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Russell Cain

Bryson Tiller presents the Neo Trap Soul Tour live across North America with special guests Majid Jordan, Ty Dolla Sign and Austin Mills in select cities. Get tickets Friday, June 5th at LiveNation. Do.

Greg Jenner

Hello and welcome to youo're Dead To Me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name's Greg Jenner, I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster. And today we are grabbing our maths textbooks and frolicking back to the 4th century to Egypt to learn all about mathematician and philosopher Hypatia of Alexandria. And to help us, we have one terrific teacher and one sublime student. In History Corner she's Professor of Classics and at Durham University you might have heard her on Natalie Haynes Stands up for the Classics or Great lives on BBC Radio 4. Maybe you've read one of her many books including Aristotle's How Ancient Wisdom can Change your Life and Facing down the Furies. And you'll know her from our episodes on Pythagoras, the Triangle Guy and Aristotle, it's Professor Edith Hall. Welcome back, Edith.

Professor Edith Hall

Hello, I'm thrilled to be here.

Greg Jenner

Delighted to have you back. And in Comedy Corner, she's comedian, writer and actor. You'll have seen her on mock the week, QI, Frankie Boyle's new world order, late night mash, or you've heard her co hosting the BBC's funny technology podcast Human Error Made. Maybe you've seen her award nominated stand up show Olga Cock Comes from Money. And you'll definitely remember her from our episodes on Ivan the Terrible and vital electricity. It's Olga Koch. Welcome back, Olga.

Olga Koch

Thank you so much for having me.

Greg Jenner

Delighted to have you here, Olga. Previously on the show, you said that your history knowledge is basically all the American presidents, and that's it. Yeah.

Olga Koch

I mean, the thing is, even that was lying. I think maybe half of them are lies.

Greg Jenner

Okay, okay. I was gonna ask you, who's the 12th American president?

Olga Koch

Oh, fourth?

Greg Jenner

Twelfth? Oh, God. Never mind.

Olga Koch

John Adams is somewhere in there.

Greg Jenner

He's quite early, let's be honest.

Olga Koch

Is he earlier than fourth?

Greg Jenner

Yeah.

Olga Koch

Is he second?

Greg Jenner

Yeah. Oh, boy.

Olga Koch

This is bad. This is bad. Shut it down.

Greg Jenner

Okay. You are doing a PhD right now?

Professor Edith Hall

Yes.

Olga Koch

Crucially, not in history. I would like your listeners to know.

Greg Jenner

But you're a woman in stem, right?

Professor Edith Hall

Yes.

Greg Jenner

So proudly, so good. So have you heard of Hypatia of Alexandria?

Olga Koch

If I'm being completely honest, I only found out that she was a mathematician, and I want to say 30 seconds ago, this is going to be a very, very fun episode, if anything, just for me.

Greg Jenner

So what do you know? Well, that brings us to the first segment of the podcast, which is the so, what do you know? This is where I have a go at guessing what you, our lovely listener, might know about today's subject. You might know from the introduction, like, Olga has just discovered that Hypatia was a philosopher and mathematician. She's a bigger name in recent years than thanks to the 2009 film Agora starring Rachel Weisz. But you may also know Hypatia from a 1987 episode of Doctor who where she's one of several geniuses kidnapped to build a super brain. I did not see that episode. I've not seen any episodes of Doctor who, but what's the truth?

Olga Koch

It's really not on brand for you at all.

Greg Jenner

I know I give off real Doctor who energy, but I've never seen it. But what's the truth behind the dramatic Hollywood Hypatia? How much of a genius was she really? And what on earth is a conic section? Let's find out. Right, Professor Edith. When we did our Pythagoras episode, it turned out we couldn't trust anything written about him by anyone. A lot of fun, but not hugely helpful. Are we on firmer historical ground with Hypatia of Alexandria?

Professor Edith Hall

We are. We are on slightly firmer.

Greg Jenner

You immediately caveat it.

Professor Edith Hall

Yeah, slightly firm historical ground because we've got two sources that are approximately contemporary with her, as well as one or two that are quite a lot later. So we've actually Got some letters by a guy called Synesius of Cyrene who was some kind of student or acolyte of hers, Cyrenes in Libya. So this is, we're talking about the North African Greek intellectual diaspora. He seems to have absolutely adored her, wanted to send her his work and his ideas. She doesn't seem to have answered very much. At some point stopped contacting him. But the respect he holds her in is very indicative.

Greg Jenner

Okay, so Synesius of Cyrene, what a name. He's a bit of a fanboy. Olga, you are an expert in reply guys.

Olga Koch

Wow, what a swerve. I like that.

Greg Jenner

Are you on firm historical territory here? This is the psychology of people who write back.

Olga Koch

I guess so. It's very interesting. So basically my master's was about reply guys, which are a catch all slang term for men who I guess incessantly respond to women who don't act like they exist on the Internet in a sort of very casual and very, I guess like buddy buddy fashion. That's overly familiar. This guy kind of recontextualizes it. It's not a modern phenomenon. It's been around.

Greg Jenner

What other sources do we have for Hypatia? We have the, the letters of her fanboy Sinesius, and we have the biography

Professor Edith Hall

by Socrates the scholar. Another guy called Damascus who wrote a life of another Neoplatonist in which she has some interesting stuff, really more about the culture of Alexandria where she, she, she grew up. And we've got the amazingly horrible John of Nicu who is a 7th century Coptic bishop and he wrote a world history, mansplaining history for everybody. And his, his paragraph on Hypatia is very important because it reflects what people like him thought of her.

Greg Jenner

Okay.

Professor Edith Hall

And that is that she is a seductress, a high class sex worker who beguiles people.

Greg Jenner

Whoa.

Professor Edith Hall

With witchcraft. We've got a text that reflects what people were shouting.

Olga Koch

Solve one quadratic equation and all of a sudden I'm a witch. Yeah, yeah.

Professor Edith Hall

Yes.

Olga Koch

Right.

Greg Jenner

Before we get to Hypatia herself, let's talk about the world she was born into. We've previously done an episode in the previous series about the city of Alexandria in Egypt for Olga's benefit. Edith, can you give us a quick rundown of life in late 4th century Alexandria, this amazing city of learning.

Professor Edith Hall

It is a city which has had the very famous library and several other libraries and museums attached to it. It's a university city. It's still the greatest university in the whole of the Greco Roman world, but it's multi ethnic to an extraordinary degree and has had a history of huge liberalism about that. But you've also, because of the particular point in history, in the 490s, the first really harsh edicts from the new Christian emperors were coming out. 391 is the edict of Theodosius that all pagan temples have to be shut down.

Greg Jenner

Right.

Professor Edith Hall

So she comes into the world. She's born between 350 and 370 AD CE. The exact point as she's reaching adulthood.

Greg Jenner

Yeah.

Professor Edith Hall

Where being an old pagan philosopher is beginning to become a very dangerous thing to be.

Greg Jenner

But she's a pagan, which means she worships multiple gods.

Professor Edith Hall

Yes. I don't think she did worship multiple gods because she's actually a Neoplatonist pagan. So what happened to her?

Greg Jenner

Come on. Obviously it's very important. I know, sorry.

Professor Edith Hall

So while there's a sort of notional acceptance of the pagan pantheon, I don't think she had any kind of real faith or prayer life to gods because she believes in this Neoplatonist model of the universe, which is that all of the physical world that we can see around us, everything, our bodies, the environment, nature, anything made out of matter, is a second rate copy of the eternal oneness of the world of ideas.

Greg Jenner

Yeah.

Olga Koch

Oh, my yoga teacher thinks the same as.

Professor Edith Hall

Right, a lot of people do.

Greg Jenner

So let's talk about her childhood very briefly. You said she's born somewhere in the 350s, 370s. Olga, how do you think a young woman like Hypatia got into maths in the ancient world?

Olga Koch

Well, she was a pagan, so I guess she started out by counting the

Greg Jenner

gods one to 12. What's your inkling? How do you think a young woman gets into math at that point in history?

Olga Koch

Oh my God. She lets a man explain it to her. Was it part of of like a curriculum in school?

Professor Edith Hall

What she taught actually was part of her university curriculum. No, she's a Nepo baby.

Olga Koch

Of course. I mean, I wasn't gonna say her dad, but we were all thinking.

Professor Edith Hall

And her dad is called Theon. Theon, which just means godly. And he is kind of head of the maths department at the library and museum. He is the professor of maths in Alexandria. No son is mentioned. We know nothing about any other member of the family. No mother is mentioned, no sister is mentioned. It's highly likely if he only had one kid and it was a girl. We. There are several instances of this in antiquity where men sort of politely forgot that there was no Y chromosome and actually trained up the daughter as an apprentice. I mean, that's gone on throughout history. We actually know of four other women who were around in the fourth century. One actually, in Alexandria.

Olga Koch

Four whole women.

Greg Jenner

Four whole women. Count them. That's a lot.

Olga Koch

We have confirmation of four women.

Professor Edith Hall

There was a mathematician, a good one, called Pandrosion, which is a beautiful name. It actually means all moist, like the morning dew. Then we've got one over at Pergamon, which is the other, the second biggest library, which is on the west coast of Turkey. We've got somebody else in Athens who's another Neoplatonist. So she isn't alone.

Greg Jenner

But Hypatia is effectively treated as a son, almost by her dad. I believe so, and he's called Theon. What does Hypatia mean?

Professor Edith Hall

Hypatia is such a weird. That's a sort of Victorian pronunciation.

Greg Jenner

Yeah, I was going to say this.

Professor Edith Hall

Oh, Hypatia. It means the very highest, up the summit, the pinnacle of excellence.

Greg Jenner

Wow.

Professor Edith Hall

Just the very top pressure. No pressure. You know, the topmost. It's just from the Greek word hypsos, which means elevation.

Greg Jenner

That's amazing.

Olga Koch

I like that a lot.

Greg Jenner

What does Olga mean?

Olga Koch

I don't want to talk about it. No, it's actually short for oligarch, to be clear. That's a joke.

Greg Jenner

Okay, so we have Patia sort of taking on her dad's school job. He's the teacher, he's the math professor at the Library of Alexandria. She takes the role on what would be on the course that she's teaching

Professor Edith Hall

there would be Neoplatonist philosophy.

Greg Jenner

Sure.

Professor Edith Hall

So how do we think about the material world? How do we think about the one, the unity? That will have been introduced actually by a version of Aristotle's logic. It's kind of a synthesis, a bit of Stoicism in there. Because the way to achieve union with the One intellectually and psychologically, as actually by a mild form of asceticism. You've got to live quite a disciplined life physically. You cannot do self indulgence. It's got a monastic hint, but it's not actually in any way religious. It's all about the self and self discipline. Then there will have been maths, there'll have been Euclidean maths, there'll have been optics and there'll have been astronomy. So basically all the fields in which you can apply maths.

Olga Koch

I mean, she sounds busy. She didn't have time to respond to fan mail.

Professor Edith Hall

They didn't do stats. Statistics, because that's a Latin word.

Greg Jenner

Oh, well, that's Romans for you, isn't it? The Romans, they love data.

Professor Edith Hall

Exactly.

Olga Koch

No spreadsheets in Alexandria. Confirmed.

Greg Jenner

Okay, so Hypatia, or how did you pronounce it? That sounds slightly like your sort of. I don't know, it feels slightly like you're tripping over it. It's almost like you're sort of falling down the staircase.

Professor Edith Hall

It's very pretty. And green.

Greg Jenner

It's beautiful. So Hypatia is mostly teaching men?

Professor Edith Hall

Yes.

Greg Jenner

Are there any women in her class?

Professor Edith Hall

I very much doubt it. We can't. I cannot tell you that for a fact, but usually our source is saying that the museion, the museum, which is the. The big library where the teaching goes on, did not admit women. So she seems to be quite exceptional. And I'm sure that if she'd actually got married, she wouldn't have been allowed in. You know, I think it's this sort of. She's sort of a virgin who doesn't have anything to do with sex. So she's like a pagan high priestess.

Olga Koch

Oh, and she stays that way throughout her entire life?

Professor Edith Hall

As far as we know, yeah.

Olga Koch

Oh, my God.

Greg Jenner

Wow. So she's a virgin and a mathlete. Cliche confirmed. Harsh. Sorry. Sorry. Mathletes. Olga, how do you imagine the student teacher relationship going if she's got a class of men who are expecting to learn from men, and here's this woman teaching them.

Olga Koch

Honestly, guys, I don't know. I feel like, first of all, it would stink. Okay, let's just throw that there. A bunch of young boys in one room, unventilated. That place stunk. I can tell you this much. All right. Also, deodorant hadn't been invented. From what I can gather, links.

Greg Jenner

North Africa. Yeah,

Olga Koch

yeah. So I think it would be a lot of disciplining. And I bet they would all keep falling for her. She would be the only woman in the. In the university. So they'd be like, I guess you're the one. There's no other chicks.

Greg Jenner

Ding, ding, ding. D I think.

Olga Koch

I think that's true.

Professor Edith Hall

Well, there is a story, which I'm absolutely sure is apocryphal. But that one student who was so love lorn that he kept harassing her to try to get her to go out with him. And it said that she threw a soaking sanitary pad at him.

Olga Koch

Queen.

Professor Edith Hall

And said, that's what you're in love with. Like my physical body.

Olga Koch

Oh, my God, I love that.

Professor Edith Hall

What you should be after is the true love of the One ideal form of beauty. Not this material copy.

Olga Koch

She probably would have proved her point better if he didn't absolutely love getting a pad thrown at him, I can guarantee you that.

Greg Jenner

So she's got a student who's in love with her, she chucks a sanitary towel at his head. HR surely had words there because you can't do that. But that's an interesting sort of comeback.

Olga Koch

I bet all the other boys were like, can I have one? I'm telling you.

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Greg Jenner

Who says renting can't feel like home.

Professor Edith Hall

Make your rental feel like yours.

Olga Koch

It all starts with one scroll.

Greg Jenner

Download TikTok to discover easy home decor ideas. She's got. Her fans and her students sort of seem to really admire her. What does she contribute to mathematics? You know, her father had been the great teacher at the school. Does she add new knowledge? Is she as great a mathematician as perhaps Hollywood would like her to be?

Professor Edith Hall

Probably not that original. She was an expert expounder of complicated mathematical ideas. She wrote big commentary books. This was the great age of commentaries on Euclid's elements, on a guy called Diophantus who wrote the treatise on arithmetic that everybody did. Probably on Ptolemy's Almagest, almost certainly on Archimedes, who was one of the greatest, you know, mechanical engineers.

Olga Koch

Okay, sounds like she was a reply girl.

Greg Jenner

Yeah.

Professor Edith Hall

But her own contribution seems to have been of development again of somebody else. A guy called Apollonius had written a Book on conic sections.

Greg Jenner

Oh, my favorite.

Professor Edith Hall

She does seem to have advanced how you measure cones or how cones exist. Something to do with cutting through the curving surface that goes round to measure it by doing some sort of intersection. It's not completely clear. I have tried this with an ice cream cone myself.

Olga Koch

Well, sometimes it's important that it's this development in these commentaries actually make the original work more relevant. Like nobody really cared who Shakespeare was and then 10 things I hate about you came out and then people sort of started getting it. So I don't think we should underestimate her contribution.

Professor Edith Hall

No, she was genuinely held to have said something completely original about cones. And she was also set to just be a really charismatic, brilliant communicator of this.

Greg Jenner

She's an amazing teacher. Right. You know, her students love her and

Professor Edith Hall

that is an enormous gift to be able to express very complicated ideas in very simple ways.

Greg Jenner

Hypatia is quite well renowned, so much so that several things have been named after her. There's a Hypatia asteroid belt, There's a Hypatia butterfly, There's a Hypatia crater on the moon. So she's getting her retrospective acclaim now. Oh, yes. You know, we are now happy to acknowledge Hypatia as one of sort of the big brains of the ancient world.

Professor Edith Hall

Well, she's the first woman in stem.

Olga Koch

Well, there you go. What was the criticism? What is it that they hated about her writing or her conduct?

Professor Edith Hall

The Roman Empire is trying to go Christian and people who taught pagan philosophy, so things like Neoplatonism, which told you to question everything and do scientific explanations for things. So you were going to explain comets as something to do with something that's going on mechanically in the universe, not as a sign from God. This represents an incredible obstacle to converting the population to proper Christianity. So she became a figurehead for like, the resistance to the newly converted emperors.

Olga Koch

Oh, my God. So in a way, her neo pagan views were more progressive than the Christian, falsely.

Greg Jenner

So Hypatia is obviously around in the kind of mid to late three hundreds, and Christianity had been arriving in the Roman Empire earlier than that. And it taken 60, 70, 80 years to sort of become the official religion. And a bit of a pushback. And then, you know, but in here we are in Alexandria, in Egypt, and we've got damage to pagan temples, we've got real physical changes, we've got tensions and we get the arrival of a new person called Cyril. But before Cyril, there's someone else important we should mention.

Olga Koch

Yes.

Professor Edith Hall

So between 391, when the Sarapan was destroyed and the Nicene Creed was officially set up as what you have to believe in if you were a Christian. One of the reasons I think that Hypatia was able to survive and carry on teaching for at least another 20 years was that the patriarch, that means the bishop, Christian Bishop of Alexandria, was a guy who was quite sympathetic to her and open minded. Called Theophilus.

Greg Jenner

Yeah.

Professor Edith Hall

So for 20 years she was under the protection of that bishop and he wasn't going to let all the fanatics close down.

Greg Jenner

So he's a Christian, but he's quite open minded and tolerant of a science

Professor Edith Hall

and there were plenty of those.

Greg Jenner

Yeah.

Professor Edith Hall

What happened in 412 is that a very different character got to be the bishop after Theophilus died and he is called Cyril.

Greg Jenner

Yeah.

Professor Edith Hall

He only gets into that position by beating up another guy called Timotheus. You know, there's a huge amount of

Olga Koch

riot the Christian way.

Professor Edith Hall

Yeah. But Alexandria had actually for several hundred years been known as the, the riot city. I mean they do like rioting in Alexandria. So it's all, almost any excuse for a riot. So there were lots of fights and riots and bloodshed before Cyril even got in. So I think he's already slightly paranoid.

Greg Jenner

Okay.

Professor Edith Hall

Before he even gets in, he wants to secure his power base. Things then heat up even further because a new governor appointed by the Roman Empire who's a secular governor.

Greg Jenner

Yeah.

Professor Edith Hall

Comes in who's actually a Greek. All these people are Greek even though they're in the Roman Empire called Orestes. As in the Greek mythical figure. Yeah, he just happens to be called Orestes. And that is, it's, it's the face off between Cyril and Orestes that poor Hypatia is caught. Both of these guys were very, were ruthless. She gets caught in the crossfire and

Greg Jenner

we start to get violence in the city and we get Cyril and Orestes, you know, they're starting to be on opposite sides of mob violence. Right. And some of this mob violence targets Jews, some of it targets Christians, some of it target pagans. You know, everyone's getting hurt.

Professor Edith Hall

Exactly.

Olga Koch

So we're thinking, is it modern terms? It's like if the mayor of Rome and the Pope had mobs.

Greg Jenner

Yeah.

Olga Koch

Okay.

Greg Jenner

It's almost. Yeah, it's. I guess governor of Egypt is a sort of bigger job. I suppose it's kind of. He's ruling a big old chunk of land. But yeah, but the Bishop of. Yeah, it's.

Professor Edith Hall

And the Christians were very, very, very Anxious to.

Olga Koch

Sorry. Mayor of Los Angeles and Tom Cruise.

Greg Jenner

A much better analogy.

Professor Edith Hall

Yes. Both arrestes. And Cyril wanted to be the top guy.

Greg Jenner

Right.

Olga Koch

Okay. In.

Professor Edith Hall

In Alexandria and Cyril basically won. Cyril starts bringing in various different groups of thugs. Really? One is his Nietzsche monks. Then he gets the parrot Bolani. The people who risk their lives. They're really weird because they start off as the. A group of Christian paramedics.

Greg Jenner

Right.

Olga Koch

Incredible.

Professor Edith Hall

They are paramedics who were supposed to do things like take old people into old people's homes and take people back from hospitals and protect. But they also serve that sort of. Under Cyril. But they also serve as his private bodyguard. His bouncers.

Greg Jenner

Wow.

Professor Edith Hall

His kind of mafioso thugs.

Greg Jenner

Those two jobs do not normally go together. Olga.

Olga Koch

Well, people don't know. But the entirety of the KGB is trained in first aid and how not

Professor Edith Hall

to give it the exact process we don't understand by which the enmity against Orestes got transferred to Hypatia.

Olga Koch

Where does she.

Greg Jenner

I was gonna say for five minutes you've been talking. We haven't mentioned her once. But no. But no. It's a good point. Like where is she in all this? Wait.

Olga Koch

Does the parabolani have something to do with this?

Professor Edith Hall

Orestes really likes her. He likes Neoplatonic philosophy. The kind of Alexandria in his vision is precisely the one where she is going to be this dominant intellectual force and help keep everything open and progressive. And the old Alexandria of intellectual culture is not replaced by a fanatical primitive Christian theocracy.

Greg Jenner

Yeah.

Professor Edith Hall

I mean that is what we're talking huge issue. But the hate people said she had. This is where my Coptic bishop from later on comes in useful. They said she had beguiled him sexually and enchanted the governor of. Of the empire with her witchcraft, which

Olga Koch

is literally her doing. Two plus two equals four. And he's going.

Professor Edith Hall

The hatred for her was so much that it did lead to her being assaulted by the parabolani.

Olga Koch

Oh man.

Greg Jenner

So the kind of the paramedics turn into paramilitary.

Professor Edith Hall

Yeah.

Greg Jenner

Blimey.

Professor Edith Hall

Different explanations have been offered for exactly how the government got so. The secular government under Orestes got so associated with her. But it was.

Greg Jenner

So they're. They're executing and punishing and torturing their enemies. Both of them? Yeah. Okay. And so.

Olga Koch

So did parabolani kill Hypatia?

Professor Edith Hall

Yes. They either arrested her while she was actually teaching or pulled her out of her chariot or vehicle as she was driving to or from her teaching post and took her to into a church which had been A temple, I think, of Zeus and had been converted into the cathedral and killed her.

Greg Jenner

She's caught up in this violence. That's in no way her fault. She's not incited it. She hasn't joined a side. She's just been teaching in her.

Professor Edith Hall

We have no evidence for that whatsoever, that she had any political interest. She obviously wanted the multi ethnic and open society. But it was the ire, the rage, that Orestes seems to have managed to get aroused in Cyril and the Christians. Orestes then disappears off the.

Greg Jenner

Yeah, I was gonna say. What happened to the end?

Professor Edith Hall

Well, there is no more word of him. He stops being governor. Somebody else comes in as governor. And maybe people said that he had screwed up.

Greg Jenner

Sure.

Professor Edith Hall

Maybe he was actually genuinely upset and thought, this is nowhere to, you know. We don't know very much about him, Sky. What we know most about is Cyril, who went on to be one of the most successful bishops and early Christians of all time, was involved in all the most famous theological disputes and was even made a saint.

Greg Jenner

Yes.

Olga Koch

Oh, come on. Wait, so this was the beginning of the end, right? So, like, from this moment on, it became more and more conservatively Christian, right?

Professor Edith Hall

Yeah. Oh, boy.

Greg Jenner

So Cyril becomes a saint and then you said that Hypatia becomes a sort of martyr to philosophy. Later, she's.

Professor Edith Hall

I think she's a secular saint. She becomes a very important representative for both women in science and free thinking.

Greg Jenner

That's amazing. What a life. I mean, Olga, do you think Hypatia deserves her role as, you know, the first woman in stem? Are you happy with that title?

Olga Koch

Yes, absolutely. Good. That was just so, so deeply, deeply sad. I don't have anything for you.

Greg Jenner

No, but we do know her better, so we do get to celebrate her. And that's, you know, it's worth discussing her. And thank you for that. And yeah, it's a very sad end, but extraordinary life, I think. The nuance wind. Time now for the nuance window. This is where Olga and I sit silently doing our geometry homework while Professor Edith stands at the front of the class and tells us something we need to know about Hypatia. So my stopwatch is ready. You have two minutes. Take it away.

Professor Edith Hall

Professor Edith, there's something else other than craters on the moon that have been named after Hypatia. And this is the Hypatia stone. The Hypatia stone was discovered in 1996 by an Egyptian geologist. He discovered it in what are called the Libyan Glass, parts of the Sahara. Now, Libyan glass is some Sort of strange meteorite type, sort of mineral that looks like glass. He was researching that and he came across a small, very, very rough, craggy looking stone, only about 1.3 inches in diameter. Tiny little sparkly diamonds in it. And, and it has been tested now. It's been sent by people in Los Angeles universities and in South Africa, Johannesburg. This stone's mineral makeup is so extraordinary that it means it's almost certainly made formed before our solar system. It is quite extraordinary. Now, he wanted it, the geologist who found it wanted it called after Hypatia, which is very sweet because as an Egyptian scientist, he saw himself as descendant. He didn't name it an Arabic name, he named it this tradition of the Library of Alexandria. But just imagine this tiny stone and I've seen lots of different pictures of it. Unfortunately, the scientists have cut it into bits, so it's even smaller. To examine it, this means that it's more than 4.6 billion years old. It was formed at 198 minus 198 degrees centigrade or colder in a supernova.

Greg Jenner

That's amazing. Beautiful, isn't it?

Olga Koch

She's timeless.

Greg Jenner

I feel that Hypatia, the eternal idea, the eternal constant in the solar system, that's, I mean, pretty good to be 4 point, what was it, 4.2 billion, 4.6 billion.

Olga Koch

I think she'd like it too because she liked stars and stuff. If I have one takeaway that she likes all that stuff, but it's kind

Professor Edith Hall

of union with the one. Yeah, it came from outer space for our galaxy.

Greg Jenner

Thank you, Olga. Thank you so much, Edith Listener. If you're in the mood for more ancient philosophers with Edith, check out our episodes on Aristotle and Pythagoras. He's more than just a triangle guy, he's quite the life. And to hear more from Olga, of course you can listen to our episodes on Ivan the Terrible. He was terrible, by the way. He really was.

Olga Koch

That's confirmed. Terrible.

Greg Jenner

Confirmed all. The episode on Vital Electricity, which is an absolute hoot. And remember, if you've enjoyed the podcast, please share the show with your friends. Subscribe to youo're Dead to me on BBC Sounds to hear new episodes 28 days earlier than anywhere else. And if you're outside the UK, you can listen@BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. Now, I'd just like to say a huge thank you to our guests in History Corner. We had the excellent Professor Edith hall from University of Durham. Thank you, Edith.

Professor Edith Hall

Thank you. I had a riot. Very fitting.

Greg Jenner

And in Comedy Corner, we had the outstanding Olga Cock. Thank you, Olga.

Olga Koch

Thank you very, very, very much.

Greg Jenner

And to you, lovely listener, join me next time as we solve another forgotten historical equation. But for now, I'm off to go and beg Rachel Weisz to play me in a movie.

Olga Koch

Bye.

Professor Edith Hall

That would be good.

Russell Cain

Attention animal lovers, haters and undecideds. A little birdie, a tit told me that you're looking for a podcast, just like Evil Genius, but without all those stupid humans. I'm Russell Cain, waddling onto your feed and squawking about my show, Evil Animals. Every episode I'm joined by two human guests, or as I like to call them, ex monkeys, passing judgment on all the creepiest crawlies and the biggest elephants in the room, our vampire bats, terrifying giant mosquitoes, our bottlenose dolphins, sex obsessed savages. And we're going there domestic cats. Evil or genius? Pig out on Evil Animals in the Evil Genius podcast feed. First on BBC Sounds.

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