Sophie Duka

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Greg Jenner

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Greg Jenner

Hello and welcome to youo're Dead to me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name is Greg Jenner. I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster. And today we're bouncing back to the Chinese Imperial court and bowing our heads in deference as we learn all about one of the 19th century's most formidable rulers, Empress Dowager Cixi. And to help us, we have two very special guests in History Corner. She's a professor of Chinese history at the University of Manchester where she specializes in Ming and Qing era trade and economic history. She's the author of numerous books, including the recent Railway Imperialism in China A Political Biography is Professor Yang Wenzhong. Welcome, Yang Wen.

Professor Yang Wen

Thank you.

Greg Jenner

And in Comedy Corner, she's an award winning comedian and writer. You'll recognize her from loads of tv, including her glorious victory on Taskmaster. And maybe you've seen her recent sellout stand up show. But Daddy, I love her. And you'll certainly remember her from our back catalogue, including episodes on Ashanti, Ghana, the Naughty Nun, Benedetta Carlini and the history of coffee. It's Sophie Juca. Welcome back, Sophie.

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Yay.

Sophie Duka

Thank you. Shishu. Oh, God, I don't want to say it because I was like gearing up to it like a horse up to a jumper. And I was like, you're going to brutalize the most basic word in Chinese. Shishu.

Professor Yang Wen

Shishi.

Greg Jenner

Yeah, that's pretty good.

Sophie Duka

Thank you, Yangwen. Thank you.

Greg Jenner

We've been all over the world together on the show. We've never done Chinese history with you.

Sophie Duka

No.

Greg Jenner

How are you with Chinese history?

Sophie Duka

I think it's probably bad because I was educated in the uk.

ZipRecruiter Advertiser

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Greg Jenner

Did I?

Sophie Duka

I don't know a lot about. And what I know about China has probably been like, filtered through quite a problematic lens. But I did go to China recently. I actually, I say I went to China. I went through Shenzhen Airport and it was a great experience.

Greg Jenner

Great.

Sophie Duka

I loved it.

Greg Jenner

Does that count as going to China?

Sophie Duka

It doesn't?

Greg Jenner

No.

Professor Yang Wen

No. Shenzhen. Shenzhen really is not China.

Greg Jenner

No. And does the name Empress Dowager CIXI ring any bells?

Sophie Duka

I think I've seen it written down. I think it's like I've probably also heard it, but I haven't connected it because of the spelling, which in Roman Alphabet is like C I X I.

Greg Jenner

That's right. In English we'd spell it C I X I.

Sophie Duka

So I think it's probably hard to connect what I've heard to the name. I feel like she's one of these historical badass women, which maybe is slightly infantilizing. She feels like she's an icon. I hope we're not gonna learn that she's like a terrible villain now.

Greg Jenner

We will see. She's a terrible dad. So what do you know? And that brings us to the first segment of the podcast the Sewadian Know. This is where I have a go at guessing what you, our lovely listener, might know about today's subject. And Empress Dowaget. CIXI is known throughout East Asia where she's the subject of any number of films, books and TV shows. But despite her decades in power, she's much less famous in the English speaking world. Then of course, her contemporary, Queen Victoria. Although Cixi does have a brief appearance in Bernardo Bertolucci's 1987 film, the Last Emperor. So who was this woman who ruled China for nearly five decades? How did she cling to power for so long? And why was it never wise to accept one of her cakes? Let's find out. Professor Yang Wen, before we get into CIXI'S birth, could you please paint us a picture of China at the time?

Professor Yang Wen

This was the Qing Dynasty and they were from Manchuria. They are Manchus. They conquered China in 1644. It's amazing. 500,000 people came down to China to conquer this country of 120 million.

Greg Jenner

Wow.

Professor Yang Wen

They ruled China from 1644 to 1911 until the revolution.

Greg Jenner

And the center of power would be what we now call Beijing, but was called Peking then.

Professor Yang Wen

Peking, yes. And this other name, Beiping as well. So there's different names and they lived.

Greg Jenner

What was their palace like? What was it called?

Professor Yang Wen

Forbidden City.

Greg Jenner

Forbidden for whom?

Professor Yang Wen

The ordinary people.

Greg Jenner

Ah, us.

Sophie Duka

Sophie, you and me.

Greg Jenner

They've been on the throne for four centuries at the start of our story. And Sophie, given that CIXI ends up ruling China for this five decades stretch, what kind of family do you think she comes from?

Sophie Duka

Oh, a powerful family, sure.

Greg Jenner

CIXI'S father is a government official. I mean, what level of power would he have had?

Professor Yang Wen

Yes. So her father was basically mid level provincial. Very low, not very high in the echelon.

Greg Jenner

I've called her cixi. That's not really her name in childhood or her youth, is it?

Professor Yang Wen

Yeah. This is her reign title. Yeah.

Greg Jenner

Okay. What do her family call her?

Professor Yang Wen

She's like a controversial character. There's lots of debates about where she was born, what was her nickname, and some people think it's Orchid Girl.

Greg Jenner

That's quite nice.

Professor Yang Wen

Yeah.

Greg Jenner

Her childhood, she's educated, she can read and write.

Professor Yang Wen

Yeah. Even though her father is mid level. But they're Manchu, Remember, Manchu are overlords.

Sophie Duka

Okay.

Professor Yang Wen

Yeah. So no matter how low you are as a Manchu, you're always higher than the Chinese.

Greg Jenner

Oh, I see.

Professor Yang Wen

Yes. I would say she had a very good upbringing because she was able to read and write. She's a very good painter and she could sing in a way. They were bringing her up probably in the hope that she will marry up.

Sophie Duka

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Greg Jenner

Unfortunately, her father was caught taking bribes. Sophie.

Sophie Duka

Hey.

Greg Jenner

He was caught his hand in the cookie jar.

Sophie Duka

Yeah.

Greg Jenner

He lost his job in 1851. When she was 16, they returned to Beijing and he died. He fell ill and died of shame,

Sophie Duka

maybe of shame, probably just some illness.

Greg Jenner

What is this next stage for her age? 16. Does she go to Beijing and try and become a consort? Is that the route?

Professor Yang Wen

Yeah. So what happens is every two or three years the court will have an order edict saying Manchu families who have girls between 13 and 16 or 17, 12, that age must sent them to the court to be selected. It's like a beauty contest. So it's a level by level elimination. So by the time you get to the imperial court.

Greg Jenner

Ms. Manchu.

Professor Yang Wen

Yeah. So yeah, yeah, Ms. Manchu. It's a beauty contest. Yeah.

Greg Jenner

Okay.

Sophie Duka

I mean if you're hot, you're like, sure, you're banking on that.

Greg Jenner

I never had that. Sadly, I've never traded on my hotness. So we have a 16 year old going to court and she is selected.

Professor Yang Wen

Yes. So was her sister.

Greg Jenner

Oh, really?

Professor Yang Wen

Younger sister. But she was given to a prince, so she was given to the brother of the emperor. So she, when she was chosen, she actually. Because there are nine ranks.

Sophie Duka

Okay, nine ranks of emperor's concubine. Yes.

Professor Yang Wen

Okay, so there's only one Empress, but the rest are senior, you know, all the sorts of titles. So she actually starts at rank six. Oh, out of nine. So she's nine? Yeah.

Sophie Duka

It's like sets and maths.

Greg Jenner

I was going to ask you, Sophie, I mean, you know, if you were starting on level six of nine.

Sophie Duka

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Greg Jenner

How would you try and stand out amongst your competition? There's, you know, there's 10 other girls there.

Sophie Duka

10 other girls, yeah. This feels very much like lots of TikTok format. The Emperor's gonna pop a balloon if he doesn't like me. I think. I think I would be like, okay, everyone here is really pretty, but maybe I've got, like an additional. Maybe I can soothe him.

Greg Jenner

Soothe.

Sophie Duka

Maybe I can sing. Like, that's. I'm saying, hypothetically, I would do that. If I was to sing, it would not be soothing. Maybe I would, like, sort of try and show him some of what I've learned outside so that he knows that I'm intelligent and useful as well as pretty nice or, you know, just have a son.

Greg Jenner

So presumably Yang Wen, Lady Lan, charms the Emperor because she ends up, obviously, with a senior career. So he sort of chooses her and she becomes his favorite by sort of age 19 or so. She's the top of the concubines in a way.

Professor Yang Wen

The only difference is that she gave birth to her son.

Greg Jenner

Ah, okay.

Professor Yang Wen

On the 27th of April, 1856, gave birth to a son called Zai. Tunnel with the sun, she can walk with her head high.

Greg Jenner

She's promoted. And every time she's promoted, she gets a new name. She goes from Lana to Lady Lan. Then she becomes Concubine Yi.

Professor Yang Wen

Yeah.

Greg Jenner

Then when she has a child, Concubine Yi, a year later, she gets elevated to the fourth rank, becomes Consort Yi.

Professor Yang Wen

Yeah.

Sophie Duka

Okay.

Greg Jenner

And then one year later, she becomes Noble Consort Yi.

Professor Yang Wen

Yeah.

Greg Jenner

And she goes to the third. So she started at level six and she goes to level three.

Professor Yang Wen

Yeah.

Greg Jenner

Which is as high as you can go.

Professor Yang Wen

Phenomenal.

Greg Jenner

Yeah.

Professor Yang Wen

She can't be Empress because the Empress was already there. The Empress is like the first wife you never touch. You can't touch her. You can't touch her because it's a political marriage.

Sophie Duka

Yeah. Is her promotion completely at the discretion of the Emperor?

Greg Jenner

Yes.

Professor Yang Wen

Her talent helped at this point because it's mid-1850s. We have conflicts. War coming. The Taiping Rebellion, the domestic rebels and the British coming. Second Opium War. The Russians were annexing land in the north. So it's a lot of trouble. The Young Emperor really was not fit for the job.

Greg Jenner

Yeah. He's only a few years older than her, isn't he?

Professor Yang Wen

Yeah, he's in his early 20s.

Greg Jenner

Yeah. So during this time, the Emperor is struggling and he's turning to drugs, which means presumably someone needs to run the show. And we have a young lady who going, I'll do it.

Professor Yang Wen

Yeah. So she began by. She goes into his office and there's a stacks of documents he needs to go over and decide, you know, somebody, we need £30 million, whatever. Tales. And for the rebels. And there's a disaster here. The people are dying. Right. So there are things that he needs to do to decide. But he's like, you know, he's just not up to it. And guess who's up to it?

Greg Jenner

Yeah. It's not the Empress who says, I'll do it.

Sophie Duka

It's level three.

Greg Jenner

Level three?

Professor Yang Wen

Yeah.

Sophie Duka

Oh my God.

Greg Jenner

Consort. Consort y. Consort Y.

Professor Yang Wen

And she loved doing this.

Greg Jenner

And of course they are defeated in the Second Opium War. The treaty is forced upon them in the Kowloon Peninsula and so on. So it's gone really wrong. And then it goes even worse. Sophie, do you know what happens to the Emperor?

Sophie Duka

He gets real sick from opium.

Greg Jenner

Yeah.

Sophie Duka

Gets real, real sick.

Greg Jenner

And then he gets as sick as you can get. He gets dead.

Sophie Duka

He gets dead. He gets dead from opium.

Greg Jenner

Yeah. He died in 1861.

Sophie Duka

Oh, duh.

Greg Jenner

Which presumably leaves our Lady Consort Yi in serious trouble. You think, right?

Sophie Duka

Oh, yeah. Because she's not in favor anymore.

Greg Jenner

No, there's no more Emperor in favor. But of course, she does have a son. Oh.

Sophie Duka

Who is the only heir.

Greg Jenner

The only heir. So is this where Yangwen we get now? Another name change. We finally get to meet cixi.

Professor Yang Wen

Yes.

Greg Jenner

Okay.

Sophie Duka

Final form.

Greg Jenner

Final form. Actually, no, there's more to come. So she now is the Regent on behalf of her little boy.

Professor Yang Wen

Yeah. So what happens? Because the boy is the only heir, only son. So he gets to be Emperor now the original Empress becomes Empress Dowager.

Greg Jenner

Right.

Professor Yang Wen

Okay. But because she's the mother of this six year old boy, so she is also elevated to Empress Dowager Su. She is below the Empress Dowager.

Greg Jenner

So Empress Dowager number one is Shi An.

Professor Yang Wen

Yes.

Greg Jenner

And Empress Dowager number two is our Lady Lan. Turn Yi turned cixi.

Sophie Duka

Yeah. Okay.

Professor Yang Wen

Wow.

Greg Jenner

Wow.

Sophie Duka

It's a lot of extended family.

Greg Jenner

It's a lot of extended family. And also two women who now have to join forces to run the show. But do they have the same values and.

Sophie Duka

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Greg Jenner

So surprisingly, Yang Wen, the two women team up, right? They do they become a kind of double actress.

Sophie Duka

Love that.

Greg Jenner

Yeah. So how does that work? Who makes decisions? Or do they both have to agree on a decision?

Professor Yang Wen

Yes, they do.

Greg Jenner

Right, yeah.

Professor Yang Wen

So in the beginning, they worked actually like a good team because they have common interest. Because the emperor had appointed an agency of eight ministers. Eight men. These eight men didn't treat these two women very well as an equal. Right, of course. You don't like that, Right? It's like, what, I'm Empress Dowager and you're treating me like this.

Greg Jenner

Yeah. And they launched a bit of a coup. I mean.

Professor Yang Wen

Yes, yes.

Sophie Duka

So they get rid of the ministers.

Greg Jenner

They get rid of the ministers.

Sophie Duka

Amazing. This is great. Oh, no.

Greg Jenner

At the start of the episode, you said a bit of a kind of boss lady vibes.

Sophie Duka

Badass.

Greg Jenner

Yeah.

Sophie Duka

Collaboration.

Greg Jenner

Yeah. So far, how do you feel about her? I mean, she's obviously risen up.

Sophie Duka

I feel positive about her. Like she's enterprising. I feel like she's. She's like done right by her family. She's had a son. I'm on board.

Greg Jenner

Okay, we'll check back in later because maybe it changes this power sharing. It's fine. While the emperor's a boy, he's small, he's six, he's little. He doesn't understand the world. Surely when he becomes 13 or 14, he's going to want to get rid of his mum and his stepmom or whatever it is. He's going to want to go solo.

Professor Yang Wen

So he wasn't a good emperor. And then he rushes into many decisions. He gets, you know, because can you imagine, 18 years old, gee, I'm an emperor, I could wear anything. Right. He fires ministers without consulting his to mothers. Right. And of course it doesn't work that way.

Sophie Duka

Yeah.

Professor Yang Wen

And he had a much better relationship with that is biological mother than his biological mother. Because the biological mother is a dominating figure.

Greg Jenner

Okay.

Professor Yang Wen

You know, she would. She would flap him.

Greg Jenner

She slap him.

Professor Yang Wen

Yeah. Yeah.

Greg Jenner

Wow.

Sophie Duka

Wow.

Professor Yang Wen

And she would slap him with the ruler. In China, if you failed examination or didn't do your homework, you stuck your hands out and the teacher or your mother can use the ruler to beat you.

Greg Jenner

He's the Emperor of China.

Professor Yang Wen

Yes, I know.

Sophie Duka

She's using the ruler with a ruler.

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Greg Jenner

There you go. She stalls him. She won't hand him full power yet. Do you know what she demands of him? First?

Sophie Duka

He has to get married.

Greg Jenner

Yes. Very good.

Sophie Duka

Yes.

Greg Jenner

You've got good instincts here, Sophie.

Sophie Duka

Hey, I don't have mothers in law. Future mothers in law.

Greg Jenner

Yes. She demands he Must get married first. And so what? They choose the girls for him.

Professor Yang Wen

Ah, that comes the real interesting story.

Greg Jenner

Okay.

Professor Yang Wen

Because you have the beauty contest, right.

Greg Jenner

And he's 18 years old, Ms. Manchu.

Professor Yang Wen

Yeah. He go pops around.

Sophie Duka

Oh, yeah.

Professor Yang Wen

All those nice good looking girls. And then he chose the one he likes. It's also the one that the Empress Zi an likes.

Greg Jenner

Right.

Sophie Duka

Okay.

Professor Yang Wen

It's a ranking family political marriage. But this is a pretty girl, very well educated, knew how to be Empress and all that.

Greg Jenner

By 1874, the emperor, he gets ill. And I think we know where this story goes because we've heard it already before. What happens to him this time?

Professor Yang Wen

He died.

Greg Jenner

He died?

Professor Yang Wen

Yeah.

Greg Jenner

What was his illness? Because there was an official illness and there was a real illness.

Professor Yang Wen

Yeah, the official was smallpox.

Sophie Duka

Okay.

Professor Yang Wen

But because he's got spots all over the place and his body was kind of rotting, we think it's syphilis.

Greg Jenner

Ah, okay. And so, sir, she. She has lost a sort of a husband of sorts. She's now lost her son. There are now no more men to control, Sophie. So how is she going to cling to power?

Sophie Duka

Oh, I guess there are no boys at all.

Greg Jenner

Well, she finds one.

Sophie Duka

Oh, she finds one. Yeah.

Greg Jenner

She digs up her nephew. Right?

Professor Yang Wen

Yeah. So for her to continue to be Empress Dowager, she needs another son. So where did she get the other son? Remember, her sister was also in the beauty contest. And the sister was married off to the brother of the Emperor. So it's her own nephew from both sides.

Sophie Duka

Yeah.

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Greg Jenner

so she's on to sort of emperor number three. Yeah. So she's back in charge again, right?

Professor Yang Wen

Yeah.

Greg Jenner

So she's back in the hot seat.

Professor Yang Wen

Yeah. And a lot of Manchu nobles were against this because this is not natural. And before we go there, her daughter in law, remember her son, had an empress, the one she didn't like. She was actually pregnant, but that pregnant. Ah, this pregnant Empress Dowager Empress who was about 18, 19 years old, died three months after the Tungzhi Emperor died.

Greg Jenner

Suspicious timing.

Professor Yang Wen

Very suspicious timing. She was pregnant. We know that for sure.

Greg Jenner

And soon after, the Empress Dowager Shi an also dies. Suspicious timing. Do you know how CIXI was rumored to have been involved in this second

Sophie Duka

one with the Empress Dowager? Her former.

Greg Jenner

Her former sort of, you know, partner in crime.

Sophie Duka

Partner in crime. Women owned business. She. I feel like a poisoning.

Greg Jenner

Yeah, it is a poisoning.

Sophie Duka

Yeah, I feel like that happens with people with flower names.

Greg Jenner

Do you know what the poison was put in?

Sophie Duka

Ooh, a drink.

Greg Jenner

No, I mentioned at the beginning, actually it was put in a sweet cake.

Sophie Duka

A sweet cake?

Greg Jenner

Sweet cake. A bake off special. And suddenly the Dowager Empress Xu' an is dead. People at court are suspicious, but they can't prove it.

Professor Yang Wen

Nope, nothing is proved.

Greg Jenner

So now we have one woman running the show because there's a four year old boy over here and only one Empress. That's what she wants. So finally, CIXI is the absolute power behind the. She is the throne. Really?

Professor Yang Wen

Yes.

Greg Jenner

Sophie, obviously you're not gonna commit a crime anytime soon, but if you had To. If you were gonna have to take out a comedy rival, Catherine Bohar, get rid of her now.

Sophie Duka

Catherine would never eat anything I served. You can keep that in. How would I do it? I think I'd have to do something in the green room. I think if you put free chips in the green room, in any green room in the country, comics are gonna eat it.

Greg Jenner

That's true.

Sophie Duka

So I think it would have to be like hot fries.

Greg Jenner

The problem is all the comedians would die. It wouldn't be just one. You would lose an entire bell of comedians.

Sophie Duka

Yeah. But I mean, like, I don't mind taking out a night at the Comedy Store.

Greg Jenner

How do you imagine her as a ruler? We've talked about her as sort of climbing the ladder in terms of court politics. What do you imagine she's like in terms of China?

Sophie Duka

I imagine she's not fun.

Professor Yang Wen

I love that.

Sophie Duka

That's great. I don't think she's. I think. Because I think she's, like, had a lot of time tolerating these wastrel or literal baby kings. So I feel like she's maybe a bit more austere. She's a bit more tight with the purse strings and a bit more punitive.

Greg Jenner

Sure.

Sophie Duka

Is that correct?

Greg Jenner

Yang Wen, what is in terms of her public policy, in terms of what she does for the people of China? What can we ascribe to her?

Professor Yang Wen

In a way, she was a good ruler because after the second Opium War, China basically avoided conflict with the west for 20 or 30 years.

Greg Jenner

Yeah.

Professor Yang Wen

And she launched reform. She sanctioned a lot of reform projects. China was learning from the west, catching up, modernizing, industrializing. She sanctioned all those projects.

Greg Jenner

Yeah. She built warships and weapons.

Professor Yang Wen

Yes. Railways and all that stuff. So telegraph lines and modern factories. Yeah.

Greg Jenner

I mean, you've written a book on the history of the railway. Railways in China. That's her policy.

Professor Yang Wen

Yeah.

Greg Jenner

And then, of course, her nephew. Son grows up and he becomes Emperor Guanju.

Professor Yang Wen

Yes. And the same story with the emperor. I was gonna say repeats again.

Greg Jenner

Right. So she's like, you can't. You can't be emperor until you're married, and I'm gonna choose your wife. Is that right?

Professor Yang Wen

Yes.

Sophie Duka

Wow.

Greg Jenner

There's all these external pressures on her, these wars, China fighting Japan, France and so on. And she's trying to bring in these reforms in the army and in society. But there is a coup against her, Sophie. And do you know what happens in this coup? Do you know who leads the coup, perhaps?

Sophie Duka

Coup, I'd say probably led by another concubine.

Greg Jenner

Oh, Nice.

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Yeah.

Greg Jenner

A rival, sir. She's climbed the ladder.

Sophie Duka

Concubine of concubine. Yeah. Someone in the nine levels.

Greg Jenner

Yeah, it's a good guess. Yang Amin is not a concubine.

Professor Yang Wen

Nope.

Greg Jenner

Do you want to tell us who it is?

Professor Yang Wen

It's the Emperor.

Greg Jenner

It's her nephew.

Professor Yang Wen

Her nephew.

Greg Jenner

It's amazing that we've called it a coup because he is the Emperor.

Sophie Duka

He's like, hold on a minute.

Greg Jenner

Not a coolness. It's my own throne. But, yeah, he tries. He tries to get rid of her.

Professor Yang Wen

Yes.

Greg Jenner

And she does some political judo.

Professor Yang Wen

Yes.

Greg Jenner

And she gets rid of him.

Professor Yang Wen

Yeah. Well, she put him under house arrest for the next.

Sophie Duka

This is the audacity. I love it.

Professor Yang Wen

Yeah, this makes a fantastic film. She put him under house arrest on an island.

Sophie Duka

Okay. Island arrest.

Professor Yang Wen

Yeah. Yeah. From September 1898 to November 1908, when he died.

Greg Jenner

So 10 years.

Professor Yang Wen

10 years.

Greg Jenner

So is he sort of secretly like, does the rest of the country know that their emperor is stuck in a shed somewhere?

Professor Yang Wen

No.

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Really?

Professor Yang Wen

Because all the edicts were still issued in the name of the Emperor.

Greg Jenner

The Gwangju Emperor. Okay, so there we go. So if you come for the. Well, I was gonna say come for the King. If you come for the Empress Dowager, you better not miss Sophie.

Sophie Duka

You better not miss.

Professor Yang Wen

Wow.

Sophie Duka

Yeah.

Greg Jenner

So her own nephew in house arrest.

Sophie Duka

Her own nephew on an island.

Greg Jenner

Possibly poisoned her sort of business partner.

Sophie Duka

Yeah.

Greg Jenner

Possibly poisoned a pregnant woman. Yeah. She died in 1908. Sophie, do you know what her final act was? Literally within days before her death. What was the last thing she did

Sophie Duka

in her final days? She knew she was gonna die.

Greg Jenner

She's at the end of her life.

Sophie Duka

She picked her heir.

Greg Jenner

Well, do you remember the Emperor who's still in house arrest?

Sophie Duka

Oh, yeah. On the island.

Greg Jenner

She got rid of him.

Sophie Duka

Oh, no.

Greg Jenner

One day before she died.

Professor Yang Wen

16 hours before.

Greg Jenner

16 hours before she died.

Sophie Duka

Oh, my God.

Greg Jenner

She made sure he wasn't gonna come back to power.

Sophie Duka

Wow. She's a real bitter lady. A lot better. I mean, she's like, you don't have to get bitter if you take care of business before you go.

Greg Jenner

Yeah, she just. She lined up all the dominoes.

Professor Yang Wen

She was dying, and she said to people around her that he must die before I die.

Greg Jenner

Okay, so she bumped off the emperor. So who was the next. The next person to take over is the last emperor. The famous last emperor.

Professor Yang Wen

Yeah, yeah, the last emperor.

Greg Jenner

And he's another three year old boy.

Professor Yang Wen

Yes. So when you see boy emperors in Chinese history, something fishy is going on, right?

Greg Jenner

Okay. That three year old is the son of the nephew that she murders. So. And of course, he abdicates in 1911, and that is the end of the imperial story, so quite the life. Sophie.

Sophie Duka

Yeah.

Greg Jenner

How do you feel about Shixi now, sir?

Sophie Duka

She. I feel resoundingly positive. I feel good about her because I

Greg Jenner

feel like she entered her villain era and I'm not sure she left it.

Sophie Duka

Yeah, she didn't really depart from the villain era, but I mean, like, she played the game. She was an incredible player of the game. Also, a little bit of poison. A little bit of poison is not the worst thing in the world. And I think I really respect how she refused to let adult men be in charge. Hey, I don't love that she murdered a pregnant woman.

Greg Jenner

Sure.

Sophie Duka

And you can quote me on that. I can't stay mad at her. I know she did some bad things.

Greg Jenner

Okay.

Sophie Duka

But I think she is sort of an inspiration.

Greg Jenner

The Nuance window. That brings us to our nuance window. This is where Sophie and I sit quietly and brainstorm new noble names for ourselves for two minutes. We need, I think, eight new names each, probably, while Professor Yang Wen holds court and tells us something that we need to know about Empress Dowager cixi. And my stopwatch is ready. You have two minutes. Take it away.

Professor Yang Wen

Professor Zhong Xi has been wronged in some ways by historians for generations because she's a woman and because of allegedly the things she did. If you look in the long run, if she wasn't there, China might have disappeared in 1862. So you can say that she helped pop up the Qing Dynasty for another four or five decades after the second Opium War. That's number one. Number two, the reform. Xi stepped in to stop hundred days reform. If you look from today's perspective, it might be too early. China might not have been ready for it as a country. Because if China was not ready, it will cause chaos. Because the political reforms that the Guangxu Emperor wanted, she also has one saving grace. As historians have managed to mine further into the archives, we realized that the Guangxu Emperor who wanted all this radical reform, her nephew Emperor actually was in secret communication with the Japanese. He met with the full time Japanese Prime Minister. There was recommendation from ranking Chinese intellectuals that Japan should steer China in 1898. That is something she could not accept, and that is something that today's Chinese would never accept. So that may redeem her.

Greg Jenner

Amazing. Thank you so much. I mean, really interesting.

Sophie Duka

Oh my God. I'm like, put him on an island.

Greg Jenner

I mean, It's a really interesting point, the what if. You know, I don't usually like what ifs with history because, you know, history is chaos and we have to imagine it. But if she wasn't there, the story of China might have been so radically different.

Professor Yang Wen

Yeah. China needed a strong character.

Greg Jenner

Yeah. And she certainly was strong who kept things together. I could see why you're on her side. Yeah. I'm not sure I agree with her, the way she went about things, but

Sophie Duka

so, you know, I fully support. I would. If Saoirse has, you know, 100 fans, I am one of them. If she has 10 fans, I am one of them. If she's 10 fans, I've been poisoned by a bad cake.

Greg Jenner

And listener, if you want more brilliant biographies with Sofa Duga, check out our episodes on Benedetta Carlini, the saucy nun, Ramses the Great, another sort of big, powerful name. And of course, The Chevalier de St Georges, the great composer. And for more Chinese history, why not listen to our episodes on the history of Kung Fu, the Tang Dynasty and the Terracotta warriors, of course. All very interesting. If you enjoy the podcast, please share the show with your friends. Subscribe to youo Dead to me on BBC Sounds to hear new episodes 28 days earlier than anywhere else. I'd just like to say a huge thank you to our guests. In History Corner we have the incredible Professor Yang Wen Jung from the University of Manchester. Thank you, Yang Wen.

Professor Yang Wen

Thank you for having me.

Greg Jenner

It's been an absolute pleasure. And in Comedy Corner, we have the superstar Sophie Duka. Thank you, Sophie.

Sophie Duka

Thank you so much.

Greg Jenner

And to you, lovely listener. Join me next time as we raise another overlooked historical subject up through the ranks. But for now, I'm off to go and have a lie down. My producers fed me a weird tasting cake before the recording and I feel a bit woozy. Bye bye.

Sophie Duka

Hello, Alex von Tunzelman here with a brand new series of history's heroes. People with purpose, brave ideas and the courage to stand alone. Including the little known story of a famous authority caught up in a horrific accident which would require all his courage. Dickens remained in the river, helping the

Greg Jenner

rescue, assisting the wounded.

Sophie Duka

He didn't search out to be heroic.

Greg Jenner

He didn't play on his heroism.

Sophie Duka

Subscribe to History's Heroes on BBC Sounds.

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