Summary6 min read

Podcast Summary: You're Dead to Me – History of the Telephone (Radio Edit)

Podcast: You're Dead to Me
Host: Greg Jenner (BBC Radio 4)
Episode: History of the Telephone
Date: June 26, 2026
Guests: Professor Johan Morris (historian, University of Aberystwyth), Catherine Bohart (comedian, writer, actor, podcaster)

Episode Overview

For its 150th episode, “You’re Dead to Me” celebrates the sesquicentennial of the telephone’s invention by exploring the history, rivalries, and social impacts surrounding the iconic device. Host Greg Jenner is joined by comedian Catherine Bohart and historian Professor Johan Morris for a lively, comedic yet historically rigorous conversation, tracing the path from telegraphy to “ahoy hoy!” and “hello,” remarkable inventors, legal battles, and Victorian anxieties brought on by the telephone’s arrival.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Communication Before the Telephone

(04:36–07:00)

Before electric telegraphy, long-range communication meant physical post (letters), carrier pigeons, or hopeful staring out windows and “yearning” (jokes Catherine Bohart).
In the 1830s and 1840s, the electromagnetic telegraph (Wheatstone, Cooke in the UK; Morse in the US) revolutionized information flow, enabling rapid commercial and wartime communication via Morse code and wires stretched alongside railways.
Quote:
- “Information travels essentially as fast as you can… send a letter at the same speed that you could go if you went by horse carriage.” — Prof. Johan Morris (05:16)

2. The Challenge of Transmitting Sound

(09:25–11:03)

Telegraphy enabled writing (“telegraphy” = far-away writing), but “telephony” introduced the radical idea of sending sound over distance.
Early attempts (the “Enchanted Lyre” and Charles Wheatstone’s telephone) succeeded at transmitting sound but not the human voice—a critical difference.
Quote:
- “Users have to be insulated. They have to stand on glass stools.” — Prof. Morris on Meucci’s bizarre prototype (12:03)

3. Who Really Invented the Telephone? The Rivalries

(11:03–14:25)

While Alexander Graham Bell is most famous, others played near-equal roles:
- Antonio Meucci (Italian immigrant to the US) filed a caveat for a “teletrophone” in 1871 but lacked funds to finalize a patent.
- Elisha Gray (American) developed a harmonic telegraph; on the same day in 1876, both Gray and Bell filed at the US Patent Office—Gray submitted a caveat, Bell’s lawyers submitted a full patent.
Bell edged out Gray legally, but moral and technical debates persist.
Quote:
- “The legal battle literally went down to the wire.” — Greg Jenner (17:22)

4. The First Phone Call and Early Skepticism

(18:21–19:07)

Bell’s historic “Mr. Watson, come here, I want you” was made to his assistant just one room away—not exactly what impressed the public.
Reaction was mixed: people were amazed yet unimpressed at the lack of immediate practicality.
Quote:
- “If it’s possible to be simultaneously bedazzled and unimpressed, people are bedazzled and unimpressed.” — Prof. Morris (19:07)

5. Technical Issues and Social Changes

(20:12–22:33)

The earliest telephones suffered interference (“crossed wires”), noise, and required operator intermediaries for connections.
Introduction of the “party line” meant several households shared one line—making eavesdropping commonplace, to Catherine’s delight.
Quote:
- “Bring it back! Are you joking? That’s fantastic!” — Catherine Bohart on party lines (21:19)

6. Women in the Telephone Industry: The “Hello Girls”

(22:33–24:08)

Early telephone operator roles offered unprecedented employment opportunities for middle-class women, in contrast to the previously all-male (and rowdy) telegraph offices.
Nicknamed the “hello girls,” these women were considered reliable, “docile,” and trusted with the operation of switchboards.
Quote:
- “This is an important new kind of employment for middle class young women… something that allows degrees of financial independence.” — Prof. Morris (22:59)

7. “Hello” vs. “Ahoy Hoy”: The Battle of the Greeting

(24:08–26:09)

Alexander Graham Bell wanted “ahoy hoy” as the standard greeting; Thomas Edison promoted “hello” (an American hailing-word), which became globally entrenched.
“Hello”’s clarity on noisy lines helped it win out, and it’s become one of the world’s most common words due to the telephone.
Quotes:
- “Ahoy hoy!” — recurring joke, Greg Jenner (various)
- “So hello becomes the official word because of Edison. He says it cuts through…” — Greg Jenner (25:45)

8. Victorian Anxieties and Etiquette

(26:12–28:10)

Victorians worried phones could destroy manners, enable (gasp!) pajama-wearing or adultery from home, or disrupt class boundaries. The real concern, though, was women gossiping so much that men couldn’t get business done.
Quote:
- “If men are sitting down on the phone, that’s wildly inappropriate. They should stand to speak to a woman.” — Greg Jenner on Victorian values (27:37)

Memorable Moments & Notable Quotes

“I’m like, teach me something. I’m so excited.” — Catherine Bohart brings infectious enthusiasm to ‘Comedy Corner’ (02:44)
“You’re not putting your phone in rice yet. Hello? Hello?” — Greg Jenner makes a clever pun while discussing Philip Reis (10:52)
“Electromagnetic yearning.” — Greg Jenner mock-describes early telephony with tongue-in-cheek (18:46)
“Well, I just want to get to the information!” — Catherine, contrasting Victorian male resistance to chit-chat with her own preferences (19:46)
“The Lionel Richie song: ‘Ahoy Hoy, is it me you’re looking for?’” — Greg Jenner reimagines pop classics under Bell’s preferred greeting (25:59)

The Nuance Window: The Telectroscope Dream

(28:10–30:03)

Professor Morris offers a “Nuance Window,” explaining that almost immediately after the telephone was invented, Victorians began fantasizing about the “telectroscope”—a yet-to-be-invented device that would combine sound and vision (essentially, video calling or Zoom).

This reflects the period’s optimism and belief in continuous technological progress: the future was envisioned as a destination always just out of reach but perpetually promised by new gadgets.

Quote:

“What I think is fascinating… is what it shows us about the telephone and what the telephone meant. It’s the future… starting to think about the future basically the way that we do.” — Prof. Johan Morris (29:20)

Key Timestamps

01:41 – Episode and guest introductions
04:36 – Communication before the telephone
07:29 – Alexander Graham Bell’s biography
11:03 – Rival inventors (Meucci, Gray)
13:40 – Patent conflicts and legal battles
17:22 – “Down to the wire” patent contest
18:21 – Bell’s first telephone call
20:12 – Technical issues and party lines
22:33 – The rise of the “hello girls”
24:17 – “Hello” vs. “ahoy hoy”
26:12 – Social concerns and etiquette
28:10 – Nuance Window: The telectroscope
30:03 – Reflections on the future, listener signoff

Episode Tone & Style

Witty and Playful: Greg Jenner and Catherine Bohart trade jokes, puns, and modern analogies (e.g., yearning as a form of communication, reimagined Lionel Richie songs).
Richly Informative: Despite comedy, accurate historical detail is provided, especially by Professor Morris, who balances technical depth with humor and clarity.
Accessible: The episode translates complex historical concepts into lively, relatable conversation—making history fun without sacrificing facts.

Final Thoughts

This episode provides a thorough yet highly entertaining look at the birth of the telephone, revealing not just the technical breakthroughs, but the human stories, rivalries, and societal upheaval it provoked. Comedic banter keeps the historical narrative brisk, and listeners walk away with both memorable trivia (“hello girls”! “ahoy hoy!”) and new perspectives on how transformative technologies shape and are shaped by the cultures that invent them.

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Transcript262 lines

[00:00]
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[00:33]
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[01:41]
Greg Jenner
Ahoy hoy and welcome to youo're Dead To Me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name is Greg Jenner and I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster. And today it is our 150th episode. And so we are picking up the receiver and dialing back exactly 150 years to learn all about the invention of the telephone. And to help us with this special anniversary episode, we have two very special callers on the line in History Corner. He's professor of History at the University of Aberystwyth and he's an expert on the history and culture of Victorian science. You may have read one of his wonderful books including how the Victorians Took Us to the Moon. And you'll remember him from our episode on Vital Electricity, it's Professor Johan Morris. Welcome back, Johan.
[02:21]
Professor Johan Morris
It's a pleasure to be here again, Greg.
[02:23]
Greg Jenner
Delighted to have you back. And in Comedy Corner, she's an award winning comedian, writer, actor and podcaster. You may have seen her hilarious stand up shows or on the TV on Last One Laughing island, qi, the mash Report Live at the Apollo. Maybe you've heard her Radio 4 show too long. Didn't read. But you'll certainly remember her from one of our many past episodes, including the history of general elections and Julie d'. Aubigny. It is the wonderful Catherine Bohar.
[02:45]
Catherine Bohart
Hi. I'm so happy to be back. I feel like it's so nice of you to list my credits, but here I'm just a history nerd. I'm like, teach me something. I'm so excited. Science. You say science. Because I, I did study history, but pretty much every place I could chose to study social history. And so I'm out of my depth. I'm excited.
[03:03]
Greg Jenner
I'm guessing you own a telephone, Catherine. I mean, you know, we all have to, right? In the modern world.
[03:08]
Catherine Bohart
Yes. And I'm not sure I am one of those people who are like, if I didn't have to, I wouldn't. I think I'm a bit like, it's my special friend. Me and my special friend.
[03:17]
Greg Jenner
Do you know anything about its invention? It's early history.
[03:19]
Catherine Bohart
I mean, I've heard the words Alexander Graham Bell.
[03:22]
Greg Jenner
Sure. And you'll hear them again.
[03:25]
Catherine Bohart
You know, I watch a lot of period dramas. I've seen a lot of Calling an Operator and yeah, I have some sense of that, but I don't have any sense of the science of it. I don't know how that worked. I'm assuming tin cans and string, is that right?
[03:39]
Greg Jenner
So what do you know? This is the. So what do you know? This is where I have a go at guessing what you, our loving listener, might know about today's subject.
[03:51]
Podcast Advertiser
And.
[03:51]
Greg Jenner
And like Catherine, you know what a phone is, but what about the phone's early history and invention? Maybe you've heard of Alexander Graham Bell like Catherine had. Maybe you've seen period movies where people are speaking to complicated looking contraptions and asking to speak to the operator. But was Bell really the first inventor? How did people react to this novel communication technology and what does it mean to get your wires crossed? Let's find out. Right, Catherine, Our big anniversary year was 1876, at least for our purposes. Okay, so we're going to rewind to before the telephone and get you up to speed on what came before. So how do you think people had previously communicated across long distances before the telephone? And of course, I'm going to discount sending post because that feels too easy.
[04:36]
Catherine Bohart
So presumably Morse code was a way of communicating over long distances.
[04:41]
Greg Jenner
Is that pigeons good?
[04:43]
Catherine Bohart
Yeah, pigeons were always pretty good, weren't they?
[04:45]
Greg Jenner
Yeah. Send a pigeon in the post.
[04:46]
Catherine Bohart
Yes. Is that kind of post yearning? I assume that one picked up that from that vibe wise. Yeah. Like looking out windows.
[04:56]
Greg Jenner
See, Right.
[04:57]
Catherine Bohart
That's what I'm assuming.
[04:58]
Greg Jenner
Right. Sort of some Wuthering Heights energy.
[05:00]
Catherine Bohart
Yeah. Sighing in a window seat, did that not convey your message afar?
[05:05]
Greg Jenner
I mean, sure. I mean if you're a great romantic, maybe it did.
[05:08]
Catherine Bohart
Yeah, I think I am.
[05:09]
Greg Jenner
Put your heartbreak into the ether and hope that they heard you. How did people communicate over long distances before we're into electricity?
[05:16]
Professor Johan Morris
The real answer is the electric telegraph. Beyond that really, information travels essentially as fast as you can. You can send a letter at exactly the same speed that you could go. If you went by horse carriage.
[05:30]
Greg Jenner
It would have taken weeks for news to reach from, months from Australia, weeks from Central Europe or America. And so. Yeah, and you're, I mean, so you're on obviously the telegraph machine. That is the crucial world changing technology, isn't it?
[05:43]
Professor Johan Morris
Yeah. From the beginning of the 19th century, people start trying to figure out, look, you know, we can do all sorts of interesting spectacular things, whether it looks with electricity, shocks, sparks, I mean all sorts of stuff. If you can get that to happen at a distance, then you have some kind of way of communication and that's what people are trying to do. In 1837 in the UK, in London, Charles Wheaston and William Fothergill cook take out what's the first patent for an electromagnetic telegraph. Basically a gizmo that allows you to send information at a distance pretty much at around about the same time south, the Atlantic. Samuel Morse invents his version of telegraph and in connection with that he invented the Morse code, that kind of system of dots and dashes that translates into letters of the Alphabet and allows you to send information that way. So by the end of the 40s being the 50s, telegraph lines proliferating across the UK, across Europe, across North America, typically following the railway lines. It's largely a kind of commercial tool conveying information about all sorts of commercial war stuff. It's kind of boring anyway, basically, as quickly as possible.
[07:00]
Catherine Bohart
Where's the gossip telegram? Oh my God.
[07:03]
Greg Jenner
Well, there's a chap called Mr. Reuters who set up a news agency because he realized, hang on a second, I can make some money on this.
[07:08]
Catherine Bohart
Okay, great.
[07:09]
BILT Advertiser
Really?
[07:09]
Greg Jenner
Yeah.
[07:10]
Catherine Bohart
I don't think of reuteries as my gossip rag anymore, but sure it's. But maybe I'll start to.
[07:15]
Greg Jenner
It's not quite pizzazz anymore, but yeah,
[07:17]
Professor Johan Morris
so that's not quite gossip stuff. Trying to get information more and more quickly. I mean, that's the telegraphic world of the 1860s, 1870s. That's where the telephone comes in.
[07:30]
Greg Jenner
And that's where we meet Alexander Graham Bell, who you mentioned, Catherine. Do you know where he was born? Do you know which country he was born in?
[07:36]
Whole Foods Market Advertiser
No.
[07:36]
Catherine Bohart
I mean, Bell, to me feels British, but maybe that's not true. I don't know.
[07:40]
Greg Jenner
British is correct, but it's not. Not England.
[07:43]
Catherine Bohart
Oh, is he a scar?
[07:44]
Greg Jenner
He is, yeah. Yeah. He's born in Scotland. He's born in Edinburgh, 1847. Ewan.
[07:49]
BILT Advertiser
His.
[07:49]
Greg Jenner
His family are interested in speech and sound because his mother is deaf and so he's interested in this sound technology for communication purposes.
[07:58]
Professor Johan Morris
Yes, absolutely. I mean, his mother is deaf. He comes, weirdly, from a family of Ilokushnitz people who teach you how to speak properly. That's the Bell background. His father, if I remember rightly, develops a kind of sign language that allows him to communicate with his wife. So Bell comes from a background that cares about speech, communication, conveying things in new ways. They go over to Canada and the States. Bell is a musician, he works as an elocutionist. He works with deaf people, communicating to the deaf, amongst other people. He teaches.
[08:43]
Greg Jenner
Well, he teaches a young. A young lady.
[08:46]
Professor Johan Morris
That's the point where I'm.
[08:47]
Greg Jenner
Mabel. Yeah, Mabel.
[08:49]
Professor Johan Morris
Mabel.
[08:49]
Greg Jenner
A young lady called Mabel, who's the daughter of. Called Gardener Hubbard. It's a good name, isn't it? Gardener Hubbard.
[08:55]
Catherine Bohart
Gardner Hubbard. Goodness me.
[08:57]
Greg Jenner
And Mabel is deaf. And lo and behold, Belle marries her sort of problematic marriage. Klaxon time, I think, because.
[09:03]
Professor Johan Morris
Yeah, but at least she's sort of the thing that we'd be allowed to do.
[09:06]
Greg Jenner
Yes, sorry. We've invested in that, this series. We spent some money. Me too.
[09:10]
Catherine Bohart
I'm surprised it took this long, honestly. Everything I know about history says you should have really been ready to go.
[09:15]
Greg Jenner
He did wait till she was after 18, which on this show is actually good.
[09:18]
Catherine Bohart
Pretty rare.
[09:19]
Greg Jenner
I mean, I know it's a low
[09:20]
Professor Johan Morris
bar, but, you know, I mean, late teens, always better than early teens. Can't help but feel.
[09:25]
Greg Jenner
So he had a deaf mother, deaf daughter, wife. He's quite a complicated, controversial character in the deaf community today because later on in life he argues against sign language. He's not a great hero, but we don't have time to talk about that so much, so I'll just sort of move on and say telegraphy is a sort of ancient Greek modern compound word meaning faraway. Writing Tele. Faraway. Graphy. Writing Telephony. Is far away sound. Is that what the new big exciting question mark is for Alexander Green Bell? How do you get sound across a. A long distance?
[09:55]
Professor Johan Morris
Yes, I mean, I think that's it exactly. There isn't really a very good way of doing that.
[10:02]
Catherine Bohart
Shouting, hello, I love yearning.
[10:05]
Greg Jenner
Yearning, I think is wonderful.
[10:06]
Catherine Bohart
What about yearning or screaming?
[10:10]
Professor Johan Morris
Yearning had limited market value.
[10:12]
Greg Jenner
I think probably disagree.
[10:14]
Catherine Bohart
Probably just talking about the BBC, the channel of yearning. All right.
[10:20]
Professor Johan Morris
There were things like the Enchanted Lyre. L Y R E. Not the lying sort. Invented by Charles Wheatstone, a telegraph chap round of 1860. Philip Rice invents what he calls a telephone.
[10:34]
Greg Jenner
So he invents the word telephone.
[10:35]
Professor Johan Morris
He invented the word telephone and he invented an instrument that could electrically transmit sound over a distance, but not voice.
[10:44]
Catherine Bohart
Is Rice getting like muffled sound even from speaking a voice? Is he getting like you're in a tunnel on a train noise? Is he getting.
[10:51]
Professor Johan Morris
You're just getting buzz.
[10:53]
Greg Jenner
So you're not putting your phone in rice yet. Hello? Hello? Hello? Anyone?
[10:56]
Catherine Bohart
No, I liked it.
[10:57]
Greg Jenner
Sorry. You know, two other big inventors we should mention? Have you ever heard of Elisha Gray or Antonio Meucci?
[11:03]
Catherine Bohart
No, but I'm hopeful that Elisha might has a chance of being a woman.
[11:08]
Greg Jenner
No.
[11:08]
Catherine Bohart
No. Okay. I was like, for a second, I was like, is it just Elijah? Is that basically what you're saying to me? Okay. No, I haven't heard of either of those other men.
[11:17]
Greg Jenner
They. The two big names I think that we can put up as co. Or rival inventors of the telephone alongside Bell.
[11:26]
Professor Johan Morris
Rival inventors, certainly from their individual.
[11:29]
Greg Jenner
Well, they're not collaborative, they're not allies.
[11:31]
Professor Johan Morris
Not collaborative.
[11:32]
Greg Jenner
Rivals.
[11:32]
Professor Johan Morris
Absolutely not.
[11:34]
Catherine Bohart
All three are rivals.
[11:35]
Greg Jenner
Yeah.
[11:36]
Catherine Bohart
Okay, so say their names to me again.
[11:37]
Greg Jenner
So Antonio Meucci is an Italian who I think moves to the States. I think, yes.
[11:41]
Professor Johan Morris
I mean, he moves to the States. He invents what he calls the teletrophone, if I remember right.
[11:49]
Greg Jenner
Beautiful teletrophone. Yeah, great.
[11:51]
Professor Johan Morris
Exactly. And takes out a patent in 1871. Or a caveat for a patent, that is to say a kind of promissory note. I haven't quite got there yet, but I'm laying dibs on this invention.
[12:03]
Greg Jenner
Placeholder.
[12:04]
Professor Johan Morris
I'm working on this when it emerges. Looking at accounts of Mochi's invention, there are some things that a telephone can do, but there are weird aspects as well. I mean, for example, according to Meucci, users have to be insulated. They have to stand on glass stools.
[12:25]
Catherine Bohart
Oh, totally reasonable expectation.
[12:28]
Professor Johan Morris
Everybody has glass stools lying around after
[12:31]
Catherine Bohart
all what level of simultaneousness is this occurring within the three of them?
[12:35]
Greg Jenner
This is 1871. So this is.
[12:37]
Professor Johan Morris
This is all pretty close.
[12:39]
Greg Jenner
He's the first to file in America a patent that we might say is telephonic. Fair.
[12:44]
Professor Johan Morris
Yes.
[12:44]
Catherine Bohart
Okay, but is it his patent or is it him going, no, just hang a fire again. I'm totally going to get the patent.
[12:49]
Greg Jenner
It is a case.
[12:50]
Professor Johan Morris
Well, mind you, a lot of what's going on is kind of a hanging fire. I'm not.
[12:53]
Greg Jenner
And also, he gutted Mayuchi. He's not made of money, this guy. He can't afford to keep the patent. It's another $10, isn't it?
[13:01]
Professor Johan Morris
Yes. I mean, I think the caveat lasts a few years, and then you've got to. Then you have to put your money down to keep it going. Yeah, it's 10 bucks. Mircha doesn't have 10 bucks. So the caveat lapses.
[13:12]
Catherine Bohart
Yeah, you have to put credit on your phone.
[13:14]
Greg Jenner
Yeah, that's crazy. Pay monthly on your patent.
[13:20]
Professor Johan Morris
So in the meantime, Elisha Gray. Gray is somebody who's made his money and is making his money out of developing new kind of variations, new improvements on telegraph technology. He patterns what's called a harmonic telegraph and a sound telegraph. So. Yeah.
[13:40]
Catherine Bohart
What year is that?
[13:41]
Greg Jenner
1874.
[13:42]
Professor Johan Morris
1874. And then in 1876, Bell goes, well, bing, essentially, and takes his stuff to the patent office and he gets his caveat on the patent to say, look, I can do this thing.
[13:57]
Greg Jenner
This is the famous case, right? Because technically, Gray's the first one through the door.
[14:02]
Professor Johan Morris
So Gray arrived first at the patent office, but what he submitted was a patent caveat. So not the full patent. An hour or so later, Bell turned up, or rather, Bell's lawyers turned up, and they submitted the full thing, the full patent application.
[14:18]
Greg Jenner
So Bell and Gray file on the same day, but Bell is awarded the patent.
[14:26]
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[14:53]
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[17:02]
Professor Johan Morris
up to
[17:02]
Greg Jenner
this point, I just want to say we've had telephone, we've had telautograph, we've had teletrophono, we've had harmonic telegraph. They're lovely words for this new technology. Catherine, given your creativity, if I had to ask you to rebrand the phone with a new name, what would you re dub? The technology of a phone man's best friend.
[17:19]
Catherine Bohart
Handy little helper.
[17:21]
Greg Jenner
Charming.
[17:22]
Catherine Bohart
Yeah.
[17:23]
Greg Jenner
So the legal battle literally went down to the wire. Gray didn't take that lightly. He filed legal actions. He tried to argue his case, but ultimately Bell was found to be the official winner. Whether he was the moral victor. Catherine, I'LL leave up to you.
[17:39]
Catherine Bohart
I think the lesson here is that boys should learn to work together. That's my lesson, is that actually they could have probably come up with it together earlier if they put their little brains together, but they decided to make it a competition, as they must, and look, look what happened.
[17:54]
Greg Jenner
We do know that Alexander Graham Bell does make the very first official telephone call. He demonstrates this by calling his assistant.
[18:02]
Catherine Bohart
Oh, he doesn't call Grey to be like, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah.
[18:05]
Greg Jenner
Is that what you would do?
[18:07]
Catherine Bohart
That's in my head what their vibe is.
[18:09]
Greg Jenner
Okay, but.
[18:10]
Catherine Bohart
Okay, so he calls his assistant.
[18:11]
Greg Jenner
He does, yes.
[18:13]
Catherine Bohart
Where is his assistant?
[18:15]
Greg Jenner
Well, that's not that far away.
[18:17]
Lowe's Advertiser
Yeah.
[18:18]
Professor Johan Morris
The assistant is in the next room.
[18:20]
Catherine Bohart
Oh, very good.
[18:22]
Professor Johan Morris
First known telephone messages. Mr. Watson, come here. I need you.
[18:26]
Greg Jenner
I want you. Isn't it? I want you.
[18:28]
Professor Johan Morris
I want you.
[18:29]
Lowe's Advertiser
Yes.
[18:30]
Greg Jenner
I feel that's quite heated rivalry.
[18:32]
Catherine Bohart
I want you. I need you.
[18:33]
Greg Jenner
Yeah.
[18:34]
Catherine Bohart
Also, Watts, with Watson's always getting relegated to second.
[18:37]
Greg Jenner
Yes. You always need a Mr. Watson as your assistant. I want you.
[18:41]
Professor Johan Morris
I want you.
[18:42]
Catherine Bohart
That is romantic. We finally got to yearning.
[18:47]
Greg Jenner
Electromagnetic yearning. Johan. Given that Bel could easily have just shouted into the next room. It hasn't really proved that this technology is effective over distance. It's proved that it's effective over 10 meters. So were people initially, you know, bedazzled by this invention or they're a bit like. Well, that's just a parlor trick.
[19:07]
Professor Johan Morris
If it's possible to be simultaneously bedazzled and unimpressed, then by and large, people are bedazzled and unimpressed.
[19:16]
Greg Jenner
Right.
[19:16]
Catherine Bohart
Yeah.
[19:17]
Professor Johan Morris
On the one hand.
[19:18]
Lowe's Advertiser
Wow.
[19:19]
Professor Johan Morris
The other part is, what do we do with this? This doesn't, for example, solve the problem of being able to send even more information even more quickly than telegraph lines, because voices aren't actually that efficient as means of quick communication. I mean, all those is a lot quicker, a lot more efficient than saying,
[19:42]
Greg Jenner
yes, Mr. Watson, come here, I need you.
[19:47]
Catherine Bohart
That's their issue. They're like, oh, great. So now we have to listen to you yap on. Is this. Well, we just want to get to the information.
[19:52]
Greg Jenner
I don't know. WhatsApp. Voice messages. They're basically mini podcasts now. I've got friends who leave five minute messages. It's like, come on, just send a text.
[19:59]
Catherine Bohart
This is such a male reaction to the opportunity to chat. I'm like, what are you talking about? How nice. Okay. So they just think inefficient.
[20:07]
Professor Johan Morris
So it's not quite clear what this amazing technological novelty Is for.
[20:12]
Greg Jenner
There are technical problems. Right. Buzzy, interference, noisy. There's an issue of crossed wires, which is quite a literal thing. The wires get crossed, yes.
[20:21]
Professor Johan Morris
Literally if wires brush up against each other.
[20:23]
Greg Jenner
So if two wires touch each other,
[20:25]
Professor Johan Morris
then the messages might get confused, go in different directions. Reception with early telephones really isn't that good. It's buzzy, it's crackly. There are problems of kind of being able to sort of discriminate noise from the background. There is the whole business of you talking to the operator and then the operator putting you through.
[20:48]
Greg Jenner
There's also the party line, isn't there?
[20:50]
Professor Johan Morris
Yes.
[20:50]
Greg Jenner
So a shared phone line.
[20:52]
Professor Johan Morris
Though, mind you, though mind you, party lines lasted for quite a long time. I can remember as a child in the 1970s.
[21:00]
Catherine Bohart
Yeah, sorry, what is a party line?
[21:02]
Professor Johan Morris
We were on a party line. You share the line with some of your neighbors. So if they're on the phone, you can't be on the phone, but you can hear.
[21:09]
Catherine Bohart
Can you hear what they're saying?
[21:10]
Greg Jenner
Yeah, yeah.
[21:12]
Catherine Bohart
Bring it back, Bring it back.
[21:14]
Greg Jenner
I was going to ask gently, Catherine, would you be interested in eavesdropping? And your reaction tells me perhaps, yeah,
[21:19]
Catherine Bohart
I mean, I wouldn't mind.
[21:20]
Greg Jenner
Bring it back.
[21:21]
Catherine Bohart
Are you joking? Bring it back. That's fantastic. Why would any. Does anyone ever get off the phone? I'd be like, I'm like, bring my meals to me.
[21:28]
Greg Jenner
Who needs podcasts? I'm just listening in to the neighbors.
[21:30]
Catherine Bohart
Marriott number nine is.
[21:32]
Greg Jenner
I'm making another call from 1878. This is a brand new invention, the switchboard. Why is this important?
[21:40]
Professor Johan Morris
As more and more people get phones, as more and more people on the network, then connecting people gets more difficult, more important, more complicated. So switchboards are a way of, to a degree, automating the business of kind of taking somebody's end and plugging it into somebody else's socket. Operating offices. Switchboards are entirely staffed by women. Before they started employing young women as telephone operators, they did try young men. After all, that was the history. Telegraph operators from the mid-1840s had typically been young men and they were typically a pretty raucous crew. And that kind of telegraph culture didn't really seem to work in the telephone exchange.
[22:33]
Catherine Bohart
Shocking.
[22:35]
Professor Johan Morris
But women are, you'll be astonished to know, docile, well mannered, they don't misbehave, they don't gossip, they don't do anything, they don't gossip.
[22:46]
Catherine Bohart
This is on track.
[22:47]
Greg Jenner
What are you doing?
[22:47]
Professor Johan Morris
Then they just sit there and they're obedient. They do as they're they're trusted.
[22:54]
Greg Jenner
Which is, you know, quite a rare thing in the 19th century for women to be given this level of trust in a commercial operation.
[22:59]
Professor Johan Morris
Actually, yes. I think this is an important new kind of employment for middle class young women.
[23:05]
Catherine Bohart
Yeah, it's huge.
[23:07]
Professor Johan Morris
This is an independent job, something that allows degrees of financial independence and feeds into that kind of late Victorian, wow. Technology of the future. I mean, it makes women like that, part of that kind of technological culture,
[23:23]
Greg Jenner
and they get a charming nickname. Do you know what the nickname is?
[23:26]
Catherine Bohart
Call girls. I want a better. I want a better name.
[23:29]
Greg Jenner
You're not far off. That's slightly inappropriate. Probably the hello girls.
[23:33]
Catherine Bohart
Hello girls. I love them.
[23:36]
Greg Jenner
That's from the 1880s. They're the hello girls. And initially you just say, can you just put my friend Jim on? And they'd be like, sure. And then obviously after a while, there's too many gems, and then they have to start asking you for actual details of the number. And the spread of the phone is really interesting. It spreads very quickly in America, so you get a very quick uptake in the States, it's really sort of popular in the cities. By 1882, there's a telephone for every 200 people in Chicago, which is amazing. In London, it's every 3,000 people. Now, I said the hello girls, which obviously is a charming thing. Do you know where the word hello comes from?
[24:09]
Catherine Bohart
No. No.
[24:11]
Greg Jenner
So it's the official telephone greeting.
[24:13]
Catherine Bohart
Okay.
[24:14]
Greg Jenner
And it's not the one Alexander Graham Bell wanted.
[24:17]
Catherine Bohart
Okay.
[24:18]
Greg Jenner
Do you know what he wanted?
[24:19]
Catherine Bohart
No.
[24:20]
Greg Jenner
I said at the beginning of the show, ahoy hoy.
[24:24]
Catherine Bohart
Are you joking? He wanted what? If you're in a bad mood, Ahoy hoy.
[24:31]
Greg Jenner
I'm very angry. Ahoy hoy.
[24:32]
BILT Advertiser
You can't.
[24:33]
Whole Foods Market Advertiser
No.
[24:33]
Catherine Bohart
What are you talking about?
[24:34]
Greg Jenner
Yeah, he wanted a hoi hoy.
[24:36]
Catherine Bohart
And what was hello? His reaction when he heard he didn't get it. Hell. Oh,
[24:41]
Greg Jenner
that's great.
[24:42]
Nick Robinson
Thank you.
[24:43]
Greg Jenner
That's really good.
[24:44]
Catherine Bohart
So where did hello come from? He said, ahoy hoy. What a weird rich boy.
[24:50]
Greg Jenner
Ewan, why. Why do we say hello on the telephone? Because it's one of the most popular words on the planet.
[24:55]
Professor Johan Morris
I mean, like a hoi hoy. It's distinct Hello.
[25:00]
Greg Jenner
Yeah.
[25:00]
Professor Johan Morris
It's a word that hopefully is going to kind of cut through. It's Thomas Edison's idea. If I remember rightly, it's Edison who suggests that hello would certainly be better than a hoy hoy as a form of greeting when you're communicating.
[25:14]
Greg Jenner
But they're both hailing words, aren't they? Ahoy hoy is what you say to a sailor when you're hailing them. And then hello, they're both. And in America, hello was a hailing word.
[25:22]
Professor Johan Morris
Hello, yes.
[25:23]
Greg Jenner
But in the uk, hello is a phrase of surprise. If I bumped into you on holiday, if the two of us were in the same cafe in Italy, we both like, hello. What are you doing here? So it was a word that existed
[25:34]
Catherine Bohart
already, just sort of to mask your disappointment at seeing a local on your one bloody holiday.
[25:38]
Greg Jenner
Bloody Bohart gets everywhere.
[25:40]
Catherine Bohart
It took us eight days on the boat. And here. Hello. Hello. I like it.
[25:45]
Greg Jenner
So hello becomes the official word because of Edison. He says it's got good, nice, clear. It cuts through the noise on the interference and it becomes one of the most popular words on the planet. And the hello girls are so named. Can you imagine, though, if we did a hoi hoy instead?
[25:59]
Catherine Bohart
No.
[26:00]
Greg Jenner
The Lionel Richie song Ahoy hoy. Is it me you're looking for? Just so many.
[26:05]
Catherine Bohart
I just can't bear to think how many boat shoes we'd have to be wearing.
[26:09]
Greg Jenner
I just think, ugh.
[26:10]
Catherine Bohart
It's just. I'm very glad it's not okay.
[26:12]
Professor Johan Morris
I just think the hoihoy Girls doesn't quite.
[26:14]
Greg Jenner
The hoihoy Girls. I'm bringing it back. I'm bringing it back.
[26:18]
Catherine Bohart
The hoihoy magazine.
[26:20]
Greg Jenner
Actually, there are plenty of concerns that were raised by this new technology arriving into people's homes and into towns and cities and buildings. So, Catherine, I've got a mini quiz for you. Here are seven things the Victorians feared might happen to society because of the telephone. Six are true. One I've made up. Can you guess which one I've made up? Let's go. Did people fear that women might commit adultery from home with the new technology of the phone? Men maybe would not stand up when phoning a woman. Were people fearing that there might be phone calls happening between people wearing their pajamas? There might be fears of lower class people phoning up posh people and harassing them on the phone. There might be fears that businessmen would hog the phone lines and women couldn't use the phone because it was so busy. There could be fears that telephones would invade domestic privacy. And of course, casual telephone speech. Little idle chit chat would destroy face to face manners and etiquette. So which of these complaints, worries, concerns was not a Victorian anxiety about the phone?
[27:16]
Catherine Bohart
They all seem like pretty Victorian anxieties. Perhaps I'm inclined towards pajamas. Is that maybe.
[27:26]
Greg Jenner
What's your thinking behind that it's the
[27:28]
Catherine Bohart
pajamas or the sitting down one. They just seem even more parodied, like have a parody of themselves. But they all seem like they'd be worried about it. I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go sitting down.
[27:37]
Greg Jenner
Okay, well, I'm afraid you are wrong. They were worried. They thought. But if men are sitting down on the phone, that's wildly inappropriate. They should stand to speak to a woman.
[27:45]
Catherine Bohart
Oh, for goodness.
[27:46]
Greg Jenner
And the pajamas thing too. What if they weren't wearing trousers on the phone?
[27:49]
Catherine Bohart
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that track.
[27:50]
Greg Jenner
No, the one that was a lie. I said businessmen would hog the phone lines and women wouldn't be able to get on the phone. Exact opposite problem. Their fear was that women would gossip on the phones and men couldn't do business. Katherine.
[28:03]
Catherine Bohart
Well, if the resource is finite, that's a reasonable concern, I think, but. Okay, fair enough. That's the made up one. Good for you.
[28:10]
Greg Jenner
The Nuance Window. Well, it's been, it's been a fascinating chat, but it is time now for the Nuance Window. This is the part of the show where Catherine and I quietly eavesdrop on the party line for two minutes while Professor Yuan tells us something we need to know about the history of the early telephone. My stopwatch is ready. Take it away.
[28:33]
Professor Johan Morris
Professor Morris, we've been talking about the telephone invented in 1876. I want to tell you about another invention that took place almost at the same time as the telephone. It's revealing and it's important because it tells us a lot, I think, about what the telephone meant to the Victorians. Almost as soon as the telephone was invented, people started talking about this other new invention that hadn't quite been invented yet, but was going to be invented. Really, Honest, gov, any second now. This was the telektroscope. The telectroscope essentially was going to be telephone with vision. So you get wonderful cartoons in punch of Matron Pater sitting in their Victorian parlor talking to their kids, playing tennis somewhere far out in the colonies. And it's always on the cusp of being invented. Throughout the 80s, throughout the 90s, it's always just about to be invented and obviously it never is. But what I think is fascinating about that is what it shows us about the telephone and what the telephone meant. It's the future. I mean, that's what all of those sorts of technologies meant to the Victorians because they were starting to think about the future and understand the future basically the way that we do. It's that destination we're going to get to. With big tech, with technology, things like the telephone and the telectroscope was the next big thing on their horizon. That was going to be the technological future.
[30:04]
Greg Jenner
Amazing. Thank you so much. They basically invented zoom.
[30:07]
Catherine Bohart
Well, all I could think about as you were talking was the Simpsons, where in the future they always had televisions that you could see each other on. And that was like a hundred years later in the 90s of us being like, get real. But like, yeah, that's so interesting.
[30:21]
Professor Johan Morris
Never happened.
[30:22]
Greg Jenner
Listener. If you want more from Catherine, of course, she's done many episodes with us, including a fan favorite, Granja o', Malley, Irish pirate Queen, and of course, the history of general elections, which was very interesting too. For more electrical history from Professor Yuan, there's our episode on Vital Electricity with Olga Koch. That was surprisingly violent. If you've enjoyed the podcast, please share the show with your friends. Subscribe to youo Dead to me on BBC Sounds in the UK to hear new episodes 28 days earlier than anywhere else. And if you're outside the UK, you can listen@BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. I'd just like to say a huge thank you to our guests. In History Corner we had the incredible Professor Johan Morris from the University of Aberystwyth. Thank you, Johan.
[31:00]
Professor Johan Morris
Thank you. It's been a pleasure.
[31:01]
Greg Jenner
It has. We've had a lot of fun. And in Comedy Corner we had the brilliant Kathryn Bohart. Thank you, Katharine.
[31:07]
Catherine Bohart
Thank you for having me. Am I allowed to plug my futuristic special that's on the Internet?
[31:12]
Greg Jenner
Yeah, go for it.
[31:13]
Catherine Bohart
How exciting. I just put my most recent show on YouTube and it's called Again with Feelings. And if you like a nosy hello girl, then I'm very much that. And I'm gabbing some gossip.
[31:23]
Greg Jenner
Perfect. There we go. Go watch it. And to you, lovely listener, join me next time as we search through the phone book for another neglected historical topic. But for now, I'm off to go and make Ahoy Hoy, the official greeting for podcast. Come on.
[31:34]
Catherine Bohart
Never.
[31:35]
Professor Johan Morris
Bye.
[31:45]
Nick Robinson
Hello, I'm Nick Robinson. You might be tired of switching on the news, hearing those pre rehearsed sound bites, the lines to take from those who shape our lives. When politics is as fragmented, as unpredictable, as fraught as it is now, it can be hard to cut through the noise. That is precisely my aim on political thinking, my podcast from BBC Radio 4. I have extended conversations with those who shape our political thinking. I try to get to the heart of what makes these people tick, what lies behind what you're seeing. Or hearing on the news. That's political thinking with me, Nick Robinson. You can listen on BBC Sounds.
[32:27]
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[33:33]
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