goes to smoothly. I'm waiting for the catch.

Katie Weber

Maybe there's no catch.

Commercial Narrator

That's exactly what a catch would want me to think.

Katie Weber

Wow. You need to relax.

Commercial Narrator

I need a knock on wood. Do we have wood?

Katie Weber

Is this table wood? I think it's laminate.

Commercial Narrator

Okay. Yeah. That's good though. That's close enough.

Katie Weber

Car selling without a catch.

Jennifer Free

Sell your car today on Carvana.

Katie Weber

Pick up fees may apply.

Jennifer Free

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Katie Weber

Oh, I love my VRBO for the view.

Jennifer Free

Good reason.

Katie Weber

Ooh, and the sauna.

Jennifer Free

Sweet. Another good reason. And that it's one of those good

Katie Weber

saunas with the hot rock thing. Love a good hot rock thing. Fancy. That's also a reason.

Jennifer Free

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Katie Weber

I wanted to go back to what you were saying about like, the benefits of not being diagnosed until adulthood. Because I often think that with both my kids, my. Both of my teenagers were diagnosed after I was diagnosed. And so it's been really interesting to think about the difference. Like, you know, there are some ways in which I feel like I benefited from not knowing because I have a lot of grit. Right. And I do feel like there were a lot of ways in which I understood kind of organically. Like I was drawn to deep breathing and yoga and all of these things that are incredibly helpful. I just had no idea that that had anything to do with my nervous system. I was, you know, But a lot of the times I feel like there is that feeling of like, oh, I have adhd so I'm not going to do that thing. Right. Or I, you know, I'm just anxious, so I'm not going to do that thing. And I almost feel like I benefited in some ways from having to push myself. Although there's also ways in which I have obviously struggled from pushing myself. But it's like an interesting balance. There's a lot of nuance there in terms of, like, what we do with the diagnosis, in terms of helping ourself versus, like, am I supporting myself or am I limiting myself?

Jennifer Free

Exactly. And I think that's where that belief comes in, is like, what are you gonna. What path you gonna go down? Are we gonna go down that? Well, I have adhd, so sorry. I'm always going to be late and I just can't do that. And I'm not going to go for that promotion because that would be too overwhelming for me. And nope, there's that choice. And there, you know, we get told a lot of this, so I understand it's not a conscious choice a lot of the time. Or there is the path of, okay, that explains things. Now, what kind of life do I want? What are the things I want to work on so that I can have an amazing, full, rich life? And believing you can do that. Right? So it depends which side, because even in my groups is what is where I do this regulation work. Because groups in themselves are quite regulating. It's such an awesome experience. So, you know, there's a lot of acceptance work in regulation, but it's not acceptance as in, well, I'm late all the time, so guess that's just how I am. The acceptance is, okay, I currently am having an issue getting places on time. What am I. How am I going to work on that I can accept without feeling guilt and shame while also working to improve it? Because that's not something I like. And that's up to each individual if you're accepting of that or not. But it's a very different feeling than, well, I'm just going to use this as a reason why I can't improve and sit in this struggle. Acceptance is so cool, but acceptance does not mean complacency. And I think we can also get that mixed up of like, oh, if I accept myself, I can't grow or I can't change, because if I look at things I want to grow or change about me, I'm automatically going to feel guilt and shame. So I don't even want to look at it. So that is something I notice as well, is when I talk about Regulation work more publicly, obviously, if people are doing this work, they're pretty invested. But publicly, say on social media, I will get a comment like, well, we shouldn't feel bad about being dysregulated. We're always trying to get fix ourselves. I'm like, well, I never said you had to feel bad about it, but the motivators of dysregulation are guilt, shame, urgency, and fear. So, yes, if you're a dysregulated person, when I go, hey, you're probably dysregulated, and that's making things worse. We take offense to it. I feel guilt and shame. I don't want to look at it because it feels bad. So I just carry on my way being dysregulated. Whereas if we can have a more regulated approach to regulation work is realizing, oh, it is safe to observe what's going on with me without guilt or shame, and I can work on improving it so that I can have a better quality of life. This is really all for the individual, but I think a lot of times people think, like, healing and this type of work is a should or a have to, but it's always a choice, right?

Katie Weber

Yeah, it's the. It's the. Yes. And of acceptance and change. Yes. And actually, I feel like there was a lot of DBT influence in the book too. And, you know, it was funny because I have been just doing my internship with. On DB with dbt and really liking it, but always feeling like I couldn't quite access it and feeling like it was very neurodivergent, friendly. But also, like, a lot of the stuff as it was written just didn't make a lot of sense and I couldn't really apply it. And then I read Marsha Linehan's memoir, who Created dbt, And it was like, the sky's open. It was just this amazing. Her take on DBT just reminded me of how important it is to find, like, the version of what makes sense to you. I guess I can only liken it to, like, translations. Like, you know, a new translation of Anna Karenina comes out and everybody's, like, excited, and we're like, well, what's the big deal? Like, it's. We've had a million translations before, but it's like there is something about the way that you take concepts and weave them together and translate them in a way that feels really meaningful. And I feel like you've done that with just the way that you have brought together this notion of regulation specifically for an ADHD and I think also like a certain type of person with ADHD who is in that struggle of sort of like, I want to change, but I haven't spent a lot of time on the acceptance part. And like change has to have acceptance in order for it to be meaningful and sustainable. Like you were saying too, right? Like it's not about. I was thinking when you were talking earlier about like this notion of am I operating within my capacity as opposed to am I limiting myself? Right? So like, am I saying no to something because it feels scary and I want to avoid. Avoid it? Or am I saying no to something because I have a lot on my plate right now, but like always having to kind of ask why is that no there?

Jennifer Free

And our current capacity is not necessarily our future capacity. That is what I have found with regulation work. Like one of my favorite quotes from my dysregulated ADHD days before I had my diagnosis was, and it's in the book, asking my college roommate, do you ever not want to take your socks off at night and you have to put them back on in the morning? Like, isn't that overwhelming? Like, I was, my capacity was very low. Like I could do a few classes in university that would take all of my bandwidth, all of my capacity. So getting dressed. I wore a lot of sweatpants in university. I would put like my workout clothes on in the morning because I knew I'd be going to the gym that day and I didn't want to have to get changed twice. Like that to me was like, I know I didn't shower enough those days. Sorry to everybody during those times. But like just my capacity was so low and had I say, gotten a diagnosis at that time and been told, which I think people are being told this too much, that's just adhd. So this is your capacity function within it. I would have been so stuck because I now like have a business that I run. I have two kids, two young boys, I have a home, I just have a book out. I'm writing my second book. My capacity has gone from like a kid's like sand bucket to like a huge bathtub. Not out of force, not out of white knuckling it, not out of shoulds, simply out of growing my capacity by getting out of fight or flight. Because when we're in fight or flight, as, as you know, that takes so much of our energy. So half my capacity is going to just existing in this hyper vigilant state. So what I have left over to actually live with is very little. The more regulated I've gotten is like, I'm patching up all the holes in my energy bucket, and I'm like, I have so much more capacity, and it just seems to grow and grow and grow. It's like, crazy. But like you said, we have to. We are still human beings. And sometimes this. This past week, I canceled an acting class I was going to start in a few weeks because I'm like, okay, we're going a little off the deep end here. There's too much happening. So it's always that give and take. But at my biggest struggle, my capacity was so small, and that was not my innate capacity. So for anyone listening right now is thinking, well, my capacity is so low. I'm just getting by. I can't work any harder. Your capacity can grow in a really gentle and opening way with the regulation work. Yeah.

Katie Weber

That kind of reminds me of, like, masking and unmasking and, you know, one of the questions I used to ask myself a lot before I was diagnosed, which was like, how am I so exhausted all the time? I don't feel like I'm doing anything. And. And it's. I think it's, you know, a question that a lot of people with ADHD think about, which is like, I feel like my. My narrative about myself is somebody who is lazy and can't get things started. And yet I am also weirdly exhausted all the time and kind of having to think about, like, what is it that is exhausting me? Is it that masking? Is it the performance? Is that the anxiety? Like, trying to figure out what exhausts me? But as you were talking, I was like, I actually don't often think that way now, as, you know, thinking about, like, evidence for when I'm regulated versus when I'm dysregulated. I feel like if we're going to look for, like, what are some things in our life that are showing us that we're working in, like, from day to day, not just white knuckling it, but from day to day, making sure that we are working in that regulated state. Feel like that's. That's one of them.

Jennifer Free

Yeah, I love that. And what I love about regulation work is I think it simplifies our experience in a way that makes sense to people. So I do have a podcast, and the first episode is all about just this philosophy overall. And I get so many messages of, like, oh, my God, this makes so much more sense than other things I've been trying to learn. Because, like you just said, is it the masking? Is it the anxiety? Is it the, you know, guilt and the shame? Is it that? What is it that's exhausting me? Well, the root of all of that is being a fight or flight. Right. Masking symptom of fight or flight anxiety. That's a part of dysregulation. Guilt and shame. Motivators of dysregulation. Freeze. Right. Paralysis. That just because we're not moving doesn't mean that's not exhausting. Right. Fight, flight, freeze. Fawn. It all comes down to one root. And that to me makes so much more sense than we have. These 50 different problems, they're all intertwined. It's like. Yeah, but you can connect the dots to almost every symptom of ADHD to be affected by dysregulation. And then it gives us one thing to work on and I find that a lot less overwhelming than. So let's try to fix these seemingly disconnected 25 issues we have.

Katie Weber

Right. Yeah. It's interesting because a lot of the time I think fight or flight, Fawn, Freeze. Are talked about in relation to trauma. They're trauma symptoms. This is related to trauma and complex trauma. And I think when we start to talk about ADHD and trauma and there are a few Gabor mates, the only one who really even wants to touch that with a ten foot pole. But not a lot of clinicians or ADHD researchers are talking about like how ADHD and trauma and complex trauma kind of intertwine and you know, and, and just like off the top of my head I think about like, what it's like to grow up with ADHD and all of the negative messages we hear and all of the ways in which we are playing catch up and trying and masking. Right. And so like the evidence of complex trauma is everywhere, but I also feel like there isn't a lot of research out there. So I'm just curious, like, how do you connect ADHD and like PTSD or cptsd, do they connect in your minds when you're thinking about fight or flight?

Jennifer Free

Yeah, absolutely. But I also think it's less. I think people want like, what are all my letters and what are all my diagnoses? And I need to understand it all to be or in order to do this work. I just know every single lady each year and I've worked with probably over 1500 people, like in depth at this point. Every single person I talk to is in fight or flight. So we know there's a correlation there. And I don't think it's. The brain is just more susceptible I believe if you are a neurodivergent person living in a neurotypical world, you just have had enough friction points and it doesn't have to be big. I never identified with trauma, you know, especially capital T trauma. Like, I had a really gentle, beautiful upbringing. I was never pressured, but I was different. And I knew that. And even if other people didn't know that, I think just that little bit of friction of being different will put our system in hyper vigilant mode, protection mode. Oh my gosh, what if I get kicked out of the group? What if I, you know, fall behind all of this stuff that triggers that primal part of us? And I've been in fight or flight probably since a very young age. This is why I had my disordered eating. I was flinging from restriction to binging, like you mentioned, for 10 years until I was able to heal that. But that dysregulation is there for every single ADHDer. And like you said, the current studies, the current research is assuming the ADHD brain or what they're looking at is just adhd. But if every single ADHDER is in fight or flight, you can't ignore that. You try to separate the two. And of course, the really, the only way to do that would be how do we get ADHD years out of fight or flight and then study that brain in comparison to an ADHD brain in fight or flight to really know what ADHD is at the core. And so I think it's difficult and frustrating that regulation is not the first conversation when it comes to diagnosis. That is my goal at some point when people are diagnosed, okay, let's get you out of fight or flight first. Then let's look at other tools and strategies. But they go straight to, you know, here's a timer, here's a calendar, here's a pill. Write it down. Yeah, here's a pill. Which I'm not, I'm not pro or con about, right? I've never been on the medication because I luckily did stumble into the regulation work quite quickly after my diagnosis and just did that work and found it so profound that I, even though I was drowning when I first got my diagnosis, I really didn't feel I needed it. But medication can obviously be something that can support people to do the regulation work if they feel they can't do it in the state they're in. But as I do the regulation work with people, people come to me and go, could the meds be dysregulating me? I'm like, well, it is a stimulant. And if you're already in this frantic intent state and you take a stimulant, that's going to dysregulate you further. Is it going to have you be productive and running around like chicken with your head cut off? Probably. And that's going to feel good when the alternative is being frozen. But as you get more stability in the regulation work, some people do find they maybe need a lesser dose or could do without. But of course, everyone can talk to their doctor about that. But it's really cool work and I do think it is still in the beginnings of really understanding it with ADHD brain.

Katie Weber

Yeah, no, I think that's really well said. And I think oftentimes my issue with ADHD medication is not the medication itself, because you're right, I find it incredibly helpful. But I think the way it is talked about, especially like, you know, here's your diagnosis, here's your medication. Good luck, right? As. And so it's talked about as this cure all, like blood pressure medication, you know, it's talked about like, this is the, this is the key to inexhaustible productivity. Right? And so like, we don't ever have to think about being exhausted ever again because now you've got this pill and it's like, you know, nobody talks about what it's like to live within your capacity and what it means to have cyclical energy and what it means to like, need to recharge. Right. And all of the ways in which our lifestyle really needs to support. But it's like to have this kind of. Was it like a Corvette brain with bicycle brakes or something? I'm trying to think of what Ned Hallowell calls it, but yeah, which I

Jennifer Free

think I'm a little bit on the fringes, but like, I think that's dysregulation. Corvette motor with bicycle brakes. That's what dysregulation is out of control. What I have found with regulation is we can find balance, we can find more control, we can find more consistency. And my, my sound for regulation is do, do, do, do, do. So like, if you're do, do, do, do do, you don't have no Corvette motor with bicycle brakes. You're just cruising in a nice pace down the road, no risk of like crashing. You're not going a million miles an hour. You're just going at a nice pace that you can sustain. That is absolutely possible. And that eradicates this idea of Corvette motor with bicycle brakes. So I think, I think we're Starting to like pick apart just in recent years. They're like, well, wait, is that ADHD inherently or is that the ADHD that we've come to know which is that person in fight or flight?

Katie Weber

Yeah, good point. I wanted to go back to differentiating between internal regulation and external regulation. So what exactly are, what are the two of those?

Jennifer Free

True regulation to me is internal regulation, meaning I'm good, I can carry this body anywhere I go and as long as I'm not in imminent life threatening danger, I'm okay. External regulation would be pretty much everything else we do. So there's of course supports we could have in place. Like if you book meetings back to back to back and you really feel like there's no possibility of slowing down, you have to rush. Yeah, that's not going to support your regulations. So booking things in a more reasonable pace, those are positive external regulators. They're going to help me. But if we are not healing dysregulation, which is the internal work, like not rushing all the mental work I've discussed, there's some behavior stuff we can look at. If I'm not doing that work and I'm doing it externally, I'm actually soothing the dysregulation, not healing the dysregulation. And if we're soothing dysregulation, we're fueling dysregulation. So an example being, oh, well, I can't focus unless the house is clean. So then I always end up cleaning the house and not doing the important work that is you soothing your dysregulation because you're like, oh, I feel dysregulated. It must be this mess. Let me clean up the mess that soothed my dysregulation. Well, now you've trained your system, I need a clean place, I need a clean atmosphere in order to focus. Those are two irrelevant things. But we've connected them and I soothe my dysregulation by cleaning. And now I can't make another choice, it becomes compulsive. And so other compulsive behaviors we see as external regulation, these are obviously, no one's doing these on purpose, but scrolling spending, substance use avoidance, we can regulate through avoidance. Simply don't do the thing and you're going to be less dysregulated. But obviously we're not looking to do that. And then we're not doing that on purpose, but we just really want to be aware of what we're doing and how it's soothing the dysregulation. And that is not the same as healing the dysregulation. But I think you're trying to get more to like, helpful external tools. But I think we can, like you said the log versus getting out of the river. External regulation can often be logs and the internal regulation work is more like getting out of the river. So it's, it's tricky to get too much into the external without it being the focus. Because I also do find if I ever say anything about like an external tip or trick or tool, people will really go, oh, yeah, I like that. But if I ever talk about internal work, people will kind of shoo, shoo it away or brush by it because people really love the external more than the internal. Because I'll even talk about, say, regulation in some way. And then people in the comments, this is more social media, this is what you get. But be like, oh, I love this app. I'm like, girl, I'm not talking about an app. Like, we want the external, it feels safer. The internal work is more ambiguous. It's a little bit more challenging. So I think we really can rely on the external a little too heavily.

Katie Weber

Yeah, absolutely. And I think like you said earlier, like we were talking about earlier, like, it's worked into a lot of the treatment of adhd, which is like, find yourself the apps and the, and the pomodoro timers and the calendars and then you're on your way without really thinking about like the messaging that you've grown up with or like, who says that? You know that's one of my favorite, like interrupters, right? Which is like, why, Whose voice are you hearing when you say that you have to do something? I think that message is probably the hardest, the hardest sell for that message is probably the women you work with, which are, I'm assuming, which are like moms who own a business or work and are just like, there is no time in the day for me. And if I try to be in the present moment, all I'm thinking about is everything that's not getting done. And it just that like constant cycle of catch up that I feel like I was certainly in when my kids were younger and totally.

Jennifer Free

And that's where that belief comes to like obliterate and smash that to pieces. Because so in the work that we do, we look at those beliefs I'm behind, I need to catch up is like, what is that belief doing for you? How is that dysregulating you? What are the results of that belief? Because I know for me, when I believed I'm behind a need to catch up, which I would say has come to be the number one belief I get from ADHDers. I would be so overwhelmed by perceiving all the things I needed to do to, quote, unquote, catch up, which is an idea. That's a concept. It's not a real thing. I'd be so overwhelmed that I'd watch TV all day. Well, that's not helping me get caught up. If I want to get caught up, it would dysregulate my nervous system further. Because you're fighting with reality. You're saying, I should be over there, but you're over here. But I should be further along. But here you are. But I should have done xyz. Okay, we're never going to slow down. We're never going to get regulated if we believe those things. So that is where we really look at challenging the beliefs, challenging the way we're thinking. Because the. The tools of regulation, like, okay, slow down when you're rushing. That's not the regulation work. The regulation is when you do that. What. Why is it so uncomfortable? Why are you having such a hard time slowing down? What's that about? There's probably thoughts and beliefs that are coming up. There's a lot in your subconscious that is keeping you thinking that it's unsafe to slow down. And that's where we do the work. So I think people get a little bit confused and, like, simplify it. Like, oh, slow down. Yeah, I've heard that before. It didn't work for me. Yeah, I know. Because you probably didn't go the 10 steps deeper that you need to go, which is. Why is this so uncomfortable for me. What are the beliefs that are coming up? What is the dysregulation about slowing down? Like, we gotta dig in there. You can't just think, oh, if I slow down more, everything's gonna be solved. Because if you're trying to slow down while simultaneously believing, I'm behind, I need to catch up, you're stagnant. That's just an internal tug works. You're physically trying to slow down. And I'm a smart person. If I believe I'm behind and need to catch up, I'm not slowing down. I'm running as fast as I possibly can. So I have a belief that's going this way, a practice that's trying to send me the other way. And now I'm just in this internal tug of war. And you're never going to get anywhere. So this is why the belief Work is so, so vital because if you sustain those beliefs and don't question them and don't start breaking them down, can't head where you want to head. We got to get everything aligned, like the physical, the thoughts and the beliefs and the behavior all heading towards. Towards a more regulated, balanced place. So you can get out of this primal state where your animal self is running the show and get that conscious mind back kind of in its power and in the driver's seat. Yeah.

Katie Weber

Now you had said earlier that groups are really regulating. I know. You do do the regulation group. Tell me more about that.

Jennifer Free

Absolutely. So that is something people are typically skeptical of. They're like, do you do one on one? I'm like, no, I'm not taking any more one on one. Get in the group. You're going to love it. And then after everyone's like, oh my God. The group was the part like hearing other people going, oh, it's not just me. I'm actually normal in a way. At least normal for an adhder. But everyone in the group is all here with a really like, hopeful attitude. We're positive, we're taking on the work. Of course, I encourage everyone to share their resistance. So there's going to be gra. A lot of grappling. Like, ah, but this is how I'm feeling. This is the belief coming up. But we're not here commiserating. So it's a very positive feeling. So there's connection, there's identification. There's not feeling alone. A lot of bodies. It's did. It's online, but it's still a lot of bodies in a room together. Really. It's like, oh, I'm safe, I'm okay. So just being in the group is really nice. Of course, one on one. Yeah. You dive into more in your specific situation, but it's just you and someone who is kind of teaching or guiding you, but you're still alone in a way. So I love the group because it's like everyone's coming at it from the same level to the same goal and we're in this together. Which, which soothes that kind of primal, tribal part of us that wants to be a part of a group. And it's a really. It's awesome. It's so fun.

Katie Weber

Totally. And I think too like the validation piece. Right. Which is so central to self acceptance, which is, I'm not alone. Other people experience this. I'm not, you know, it doesn't mean I'm not normal or there's something wrong with Me. And I feel like that's such an integr piece to then change. Right. Acceptance, then change. And there has been a lot of research to suggest that, like, you know, chronic pain, invisible illnesses, like, the number one treatment is group work because of that validation piece. And that piece, like, somebody understands me and somebody hears me and I'm not alone, is, like, the number one place to begin. Change. Right. And it's not just, like you said, commiserating. And I find that. I don't know, I just find that so powerful.

Jennifer Free

It's so cool, and it's fun. It's like, you get to know people. There's a bit of, you know, lightheartedness involved when you get comfortable with people. We could laugh about, like, our struggles with. With the knowing that we're here to make it better. Right. Because I think there is a fine line between commiseration and, like, isn't it so hard? Okay, bye.

Katie Weber

Or just venting, right? Yeah.

Jennifer Free

Yes, Venting. You're not getting anywhere. We're almost feeling worse after than before versus, like, oh, it is hard. But we're all here to make improvements. We're all here to find relief. And we're all here in kind of like a. In a hopeful, positive way. I think that builds us up and has us go, oh, it's okay that I'm struggling with this. Here's what we're doing, and work on it. I think that sweet spot is so powerful.

Katie Weber

Yeah. Yeah. When you were talking about the brick wall, you reminded me of the visuals in your book. Because I have to say, I've read a lot of ADHD books, and there are a lot of ADHD books that are like, we're ADHD friendly. See all the bullet points and the look, this part's in a box. And you're like, it's still a wall of gray text. And I just. Your book is one of the prettiest ADHD books I have come across. It really is. But also, it just feels, like, rich. I don't know. There's just, like, a really rich, like, interplay between the visual and the words in a way that I was like, this is what we're talking about when we talk about ADHD friendly, which is, like. I think it's also sort of friendly to neurodivergent brains in terms of dyslexia and dyspraxia and, like, all of the ways in which we approach things differently visually and just the way in which it needs to be explained. Right. Like I was saying before, like, your translation of what is kind of a soup of a lot of different, like, polyvagal, dbt, somatic experiencing. Like all of this kind of brought together in a way that really resonates with our experience. So thank you for that. That's really just lovely. And it's just a pretty, pretty book. Were you involved in the illustration aspect of it?

Jennifer Free

I didn't do the drawings, but everything in the book is my creation is my creative lead, and it all stems from my program. So it is just pretty much a textbook for the group work that I do. But what's kind of been a little bit of my ADHD superpower, Even when I did intuitive eating work, I naturally think in like, the most simple of terms. I don't want any bullshit, I don't want any fluff. I don't want any, like, I'm. I was not good at even school to become a therapist because I'm like, okay, so like, explain that buzzword to me that means nothing. Like, I want the plain language. So even in intuitive eating, I, you know, I had quite a big following. And even though I'm teaching the same thing as other people, but I do naturally simplify it, get straight to the source. I could explain it to a five year old. And they do say, you really understand something when you can explain it in the most simple terms. And so this book is the same. Like, I explain regulation work in the most basic of language because I don't want to use one word that someone has to go, what does that mean? Because I don't think that way. So I think that having an ADHD brain, writing an ADHD book is helpful in that way because that's how I think a lot of us function.

Katie Weber

Yeah, you're just reminding me of, like, the people who take a very literal approach to no self disclosure with clients where I'm like, I don't know how to relate to people without self disclosure. Like, I'm like, I have to like, it's how I empathize. It's how I validate. I'm not like, what's the phrase? Like, you show your scars, not your gaping wounds or something. But I was like, right, Totally right. But the ways in which there are some things in especially in counseling where it's like, oh, yeah, no, that is not how I operate at all. And I have no idea why this is your. This is being taught this way and really having to like, dig deep into, like, what are my intuitive ways in which everybody is zigging and I need to zag versus you Know, wanting to still stay within, you know, the field and stay ethical.

Jennifer Free

Well, even when people say, like, oh, a therapist shouldn't disclose their own diagnosis is like, look, as an ADHDer, I am never working with anyone in my ADHD that doesn't also have it. Personally, I want to find a therapist with ADHD if I have ADHD so well.

Katie Weber

And you also want to model what it's like to live without the shame. Right. And to, like, you know, to have addressed this stuff. Like, I think lived experience is so important. I don't think it's all you need, but I also think, like, it's an opportunity to model what it looks like to be where they want to be. Right.

Jennifer Free

Yeah.

Katie Weber

Or where they're aiming toward.

Jennifer Free

Yeah.

Katie Weber

Well, this has been fantastic. Thank you so much for your time. It's really great. I can't wait for this book to get out. And I'm excited that you're working on a second one. Are you ready to talk a little bit about what that is?

Jennifer Free

Yes. It is not for neurodivergence in particular, but it does lend towards more. This idea of, like, regulation is the most ambitious thing you can do. So it's really looking more like, at work or with business. How can you use regulation to increase your capacity to function better, to have more enjoyment of your personal life at the same time and really battling through this stereotype that regulation is like, take a break, don't be as ambitious. Just be calm and quiet. That's not what it's about because I have had 10 times more success as a regulated person than I ever did when I was frantic and rushing around. But it's a huge barrier for people, so that is more of the focus.

Katie Weber

That's amazing. Awesome. And. And are you going to still doing your regulation groups?

Jennifer Free

Oh, yes, absolutely. The next rounds start on May 11, and every quarter I open a new one.

Katie Weber

Awesome. So that's at ADHD with Jennifer.com, right?

Jennifer Free

Yes. Or you can come to. Yeah, Jennifer.com. i also have a podcast, ADHD with Jennifer.

Katie Weber

And yeah, I'll have your Instagram and Tick Tock and all of that. You have quite a presence online, so that's gonna be fun. I don't. That's another one where I'm like, I don't know how to stay regulated and have a social media. Yeah. So that's a work in progress. Well, thank you so much. This has been really wonderful and love the work you're doing. So keep it up. And, yeah. Very excited to see what comes next.

Jennifer Free

Thank you so much.

Katie Weber

There you have it. Thank you for listening and I really hope you enjoyed this episode of the Women and ADHD Podcast. If you'd like to find out what more about me and my coaching programs, head over to womeninadhd.com if you're a woman who was diagnosed with ADHD and you'd like to apply to be a guest on this podcast, visit womeninadhd.com podcastguest and you can find that link in the episode Show Notes. Also, you know we ADHDers crave feedback and I would really appreciate hearing from you, the listener. Please take a moment to leave me a review on Apple Podcasts or Audible and if that feels like too much and I totally get it, please just take a few seconds right now to give me a five star rating or share this episode on your own social media to help reach more women who maybe have yet to discover and lean into this gift of neurodivergency. And they may be struggling and they don't even know why. I'll see you next time when I interview another amazing woman who discovered she's not lazy or crazy or broken. But she has ADHD and she's now on the path to understanding her neurodivergent mind and finally using this gift to her advantage. Take care till then. Can you believe it?

Jennifer Free

The business I'd been about to start lived in my head for two years.

Katie Weber

But last night I finally bought the domain on Wix.

Jennifer Free

Took me 90 seconds and suddenly it was real.

Katie Weber

I even used Wix Harmony, wix's AI website builder, to create a full website in minutes. Didn't even have to stress about security,

Jennifer Free

privacy, or any of that technical stuff.

Katie Weber

It all came included. That's two years of stalling. One night of progress.

Jennifer Free

Don't wait like I did.

Katie Weber

Go to wix.com domains Most people don't

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