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Tori Berry

If we're trying to fit ourselves into the textbook, we're going to miss a step and it's going to feel like once again we have failed when really we can adjust those steps to meet our own needs. That's the reality of adhd.

Katie Weber

Hello and welcome to the Women and ADHD Podcast. I'm your host Katie Weber. I was diagnosed with ADHD at the age of 4:45 and it completely turned my world upside down.

Podcast Host/Interviewer

I've been looking back at so much

Katie Weber

of my life, school, jobs, my relationships,

Podcast Host/Interviewer

all of it with this new lens

Katie Weber

and it has been nothing short of overwhelming. I quickly discovered I was not the only woman to have this experience and now I interview other women who, like me, discovered in adulthood they have ADHD and are finally feeling like they understand who they are and how to best live lean into their strengths, both professionally and personally.

Podcast Host/Interviewer

Hello and welcome back.

Katie Weber

Here we are at episode 211 in which I interview Tori Berry and Shel Morny. Now today's episode combines two of my favorite topics, ADHD Coaching and Dialectical Behavioral Therapy. DBT Tori and Shell are a mother daughter duo from Southern California who who have created something really special in the neurodivergence support space. Tori is an ADHD coach and the founder of ADHD Works. Now. She also happens to be one of the amazing team of coaches we have at Women and adhd. Now, Tori was diagnosed with both ADHD and then autism in adulthood and she has channeled her own lived experience into helping other neurodivergent adults through one on one coaching and specially adapted DBT groups. Shel is a licensed clinical social worker with over 35 years of experience and she is also Tori's mother and business partner who brings the clinical perspective to their work. Together. The three of us talk about Tori's adult diagnoses and how Shell missed the ADHD and autism in Tori's childhood despite her own clinical training. We also talk about the fundamentals of DBT and how the focus on validation, acceptance and practical skill development makes it particularly powerful for neurodivergent clients have spent years asking the question what is wrong with me? And Tori and Shell share about their collaborative group approach and how they are making DBT skills applicable to the neurodivergent experience. Tori and Shell's DBT groups fill up quickly. I've heard the June cohort is already full, but there is a link in the show notes where you can Sign up for the next cohort wait list. Okay, without further ado, here is my interview with Tori and Shell.

Podcast Host/Interviewer

Well, welcome, Tori and Shell. I am so excited to have you on the podcast today. Thank you so much for being here.

Tori Berry

Yeah. Thank you for having us. Yeah.

Shel Morny

Thank you. This is exciting.

Podcast Host/Interviewer

Okay. I know, right? Okay, so let's start out. Tori, I want to ask you about your adult diagnosis. You were diagnosed with both autism and adhd. So I want to hear from you kind of when that happened. What were some of the signs that you noticed where you thought, I should probably look into this? Were they simultaneous diagnoses, or did one happen first? I want to hear all the things, so why don't you start?

Tori Berry

I was born January 13th.

Podcast Host/Interviewer

It was a rainy day.

Tori Berry

Yes. Yeah. So my diagnosis was ADHD first. And that's kind of what got me looking into all of the neurodivergent traits and tendencies. But I was just really struggling in life in general. A lot of the struggles that I had were definitely in school and in college. I was the type that would zone out. I would find, like, a little, like, pile of pieces of, like, cuticles on my desk by the end of the end of the class because I just couldn't sit still. And so I would go through systematically and perfecting, you know, my, like, bare nails or picking off all of my nail polish if I had it on. So those are, like, some of those kind of signs earlier on. And then, you know, one of the big ones, too, with school was I would copy math problems down wrong. So I would think that I was doing really well. I was like, I remember this formula. I've studied really hard for this. This is awesome. Then I would go, and I would turn in my test, and I would get it back, and I would get, like, a D. And I was, like, shocked. And when I looked over my work, it was because I did the entire problem right. But I switched, like, a one and a two. And so instead of, like, two 13, it would be three. One, two. And it was honestly, like, devastating because I would work so hard, and then for such a, you know, quote, unquote stupid mistake, I would get everything wrong. And it kind of shattered my confidence. So as a student, you know, I didn't think I was a good student, Was a very talented athlete. I guess not. Was still an athlete, but that's really got me through and got me into college. I was a field hockey player, went to school in the east coast, and that's when the personality kind of problems also started to come into play. I had a really hard time with friendships, with the team dynamic. I was told a lot that I cared more about my sport than I did about my teammates, and that was true because my sport was my special interest. I should have played tennis. So it was painful. Yeah, it was definitely painful. And after I graduated, I was just trying to make sense of everything and why I was, you know, chronically misinterpreted and seen as someone that I wasn't and, you know, feeling like I was failing in life. So that's when, you know, we explored a lot of what was going on with my mental health and ended up having a solid psychiatrist and a therapist who really helped me through the diagnosis and the medications and also getting me into DBT group, which is a passion project for me, for sure.

Podcast Host/Interviewer

Oh, that's amazing. Okay, so now, when you said we started looking into it, was that you and Shel?

Tori Berry

Yes. Yeah.

Shel Morny

Yes. Can I chime in on the background a little bit? So I'm Shel. I'm Tori's mom. We are business partners and very close in our relationship as well. And I am an lcsw. I want to say that I missed Tori's diagnosis completely. And I think it's a really important thing to say and own and confess, if you will, because I was trained in the early. Well, late 80s, early 90s, and we really knew nothing about ADHD, and we knew nothing about what we now call level one autism or ADHD combo. And so the traits, as typical in girls didn't really start to emerge or really become problematic until, really, puberty, I would say. I thought Tori was a very shy child. She was kind of a leg clinger. But she did have a lot of personality, and she was cute, and she was talented, and so it. It just. What can I say? I missed it in high school when the mood dysregulation became more and more prominent. We thought it was a mood disorder, and we started treating, you know, accordingly. With mood, it can be really tough to distinguish between normal pubescence and adolescence from female adhd. The big difference is you don't outgrow it. So the problems just continued where other girls were starting to get their act together and manage their friendships and manage their moods and their hormones and things like that. Tori was not. But it really took me till she was in her early 20s to just have, like, the ding, ding, ding. This is more. This is more than adolescence. This is more than a mood disorder. So I don't know if that's helpful, but I hope it's helpful for someone out there.

Podcast Host/Interviewer

Absolutely. I mean, one of the things we talk about on the podcast is, like, looking back over the course of your life through this new lens, what are some of those things that pop up where you realize, like, oh, the signs were there all along. We just didn't know what to look for. And so I'm just, like, so excited to get the mother daughter perspective at the same time, you know, I was 45 when I was diagnosed, and my mother had already passed away. So, like, she was the one person I most wanted to talk about, you know, going over because she was also frustrated for me and saw so many of those moments throughout high school and university where she was like, you know, we. We couldn't really connect the dots in a way, you know, and I ended up with mood disorder diagnoses instead as well. In addition, who knows, you know, but, like, there's so much of that mystery that looking back, it's not like, you know, like, it's not like you specifically failed to see the signs. We all did. Right. And so what does that. What can we learn from that? But, Tori, I didn't know you used DBT as well. We're going to talk about that more later. So what led you to then go from your own diagnosis to then becoming an ADHD coach?

Tori Berry

Oh, my gosh. Well, you know, the thing that pops into my head before I even jump into that is I remember my mom saying, I don't know why life is so hard for you. And it was not like, you know, I don't know why life is so hard for you. Get it together. It was. It pained her so much that life was so hard for me, and she couldn't understand and didn't necessarily know how to help me or how I could help myself. And it, you know, it broke her heart. It broke both of our collective hearts. And I, you know, I totally forgotten that she had said that a long time ago. And so how did that, you know, lead to my ADHD coaching? Well, she tried to help me make my life a little bit easier, and I rebelled against that a lot. Um, I worked in restaurants for a long time after I graduated from college because that's what you do with a sociology degree, right? Is wait tables. Made a lot of sense. So I. Yeah, that's what I did. Ran myself into the ground. And, you know, I had my mom over my shoulder constantly kind of being like, just let me guide your life. Let me make the path for you. And I wanted to do it myself. And then I had Some pretty gnarly experiences, some pretty nasty relationships, and really got to a very low place and was working through some things in therapy. My therapist basically told me, I can't have you crying for the entire session. So she wrote me a contract and said she wouldn't be my therapist unless I went to DBT group and I had to attend, and I couldn't miss sessions and things like that. And so I had, like, these supports that were, you know, kind of facilitating that growth. And. And as I got through, like, my second round of dbt, kind of graduated from the arms of that therapist, so to speak, I looked back at the just pain that I had experienced and the constant feeling of, like, what's wrong with me? Why am I constantly, like, seen as something that I'm not? Why do I try so hard? And I'm always, you know, quote unquote wrong? And as I had worked through that myself, I just thought, other people do not deserve to go through this for this long. You can't dictate someone else's journey. And I've learned since that, you know, I can't expedite that journey either for others. But there's something very special about having someone like Xiao, you know, my mom beside you patiently, just there, willing to support you to read your text essays to encourage you to use your DBT skills. It's this, like, gentle but also tough love that really, you know, facilitated my growth. And so when I was, like, I don't know, five years into the service industry, I said, okay, plan my life. I give up. Like, you know, and so we started looking into grad schools because I had, you know, gone to school to be a therapist. And in, you know, exploring the programs, we kind of collectively realized that I'm not meant to be a therapist. I'm nice and I am empathetic to a degree, but I really want to do something about it instead of just talking about it. And luckily, Shell was working at Kaiser at the time, and there's this emerging field of coaching that they were looking into, and she was like, you know, this could be your niche. Maybe this is where you want to go. And with the ADHD focus specifically, let's try. It wasn't going to take me too long. I could always reroute and go to grad school. And so that's when I switched. I started working at Jenny Craig to get my coaching hours. I got into a coaching program with the IAC center, and the rest is kind of history.

Shel Morny

Can I. Can I tell you the mom perspective?

Podcast Host/Interviewer

Yeah.

Shel Morny

Okay. So I love all of that. I think that's all super accurate. And what's kind of interesting about Tori and I, whenever we talk about her life, sometimes we argue because I'll be like, no, it was like this. And she'll say, no, it's like this. Because obviously, we have very different perceptions, you know, of the reality. And for each of us, our perception is. Is the reality. But in this regard, I. I'm not, you know, going to argue anything Tori said. But just to add, too, that Tori was always a great coach. She coached field hockey. She worked for Jenny Craig for a while, coaching people in health and wellness and diet, you know, lifestyle, which, of course, we. We have different feelings about that now, but, you know, life is a journey, and you grow along the way. But once we recognized that she had adhd, I thought, you know, this girl really needs to understand her adhd, and she's really floundering in her adult life. And what I thought was, you know, what if she takes this course in becoming an ADHD coach, what's the worst that could happen? She will learn so much about ADHD that it is bound to help her, even if nothing else comes of it. And because she was sort of floundering, she was like, okay, fine, I'll do it. And it really did open so many doors, not the least of which is her own understanding of herself and my improved understanding of her. And it was after that that we began to build the coaching business together, which now is just. It's been years, and we're really, really enjoying it. But to me, that was the driver. It was like, let's understand this whether or not she ever actually becomes a coach,

Podcast Host/Interviewer

right? Yeah. And I think that's a good segue into talking a little bit more about dbt, specifically with a neurodivergent lens. Right? Because even just hearing Tori talk about. And so many of the people on my podcast, including myself, have often talked about this question of what's wrong with me, right? And this notion that I am the problem and this, like, internalized invalidation that doesn't come out of nowhere. I mean, it comes from invalidation in life. But, you know, this. This notion that, like, we start everything prior to our diagnosis from this lens of this idea that there's something wrong with me that has to be fixed. And one of the things I love about DBT is that it gets to the heart of validation and acceptance is key, and what are the skills that we need to live a better life? So I guess Shell, I'm Going to ask you, give us a little primer for anybody who's listening who has absolutely no idea what DBT is. If there's a quick way we could explain what is dialectical behavioral therapy? What is dialectics? And how does that kind of apply to a neurodivergent way of thinking?

Shel Morny

Yeah, yeah. Dialectical behavioral therapy essentially is a cognitive behavior therapy. I mean, it came out of cognitive behavior therapy developed by Marshall Linehan in the 1970s, specifically to address what we call borderline personality disorder, which is a disorder of dysregulation. And we now know that ADHD also is a disorder of. I'm sorry, we can say it two ways. We can say a disorder of regulation, or we can say a regulation disorder. And so the key factors of DBT are to recognize what is out of regulation in your mind, in your body, in your behaviors. It is approached with four, what we call like, modules, if you will. We focus in on mindfulness, distress tolerance, emotion dysregulation. And I always do this. I always get three out of four on my first try. Help me out here.

Tori Berry

Interpersonal effectiveness.

Podcast Host/Interviewer

Interpersonal effectiveness.

Shel Morny

Interpersonal effectiveness. Yes, exactly.

Tori Berry

One, two, three. All together now.

Shel Morny

And a core theme or a foundational theme of dialectics. And a dialectic. If you look it up, you're going to find, like, sciencey explanations that are not part of really what we're talking about here. But the idea is, in behavioral therapy or dialectical behavioral therapy, is that two truths can exist at the same time. Two things that are seemingly opposite can be true at the same time and that we can hold opposites. So my favorite example is you can love and hate someone at the same time, right? Maybe you're in a big argument with your life partner. You're like, oh, claws out. You know, everybody's mad, but you still, in your heart, have a deep and abiding love for that person. How is that possible? Well, it is possible, but for folks who have challenges in their ability to regulate their emotions and then that impacts their thoughts, their feelings, and their behaviors, it can feel almost impossible to hold those two things at once. They have to go to one or the other. And so what we learn in dialectical behavior therapy is how to hold those two truths at the same time by regulating our emotions, learning how to tolerate the distress that is part of every life and will be no matter who you are or where you live or what your life is like. There's going to be stress, distress, and suffering that we have to be able to tolerate. And along the way, how to become much more mindfully aware of what we're feeling, what we're doing, what we're thinking, so that we can slow ourselves down a bit to make proactive choices in how we want to exist in the world. And then, of course, that all affects our relationships, which is that. That fourth category. So I don't. I hope that is, like, a quick and dirty synopsis that makes sense for folks.

Podcast Host/Interviewer

Yeah. Beautifully said. And I think, you know, one thing I would add to that in terms of DBT specifically, is that there are, like, the skill focus is very structured. Right. And I think that that's probably why it's so appealing for us, for those of us who feel lost. Right. Which is like, tell me what to do. And I know that a lot of my coaching clients have come to me with negative experiences in therapy where they're like, they get a lot of the validation part. They get a lot of the, like, it's okay to feel the way you're feeling. There's nothing wrong with you. But they're like, yeah, but, like, how do I fold my laundry? How do I figure out, like, tell me what to do? And on the one hand, DBT has, like, very concrete skills, but on the other hand, is it, like, too structured? That's the thing. I'm always kind of questioning when it comes to, like. Like, there's a lot of homework, there's a lot of paperwork in dbt. So how do you guys manage that? You know, the, like, PDA side, the don't tell me what to do side, and I need a lot of structure side. That always seems to come along with Audi HD especially.

Shel Morny

Definitely. So just. Just to answer your first question, and then I'll let Tori address the second part, you're absolutely right in identifying those challenges. What we are doing in group is we are really focusing on the mindfulness skills, which, if you ask an ADHD person to meditate, for example, that is a very tall order. So we work very creatively and separate mindful meditation, which we do work on and help people develop a practice that makes sense for them, and mindful awareness of what's happening inside of you all of the time. So we really work carefully with that. And then the emotion regulation and the distress tolerance sort of separate from the executive functioning skills, which Tori does in an individual practice. So we don't focus a lot on executive function tools and skills in groups. We do offer body doubling and help with homework. So if you are struggling to get your homework done, we have several sessions per week. You can come to. We also really try to tailor the homework to the neurodivergent population so it's intensely practical. You have several choices you can do. If you're not really a person who wants to write, there's things that you can actually do more with your body. So we really try to mix that up so that our folks are actually interested in doing the work. Do they always do it? No, they don't always do it. That is part of the process too. And anyways, I'll hand it over to Tori to talk more.

Tori Berry

The thing that comes to mind when we're talking about how this group is different is that it's very much feedback informed from the clients. So I'm constantly asking for what do you feel that you have worked on that you're doing well with? What do you need more help with? What areas do we need to focus on? And then I'm synthesizing the answers that I get in creating almost like sub curriculums for the group. So maybe the mindfulness module is only like two or three weeks and then we spend, I don't know, eight, 10 weeks on interpersonal effectiveness. There are a few different frameworks or like course calendars, so to speak, in the DBT manual, the teacher's manual. And you know, that probably is a little bit of my own PDA there, where I look at that and I'm like, well, I don't want to do that. I don't want to do it that way. That doesn't make sense to me. And so we used that framework kind of as a jumping off point. But then we really started to listen to the group members and insert, you know, in the manual itself, it has like, after every module, you're supposed to do two weeks of mindfulness, like revisiting like your mindfulness training and the way that, you know, the group works, that doesn't really vibe with us. So instead we, almost every group have a mindfulness practice and then we don't go back and spend two weeks of sessions on mindfulness specifically. And I'll tell my group members this is one of the things I like about this is I want to be the most authentic, like down to earth professional that I can. So while maintaining my, you know, status as a professional and, you know, my education and all of this, also really like to level with my group members. So I will do something like I'll run a meditation. You know, I made this up the other day where I'll say like, okay, see, like you close your eyes and then collapse your body into a sea and then rise up and sit straight and examine your spine and collapse again. And can you feel your spine move from C to I to see? And then we'll do it for five minutes and then we'll open your eyes, come back to the room and I'm like, alright, so I just made that up. And the point is not to say I wasn't prepared. The point is to say you can go to the bathroom in the middle of the day at work when you're having a breakdown and make up a meditation. You can ground yourself with whatever you have. I sometimes will say, like, reach out your arms and with whatever you can touch. That's how you create your mindfulness activity. So it's really tailored to that ADHD brain. Because guess what? I do not expect any of them to remember in the moment all of the body scan questions they're supposed to ask themselves. There's a page long list of them, right? Like that's just, that's not gonna happen. But if they can grab onto one thing and create a little bit of a mindfulness moment for themselves, then that's gonna work. That's the reality of adhd. And if we're trying to fit ourselves into the textbook, we're going to miss a step and it's gonna feel like once, quote, unquote, once again we have failed when really we can adjust those steps to meet our own needs. So I guess that's just one example of how we tailor the group. Also, like mindful awareness, you know, there's a lot of thought around that being very much meditation focused. An example of how I would encourage someone to have mindful awareness in their day is, and this resonates with a lot of my clients is recognizing common refrains. So, you know, for me it'll be, I just need this, I just need this. I just need to do this. I don't have time. I know that I should slow down, but I don't have time. And if we can highlight and recognize those common refrains, we are being mindful. And what I find is when a lot of my clients recognize the common refrains and name them, quote them, the natural inclination is to challenge them.

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Carvana Customer

I sold my car in Carvana last night.

Tori Berry

Well, that's cool.

Carvana Customer

No, you don't understand. It went perfectly. Real offer down to the penny. They're picking it up tomorrow. Nothing went wrong.

Tori Berry

So what's the problem?

Carvana Customer

That is the problem. Nothing in my life goes as smoothly. I'm waiting for the catch.

Tori Berry

Maybe there's no catch.

Carvana Customer

That's exactly what a catch would want me to think.

Katie Weber

Wow.

Podcast Host/Interviewer

You need to relax.

Carvana Customer

I need to knock on wood. Do we have. What is this table wood?

Tori Berry

I think it's laminate.

Carvana Customer

Okay. Yeah, that's good. That's close enough.

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Tori Berry

Pick up.

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Podcast Host/Interviewer

I think Marshall Linehan would agree. You know, I don't think Marsha Linehan set this up so that it was like, you, you have to do steps one through 50 in order for this to work. I think it was like, let's see how many tools you can have in your toolbox and figure out what works for you in each moment. And so I love the fact that it's grounded in acceptance and mindfulness and meditation and Buddhist practices. But really it's about, like, getting to what she calls the wise mind so that I can become more strategic. And so, like, I find that with coaching, I do that a lot with my clients because I don't know if Tori, if you've probably experienced this too, but, like, clients will come to you and they're in a state of complete dysregulation of like, so what's going to save me? What's going to be that one tool that's going to help me right now? What am I going to do? And it's like, we're not in a strategic mindset right now we're in a reactive mindset. And so it's like, how can I get to a place where I can slow down a little bit and know that actually at the end of the day I'm going to be more productive and more whatever it is we're wanting in our life and not able to achieve if we slow down and get to a state of regulation. And I feel like, you know, that's essentially what she was. Everything you were saying, I feel like she would absolutely endorse.

Shel Morny

Yeah, I think so too. Like, I think we are, we are augmenting, we are, we are adding to, we are not really changing it or replacing it. We're just making it more accessible for the ADHD and the ADHD brain in particular, although we have group members who do not have adhd, also a couple who have primary anxiety. And we find just a lot of similarities in crossover and you know, the need to really, I mean the mindful awareness, it integrates and intersperses throughout dbt. I'm not sure if you, how well versed you are, but the observe skill and the noticing is in every module and it's in every day. And so when you, when you are every week, week after week for a year, encouraged to observe and describe and then participate in whatever it is, you know, your thought patterns, your behaviors, your work, whatever, it does change you. It really does.

Podcast Host/Interviewer

Yeah, absolutely. You know, I read Marsha Linehan's memoir recently and you know, one of the things that astounded me from the memoir was, you know, the notion that there were so many of her colleagues that told her to never share the fact that she was suicidal or that she self harmed because it would ruin, you know, it would, it would ruin her reputation and nobody would take her seriously. And the fact that she was brave enough to do that was so wonderful. But like reading her contemplate whether she also had borderline personality disorder because she, she really was undecided. I think at the end of the day she was sort of like, I feel like maybe, but I don't think she was ever officially diagnosed with it. But I came away from that book thinking this woman is autistic. And also not only that, but like knowing how many women who are diagnosed with neurodivergence in adulthood were previously diagnosed with BPD and that connection there. Right. And I'm so curious to know like what her thoughts are about this whole, you know, about this way in which we are now understanding what a neurodivergent brain looks like and the way in which we enter into dysregulation and crisis and self harm. And these populations, there's so much overlap. And I just spent a year working with adolescents in a crisis clinic where we use dbt. And that's how Tori and I got talking about, like, yeah, we have to do an episode about how amazing DBT is. Because I was just seeing. But like, every single kid who was in a crisis state of adolescent, I was like, they're neurodivergent. Like, I don't think there were any kids that I didn't feel like were neurodivergent. Most of them were diagnosed with adhd. Most of them were. But again, like you had said earlier, Shell, like, they were diagnosed with ADHD in a deficit based lens. Right. They were diagnosed because it was like somebody told them, this is what's wrong with you. And that became part of their identity. And it was really sad for me to see such young kids still in this day and age having their diagnosis as a label for what's wrong with them as opposed to what's amazing and right with them. So I think that that's one of the things that was so amazing to me, watching DBT skills and language over such a short period of time, because most of these kids were just doing this for like three weeks, watching how, how much their mindset changed in themselves in terms of, like, oh, like, everything I've done up until this point is totally fine. Like, it makes sense and what can I do now? Like, what could I do better? And that's, you know, for when you were talking about your favorite dialectic. Like, that's, you know, for me, it was this notion that, like, yeah, everything I've screwed up on, everything I've done up until this moment that has made me question what's wrong with me. It made sense at the time. I was doing the best I could and what's a better way to deal with this next time? And that, like, growth mindset that we talk about a lot in coaching just seemed to. It was just everywhere. Right. Like, it just felt like for me, DBT is where coaching and therapy combine in a beautiful way. And I, yeah, I feel like it does such a great job and I feel like it's not talked about in that way. It's always talked about in a very, like, hoity toity, therapeutic way. And I feel like it's much more, much more accessible than I think a lot of people think it is.

Shel Morny

It really is. And it is much more broadly applicable than people think it is. So, so you'll still see, like, in therapy forums, whether you're on, you know, social media, where, wherever they will say, oh, DBT is for borderline personality. It's like, what are you talking about? DBT is for everyone. And the. And one of the most common refrains that we hear in group is, where has this been? I needed this in high school. You know, I needed this in my young adulthood. And myself, you know, I'm not neurodivergent, and I love dbt. I'm growing all the time. I've been now through it how many times? And it doesn't matter. I'm still learning, stretching, you know, it's still applying in so many areas of my life. So I do wish that if I had one wish, it would be that we would stop limiting the applicability of DBT in the mental health world and in the ADHD coaching world. I think we really should be using it all the time.

Podcast Host/Interviewer

And one of the things I noticed a lot of the time, because validation and creating a validating environment, especially working with adolescents over the last year, was seeing how important important validation is, especially for a young mind and for a neurodivergent mind. I think somebody with ADHD or somebody with any kind of diagnosis, right, like, validation is so key. And I think one of the things I saw a lot from parents was them creating invalidating environments out of a desire to protect, as a. Out of a desire to help. And then seeing it in myself as a parent and seeing, like, how often, you know, I use the example of, like, my son, he had an older sister, he loved nail polish and rainbows and tutus, and he wanted to wear all of that to school. And my gut instinct was like, hey, buddy, I totally think this is great, but maybe don't wear it to school. And, like, knowing that if I ever said that to him, that would be a problem. Right? I didn't have the language for it at the time, but I was like, I knew as a parent, I had to, like, be okay with him going to school as his full self, and if he was going to get bullied, he. He was going to get bullied. But I knew that, like, he had to be accepted at home. And I'm sure there are many examples I'm not sharing right now, but of ways in which I did create an invalidating environment because I'm a human. But I think it was that desire. Like, my desire was to protect him, to say, like, I don't want you to get hurt, and so I want you to Change to fit in. And seeing how as a parent, that desire to have our child fit in and have them change is so, like, it comes from such a good place. Place. But I think it's really damaging, for lack of a better word, in terms of sense of self. And, you know, thinking about, like, what you had said earlier, Tori, about your mom, wondering, like, I don't know why life is so hard for you, I guess, like, what advice might you have for parents or even reparenting ourselves, right, when it comes to, like, validating a neurodivergent child or anyone of, you know, of that age of, like, how do we validate each other and ourselves while also wanting our kids to fit in and be safe?

Shel Morny

It's a classic dialectic, right?

Podcast Host/Interviewer

It is, it is. And I think seeing that, I just saw that pattern so much in parents and really wanted to give everybody a hug because it was like, we're all doing the best we can, and these are ways in which this is actually ultimately quite harmful.

Shel Morny

And what. What would be so bad about communicating just that to your child to say, I love you so much and I love you just the way you are, you know, and I want you to wear what you want and be who you want. Here's the reality at school. You know, these are things that might happen. So let's talk about whether or not you can tolerate that and if you want to mask at school or if you want to do some training or therapy on bullying and, you know, like, let's just get it out in the open so I can validate you and want to protect you, and we could have that conversation and then you can ultimately decide. And I will support that decision because I can't go to school with you. I can't. Fight your battles, right? You may or may not want to fight your battle. Fight your battles. And so we can talk about what that would look like and the pain that might cause you. We just did a whole session. Well, I'm sorry, we did a part of a session and this was feedback informed DBT on when to mask and when to be authentic. Because for that neurodivergent adult, that it is a choice almost every day and in almost every situation how much to mask and how much to be authentic. And so Tori created a curriculum just for that within our DBT framework.

Tori Berry

It was interesting. I was like, ah, I need to sit back because. Because I'm not a parent, so I can't answer this question. But the answer that popped into my head was exactly what Shell said. And it's the same type of work that I do with the group members and with my clients, which is a level of radical acceptance. Right. There is a norm. We cannot change the norm. So we can show up with a little bit of a norm adjustment, or we can show up how we feel is authentic, but there. There will be consequences. And we can look for places and spaces where we can show up authentically without consequences. But we do also have to accept the reality that we are a minority in a world of neurotypical individuals. And so there's. I even have a. I have a unit called Stuff Everyone Seems to Know About Us, you know, where we teach things like, it's okay to not answer a phone call and call back later. It's okay to not hug everyone when you leave a party. It's okay to leave without saying goodbye sometimes.

Podcast Host/Interviewer

Oh, good.

Tori Berry

You know, Shell was like, I feel like this might be a little patronizing, you know, because I have, like, PhD students and, like, you know, professionals in this group. And we had just a resounding outpouring of gratitude for that session. They were like, oh, my gosh. I thought it was just me. I thought it was a language barrier. I thought all of these different feedback from people. So that was really, really awesome. So the radical acceptance piece, I think, is really huge. And then, you know, in the masking versus showing up authentically, I like to think of it as, rather than masking being legible. So what parts of yourself do you want to make sure are legible in this situation? So if you're in a professional setting, you can be professional. And how do you elevate those professional parts of yourself as opposed to performing or pretending to be a way that you are not? And I think that that's a really important distinction to make because we have a lot of this social media that's like, unmask, you know, just be yourself. And I see that, and I say, that's how you get fired.

Podcast Host/Interviewer

Well, and, you know, and I think a lot of the time, there's that question around masking and code switching, which is like, is it safe? You know, they're like, a lot of the time, if you're a person of color, there's a question of safety, too. And so, like, yeah, I really like the way that you frame that, too. Like this version of me, which is the version of me that feels right in this situation.

Tori Berry

Yeah, yeah.

Shel Morny

And I would like to emphasize, too, that one thing Tori said sort of quickly, was that we really encourage people to have at least one safe Space and to identify what that is, where that is, what that looks like and how often you can access that space where you can be your authentic self. Because if you're spending, you know, most of your life masking going to be miserable. There's going to be a lot of internal distress going on. You're going to, you know, kind of like the little kid with ADHD who masks all day at school, especially little girls, and then they come home and fall apart. Right. Because it's been so, so challenging to just keep repressing my true self. So we need to make sure whether we're parenting children or we're living our own adult existence, that we have those safe spaces.

Tori Berry

Yeah. So you don't burn out.

Shel Morny

Right?

Podcast Host/Interviewer

Yeah. And I think that that's, you know, in terms of what I was trying to say earlier, I feel like you just did a much more articulate version of that shell of like, you know, it has to start at home. Right. Like that safe space has to be at home so that they can fall apart when they walk through the door. I mean, you know, I remember when I was telling that to my school psychologist who I like to at my kids school because I'm often tell this story bitterly, but like when I was talking to the school psychologist about my kids anxiety and how they're white knuckling it all day and holding it together and then falling apart at home, she was like, that sounds like a home problem, not a school problem. Yeah. Anyway. But you know, one of the things I think DBT has really helped me with as a human is that, you know, showing grace for ourselves and showing validation and acceptance for ourselves and understanding that like, maybe I didn't have the skills I needed and what, what am I going to learn from this and what skills am I going to moving forward? It's also allowed me to have a lot of grace for other people in a way that I think I wasn't able to access before. As somebody who was late diagnosed, had a lot of grief, had a lot of anger, had a lot of bitterness about like, you know, how I may have been treated and how I needed to mask and all of these ways in which I wasn't supported. Like, I feel like DBT allows us to interact with the world in a much kinder way for ourselves and others. So like, I can look at somebody who did something harmful to me and believe that they were doing the best that they could in that moment. And yes, I was harmed or hurt, you know, but like there was a skill deficit there and So I find it's like much easier for me to have grace with other people. I'm wondering if you notice the same. And like, I feel like as somebody with adhd, it has helped me with my own pda. It's helped me a lot with my RSD rejection sensitivity. Like, it's allowed me to view everybody else as doing the best they can in a way that I wasn't anticipating.

Shel Morny

No doubt. I mean, it definitely starts to permeate everything and every relationship in your life the more you practice and get to know yourself and have grace for yourself. Interestingly, in one of our feedback sessions, we heard that the dialectic of self compassion versus holding myself accountable was really challenging and not addressed directly in the curriculum. So Tori developed a section on that. You want to talk about that, Tori?

Tori Berry

Oh, yeah, it wasn't in my note. Here, let me pull it up. Let's see.

Podcast Host/Interviewer

Yeah, I mean, I also want to hear all about the group and how often you run these groups and how people can find out more. But yeah, talk about the self acceptance versus accountability as a dialectic. Yeah, absolutely.

Tori Berry

Yeah. So there's like some dialectics at the heart of this idea, right? Which is like, I'm doing my best and I can do better. I deserve compassion and my actions have an impact. Or I accept myself and I'm still responsible for how I show up. Those ands are really important. And also the distinction between shame and guilt. Shame stops. Guilt actually can open the door for learning or for change. And so we really dive into, well, are you feeling shame right now or are you feeling guilt because you compromised on a value? Right. And it's really about stopping in the moment, slowing down and asking yourself, what's happening here? Do I need compassion or do I need to hold myself to what I value? And I think that, you know, a recurring theme as well that I made a note of as we were talking here is DBT talks about suffering and distress and crisis. And what I see a lot more of is discomfort and uncertainty. And so pausing and asking ourselves, you know, in this, like, compassion versus accountability is am I just uncomfortable or am I actually in danger? It's the difference between, you know, doing a bunch of push ups and your muscles burning and the muscle fibers tearing so they can regrow and, you know, breaking a finger. Right. One is a constructive version and the other is destructive. And so really stopping and understanding what's happening there. If this is a time that I do need to challenge myself to be uncomfortable or to be uncertain, and maybe if not, then how do I extend compassion to myself? But what it really comes from is slowing down and analyzing critically, thinking what's

Shel Morny

really happening here, which goes back to those observe describe. You know, it's the steps. Yeah, right.

Podcast Host/Interviewer

Which is operating. Yeah. And operating from a place of wise mind as opposed to emotional mind or logical mind. Yeah, yeah.

Shel Morny

Yes.

Podcast Host/Interviewer

Okay, so tell me.

Katie Weber

I know.

Podcast Host/Interviewer

I can't believe they're already this far into. I feel like we just started. This always happens. So how often do you do these? I'm assuming they're virtual groups. Are they? Do you do in person work? I know you're in Southern California. Tell us about the groups and how somebody listening can find you and work with you.

Tori Berry

Yeah, absolutely. So we currently have a cohort starting June 22. Historically, we've been meeting on Mondays, so we meet once a week. We do not go over an hour and a half. And that is by design. Most DBT groups are two hours and I'm hungry at an hour 15. So that's. We usually have my. My dog as the timer too. She starts to climb into my lap and she's a Malinois. So that's a lot. And she's like, it's dinner time, time for group to end. So, yeah, we keep them, you know, as short as possible. Like we said, we do that complimentary body doubling throughout the week, just depending on the group's need or their schedules. And as far as connecting with us, they can go through our website, adhdworksnow.com I'm also on the ACO directory and I have the links to join our group or get more information, you know, submit inquiries. Through both of those avenues, we keep our group affordable too, which is super important to us. We found that a lot of groups are expensive and we feel that the people who need the most help often can't afford an expensive group. So it's $30 a seat per week and we like to hold to that. We also have some, I don't know, what would you call it, like patrons or something who offer financial aid for group members who need it, which is really important to us as well.

Podcast Host/Interviewer

Sorry, is this a closed group or

Katie Weber

is this an ongoing group?

Tori Berry

Oh, it's. So we run in a 12 month cycle.

Podcast Host/Interviewer

Oh, wow. Okay.

Tori Berry

We do a full year. And that is also by design. You know, the workshop idea is nice in theory, but doesn't cover. I don't know how to describe, like a full kind of like cycle of a year of life. You know, like, do we go through the holidays or the. I Don't know, like the winter holidays and then like the summer holiday, like the seasons, we have different life experiences and different challenges. And so it's important to us that we are keeping like a structured stuff, space for those skills to develop and be implemented across a longer period of time. And that's where we see more success. And then the other thing is that we do, we do ask for three month commitments. So we're not saying you need to stay here for a year, but you need to at least be with us for three months. That way we can, you know, establish some rapport. It's really important for group dynamic. And, you know, it's easy for us to quit after a month. And so if we have a little bit of an expectation there, then that pushes back on some of that discomfort and challenges us a little bit to stay and really get that work done.

Shel Morny

Yes, we asked for a three month commitment. Of course we don't enforce it. Sometimes life gets in the way, but it's just a shared agreement between us and our clients that you're going to come and stay for 12 sessions. If you need to leave, that often happens. You know, life gets in the way, that's okay. Then a seat will open up. But we have found that the cohort, there's usually at least a 50% cohort that stays for the entire year and then others will join at those quarterly opportunities and then they end up staying. So there's kind of like a flow. So when you say, is it a closed group? It's closed for 12 weeks at a time.

Tori Berry

Oh, that's a good way to put it. Yeah.

Shel Morny

But then it opens and we always check with our members and so far there has not been any resistance to adding new people. People have seem to be fine with that and they are, you know, pretty, pretty welcoming in that regard. I also wanted to add that in addition to the body doubling for home practice of skills and you know, we call like assignments or whatever, Tori also offers tech support, unlimited tech support between sessions. So if you need a little bit of individual coaching encouragement, you have a question, a concern, you can reach out anytime between sessions and Tori will respond to that. So I think it's different than what a lot of groups are offering and we're very proud of that. Is it expensive? For us, yeah, it is. But this is our passion. So we, you know, we, this is our way of giving back.

Podcast Host/Interviewer

And now, Shel, on the clinical side, you also offer assessments or diagnosis or consultation with therapists or what, what's sort of your role as now that you've come on to ADHD works now.

Shel Morny

Yeah, thanks. So I am semi retired. I have time on my hands so I thought well you know what, I'm going to do some extra study. So I studied up and got certified specifically in ADHD diagnosis which I offered for a very reasonable fee. I'm licensed in California, so if you're outside of California, we can do a consultation, but I can't do a formal diagnosis. But I will give you your data and my opinion for you to take to your licensed provider in your state if you want to do that. I also offer sort of like a case management service which is understanding your employer based benefits. So a lot of people have HSAs or FSAs or sometimes they have an account that their HR department offers for health related expenses but they don't know how to demonstrate medical necessity. That could be for group or that could be for coaching. So I provide letters of medical necessity for people and also guidance and direction and then yeah, general consultation for therapists if they are interested, want it? That I just do for free because I was a clinical supervisor and a senior consultant at Behavioral Health for the last like 10 years of my career and I missed that part. So if therapists want to, want to chat, want to run a case, there's nothing I enjoy more.

Katie Weber

Hey friends, before we get started, I wanted to tell you about something I've been using lately that has made such a meaningful difference in how I plan my days and follow through on my goals. It's called Focus Space. Focus Space pairs a simple intuitive goal setting app with a huge, huge menu of community co working sessions. They have over a hundred to choose from every week and they're all led by warm, dedicated hosts who gently cheer you on in whatever you have to do that day. I love the app. It has a brain dump feature where I can write down everything I want to do whenever I think about it so nothing falls through the cracks. Then in one of the daily wake up sessions I can sort through that list. I can choose what's actually reasonable to accomplish that day and then I map out all of my next steps. From there I pop into a community session where whenever I'm ready and I get some accountability, I stay focused while body doubling with other people and then I can slip out when I'm done. Focus Space was built for brains like ours and I am so glad they exist. The women and ADHD coaches have all been using it too and we are all raving about how helpful it's been for organizing our Days and feeling more productive. Right now, Focus Space is offering women and ADHD listeners a fantastic deal. You can try it for free for 14 days and get 20% off of of your subscription when you use the code WomenADHD. With that discount, it works out to be only about $2 a week, which is money well spent if you ask me. So if you're craving a little more structure in your day and a really warm and friendly space to get your work done, head to get focused space WomenADHD and grab your 20% discount today. Again, that's get focused space, slash WomenADHD and make sure to use the code Win Women ADHD at checkout. You'll be glad you did. And hey, you'll probably see me in one of the sessions.

Podcast Host/Interviewer

I think one of the most difficult questions to answer is the question of do I need a therapist or do I need a coach?

Shel Morny

Yes.

Podcast Host/Interviewer

Right. And I think there should be an and there instead of or. Right. I think they work really well together. But I think anytime we can do kind of a one stop shop or where there's a way in which we can thoughtfully and ethically combine the two, I think is really, really important. Because like I went, you know, I just finished my master's in clinical mental health counseling and so I'm pursuing licensure in New York. And like I thought I was going into this program thinking like I'm going to pivot away from coaching and pivot into therapy. And I came out of this program being like, coaching is awesome. I did not give, really appreciating my coaching background and really feeling like the two work so well together. But there is a lot of clinical gatekeeping, you know, in, in mental health counseling for reasons. Yes, but you know, the two professions are so different and, and very much kept separate in a way that I feel like I'm like, why? You know, I feel like they go so well together. So the fact that you guys are working together from different viewpoints and different training and different frameworks, right. In terms of working with the mind and feeling and emotions, but also strategy and skill building, I think is just for me. I'm all in. I think it's so wonderful for, especially for ADHD and executive functioning and a lot of just the relational stuff that comes with being neurodivergent, like you guys were saying earlier.

Shel Morny

I do also offer clinical consultation for Tori. So we, we run well, not all, but some of her cases where there is comorbidity and whether or not that client is appropriate for coaching, whether or not that client needs to be in coaching and therapy or therapy instead of coaching. And so that's something that I think a lot of coaching practices may not have access to. And we're kind of unique in that way. I'm with you. I think coaching is very therapeutic and it is a lovely complement to psychotherapy. It's very challenging to have therapists come to an understanding and acceptance of that. I do have an article on our website which basically says, these are the clients we would refer to you. These are the clients we would like you to refer to us. You know, and it's really around executive function primarily where the daily living and the existing between sessions needs more handholding, needs more support and coaching. So just as kind of like a quick and dirty summary.

Tori Berry

Yeah. And Shell, the one thing we didn't mention, I never could decide to call her Shell or mom. So Shell mom is. We've been doing in service talks also and educating therapists and psychiatrists about the profession and the work that we're doing. Less so as a, you know, like marketing and more as a service to the field of, you know, mental health and behavioral health care. We really want to make sure that the complementary services are in communication with one another. And in order to do that, someone does need to reach out and educate the other professionals in our field. And so we have been doing some of those talks as well to just spread the word and make sure that the therapists know that the psychiatrists know that there is an extra level of support for their clients and break down that barrier that kind of separates us in the professional community.

Podcast Host/Interviewer

Yeah, well, as somebody who just graduated from a cacre program, like, I wish I could say there was a lot more understanding about neurodivergent needs than there was in the 80s and 90s, but I did not find that that was the case. And I feel like I was always the person in the back of the class with my hair. Actually I was always in the front row. But I was like, I'd have my. I'd have my hand up all the time when we would talk about case conceptualization where I was like, have they been assessed for autism? Have they been assessed for adhd? Because it was just like I see it everywhere. And it was just. It still feels like it is very underrepresented in the curriculum. And, and I feel like motivational interviewing was not anywhere near enough represented in their basic curriculum. Like you really have to be self led in terms of looking at what is really, really helpful in session with clients who might be feeling static or might be feeling, you know, like they're. In terms of behavioral changes and readiness for change. I mean, a lot of that I feel like. Like, really look for therapists who have done a lot of the work themselves around what it's like to work with neurodivergent clients, or even better, go to a place like ADHD works now where, you know, you're getting the knowledge and education from both sides.

Shel Morny

Yeah, you're. You're 100% right. And I, you know, I know I mentioned this in the beginning, but, like, I've been, you know, in the field for 35 years, and it's really the last five years that I've gotten the most education in neurodivergence and adhd. Adhd. So just because someone is seasoned, that's not enough. You really have to ask those core questions. What kind of training and. Or exposure do you have to this population and understanding what's happening, where the research is happening, what are we learning? Because it is changing rapidly, even, you know, and I'm sure you're aware, Katie, but the diagnostic criteria is on the verge of changing again, and I expect it to change quite significantly this time around because there's been so much more research on girls and women in particular and adults in general, and late diagnosis has become, you know, it's not just trendy, it is reality. So right now, the diagnostic criteria is all around children, and that's great for little boys, but white male children.

Podcast Host/Interviewer

Yeah.

Shel Morny

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So that's kind of exciting. It's great. It's an exciting time to be in the field.

Podcast Host/Interviewer

Yeah. Well, this has been fascinating. I'm so glad we got to have this discussion. I easily could have talked to you guys for another couple hours. I'm very passionate about this topic, and I just realized we didn't even get to talk about act, which is acceptance and commitment therapy. And I don't know, just quickly, because I feel like that gets a lot of attention around in terms of effective work with neurodivergent clients. What would you say quickly is just the difference?

Shel Morny

I think there's just a lot of crossover. One is not better than the other. We really love the practicality of dbt. The themes that they share are the ones we emphasize. The acceptance, the understanding that some things can change, some things will not change. The holding of space. We don't do that because we're not therapists. So, you know, in our spaces, you're. You're learning. So an acceptance and commitment therapy therapist will spend More time, holding space. And that's great. And some people need more of that, maybe more of the nurturing. And I'm not saying DBT therapists don't. I'm sure, you know, I'm sure that they. They do too. It's not a huge part of our practice. We do a lot of validation. We do a lot of support, certainly. But in terms of individual, we're really more into, you know, skills, tools, coaching, learning how to understand yourself and others.

Podcast Host/Interviewer

Right, the now what part?

Shel Morny

The now what part?

Tori Berry

Yeah. And what you do with that. Exactly what you do with that is very important because, you know, that's a common theme, is that adhder will research for a lifetime and have all of the information, but the action is one of the hardest parts. So we really fine tune and keep our focus on what we can do now.

Podcast Host/Interviewer

What lovely. Well, thank you guys so much for your time. It's been wonderful to chat with you and yeah, I wish you guys the best.

Katie Weber

This is wonderful.

Podcast Host/Interviewer

And keep doing what you're doing.

Tori Berry

Thank you.

Shel Morny

Thank you so much. Congratulations.

Tori Berry

Yeah, that was awesome.

Podcast Host/Interviewer

Thank you.

Shel Morny

You're working, you're parenting, and you're going to school all at the same time. It's crazy. Good for you.

Podcast Host/Interviewer

It's adhd. That is what it is.

Tori Berry

Sounds about right.

Podcast Host/Interviewer

There you have it.

Katie Weber

Thank you for listening and I really hope you enjoyed this episode of the Women and ADHD podcast. If you'd like to find out more about me and my coaching programs, head over to womenandadhd.com if you're a woman who was diagnosed with ADHD and you'd like to apply to be a guest on this podcast, visit womeninadhd.com podcastguest and you can find that link in the episode show notes. Also, you know, we ADHDers crave feedback and I would really appreciate hearing from you, the listener. Please take a moment to leave me a review on Apple podcasts or Audible.

Podcast Host/Interviewer

And if that feels like too much

Katie Weber

and I totally get it, please just take a few seconds right now to give me a five star rating or share this episode on your own social media to help reach more women who maybe have yet to discover and lean into this gift of neurodivergency. And they may be struggling and they don't even know why.

Podcast Host/Interviewer

I'll see you next time when I

Katie Weber

introduce Interview another amazing woman who discovered she's not lazy or crazy or broken, but she has ADHD and she's now on the path to understanding her neurodivergent mind. And finally using this gift to her advantage.

Podcast Host/Interviewer

Take care till then.

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